← The Interview
The Interview
Karim Beguir, co-founder of InstaDeep: People are too gloomy about AI
00:23:01
Ed Butler speaks to Karim Beguir, co-founder of InstaDeep, Africa’s biggest AI firm
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- [00:00]
LinkedIn Ads Narrator
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- [00:47]
Ed Butler
This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline?
- [00:50]
Podcast Host
For the show from the BBC? This is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
- [01:00]
Karim Beguir
This isn't about COR quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.
- [01:03]
Podcast Host
It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your
- [01:08]
Ed Butler
everyday life and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.
- [01:13]
Podcast Host
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:20]
Ed Butler
Hi there, I'm BBC presenter Ed Butler and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.
- [01:33]
Karim Beguir
If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united.
- [01:41]
Ed Butler
Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey.
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Being born in America, feeling American, having
- [01:46]
Karim Beguir
people treat me like I'm not.
- [01:48]
Ed Butler
We're more popular than populism.
- [01:52]
For this interview, I'm with Karim Beguir. He's the co founder of instadeep, Africa's biggest AI firm. In 2014, he launched the company with just two laptops and $2,000. Three years later, he was meeting the tech titan Mark Zuckerberg of Meta. By the time the pandemic hit, his technology was being used to track dangerous COVID variants supporting the development of targeted vaccines. As you'll hear, Karim's belief in giving something back to society underpins his work, whether it's sharing his groundbreaking research or launching a project to bring the opportunities of AI to the developing world.
- [02:32]
Karim Beguir
It's about breaking that sort of like, glass wall which is in people's minds that I cannot be successful. If I am in Africa, I don't have the same opportunity as in Silicon Valley, of course, it's still true, but it's a lot less true than before because of the Internet, but also now because of AI. You could be in a remote town in Africa, but you would have essentially a team of geniuses working for you, because modern AI, the IQ of the very best systems, is now reaching 150 IQ. So we're getting into the genius level category. And so in the past, you wouldn't have been able to build a team, a talented team that could compete to today you can.
- [03:20]
Ed Butler
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Karim Beguir.
- [03:25]
Karim Beguir
My father had just finished his medical studies and became a doctor in France. And so the whole family moved when I was one year old to the Tunisian desert, literally Tatooine, which is famous for Planet Tatooine of George Lucas and Star Wars. And this was literally the last city before the desert, as remote as it. As it gets, even in Tunisia. And my dad could have made easier choices, either stay in France or, like, be on a coastal city or the capital in Tunisia. But he was from Tatooine and he wanted to give back. And so I grew up with essentially, like that being like the doctor of the city, having, like an exciting childhood in many ways, like playing with the children. I felt I had a very privileged childhood.
- [04:15]
Ed Butler
And that idea of giving back was something that stayed with you?
- [04:19]
Karim Beguir
Absolutely. I mean, very often we say that we learn from our parents, not from what they say, but what they do. And really, like, what I have learned from my dad was really like giving back, putting the human before anything else. And really, like, he left a very profound moral heritage, not only in the city, but on me. And later on, this guided some of the choices I made.
- [04:46]
Ed Butler
You studied mathematics, Applied maths at universities in both France and in the United States. You then made a career in finance. Right. You worked in banks.
- [04:57]
Karim Beguir
I studied all across Tunisia, made it to Paris, Ecole Polytechnique and later the us And I was passionate about applied mathematics. For me, this notion of applying knowledge to the real world and having a positive impact was key. And at the time, if you were into applied math, advanced modeling, et cetera, the most interesting jobs were in investment banks. This was just after the tech bubble had burst. And so I did that before moving to my true passions.
- [05:28]
Ed Butler
Tell me about your true passions.
- [05:30]
Karim Beguir
Back when I was in New York, I had studied neural networks. They had found them intriguing.
- [05:36]
Ed Butler
And I describe what a neural network is for.
- [05:39]
Karim Beguir
So neural network is really like taking a signal, whether it's data, an image, or the like and doing like multiple simple operations on it, multiplications, additions, and trying to get the system to learn. For example, like, if this image is an image of a cat, it should tell you it's a cat and not a dog. And so neural networks are a way to go directly from the data to the final signal that you care about. And in principle it works, except at the time they were very small. Compute capability was not that strong, so it would work for relatively simple stuff. But much later on I came up with a research paper and it was talking about this amazing new technology called deep learning. And I was intrigued, like, what is deep learning? So I start reading the research paper and. And I'm like, well, these are neural networks. I know this stuff. And that's what we decided to do.
