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The Interview
Malala Yousafzai, global education campaigner: I did not know who I was
00:22:59
Madina Maishanu speaks to education campaigner Malala Yousafzai about finding her identity
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- [00:00]
BBC Podcast Announcer
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Madina Meishanu
Vanity Fair calls Britbox a delicious streamer. Collider says everyone should be watching. Catch Britain's next best series with Britbox Streamer claim new originals like Code of Silence, you Read Lips right and Lynley, based on the best selling mystery series CI Linley. Take it from here and don't miss the new season of Karen Pirie coming this October.
- [00:27]
Malala Yousafzai
You don't look like Please see, I'll.
- [00:29]
Madina Meishanu
Take that as a compliment. See it differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch with a free trial today.
- [00:36]
BBC Podcast Announcer
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- [01:13]
Madina Meishanu
Hello, I'm Madina Meishanu, BBC presenter and this is the interview from the BBC World. The best conversations coming out of the BBC people shaping our world from all over the world.
- [01:29]
Chip Kleinixel
There have been so many disagreements between.
- [01:32]
Malala Yousafzai
Me and my family.
- [01:33]
Interviewer
Putting on a show that is what.
- [01:35]
Malala Yousafzai
It means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy.
- [01:52]
Madina Meishanu
For this interview, the I met Malala Yousafzai, global education activist in Abuja, Nigeria. You are going to hear her personal story. She tells me about the impact of the dramatic events of her teenage years, her advocacy for girls education and the assassination attempt which nearly killed her, but also how these came to define her in the public eye and left her struggling to find her own identity. Activism is my mission, she says, but I am human just like anyone else. She speaks openly about her mental health and seeking therapy and about improving her relationship with her mother, but also the joy of friendship, playing golf and becoming a reckless student. Malala's tireless campaigning on the right of all girls to an education continues and remains the goal that drives her work.
- [02:47]
Malala Yousafzai
This is something you know like I Always think about, like, what is it that keeps a girl out of school? Like, that is the question that keeps me up at night. People do not understand that education for girls is actually connected to everything that we are talking about right now, whether that is addressing extreme poverty or extremism or inequality. We cannot talk about all of these issues without talking about girls education. Girls education has been proven to be one of the best investments in the future of a country, the future of the world. So I think we need to shift the way we think about girls education.
- [03:24]
Madina Meishanu
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Malala Yousufzai.
- [03:30]
Malala Yousafzai
I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me as this brave, courageous young activist. But I was still 15 years old and I did not know who I was. So, you know, my exposure to media, to public life, has really sort of limited the way I could express myself. Activism is my lifelong mission, and that will continue to be a part of my life. But there's always more to a person than just that. And, yeah, you know, it's like, you know, you. You in the end are a human just like anybody else. You want to make friends, you want to feel loved, you want, you know, you want to have that support around you.
- [04:13]
Interviewer
So your story is one that is very touching, one that almost everyone in the world knows. When you were shot at 15 by the Taliban, and that must have impacted your childhood. Would you say that subsequently fame also impacted your childhood?
- [04:29]
Malala Yousafzai
I think it was a bit of everything. At 15, when I was recovered from the attack, I started school in the UK in a completely new country. I actually really struggled to make friends. By the end of my school time, I just had made one friend. So when I was about to join university, I had one mission and that was to make as many friends as I could. Because friends also help you grow as a person. It is part of the emotional growth. So I'm so lucky to say right now that I have made a lot of friends and they have helped me in difficult moments, from handling essay crisis to just have moments of laughter, to also being there with each other when we have gone through tough moments.
- [05:19]
Interviewer
But why did you struggle to make friends? Was it the fame?
- [05:22]
Malala Yousafzai
I think it's because people think that they know you, they have heard about you on tv, so they have this fixed image of you. And that image of mine is that of like this brave Malala who survived the. The Taliban's attack at age 15. And it was this gap of having a normal conversation that I couldn't Get. Because, like, in Pakistan, of course, I was a normal girl. I was mischievous sometimes. I had a lot of friends. I loved to talk about anything. And what I wanted was that you can be an activist, but you could also be yourself. And this is something that I missed on when I was in the school days, but I had to, like, relearn and reconnect with all of that later on in my college time.
- [06:12]
Interviewer
You've recently written a new book which is yet to be released. It's called Finding My Way. And that title just seems very personal. What does it mean to you?
