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The Interview
Mike Pence: US will soon get deserving government
00:22:59
Paddy O’Connell speaks to former US Vice President Mike Pence about Trump’s second term
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- [00:00]
Paddy O'Connell
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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Mike Pence
You don't look like.
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Chip Kleinixel
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Mike Pence
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Chip Kleinixel
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Interviewer
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Chip Kleinixel
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Mike Pence
A lot of these successful companies, they.
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Interviewer
Treat data as a product.
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Chip Kleinixel
I'm Chip Kleinixel, host of Resilient Edge, the smart executive's guide to implementing and sustaining change. Paid and presented by Deloitte. Available now wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Paddy O'Connell
Hello, I'm BBC presenter Paddy o' Connell and this is the interview from the BBC World. The best conversations coming out of the BBC people shaping our world from all over the world.
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There have been so many disagreements between.
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Interviewer
Me and my family.
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Mike Pence
Putting on a show that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in.
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Interviewer
There's no place in the world where women are equal.
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Mike Pence
Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy.
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Paddy O'Connell
For this interview, I met Mike Pence, a former Republican US vice president who served during the first Trump administration. Mr. Pence first entered politics back in the year 2000, when the conservative lawyer successfully ran for his local congressional seat in Indiana. He was re elected to Congress six times in total before eventually becoming Indiana's state governor in 2013. Just three years later, Donald Trump selected Mr. Pence to be his running mate for the 2016 US presidential election, when the insurgent billionaire shocked the world by defeating the former first lady Hillary Clinton. Once in office, Pence navigated a number of controversies that surrounded Trump, including impeachment proceedings against the president. The pair, however, weren't always aligned in their worldviews, and the relationship became increasingly frayed behind closed doors. When Joe Biden won the presidential election in 2020, Pence resisted pressure from his then boss to overturn the result in what many Trump supporters saw as a betrayal. Mike Pence was subsequently targeted by rioters during the January 6 Capitol attack, when they sought to stop the certification process he was leading. After leaving the post of vice president, Mike Pence remained active in national politics in the years that followed, eventually running for the Republican nomination for the 2024 presidential election. This was, of course, won by his old boss, Donald Trump. But Mike Pence refused to IND endorse him the second time around.
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Mike Pence
I don't think America's through the looking glass. You know, I travel across our country all the time. But as I go across the country, I still believe the American people have those same common sense, values and virtues for which we are known and celebrated, the same generosity of spirit that the American people have already reflected. I'm very confident that someday soon we're going to have government as good as our people again.
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Paddy O'Connell
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Mike Pence in a conversation I recorded just two weeks ago.
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Interviewer
So I wonder if I can start by, you know, where you are. Do you worry that the US and the European nations have decoupled under the presidency of Donald Trump? Do you think this amazing NATO alliance has been weakened by this presidency?
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Mike Pence
I actually think the opposite is true. During my time as vice president, it was a time where our administration called on our NATO allies to step up and do more for our common defense. They did that in our time. But I must tell you, I think since that unprovoked, brutal invasion that Russia launched in Ukraine now more than three years ago, I think we've seen our allies across Europe and our allies have seen the United States step forward and act in a united way to give the war fighters in Ukraine the resources that they need. There's more to do. There have been stops and starts along the way on both sides of the Atlantic. But I honestly believe that Putin's action in Ukraine has measurably contributed to the unity between the United States and our European allies. And the NATO alliance has never been stronger.
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Interviewer
Because you use the phrase stops and starts. One of the stops and starts is Donald Trump keeps giving these ultimatums, which then nothing happens. For instance, on August 22, he announced a two week deadline or face unspecified consequences. We don't know what's happening or if anything.
