MPO Lagaje (2:22)

President Nandinda Aytua is a former freedom fighter and veteran of the ruling Southwest Africa People's Organization, better known as swapo. The legacy of the apartheid she fought still looms large in Namibian politics. Land reform has been an ongoing priority since independence in 1990, yet most agricultural landscape still remains in the hands of the white minority. Namibia's former colonial power. Germany apologized in 2021 for the genocide under its rule, but development funding promised has not yet materialized. Despite her formidable intra, she tells me she still has time for family, for the field and for making food. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Netumbo Nandinde, President of Namibia.

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (3:13)

In the world, including Africa, we have very few women president. But the most important person is that the people have voted the person among other citizens, the one they feel will be able to carry the country forward to build on the strong foundation that is created by our first president, our second president, our third president and our fourth president. So that is really what the people look at. It was on your merit that the people who nominated and supported looked at you. But it's a good thing that we as nations, as countries, we are realizing that just as mentioned, women can also hold the position of authority in our respective countries.

Interviewer (4:11)

But does that then put pressure on you? Do you feel that there are extra expectations from you considering that you are a female leader?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (4:22)

Yeah, to a certain extent. Because unfortunately the emphasis now is not only tumba the person, the emphasis is on women. And it's like doing extremely well. I believe it will still be taken that women can do it, but if anything then happen like what it can happen in any administration under men that we see them there also those who not talk about Netumbo, but rather says look at women. So that's to a certain extent it's a pressure, but I would want to lead in the way I feel is the best for the Namibian people. And I believe that is the characteristics which the people have seen in me. Of course I would want young girls, young women also to take up that courage and to accept a position of responsibility so that we can dispel that myth of inequality between men and women in as far what we can both do in the public life.

Interviewer (5:35)

You see there's context to this. I'm asking these questions because you know, we saw what recently happened in Nigeria. Senator Natasha Akpoti Adwagan says she's been facing sexual harassment at work. So I wonder what goes through your mind when you hear stories like these, especially in relation to this particular topic, in relation to female leaders.

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (6:03)

You know, I'm a woman activist and I have been and I will continue to fight against, to fight gender based violence. That is not a unique story coming from Nigeria. We are hearing it all over the world that women are being sexually victimized. You are hearing women being asked sex favor in order maybe to be employed or to be promoted. And of course it's a very, very difficult issue to deal with because not all the victims are Ready to come out for the issues to be dealt with. But definitely, one cannot rule it out, but we have to fight it. The laws are there, but laws on themselves, they don't mean anything. It's people that have to implement.

Interviewer (7:05)

Right. I would like us to move on to other equally pressing issues. I would like us to talk about some of your country's challenges. Land reform is among them. We know that white people in Namibia continue to own the majority of agricultural land, which means that black people really don't have much of a say. This is troubling, is it not?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (7:33)

You are right in a way, but maybe not necessarily the full statement as you are making it. Truly, land is a serious problem in this country because the colonizers, they have taken land away from the citizens. It's one of the countries, if not among the few, where you have quite a chunk of land which is fenced off at independence. We have to work on our constitution. One of the elements is the land rights, that the land belong to the state, except that one is privately owned, which can be expropriated with fair compensation. Knowing what was happening in Namibia, the hatred that has been there between black and whites, our founding president declared the policy of national reconciliation. So we then say, fine, we will not go to outright expropriation, but let us have a policy of willing buyer, willing seller. So quite a number of farms were bought by the government and people resettled. Then we start to have now the land tax and that to a certain extent is pushing some to sell it so that we have land redistribution. But it's true, we still have some of our white citizens and more particularly the absent land owners who are occupying the land. We have now a law on the land bill which was owned recently, finalized in terms of drafting. And it is my hope and my wish for that law to be to be passed.

Interviewer (9:34)

But please allow me to push you a little bit, Madam President. I would argue that many of these interventions that you've just mentioned have failed because land continues to be at the hands of the wide population. It means that none of these interventions have succeeded.

