Podcast Summary: The Interview (BBC World Service)

Episode: Justin Welby (former Archbishop of Canterbury): I forgive serial abuser John Smyth
Date: March 31, 2025
Host: Laura Kunzberg

Overview

This deeply personal and unflinching conversation features Justin Welby, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, who discusses his resignation following a damning abuse scandal in the Church of England. The episode focuses on Welby’s reflections on institutional and personal failure regarding the John Smyth abuse case, broader challenges around safeguarding and church culture, his views on forgiveness, and his future aspirations post-tenure.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Resignation and Responsibility

• Why did you resign?
  Welby says he left out of a profound sense of both personal and institutional responsibility for failures to address church abuse, particularly following the John Smyth revelations.

  "I went, as I said at the time, out of a sense of both personal responsibility for shortcomings during my time and my own shortcomings, and out of a sense of institutional responsibility for the long term revelations of cover up and failure over a long period."
  — Justin Welby [03:33]

• What changed your mind about resigning?
  Initially hoping to stay, Welby says rereading the leaked report and reflecting on survivors’ suffering convinced him he needed to step down.

  “As I reflected on the horrible suffering of the survivors which had been, as many of them said, more than doubled by the institutional church’s failure to respond adequately, it increasingly became clear to me that I needed to resign.” — Justin Welby [04:18]

2. Personal Failings and Institutional Shortcomings

• Welby’s errors in handling allegations:
  He admits insufficient curiosity and a failure to push harder to ensure all details were uncovered and the abuse fully investigated.

  "I think I was not sufficiently pushy... I should have said, are we absolutely sure there's no one else involved?"
  — Justin Welby [05:08]

  When challenged about not caring enough:

  "I cared. I wasn't curious enough."
  — Justin Welby [06:23]

• On church culture and tone-deaf responses:
  Welby acknowledges that his lighthearted remarks in parliament, intended as a valedictory speech, were a mistake that deeply upset survivors.

  “It did cause profound upset and I am profoundly ashamed of that... It was entirely wrong and entirely inexcusable.”
  — Justin Welby [10:04]

• Church resistance to safeguarding reform:
  Despite supporting independent safeguarding, Welby explains changes require Synod approval, which wasn’t achieved during his tenure.

  “You would know from looking back over what I've said, that I am entirely in favour of independent safeguarding.”
  — Justin Welby [11:38]

  He clarifies leadership constraints:

  “The Archbishop of Canterbury is not the chief executive of Church of England plc. You can't make things change by saying this will now happen, otherwise we'd have had independent safeguarding.”
  — Justin Welby [12:15]

3. Handling of Abuse Disclosures

• Institutional barriers:
  Welby references being informed by the police not to interfere, but acknowledges he still should have checked in.

  “If you have a message from the police saying under no circumstances are you to get involved because you will contaminate our inquiry... I should have done that. I should have pestered them, to be honest. And I see that now.”
  — Justin Welby [13:55]

• On meeting victims:
  He admits to meeting survivors late and expresses regret.

  "I have said sorry very much. And just for the avoidance of doubt, I am utterly sorry and feel a deep sense of personal failure…"
  — Justin Welby [08:39]

4. Broader Church Issues: Women and LGBTQ+ Inclusion

• On equality:
  With ongoing debates about the role of women and LGBTQ+ individuals in the Church, Welby frames the church as a diverse global family where unity and tradition complicate swift progress.

  “The Church of England is one part of 85 million people in 165 countries… The average Anglican is a woman in her 30s in Sub Saharan Africa on less than $4 a day.”
  — Justin Welby [19:19]

• On persistent exclusion:
  Welby laments the slow progress but insists changes require broad consensus.

  “You need a two thirds majority under the rules... We wouldn't have got women bishops through if we hadn't made provision for those who… have a different view.”
  — Justin Welby [21:08]

5. Reflections on Public Moments and the Monarchy

• On the Queen’s funeral and the coronation:
  Welby describes these as profound experiences, highlighting the intersection of faith, history, and public life.

  “I think the late Queen's funeral, the experience of that week, an extraordinary moment of being aware of the turn of history… The most significant moment of that service for me was the anointing, which of course was behind the screen.”
  — Justin Welby [16:38, 17:49]

• Personal spiritual reflections:

  “An overwhelming sense of the presence of God, by the Holy Spirit, and of the weight that we were laying as a nation on the King's shoulders…”
  — Justin Welby [18:05]

6. Future Plans After Resignation

• Life after the See of Canterbury:
  Welby intends to pursue mediation and reconciliation work, and looks forward to “total obscurity.”

  “I would like to focus very much on mediation and reconciliation in this country and abroad… And never, after today, to be on telly again. In other words, disappear. I'm looking for total obscurity.”
  — Justin Welby [21:47]

7. Forgiveness and the John Smyth Case

• On seeking forgiveness:
  Welby clarifies that he would like to be forgiven by survivors, but insists forgiveness must never be requested from, or demanded of, victims.

  “Everyone wants to be forgiven, but to demand forgiveness is to abuse again… I am so sorry that I did not serve the victims and survivors, nor did the Church as they should have done, and I should have done. And that's why I resigned.”
  — Justin Welby [22:56]

• Does he forgive John Smyth?
  Welby says he does, but recognizes the focus belongs on the victims’ experience, not his.

  “Yes, I think if he was alive and I saw him, but it's not me he's abused… After that, you can start talking about forgiveness.”
  — Justin Welby [24:23]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "I cared. I wasn’t curious enough."
  — Justin Welby [06:23]
• "Being overwhelmed is a reason. It isn't an excuse."
  — Justin Welby [07:53]
• "It was entirely wrong and entirely inexcusable." (On making a joke in Parliament)
  — Justin Welby [10:04]
• "Everyone wants to be forgiven, but to demand forgiveness is to abuse again."
  — Justin Welby [22:56]

Key Timestamps

• 03:33 — Welby explains his decision to resign
• 04:18 — On reflecting on survivors and institutional failure
• 06:23–07:53 — Welby details personal shortcomings and systemic overwhelm
• 10:04 — Acknowledgment of inexcusable public remarks
• 11:38–13:10 — On the struggle for safeguarding reform and church resistance
• 16:38–18:05 — Reflections on personal, historic church events (Queen’s funeral, coronation)
• 19:19–21:08 — On inclusion and the complexity of church governance
• 22:56 — Reflections on forgiveness and the correct posture toward survivors
• 24:23 — Does he forgive John Smyth? Framing forgiveness around the needs of victims

Closing

This episode offers a rare, vulnerable insight into Justin Welby’s conscience and the institutional challenges facing the Church of England. It is a stark account of personal and collective shortcomings, the complexities of spiritual leadership in the public eye, and the difficult road toward reconciliation and reform. Welby’s candor, admissions of failure, and focus on survivor needs provide a powerful opportunity for reflection on forgiveness, institutional accountability, and the ongoing struggle for change within longstanding institutions.