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Mike Pence
Well, first, I want to give President Trump great credit. You know, the old book says blessed are the peacemakers. And I think the president's determination to remain engaged to bring about peace in Ukraine is commendable. There have been voices around the president in my country and even in his administration that frankly would have cut off American support to Ukraine months ago. But the President's remained persistent. The recent summit in Alaska, I thought, was the President's attempt to sit Vladimir Putin down and explore where there could be progress. That 50 day deadline that tolls now, I think now sets the stage for the consequences that President Trump has spoken about. Meeting with European allies. Shortly after the Alaska summit, I had a sense from afar that there was a clear understanding that if there was not progress toward peace that the United States and our European allies would have to act. And in my judgment, the action that the United States should take is that the US Senate should send those secondary sanctions that are waiting on the floor of the chamber to the floor, vote them, put them on the President's desk and have the President sign them into law. Look, I've met Vladimir Putin. I believe Putin doesn't want peace, he wants Ukraine. And he will only respond to strength and unity. And now is a moment where we ought to make it clear, as our allies here in Europe did this week in Paris, that will continue to provide the military support necessary for Ukraine to defend their freedom and their sovereignty. But I think the time has come for renewed and additional sanctions by the United States, and I'm going to continue to call for that along with our allies as well.
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Interviewer
And do you have any purchase on the 47th president? You're saying you want secondary sanctions as a bill in the Senate? Do you call Donald Trump and say now's the time. Is that the sort of relationship you still have with him?
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Mike Pence
Well, you know, the President and I don't talk as much as we used to. I'm proud of the relationship we enjoyed for four years. I'm proud of the record we created.
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Interviewer
Just it looked a lot like, it looks a lot like Vladimir Putin ignores him. That's what I'm getting at. You know, your relationships changed. Vladimir Putin seems to ignore Donald Trump.
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Mike Pence
Well, I. You hear otherwise. The President continues to insist that his dialogues with Vladimir Putin. Putin have been productive. I joined freedom loving people around the world and, and people who, like me, have strongly stood with Ukraine now for more than three years.
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Interviewer
Okay.
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Mike Pence
In the belief that now is the time for action. And in the United States Senate, there's only 100 members of the Senate, as you know, 85 members of the Senate have co sponsored those strong secondary sanctions. I think they ought to go to the President's desk. And I call on our European allies not only to do more with regard to renewed military support and pledges for security guarantees if there is a ceasefire, but as President Trump Called on more economic efforts to isolate Russia is the order of the day.
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Interviewer
Would you encourage Europe to seize Russian bank accounts in the way that they can spend Russian money on weapons for Ukraine?
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Mike Pence
I think everything should be on the table, including seizing frozen accounts. Look, this war was an act of naked aggression by Russia against Ukraine. It's part of a long pattern by Vladimir Putin to try and reassert that old Soviet sphere of influence. During the Bush administration, the invasion of Georgia, during the Obama administration, the invasion of Crimea, and during the Biden administration launching this attack on other parts of Ukraine. I think it's essential that the west continue to stand strong, because I have no doubt in my mind if Vladimir Putin overruns Ukraine, it'll only be a matter of time before he crosses a border of a NATO country where my country and all of our allies will have to confront him militarily.
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Interviewer
And so do you say that the president gets that? Because that is exactly the fear in the Baltic nations, for instance. And do you say that the U.S. security guarantee should be boots on the ground?
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Mike Pence
I've been very encouraged, frankly, by the leadership among our allies in Europe to formulate the kind of security guarantees that would create the conditions for a just and lasting peace. I think this administration has made it clear that there'll be a backstop to that with our European allies in the forefront. Not surprisingly, Vladimir Putin has already begun to rattle his saber to suggest that European troops on the ground in Ukraine would be, I think, in his word, legitimate targets. But that to me tells me that the efforts of our allies coming together in Europe, a backstop by the United States American military, has captured Vladimir Putin's attention and may may well be a pathway toward long term peace.
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Interviewer
We move on from the geopolitics with this final take on Donald Trump's record. He's accused of doing a reverse nix. He's driven India and Russia to China. They've got together with North Korea. It's the sort of new world order forming. And your man, your old friend Donald Trump, is blamed for laying the circumstances of that reaction.
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Mike Pence
Look, I think it's extremely important that the west stands strong against Russian aggression in Eastern Europe. And I also think it sends a very important message to President Xi and to China, who've made their ambitions toward expanding their influence across the Asia Pacific and retaking Taiwan at some point very clear. So I think all of that has been important. And I commend the strong steps that my country has made, the current administration has made with regard to India. I will tell you, though, It's a fair question. That's part of a larger issue about tariffs that have been imposed. I know the administration has imposed strong tariffs on India, but they related those tariffs directly to India's purchase of Russian oil. And I have great concerns about the broad based unilateral tariffs against friend and foe alike that this administration has advanced. I'm someone that believes in free trade with free nations. I think we need to be tough on authoritarian nations that abuse trade. But with regard to free nations around the world, I think my hope is that our country will get back to looking for ways to lower tariffs and lower non tariff barriers.