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (9:54)

I don't really think if you can say that none of them. It's only that at this stage I cannot give you the number of hectares of land that the government has bought and hectares of land which some farmers have handed over. They are quite a number and there is quite a number of people who are resettled. There is progress that has been made, but of course not everything is done to our satisfactory. And that's why even in the swap election manifesto of 2025, 2030. We are now saying we have to push for this land bill to be enacted because if you do something in Namibia without really being empowered by the law, you just create a problem.

Interviewer (10:51)

This is a very tricky issue because I would imagine you have to address the issue of land without upsetting global players. I have no idea. You would have seen what happened to South Africa. President Cyril Ramaphosa spoke about land expropriation and Donald Trump, the President of the United States, became extremely upset.

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (11:18)

Yeah, for us, one can be upset, but it will be a consent to me, it will be a consent to the government if something was done outside the Namibian laws. But if we are doing it in accordance to our laws will not allow interference.

Interviewer (11:40)

Speaking of America, what is Namibia's attitude towards the Trump administration?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (11:47)

It's really not Namibia to have an attitude towards the Trump administration because it's an administration that is elected by the Americans and the Americans are happy about it. So for us, we have no reason to to have an attitude, but we believe in cooperation with other states of the world within the framework of international instruments that are guiding the relationship between member states.

Interviewer (12:24)

Right. What sort of relationship are you hoping to have with President Donald Trump? Do you call him? Does he call you?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (12:34)

I have not talked to President Trump, but I received a letter under his signature congratulating me when I was elected in November. Also, I looked at our protocol list of those who are coming to our 35th anniversary, as well as to the inauguration. And the recent envoy from President Tramba's office who is representing the government of America.

MPO Lagaje (13:13)

You are listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world with me.

Interviewer (13:22)

M' pos la gaje.

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MPO Lagaje (13:58)

For this episode, I'm speaking to Netumbo Nandinde, Namibia's first female president. Now on my way to the old state house in the capital, Vernhoek, I noticed lots of flags flying across the central business district. It was two days before the nation celebrated 35 years of independence. When I arrived at our interview venue, I was greeted by the President's entourage, who comprised mostly women. And I have to be honest, they were really friendly and helpful. Moments later, President Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa slowly walked into the room, shook my hand, asked me my name before we both took a seat. What I saw was a confident and warm motherly figure. Okay, let's turn to my conversation with Natumbu Nandi Ndaitwa.

Interviewer (14:53)

I would like us to talk about the issue of youth unemployment. I'm looking at some statistics here. According to the World Bank, Namibia was able to halve the proportion of citizens living below the national poverty line to nearly 30% in the first two decades of independence. So this sounds like progress, but then youth unemployment remains a challenge. How are you looking to deal with this?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (15:22)

Yes, youth unemployment is a challenge. From 2019 upward, our unemployment rate has gone up. And that is because during the COVID period the whole economy shut down. And you know, ours is a very small economy. The population is. Last year statistics are the only one that Give us now 3.0 something million as a population. And any drop that causes a shake in the country's economy would have a long effect. But what we are going to do, we have identified in our election manifesto some of the sectors that we have really to look into seriously as part of the job creation. We are talking about the agriculture and we have to engage into serious irrigation, agricultural irrigation programs. And then when we increase our agricultural production, we are also talking now about agro processing. We have to get into the industry. We have also to create jobs in other sectors like the creative industry, the fishing industry. And also you might be aware that Namibia is a mineral based economy and this is going very well. At least 15% of the continental raw material should not leave the continent unprocessed because in so doing we are just exporting labor and then leave our young people in the continent unemployed and to retrain them. For example, now in Namibia we have discovered oil and gas. So now our educational institution have to retrain our young people, rescale them, give them new skills.