- [06:23]
Malala Yousafzai
Yes, this is the most personal reflections I have ever shared before. I talk about my school years, which were lonely. I talk about my college life, where I decided to become more of a reckless student. I have become more of a sports person. Right now I'm doing quite good at golf. I talk about friendships and love life and at the same time, mental health, because that is something that affected me many, many years later after the attack. So I have been very open in expressing my feelings, and I help the readers walk through the journey with me. This is, in a way, me reintroducing myself.
- [06:58]
Interviewer
You speak about your mental health a lot. And you also mentioned many times that you go to therapy. How has therapy helped you?
- [07:08]
Malala Yousafzai
Actually, I started therapy seven, eight years later after the attack, because when I survived the physical injuries, I thought, this is it. This is what recovery means. And, you know, if you heal from one bullet, like, you don't need a conversation about therapy and how do you feel? But many years later, I realized how the trauma, the flashbacks, everything just got triggered and they all came back and it broke me down. Because if you don't address it on time, it can completely, like, break you down when it comes to you all at once. So my perspective on mental health has completely changed now. It was actually my university friend who recommended that I should see a therapist because in the beginning I thought nobody could understand me. My situation is just so different. But I had a few sessions with the therapist, and I realized, okay, like, this is something I should have been having much, much earlier. And I thought the therapist could, like, maybe fix it in one session. I thought she would write some medication, but no, I think it's about conversation. It's about processing what you're going through and learning that, you know, this, this is now a part of you, but the effect of it on you gets smaller and smaller when you face it, when you talk about it. So, yes, like, therapy is now part of, like, my Jo, you once mentioned.
- [08:33]
Interviewer
That Your mom was very strict when you were growing up. You didn't have the easiest relationship. How is your relationship with her now?
- [08:40]
Malala Yousafzai
My mom and I are becoming friends now. I think it's still work in progress. I fully understand why my mom was strict growing up because she had a very different childhood than mine. Girls at her time were not allowed to go to school. They were told off for the clothes they were wearing or if they were told to stay inside their house, houses they could not have fun or anything. They could not play outside as soon as they became like teenagers. So for my mom, it was always about keep your daughter restricted and so that she does not get into trouble. So my mom had that intention in mind. So she would always say like, you know, what would your cousins think? What would your family members think if you wear jeans or if you wear like non traditional Pakistani dresses? So for her, like, I had to still represent my culture and my people. And I said, mom, I'm just still a student in college. Everybody wears jeans. It's completely fine. It's still a modest dress and I want to be like any other student. I don't want to stand out in my traditional clothing. But we would always have these arguments. It was always a topic about something, but I knew she always had a good intention. We still argue about things, but that is part of the mother daughter relationship.
- [10:04]
Interviewer
It seems very conservative, I would say, but for a mom that was very conservative like yours, how did she handle you coming out at 11 to champion for girl child education?
- [10:19]
Malala Yousafzai
So my mom is conservative more in the dress style and don't talk to boys and all of that. But she is a very brave woman and she herself was supporting me and my dad in our activism. She never told us not to speak out because she knew that education is a way to help girls have a better future. She herself saved so many friends in Pakistan. There was one friend of mine who was still 11 or 12 years old and my mom saved her life because she was raped and my mom helped her to get an abortion. And when I think back, yes, my mom is like, if you debate with her, she might give you a different opinion. But in terms of her action, she is about saving girl's lives. She is about giving them a better future.
- [11:17]
Interviewer
Right? Everything you've been through, your journey, when you were shot and the Malala of today, do you think it's all worth it?
- [11:26]
Malala Yousafzai
This is a tough question to address because I usually would say that I wish I was in the old life. I wish I could have continued my life in Pakistan. But when I think about how things took a turn and now that I'm able to lead a movement for girls education and we are able to work together with incredible partners like here in Nigeria, when I look at these incredible organizations, like a dozen of them, who are leading change for girls, then I'm like, you know, whatever the circumstances, this pathway is rewarding. And I do not want to look back. I do not want to change it for a second because of the change that today we can make for girls.
- [12:13]
Interviewer
But what keeps you going through everything?
- [12:17]
Malala Yousafzai
I remember my meetings with girls. Girls are so determined for their education. I have met girls in Nigeria. I met girls who were abducted by the Boko Haram who escaped from that. I have met girls in Pakistan, in Iraq, in Brazil, I met Palestinian girls. And when I look at their determination, how they know they do not need to be told. They know that education is a pathway to a better, safer future for them. I know that we are doing the right thing. So girls are my hope. They are my inspiration.
- [12:57]
Madina Meishanu
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service people shaping our world from all over the world.