- [06:38]
Ed Butler
You decided to do this in 2014, right. With the launch of Instadeep. Now this was in Tunisia. I've seen you've written that it started with two laptops, $2,000 and a lot of enthusiasm. That doesn't sound like very much given the challenge you were taking on. Exactly.
- [06:58]
Karim Beguir
And I have to add, without a clear business plan, it's not like, hey, we had this amaz strategy. We were going to do AI at the level of the very best in the industry, and suddenly we did it. No, it was. I had this hunch that doing something entrepreneurial, connecting Africa and Europe, in particular North Africa, this was something that I was highly interested in. But really like the trigger for me was meeting my co founder, Zora Slim. Zora was the kind of person that you would feel super comfortable working with no matter the time of the day and night. I remember us working until 3am trying to get the website of that project, which we were called lacademie. So startups are about people. They're not about like having this magical idea or business plan or whatever it's really about. It's a human adventure. This will be so tough that it's all about like, are you ready for it? Do you have the right partners? Is the relationship you have with your co founder really like, rock solid? Because it will get tested. And that's how we created instadeep. With very limited ambitions, but that willingness to do stuff, experiment, and it was a lot of fun in the early days.
- [08:16]
Ed Butler
But you were in Tunisia, which, let's be honest, was not a massively rich or wealthy business landscape in itself, was it? And you're trying something which is technology, which nobody's heard of. Artificial intelligence was hardly a word on people's lips in 2014 was it. So how did this evolve? What were you actually selling?
- [08:37]
Karim Beguir
So software systems, websites, apps. The first years were tough. We took zero salary, four years, me and Zora. The first AI product we sold was in 2016 and was quite advanced for its time. So as a visual AI system to recognize objects and give them an estimate of price, for example, like luxury objects, watches, bags, etc. But in the early days it was simply a tech company and then we started digging into AI.
- [09:05]
Ed Butler
In 2018, you raised your first Series A funding. This is $8 million or so, which I guess must have felt like a leap forward. What felt like the first sort of major, really groundbreaking technological achievement of InstaDeep,
- [09:24]
Karim Beguir
the first breakthrough from sort of like product and visibility. This came in 2017. Like, the context was we went to the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, we showed our app and people were blown away. You guys are from North Africa, from Tunisia, and you built this. And we were like, yeah, yeah. And a journalist from PCMAG at the time came and saw this and he was very impressed. And we ended up in the 20 most intriguing startups of the Mobile World Congress. And this led ultimately to actually me receiving an email from the leadership of Facebook, Meta, saying, hey, actually Mark Zuckerberg would like to meet you. I was like, this must be a fake. I called Zora, I said, can you check this? And she was like, no, no, the email is indeed from Facebook at the time. So Meta and you should go. And that's how suddenly I land in Silicon Valley, meet with Mark. We were like, this was a roundtable with 12 entrepreneurs. And I was like, this is actually possible. Like Silicon Valley is not this distant dream that you cannot reach. We have a shot at this. Ultimately leading the year after to the Series A and offers breakthrough, which was a research breakthrough. I had been tremendously inspired by AlphaGo and AlphaZero from Google DeepMind. This notion that a system could learn even without data, just by trial and error.
- [10:57]
Ed Butler
This is a machine literally teaching itself exactly.
- [11:00]
Karim Beguir
It's like, in this particular case, think about the game of chess and Go, essentially play multiple, multiple games, and starting from zero, the system in a few hours, four, five hours, would become essentially the very best player in history if you throw a compute at it. And I was fascinated by this. And I was like, okay, this is cool, but what about applying it with modifications not in the game setting, but in real industrial situations, improving the efficiency of container loading, improving the efficiency of logistics, fleet management and the like? And that was our first paper which we decided to publish. And this was an important decision, like should we try to hide and patent and stuff. I was like, no, the AI research community is very open, let's publish. And that was probably like the best thing we had done or decided to do at the time.
- [11:53]
Ed Butler
Why was that the best decision? Your IP wasn't going to be stolen by someone else.
- [11:58]
Karim Beguir
That was the most surprising thing. I did it for fundamental reasons. And then I realized actually it was a very good move because suddenly people got interested into what we are doing. We literally shown that we could do innovative research. That paper actually attracted the attention of many researchers in the AI community, which led to hiring talents, led to much more visibility, and even led to business. So incredibly, being open and sort of being good karma led to much more progress than I ever thought. That was an important lesson for us.
- [12:40]
Ed Butler
So you're working on supply chains effectively with big companies in some cases. Then there is COVID 19, the pandemic. And you develop this relationship with BioNTech. Tell me about that.