Interviewer (17:29)

It sounds good, but I would say that it sounds good on paper. I'm just wondering how practical this is. I'm asking this question because you mentioned energy and I know that Namibia's green hydrogen, a big chunk of it goes to Germany, even though you have electricity problems of your own. So I just wonder if projects like that would be more beneficial to your people or will be solving the problems of Europe.

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (17:59)

It all depends on how you are designing it. Even if they have to solve the problem of Europe when it comes to energy. It's not the Germans who are coming to create that energy here. It will be Namibians who will be working in those factories. And really we have also to make sure that some of it is living here. When I talk about oil and gas, who is going to save these companies? You talk about catering, you talk about engineering work, you talk about servicing their machines. We need to train the Namibians for them to do this work. And the green hydrogen is mostly on transport. That's where it's mostly used. And for us, if we have oil and gas with oil, we can transport with the oil and then we can benefit from what is coming from the green hydrogen in order for us to invest in other sectors, because those industries they can create job.

Interviewer (19:10)

In 2021, Namibia's former colonizer Germany apologized for the killings of 65,000 Herero and 10,000 Nama people.

MPO Lagaje (19:22)

Now, in addition to its apology, the.

Interviewer (19:24)

European nation promised to fund development projects worth more than a billion dollars. How far are you with that process?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (19:35)

Yeah, first, what is at stake here is not really funding development project. You know, this process has started after our parliament discussed the issue of German genocide against the Namibian people and where more than half of the population of the communities in which they were operating were extinguished. We then our parliament took a decision and directed the Namibian government to engage the German government for three things to happen. One, for Yemen to accept that they have committed genocide in Namibia. Number two, for Yemen to apologize and number three, for Yemen to give reparation. They agree, and we start using the word genocide in the documents. And then they agree that they will be coming to Namibia and apologize to the Namibian people. The Namibian people have to decide the format of the apology and where it can be done. But then in the negotiation we were saying, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. So then we came now to the reparation. That is where we spend a lot of time. Because while they were offering, it started very, very, very, very low. Until now we reached it to the 1.1 billion euro. And that again, when we took it to our parliament, our parliament felt that is nothing. And we engaged the Germans. And then the Germans say, fine, we will be ready to give additional funding to the programs that are going to be conducted within the framework of reparation. We have not yet completely finalized the negotiation. We have a joint declaration was brought to our parliament and some amendments were made. We have at least reached to a certain level. And because we were having elections, it has become difficult for us really to finalize. So we agree with the Germans, we can do it early January. But you remember, you know what is happening in Germany. They had a government that collapsed. We are waiting the two governments to have their two governments in place so that the process could be concluded.

Interviewer (22:23)

Just to be clear, the stumbling block.

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (22:26)

Right now is Germany, because they were in their elections.

Interviewer (22:31)

But are they happy with everything so far?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (22:34)

Are they willing to comply to our understanding? What we have agreed now with them is what is the understanding of both parties? So it's now the question of refining and make sure that truly all the parties have agreed and then it can be signed.

Interviewer (22:54)

Are there time frames?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (22:57)

Not necessary time frame. But the document was ready to the extent that even our cabinet have taken a decision authorizing the minister to sign. So definitely, I cannot see it. I cannot say definitely. But as a person who's following the process, unless something really dramatically happened, I cannot see this process going to next year.

Interviewer (23:28)

Finally, on a lighter note, when Madam President is not engaged in politics, what do you do?

Netumbo Nandi Ndaitwa (23:34)

I cook. I take care of my grandchildren. You have to live a natural life, not artificial. It's no good. I go to the village. I like to be in the field doing the normal traditional work. I enjoyed it a lot. You are cultivating, you are harvesting and play with the kids. It's very nice, refreshing. Basically, I like that being with my grandchildren. I just like to be with company people. You talk? Yeah. When you're in the village, you say. You say family.

MPO Lagaje (24:16)

Thank you so much for listening to. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service, a conversation with Natumbo Nandi Ndaitwa, Namibia's first female president. If you enjoyed today's program, you can listen to the interview twice a week, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Until next time. Bye for now.