- [13:08]
Chip Kleinixel
Implementing AI is now a must for companies and the executives in charge of steering them. But how do you turn AI experimentation into actual business results? I'm Chip Kleinixel, host of Resilient Edge, a business vitality podcast paid and presented by Deloitte. It's not about AI for AI, but AI for roi. Arjun Krishnamurthy from Deloitte cuts through the hype. It's about return on investment. Which use case do I start with that gives me the most value? Roi value has become way more important because you know, AI is not cheap. And here's where most companies get stuck deciding where to invest resources. Why spend your precious IT or R and D resources on building something that anyway comes out of the box? Philip Herzig, SAP's chief technology officer, sees companies spending too many resources reinventing the wheel. In this episode, we're joining all the dots for a complete look at AI implementation. So where do I actually see the most value? Where the least effort? Where it's mostly plug and play that helps us to prioritize scenarios that offer medium to high value, requiring low to medium effort to implement. It sounds simple, but it's revolutionizing how smart companies approach AI investments. So where should you build, where should you buy? And how do you avoid common pitfalls that derail most AI initiatives? All of that and more on this episode of Resilient Edge. Find us wherever you listen to Podcasts.
- [14:41]
Madina Meishanu
For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to global education activist Malala Yousafzai. She was in Nigeria with Malala Fund, her organization working to ensure an education for girls. Nigeria has the highest number of out of school children in the world. When Malala arrived at our Abuja bureau, she was immediately warm and accommodating. Far more approachable than the serious image many see on tv. She lit up when we talked about her as a person sharing glimpses of her life that rarely make it into the public eye. When I asked her about how fun she seems on Instagram, she laughed and said she's even more fun in real life. It was a reminder that behind a global figure is someone genuinely human and deeply relatable. Ok, let's return to my conversation with Malala Yousufzai.
- [15:33]
Interviewer
People expect you to be an activist. So would you personally consider yourself as an activist or a politician?
- [15:40]
Malala Yousafzai
I think for me it's about advocating for a safer future for children. It's about every girl having the right to school. And that is the mission of my life. I promote that in everything that I do, whether that is the work through Malala Fund, which is a nonprofit that works in many countries, and whether that is something like storytelling or sports and all of these things that I'm doing. For me it's about how do we create more opportunities. But if you look at the world and if there's like a war going on, if there's conflict, if there's a genocide going on, like millions of children lose their future and we cannot look away from that. So for me, it's bringing attention to these crises, these situations that children, that women face and being there for them. Like, you know, the change that we want to bring will not become a reality if we look away from the catastrophe, from the disasters that are happening right now.
- [16:35]
Interviewer
So let's move on to some global issues now. Malala, in the past you've spoken a lot about Gaza and you've also provided school supplies for children in Gaza. And you recently just come in from Egypt where you met with Palestinian refugees. In your opinion, do you think that is enough to make an impact?
- [16:51]
Malala Yousafzai
I think for as long as we witness a genocide happening in Gaza, everything we're doing is not enough. But I do believe that we should be doing what we can. It does not mean we give up on taking action. And for me, that is about uplifting the voices of Palestinians, Palestinian people, and then support the local organizations who are helping Palestinians in Gaza and also in the neighboring countries. The Palestinians who have become refugees. And that's exactly what I did. You know, we have been supporting these organizations for the past two years now. And I recently visited the projects of one of the organizations called Inara. And in Egypt, I went to their programs. They are providing education, mental health support, and they're helping the families. They're doing, like, surgeries for these children who have lost their limbs, who have been going through such trauma. They're helping them through mental health program. It just broke my heart to see what these children have witnessed. But these incredible organizations are doing everything to help these children get out of the severe trauma that they have faced, give them this hope that they deserve to have a life in dignity. And through their education, these Palestinian children are hoping that they can one day be, you know, be living a normal life, and they can be, you know, having a future.
- [18:19]
Interviewer
So in Pakistan, the Taliban are making a comeback, especially in some regions where women and children are being killed. What do you have to say on that?
- [18:28]
Malala Yousafzai
From the very start, when the Taliban took control of Afghanistan, I made it very clear that countries standing up to the Taliban and protecting the right of women and girls is not just important for women and girls in Afghanistan, but this is important for women and girls in the neighboring countries and women and girls everywhere. Women's rights in Afghanistan should be treated as an issue of women's rights everywhere. You are very right that the reappearance of the Taliban in parts of Pakistan is very concerning. And I fear about the education of girls in Afghanistan and in parts of Pakistan as well, because it's been very clear. We have seen what the Taliban believe in for more than two decades now. The Taliban do not believe in girls education. They do not believe in women's rights. They have issued more than 100 decrees and edicts in Afghanistan limiting women from the right to work, the right to education. And I hope that countries actually and leaders, including Pakistan, can stand up and protect the right to education for girls. They can protect the rights of women.
