Podcast Summary: The Interview with Mike Pence

Podcast: The Interview, BBC World Service
Episode Title: Mike Pence: US will soon get deserving government
Date: September 14, 2025
Host: Paddy O’Connell

Overview

This episode features a candid conversation with former US Vice President Mike Pence. The discussion centers on America's standing in the world, US-European relations, the war in Ukraine, the legacy of the Trump administration, Pence’s perspective on the January 6 Capitol attack, issues of truth and democracy, and Pence’s view of the country's future. The episode delves into Pence’s evolving relationship with Donald Trump, his positions on security and international sanctions, and reflections on constitutional principles and political transitions in the US.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The US and Europe: NATO, Ukraine, and Transatlantic Unity

[04:00-05:16]

• Strengthening NATO: Pence asserts that US-European ties have strengthened in the face of Russian aggression in Ukraine. Despite the Trump administration’s push for NATO allies to do more, Pence believes unity has grown in the wake of Russia’s invasion.

  • Quote: "Putin's action in Ukraine has measurably contributed to the unity between the United States and our European allies. And the NATO alliance has never been stronger." – Mike Pence [04:18]

• On US Support and ‘Stops and Starts’: Pence addresses criticism of Trump’s inconsistent policies, emphasizing overall continuity in aid to Ukraine but pushing for the US Senate to impose “secondary sanctions” on Russia to further pressure Putin.

  • Quote: "I think the time has come for renewed and additional sanctions by the United States, and I'm going to continue to call for that along with our allies as well." – Mike Pence [07:20]

• Frozen Russian Assets: Pence advocates for considering the seizure of frozen Russian bank accounts to fund Ukrainian defense.

  • Quote: "I think everything should be on the table, including seizing frozen accounts." – Mike Pence [09:06]

2. Relationship with Donald Trump and Current Administration

[07:28-08:01, 07:42, 20:28]

• Pence acknowledges he and Trump no longer speak frequently but expresses pride in their former collaboration.

  • Quote: "The President and I don't talk as much as we used to. I'm proud of the relationship we enjoyed for four years. I'm proud of the record we created." – Mike Pence [07:42]

• Pence offers nuanced support and critique, emphasizing policy over personalities and calling for continued pressure on Russia while still attributing “peacemaker” qualities to Trump.

3. Geopolitics: China, India, and Trade Policy

[10:59-12:48]

• Sanctions on Russian Energy: Pence wants the US and allies to penalize third parties like India and China who continue purchasing Russian oil, linking it to military support for Ukraine.
• Tariffs: While in favor of targeted sanctions, Pence criticizes broad tariffs on friendly nations and advocates for free trade with democratic countries.
  • Quote: "I'm someone that believes in free trade with free nations. I think we need to be tough on authoritarian nations that abuse trade." – Mike Pence [12:16]

4. January 6th, Democracy, and 'Post-Truth' America

[15:44-18:44]

• Pence’s Experience on January 6th: He describes the Capitol attack as “tragic” but insists he fulfilled his constitutional duty. He credits law enforcement and the resilience of institutions in seeing through the democratic process.

  • Quote: "I'll always believe, by God's grace, I did my duty that day to support the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution of the United States." – Mike Pence [16:16]
  • Quote: “I truly do believe what began as a day of tragedy ended as a triumph of freedom. And I'll always see it that way.” – Mike Pence [17:09]

• Personal Safety and Perspective: Pence says he never feared directly for his safety but underscores the unprecedented nature of the events.

  • Quote: "I never imagined that the day would unfold as it did. But... law enforcement did their job bravely." – Mike Pence [17:24]

• Compensation for Rioters & Pardons: Pence strongly opposes pardons and compensation for those who committed violence on January 6.

