Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (3:20)

Yes, our president made it clear that Russia would be ready to mediate. But for this to happen, we need consent of two sides. Iranians, to my mind would be happy to see Russia as a negotiate as a mediator. Americans, they said publicly. President Trump said we don't need any mediators. We will do everything ourselves. Of course, if we are involved in the process, we will not play a role of a postman. We will try to help both sides to find common language. Theoretically, I don't know this. The situation is very complicated. But of course we would be ready to help the two sides to find mutually acceptable solutions.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (4:16)

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov. We have already seen strikes on nuclear sites, disruptions around Hormuz Straits. Would you still give time and effort to negotiations or. We have already passed that stage and we are dealing and managing the consequences of a failed negotiation.

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (4:45)

Well, it's a theoretical question. To my mind, the war was not justifiable. Absolutely. There was no reason to start aggression against Iran. Everything could have been negotiated by peaceful means. I am absolutely sure. You know, the process of negotiations leaves rather strange impression to my mind. The process is not well organized, well coordinated. I see unpredictable steps, especially by the United States. To my mind, the Americans made the wrong choice. They put major pressure on the campaign of intimidation of Iranians. It does not work with the Iranian side. They can withstand pressure of this kind of as always. But atmosphere is not conducive for successful negotiations. And what makes me absolutely unhappy is the fact that Americans live alone Israelis they undermine the non proliferation treaty. As a matter of fact, for example, the treaty allows its non nuclear weapon states to use nuclear sinks for peaceful purposes. In case of Iran, Americans insist on total dismantlement or cancellation of the nuclear program. It goes against the treaty. It undermines the balance of the treaty between nuclear weapons and peaceful uses of nuclear energy. The same with so called zero enrichment. Under the treaty, Iranians have absolutely have the right to enrich Iranian US side.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (7:03)

They are saying that Iran is lancing these negotiations not just now, for the past 20 years, about quarter of a century. They are doing these negotiations. In the other administrations of the US they had team of experts who did the negotiations.

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (7:19)

And we made very significant progress. At the time when Rok Mali was special envoy for Iran for Iranian nuclear deal. We practically agreed on the conditions for restoration of the jcpoa, and the negotiations failed at the very last moment due to some subjective reasons. I don't want to point my finger at anybody, but I believe it was collective fault. We stopped just five meters from the finish line. It was very regrettable, but you have

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (8:05)

already been very criticizing about how the EU or the US treating Iran. You've been open about that. What do you think is the main issue with the west and Iran in these negotiations?

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (8:22)

I believe what is lacking in this case is proper respect to Iran on the part of E3 and the United States. As a matter of fact, Western countries stopped negotiations on the restoration of the jcpoa. They blocked and did not participate in the negotiations. First, E3 disappeared from Vienna. They do not agree with that. But then they managed to hide and nobody saw them. Americans continued for a certain period of time, but later on they apparently came to the conclusion that I don't know what kind of conclusions they made, but actually a positive result was absolutely feasible. I judge as a person who was inside the process and who has some experience in doing such things. And you know, when, for example, E3 left negotiations, they started to put pressure on Iran. In the Board of Governors of the iaea, instead of negotiations, they started to put pressure. Iranians, they don't understand such language. They resist.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (9:51)

Of course, these can happen on days, or we have to look into weeks

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (9:56)

or months, I don't know. But take a look at the Vienna talks on restoration of the JCPOE. We started in April of 2021 and finished in March of 2022, almost one year. And it's normal. And we met on a regular basis. Of course, when Americans expect that everything can be settled at once, it can be so only if Iran capitulates. But Iranians are ready to fight for their interests on diplomatic and military fronts.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (10:37)

What can the role of Russia be in this situation? Russia has already said that it wants to be the mediator.

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (10:44)

Yes, our president made it clear that Russia would be ready to mediate. But for this to happen, we need consent of two sides. Iranians, to my mind, would be happy to see Russia as a mediator. Americans, they said publicly, President Trump said, we don't need any mediators. We will do everything ourselves. Of course, if we are involved in the process, we will not play a role of a postman. We will try to help both sides to find common language. In the past, we were quite successful in this regard. In the course of the Vienna talks, on many occasions, we managed to find solutions Acceptable to everybody and our counterparts, be it European Union Americans or Chinese and Iranians. They recognized that our role was quite positive. Theoretically. I don't know this, the situation is very complicated. But of course we would be ready to help the two sides to find mutually acceptable solutions.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (11:58)

And what would be the peaceful outcome for Russia? Because some media reports would say that Russia benefited from this war quite a lot.

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (12:08)

It's ridiculous. It's an assessment made by unqualified propagandists and analysts, if I may call them analysts. This short period of when the prices on oil go up, it is very short. It's not strategic. Just 55 days and it may end up any moment. So we cannot take this trend as something of strategic importance for the Russian Federation. And our position is quite clear. We want peace to be restored. It is stated at all levels. And once again we are ready to undertake practical steps in order to come back to peace for Persian Gulf states, for the United States, by the way, who made big mistake when they started this war of aggression.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (13:12)

Again, if we go back to that point, because they have struck the Iranian nuclear plants and things like that, it's outrageous.

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (13:21)

And you know why? Because these nuclear plants facilities were certified by the International Atomic Energy Agency as purely peaceful facilities. The inspectors, they spend there a lot of time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Iran is the most verifiable country. Thousands of inspections. The agency knows everything about what was going on. So Americans and Israelis attacked peaceful facilities.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (13:59)

So you're saying outrageous that what Israel was saying was totally baseless.