- [19:30]
Interviewer
How do you stay hopeful for the future of education for girls?
- [19:34]
Malala Yousafzai
It is the activism of Afghan women, of other women activists in Pakistan everywhere, that gives me hope, because women and girls are not giving up. When I look at how different organizations and women activists are providing education through alternative platforms like radio, television, underground secret schools, I know that they are unstoppable. They will find a way to keep girls educated, to ensure that girls do not lose a future. But at the same time, they need support. They need more solidarity. Afghan women are also leading a campaign to push Countries to hold the Taliban accountable. Like, we need more pressure. Like, it's been four years and it seems like the world is just using words. But they're not really taking action against the Taliban. We need to go beyond just condemning them. And one thing they're asking for is to recognize what's happening in Afghanistan as a gender apartheid and, and that, you know, it should be codified in the international law so that perpetrators like the Taliban can be held accountable. And at the same time, like, we can have better protection for women's rights for in every country, you know, globally.
- [20:51]
Interviewer
We'Ve seen some progress, and then we started seeing regression. When it comes to out of school girls. What are the major steps that you think need to be taken to address this issue?
- [21:03]
Malala Yousafzai
This is something, you know, like I always think about, like, what is it that keeps a girl out of school? Like, that is a question that keeps me up at night. But for that, the most powerful way is to work with local education activists because the challenges are so different in each part of the world. And then even within a country, it's different. If you're working in the north or south or even within one city, it could be a completely different environment. So you are very right. Education has been treated as a side issue. People do not understand that education for girls is actually connected to everything that we are talking about right now, whether that is addressing extreme poverty or extremism or inequality. We cannot talk about all of these issues without talking about girls education. Girls education has been proven to be one of the best investments in the future, the future of the world. So I think we need to shift the way we think about girls education. It is connected with other issues. Like even in Nigeria, people have been talking about child marriage, forced marriages. And our activists are advocating how, along with the policy changes to prevent child marriage, we also have to invest in their quality education because education promises a better future for girls. And the longer a girl can stay in school and she is safer from being exposed to child marriage, how can we get them back into school? So this is one of the things that Malala Fund is working on together with our local education partners, where we talk about re enrollment into schools for teenage pregnant mothers so they can never miss the opportunity of losing their education. And at the same time, I think it's about financing and just bringing in the resources to make sure that there are good schools, good teaching, the wash facilities, the hygiene support, all of that. Because if we don't talk about these problems, it's hard for a girl to be in school if the school does not have any of these facilities, from teaching to hygiene and all of that. So I think sometimes people think it's culture or if it's this socioeconomic thing, I think we cannot really separate the two. I believe that we have to talk about the socioeconomic side of things. Because if let's start with that, let's provide schools, let's provide good teachers, let's make sure it has the facilities. Because that, in a way, also addresses these things that we think are cultural norms. In places where we have provided good quality education, the child marriage has dropped down itself because parents, of course, want their daughters to be in school in many places. It's just that they go through a lot of hardships and they do not have the facilities or they do not have the money to actually afford the child's education.
- [23:48]
Interviewer
So, Malala, apart from Afghanistan, where the Taliban has basically banned young girls from going to school, we've seen a surge in books being banned in even in countries like the U.S. why do you think education is such a threat to people?
- [24:03]
Malala Yousafzai
Education is very powerful. And when education is controlled, or when books get banned, or when people are promoting one specific ideology through it, or when they sort of limit it, I don't think it remains education anymore. It becomes indoctrination. So we need to make a distinction between that and at the same time, like, it just reminds us of how important it is that we give the skills of critical thinking, thinking to our children. We expose them to different ideas, to different concepts, so that they can make decisions for themselves, that they're more aware and they can have the skills to make a future for themselves. I think all of these things are like the backbone of the societies that we want to create. So I hope that it brings people together to really think about the education that we promise to children everywhere and that we think about the 120 million girls who do not have access to education, they do not have schools, and how we can create a world where education is a right and education is given to every child and it is a quality and safe education.
- [25:17]
Madina Meishanu
Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with American President Donald Trump, Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations, Amina Muhammad, and tennis great Martina Navratilova. Until the next time, bye for now.