  • Quote: "I disagreed with President Trump's decision to pardon any individual who assaulted a law enforcement officer on that day. I think it sent the wrong message." – Mike Pence [19:51]

5. Health Policy and Cabinet Appointments

[18:44-19:37]

• RFK Jr. as Health Secretary: Pence openly opposes RFK Jr.'s appointment due to pro-choice views and vaccine skepticism, urging Trump to make a change.
  • Quote: "The idea that we would have an abortion rights supporter leading a Republican administration's health department was anathema to me." – Mike Pence [18:44]

6. On the US Constitution and the 'Looking Glass'

[20:57-22:27]

• Rejecting the ‘Post-Truth’ Narrative: Despite interviewer skepticism, Pence insists America retains its core strengths and values, emphasizing constitutional continuity and faith in the people’s collective spirit.

  • Quote: "I don't think America's through the looking glass... I still believe the American people have those same common sense values and virtues for which we're known and celebrated." – Mike Pence [20:57, repeated at [03:23]]

• Limits on Presidential Terms: Pence is unequivocal that the law bars a president from serving more than two terms, dismissing the notion of a Trump third term as contrary to the Constitution.

  • Quote: "My Constitution of the United States [is] quite clear that presidents are entitled to two terms in office and the American people have every expectation that this president... will hear to that." – Mike Pence [21:49]

7. Reflections on Vice Presidency & Faith

[22:37-23:31]

• No Jealousy for Successors: Pence expresses contentment with his legacy and wishes successors well, focusing on principles rather than rivalry or regrets.
• Faith and Trump’s Assassination Attempt: Pence describes his belief in God’s grace in sparing Trump, recounting a personal moment of prayer on hearing the news.
  • Quote: "I'll always pray for our President and his family." – Mike Pence [23:31]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[The] NATO alliance has never been stronger.” – Mike Pence [04:18]
• “Putin doesn't want peace, he wants Ukraine. And he will only respond to strength and unity.” – Mike Pence [06:40]
• "I think everything should be on the table, including seizing frozen accounts." – Mike Pence [09:06]
• “I'll always believe, by God's grace, I did my duty that day to support the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution of the United States.” – Mike Pence [16:16]
• “[January 6] began as a day of tragedy [but] ended as a triumph of freedom.” – Mike Pence [17:09]
• “I disagreed with President Trump's decision to pardon any individual who assaulted a law enforcement officer on that day.” – Mike Pence [19:51]
• “I don't think America's through the looking glass... I still believe the American people have those same common sense values and virtues for which we're known and celebrated.” – Mike Pence [20:57, 03:23]
• “My Constitution of the United States [is] quite clear that presidents are entitled to two terms in office.” – Mike Pence [21:49]
• “I'll always pray for our President and his family.” – Mike Pence [23:31]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:23] Pence on the resilience of American values.
• [04:00] NATO and the transatlantic response to Russia/Ukraine.
• [07:20] Call for renewed US and European sanctions on Russia.
• [09:06] Support for seizing Russian frozen assets.
• [15:44] Reflections on January 6th and his experience during the Capitol riot.
• [18:44] Opposition to RFK Jr’s appointment as Health Secretary.
• [19:51] Opposition to pardons and compensation for January 6 rioters.
• [20:57, 03:23] Defense of American values and rejection of “post-truth” narrative.
• [21:49] On presidential term limits and dismissing the idea of a third Trump term.
• [23:31] On faith and the aftermath of the Trump assassination attempt.

Tone and Language

The conversation is measured and respectful throughout. Pence relies on language rich in faith, constitutionalism, and traditional American optimism. He is consistently diplomatic—even when critical—and emphasizes the need for unity, the rule of law, and moral clarity in the face of political and geopolitical turbulence.

Closing Reflection

This episode offers rare insight into Mike Pence’s mindset post-vice presidency: hopeful for the country’s future, grounded in constitutional principles, and still wrestling with the legacy and contentious events surrounding Donald Trump. Through discussions on foreign affairs, domestic turbulence, and his own brush with political turbulence, Pence projects steadiness, faith, and a call for government “as good as our people again.”