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (14:04)

No information, no evidence. The agency issued dozens of reports, never reported about military side of events. Apparently according to the agency and to the American intelligence community, by the way, there was a period in the beginning of this millennium when probably they Iranians, some agencies at least undertook experiments with uranium. So allegedly there were some wrongdoings. But Iranians themselves stopped these activities before they became known to the international community.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (14:46)

You believe them? Have you had any kind of inspection from your side, from Russian side to support this idea that Iran never wanted

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (14:57)

any, we trust professionals from the International Atomic Energy Agency. By the way, there are some Russian people among them professionals in monitoring and verifying compliance with the NPT with the safeguards agreement. So once again we are not aware of any military activities in nuclear field and nobody can provide any evidence to the contrary.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (15:30)

You are listening to the interview from the BBC World Service Service with me, Farnoz Kozizode

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Farnaz Ghazizadeh (16:13)

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Farnaz Ghazizadeh (16:42)

I had followed Mikhail Ivanovich Olianov for years before I met him because he was a familiar face. His bluntness was always making headlines in this roller coaster of negotiation between Iran and the west over the nuclear program. He became the Russian envoy in Vienna just before Trump came out of JCPOA. JCPOA was Iran's nuclear deal in 2015, when years and years and negotiation end up to this deal between Iran and the west over the nuclear issue. And when I arrived to Russian mission in Vienna, the courtyard was beautiful. There was a fountain in the middle. So we entered this building. It was a beautiful marble kind of entrance and in there I met Mr. Oleano for the first time. I hadn't seen him before. When we talked, he was so forward about defending Iran and also criticizing US and EU in the way they negotiated with Iran over the years. At the same time he was keen to underline something else that Russia was keen to be a mediator in this diplomatic path forward. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Mikhail ivanovich Olyanov. The IAEA's board of governors a few times criticized Iran because of different things. Why they don't go to the negotiations, why they don't cooperate with the IAEA's mission. Do you think Iran has been doing his part on this situation?

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (18:22)

Well, first of all, I don't know when Iranians refused to negotiate. They are always ready if the other side, be it the Secretariat of the agency or E3 or the United States, if they are ready for serious negotiations, if they demonstrate normal respect to the Iranian side, they do not close the door for negotiations.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (18:52)

And one of the main issues is that 400 kilos of uranium enriched till 60%, which is now in the middle

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (19:00)

of this for Americans, yes. For Europeans, yes. For me, no. Let me explain. It was not occasional that Iranians started to enrich uranium up to 60%. They complied fully with the JCPOA which allowed them to enrich uranium to 3.67%. And they always fully complied with these provisions until the time when Americans withdrew from the JCPOE. For the first year, from May of 2018 when Americans left the nuclear deal and up to May of 2019 when Americans started maximum pressure campaign, Iranians fully complied with the JCPOA unilaterally.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (19:52)

Would Russia take that 400 kilos that already causing so much?

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (19:57)

If Americans and Iranians agree on this point, I believe almost for sure Russia would be ready to remove highly enriched uranium to the Russian territory. It's quite possible. But it's for the in what forms? There are various options. I want to say that everything should be decided upon at negotiation table because there are different options. Americans want to remove the enriched uranium to the United States. Iranians claim that they want this uranium to stay on the territory of Iran. Iran and they have the right. There is an option of down blending the highly enriched uranium from high level of enrichment to low level of enrichment. It's also an option then removal to the Russian Federation. It's for the two sides to come to a unified position. I cannot judge.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (20:59)

Do you see that happening soon?

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (21:01)

If Americans recognize that there is non proliferation Treaty which was initiated by the way by the US and the Soviet Union. It's a cornerstone of international security. If they comply with this treaty in a sense that they must recognize that Iranians can do some things in nuclear sphere under international control as provided by the safeguards agreement by the non proliferation Treaty. If Americans recognize these obvious facts, I believe a solution may be found quite soon.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (21:42)

Let's move to Bushe facilities. What is the situation at the moment?

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (21:47)

As far As I know, 20 to 50 persons of Russian origin still remain on the territory of the plant. They remain there in order to monitor the safety of the equipment and construction materials.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (22:09)

There has been attacks close to the

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (22:11)

Bush facilities, very close to 250 meters.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (22:16)

Was there any damage to the facilities?

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (22:18)

Yes, damage was done once. On the 5th of April, one people was killed. Iranian national was killed as a result of missile attack. Missiles exploded 250 meters from operational reactor. If they miss or if they affect the reactor, the consequences would have been extremely negative for the whole region. Like Chernobyl disaster in the Persian Gulf. Not only Iranians but also Arab countries of the Gulf would be affected very severely. We undertook a number of demarches in Washington and Jerusalem. Underlying that, it's intolerable.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (23:13)

There is a ceasefire going on, but any moment the war can start. What is your take on that? Do you think they are going to start the war again?

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (23:24)

I don't know. But if we want to avoid the resumption of military activities, and if we want to avoid nuclear disaster which also might take place, we need to start normal negotiations with due patience. The negotiators should sit together and work until the final product is elaborated. So far we observe something different and from professional viewpoint, it's not normal.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (23:59)

I would say you are a professional diplomat. For years and years and years you worked in this environment. If you had to send a message to Tehran and to Washington, what would that be?

Mikhail Ivanovich Olyanov (24:12)

Guys, let's be serious. Let's stick to businesslike efforts. Let's look at mutually acceptable solutions. If you need our help, we stand ready to provide our assistance.

Farnaz Ghazizadeh (24:33)

Thank you for listening to the interview. You will find more in depth conversation on the interview whenever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Okraine's President Volodymy Zelensky and Antonio Guterres, Secretary General of the un, plus many more. Until the next time. Bye for now.

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