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Interviewer
Just to be brief, would you encourage the US And Donald Trump to reverse tariffs on India and the European Union?
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Mike Pence
Well, I, I'd like to see the negotiations where we're lowering tariffs. But let me be very clear. The secondary sanctions I get the difference that are being considered now would be to say to nations like China, like India, like other nations that essentially are fueling the Russian war machine by purchasing energy that those days are there'll be a high price to be paid. I really do believe that if the United States and our European allies came together with a combination of renewed military support, strong economic sanctions, and even considering claiming those frozen Russian assets that are available to obtain that all of that is what's going to be required to bring Putin to the table. Vladimir Putin only understands strength. Yeah, a united stand by the west is how we'll get Putin and Russia to the table and hopefully achieve that just and lasting peace.
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Paddy O'Connell
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service people shaping our world from all over the world.
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Paddy O'Connell
For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to Mike Pence, the former Republican US Vice President who served during the first Trump administration. Our conversation took place just two weeks ago, before news emerged of Russian attack drones flying over NATO member Poland. Global security was one of the many issues that the former vice president discussed. There was something very interesting for me, which we didn't see in this interview and didn't hear in this interview. There was a Big delay. He was in the BBC's Brussels office and there was a 25 minute technical delay. And without doubt, Mr. Pence was one of the most patient people I've ever dealt with in my years of doing this work. Many people on tight schedules can get very frustrated by these delays. There was a hum on the line, a buzz, and it turns out that perhaps one of the reasons is that he'd been a lifetime radio DJ himself across six or seven stations in the United States. And I sort of asked him, is it possible that the reason he was so patient is that he was actually a radio man himself? And he said yes. So that surprised me. Okay, let's return to our conversation with Mike Pence.
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Interviewer
You told us you don't really talk as much to Donald Trump as you did, and we remember your role certifying the election results in Congress, which the Donald Trump administration said were stolen. The election was stolen. You've just won this award, the John F. Kennedy Profiling Courage Award. Can you tell viewers how close you were to the insurgency in the capital? How much you heard of the approaching mob when they were trying to take the election result and get you to change them?
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Mike Pence
Well, first, let me say thank you for your gracious words. You know, January 6th was a tragic day, but I'll always believe, by God's grace, I did my duty that day to support the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution of the United States. The riot that took place at the Capitol was harrowing for many. We heard the crowds. But I must tell you, I've often said the safest place in the world is to be in the center of God's will. And I. I knew I was where I was supposed to be, doing what I was supposed to be doing. I had peace and resolve in that. And thanks to law enforcement on the scene, the riot was quelled. And what the world witnessed was that Republicans and Democrats in the Congress and in the Senate reconvened the very same day to complete our work and the peaceful transfer of power. I truly do believe what began as a day of tragedy ended as a triumph of freedom. And I'll always see it that way.
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Interviewer
And just as a flashback, did you look at the door of the chamber in which you were sitting and think at any moment those guys could come through the door? Did you think that?
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Mike Pence
I didn't. When. When I was escorted off of the floor of the Senate, I had been informed that there were some rioters in the building. But, you know, I actually served in Congress for 12 years before I was vice president. I had great confidence that law enforcement on the scene would be able to secure the Capitol. I never imagined that the day would unfold as it did. But. But when it did, ultimately, law enforcement did their job bravely. Even though they were outmanned at times, they. They fought on. They secured the capital. And again, I truly do believe that what the world I hope witnessed that day was the resilience of our institutions and the deep commitment of people in both political parties.
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Interviewer
I'm afraid what we did also witness, what is what we on many of us have been told is the post truth era in your country, that actually there are people, the J6 people, they want money off the US administration for being jailed for their part in that insurgency which you witnessed. So I'm afraid what we think is that you've crossed through the looking glass in the United States. I mean, let me bring this into the focus of one appointment. Do you support RFK Jr. As the health secretary? Is he the right man to secure the health of American children?