- [12:54]
Karim Beguir
So I actually had the opportunity to meet the founder of BioNTech, Hugo Sahin, the founder and CEO, Summer 2019. He was telling me about the research they were doing in biology and I was telling him about the research we're doing in AI and notably in reinforcement learning, those trial and error techniques. And we were like, maybe we should start a project together. In late 2019, we were working already on personalized cancer vaccines. So methods like using RNA to develop a vaccine, but just for a patient that has cancer. And then indeed Covid and the pandemic
- [13:35]
Ed Butler
arrived and I guess then the race is on amongst every big pharma company in the world to produce the vaccine for Covid and you became part of that process.
- [13:48]
Karim Beguir
So we were working with BioNTech. We were not directly part of the team that designed the vaccine. The COVID vaccine was developed using classical biotechnology methods. But then you had this explosion of variants. You would have like tens of thousands of different variants sequenced every week. And I was like, no human can process that much amount of data. So we need to find out something like if you would get the amino acid sequence of that particular variant. The question was then, could you guess just based on the sequence without any further testing, would this be a dangerous immune escaping variant or would it be like a class which would not warrant further attention, fizzle out and disappear. Exactly. And this was an important question. Apparently we were the first team, or one of the very first teams in the world to deploy large language model technology, LLM technology. So Transformers attention based Models to actually the COVID variants, helping us prescreen with AI, the sequences, the variants of interest.
- [15:01]
Ed Butler
So this is an early warning system. Exactly, it's an early warning system for future variants that could be dangerous. People may remember the Delta variant, it was very dangerous, or it seemed to be in the, in the first months, Right, Yes. Omicron and Omicron as well. So these were the variants that were cropping up at that time and you were able to, to kind of catch them or at least flag them as they were approaching, which allowed people who were developing vaccines. Right, to, to adapt.
- [15:30]
Karim Beguir
Exactly. And the important thing was to catch early signal before anything else. The goal here, Ed, is to use it as an early filter to sort of like guide you towards what needs to be tested. You still need to test, you still need to validate in the lab. But having that first filter is very useful. For example, Omicron. The moment we got the sequence, we immediately flagged that this was the most immune escaping variant we had ever seen so far. And so AI turned out to be actually a powerful tool in the fight against the pandemic. And even though it's a modest contribution, in the end, you know, nothing like what has been achieved with creating the vaccine. I felt this was exactly the kind of things that instadip was about. It's literally build AI that benefits everyone. So we are very excited to have been able to achieve that.
- [16:37]
LinkedIn Ads Narrator
The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buyers. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com Broadcast, that's LinkedIn.com Broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.
- [17:18]
Ed Butler
This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline
- [17:22]
Podcast Host
for the show from the BBC? This is the inter the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
- [17:31]
Karim Beguir
This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.
- [17:34]
Podcast Host
It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your
- [17:39]
Ed Butler
everyday life and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.
- [17:44]
Podcast Host
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:51]
Ed Butler
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. I'm Ed Butler and I've been speaking to Karim Beguier, a French Tunisian who, when I met him in our BBC studio, displayed all the passionate intensity that you might expect of a man on a mission. What is the mission? Well, as much as anything, it seems to be to show his fellow Africans that in the brave new world of AI technology, really anything is possible. Let's return to our conversation.
- [18:20]
Tell me about Project Tatooine.
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Karim Beguir
Oh, Project Tatooine is really like coming back actually to the origins of all this, which was can we offer a better future for young talents everywhere and in particular in the developing world? Really like, the experience I had within study was that digital innovation could truly lead to abundance. If you had told me what would happen with Instadib, starting with a bootstrap, two laptops, $2,000 to creating the largest exit in African tech history and the largest in AI outside the US to this day, I'd have said you must be dreaming. Yet it happened.
- [19:07]
Ed Butler
You still, at this point, and even today, you have one foot in Tunisia.
- [19:11]
LinkedIn Ads Narrator
Right?
- [19:12]
Ed Butler
One in London, primarily. These are your two bases.
- [19:14]
Karim Beguir
Yes. And the third in Paris.
- [19:16]
Ed Butler
And the third in Paris. And this is a connection here. So Project Tatooine is the ambition essentially to help train and bring up young tech talent from, I guess, primarily the continent of Africa.