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Mike Pence
Well, I must tell you, I and my foundation in Washington, I think, were one of the very few voices to oppose his nomination as Secretary of Health and Human Services. It was on a range of issues, beginning for me with my pro life views. I'm pro life. I don't apologize for it. And the idea that we would have an abortion rights supporter leading a Republican administration's health department was anathema to me. But beyond that was just a number of his theories and his long standing record of vaccine skepticism and attacks on our pharmaceutical industry and courts. I just had great concerns about that. I spoke out against it. And I continue to hope that President Trump will have an opportunity for a fresh start at the Health and Human Services Department.
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Interviewer
That's diplomat speak for fire him, we understand. We've translated a translation there. Just on the question of compensation. Do you think they'll be successful, the jailed rioters, in getting dollars off the state?
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Mike Pence
Well, look, I've made it very clear that I disagreed with President Trump's decision to pardon any individual who assaulted a law enforcement officer on that day. I think it sent the wrong message. The American people, I think people that assaulted police officers, desecrated our Capitol should have been held to the fullest extent of the law. And I cannot imagine that absent people that were not caught up in the violence or people whose rights were violated, that there would be any, any justification for compensation for people who engaged in. In violence or vandalism that day.
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Interviewer
We're talking about it, and that's Why I mentioned to you it's painful for you to come to Europe and be told we think it's gone through the looking glass, the post truth world in the US because if you take for example the role of the vice president, J.D. vance, he said of critics in the Senate of RFK Jr. Which could notionally include your criticisms as well that they're full of. Is that a way for a vice president to speak and do you consider that he's speaking about you and your views?
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Mike Pence
Well, you'd probably have to ask my successor who he was speaking about. But I want to challenge you. I don't think America's through the looking glass. You know, I travel across our country all the time. It's good to be here in Brussels, been grateful for the meetings that we've had and will have. But, but as I go across the country, I still believe the American people have those same common sense values and virtues for which we're known and celebrated, the same generosity of spirit that the American people have already reflected. I'm very confident that someday soon we're going to have government as good as our people again.
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Interviewer
Okay, so that means that if Donald Trump ever speaks about running for a third term, you would say it's just a joke. That's not a post truth anti constitutional remark. For instance, my Constitution of the United.
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Mike Pence
States quite clear that presidents are entitled to two terms in office and the American people have every expectation that this president, many president will hear to that.
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Interviewer
It'S over for Donald Trump after 47. There's no question that he'll be the 48th president.
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Mike Pence
Well I, as I said, I think you, you've been generous in your comments about my field eat of the Constitution and I tell you I'm, I'm actually I, I think very typical in America. The American people cherish our Constitution, cherish our traditions and, and I believe they always will.
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Interviewer
Finally, we've mentioned J.D. vance. Do you think he's having a bigger role than you did? Are you jealous?
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Mike Pence
You know, I'll always count it a privilege to have been vice president with President Donald Trump. When I look at our four years and the close and personal relationship that we forged at a time that we rebuilt our military, we strengthened our relations with our allies, we stood up to our enemies around the world, we revived the American economy through tax cuts and deregulation. We appointed conservatives to our courts at every level. I'm proud of the record that we created. I pray for the president often, I pray for the vice president and I wish them well. But I don't spend a lot of time in the rearview mirror. I'm always eyes forward, always focused on those values that have always drawn me into public life.
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Interviewer
And then just on that question of you praying for the President, do you agree with him that it was an act of God which saved him from the assassination attempt?
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Mike Pence
I have to believe that God's grace was present that day. And I I couldn't be more grateful that the President was spared from that assassin's bullet. I remember I found out about it almost in real time. We were landing an airplane back in Indiana when the news just broke and I I immediately went to Twitter. I grabbed my wife's hand. We prayed for the President, not knowing his condition, and we urge people around the country to pray earnestly for him. And I'm grateful he was spared. I'm grateful the nation was spared. And I'll continue as I promised him one day before we left the White House. I'll always pray for our President and his family.
- [24:15]
Paddy O'Connell
Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with AJ Banger, President of the World Bank, Colombian artist Doris Salcedo and Prince Harry.
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Interviewer
Until the next time.
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Paddy O'Connell
Bye for now.
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