- [19:29]
Karim Beguir
Exactly. And Project Tatooine is a personal project, it's not an in study project. What about we actually subsidize those classes, make them affordable. Students still have to have skin in the game. So like pay 20% of the cost of a class, the 80% being subsidized by us. Let's go all the way. If you have willingness to learn, willingness to work hard and an Internet connection, then the world is yours. And that's exactly what we're doing.
- [20:02]
Ed Butler
How many people do you have subscribed?
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Karim Beguir
So we are now exceeded 1,000 students and the ultimate goal is.
- [20:10]
Ed Butler
And these are from across Africa primarily.
- [20:12]
Karim Beguir
So we started in North Africa, in Tunisia, but I think the project is going to expand beyond GoMyCode or EdTech. Partner is actually present in multiple countries, Senegal, Nigeria. And so there is potential to do a lot more in the future. It's really about the concept and in many ways, Ed, it's about breaking that sort of like glass wall which is in people's minds, that I cannot be successful if I am in Africa. I don't have the Same opportunity as in Silicon Valley. Of course it's still true, but it's a lot less true than before because of the Internet, but also now because of AI. You could be in a remote town in Africa, but you would have essentially a team of geniuses working for you. Because modern AI, the IQ of the very best systems, is now reaching 150 IQ. And so in the past you wouldn't have been able to build a team, a talented team that could compete. Today you can.
- [21:16]
Ed Butler
It's a utopian vision, I guess, but there will be those. And you've hinted at this already, AI is itself a genius level right now. It does raise the question, where does that leave people? I mean, whether you're from a corner of Africa or whether you're from a rich Western country, most of us are not geniuses. So, yeah, the computers are taking over.
- [21:42]
Karim Beguir
And this is why it's extraordinarily important to learn how to control the computer or learn how to get those geniuses to work for you effectively. What's going on is we are now making a transition from a world built on zero sum mentality, precious, scarce resources, whether it is intelligence or energy, to a world where, effectively, energy and intelligence is going to be unlimited. And so this is a very profound change. But it's an extraordinary opportunity. There could be abundance for all. And I'm passionate about this issue. People are too gloomy about AI, particularly in the developing world. It's seen as a threat. People are going to be using AI systems rather than offshoring jobs and the like. That's true. But you could use AI yourself and develop solutions to the challenges you have in your community, in your country, and create unprecedented wealth.
- [22:45]
Ed Butler
People could do that. But are you not, do you not share any of the fear? I mean, the fear is not, as I say, just in Africa, it's everywhere that this usurping of human power, human potential by artificial intelligence, it will only take a few bad actors to deploy it in ways that could be horrendously destructive.
- [23:07]
Karim Beguir
AI is a very powerful technology and like we've seen in the past, very powerful tech. Think about, like, nuclear power can be used for good or bad reasons, but ultimately nuclear power was probably a net positive for humanity in terms of, like, a source of energy that's readily accessible and the like. And I suspect that it will be the same in AI. So are there concerns? Absolutely. Are there areas where we need more work, particularly on AI safety and the like? Absolutely. But the amount of work, opportunity, abundance and wealth is actually unlimited. When you Think about it. There are so many challenges that would reward an entrepreneur solving them in Africa and beyond. So am I worried? No. But I am pragmatic and the main issue I'm trying to avoid at a personal level is disconnect between certain parts of the developing world and this technology. And because I'm passionate about it, this
- [24:11]
Ed Butler
book Leapfrog you've written is basically saying Africa can be a success in the AI space without public funding.
- [24:19]
Karim Beguir
Absolutely. I felt a strong moral urgency to communicate that there is a path where unlimited wealth is created all across the world and in particular in the developing world without any public funding, because I'm very realistic. Governments, they're not going to fund like future looking projects or things that are uncertain, but the private sector could. And in Leapfrog I essentially explain how you can actually build this successful future of abundance built on the simple principle that intelligence and energy are going to become abundant. You could see it as a threat, but I see it as the best opportunity we have ever seen.
- [25:08]
Ed Butler
The thoughts of Karim Begir, Co Founder of instadeep thank you for listening to the interview. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can find many more wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including ones with the Google boss, Sundar Pichai, Mustafa Suleiman of Microsoft AI and Nick Clegg, the former Global Affairs President at Meta. Until the next time from me, Ed Butler. Goodbye.
- [25:40]
This is not the future we were promised. Like how about that for a tagline
- [25:44]
Karim Beguir
for the show from the BBC?
- [25:47]
Podcast Host
This is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
- [25:54]
Karim Beguir
This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.
- [25:57]
Podcast Host
It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your
- [26:02]
Ed Butler
everyday life and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.
- [26:07]
Podcast Host
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.