Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (3:42)

Elections are important because if people are elected, they have a mandate from the people and they will have legitimacy. And because of that legitimacy, it will be difficult for other groups to seek to displace them through violence. Salva Kirna, his Legitimacy ended since 2015, and he should have been seeking a new mandate from the people if he wants to continue running the country.

BBC Presenter (James Copnell / Asma Khalid) (4:07)

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Nyal Daniel.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (4:12)

So you made a very dramatic announcement. What is your critique of South Sudan now, of the way it's being run?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (4:20)

In fact, I would say that South Sudan is being run down. The problems are huge. There's basically total failure of governance. Nothing is working. There is very serious political instability that has actually manifested itself in violence all across the country. There is intra communal violence, intercommunal violence, and of course, political violence. The economy is in shambles. The South Sudanese currency basically is now worthless. Life is extremely hard for most South Sudanese these days. We believe that this situation is being perpetuated by the refusal of the regime, President Salvakir personally, to allow the transition to run its course after the conclusion of the peace agreement in 2018. Provisions of those peace agreements have not been implemented. They are being implemented selectively and the implementation of CARE even is being violated. The agreement itself is being violated. The government is dragging its feet on implementation primarily because they do not want to see the transition run its full course. Because if that were to happen, the transition would end in free and fair elections and in all likelihood, the current regime would be voted out of office by the people of South Sudan.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (5:28)

You think President Salva Kir would lose elections even given the historical weight of his party, the splm, which took South Sudan to its independence. Even given its control of the mechanics of government, you think he would lose elections?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (5:41)

Yeah, I think the SPLM is potentially a very weighty political outfit, but it has been basically destroyed, has been completely dismantled by President Silva himself. First and foremost, he basically tossed aside the vision of the splm. So although the government of the Republic of South Sudan is an SPLM run government, there are no policies that emanate from the SPLM to inform government programs and actions. So the SPLM is just like now an ornament. And secondly, he has emptied the SPLM of its cadres. I mean, the SPLM now its leaders have been dismissed, they've been humiliated and they've been replaced by people who even at one point in time were actually fighting the SPLM or hostile to the splm. So the SPLM basically does not exist any longer. And so there is no plan, there is no program, you know, for running the country.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (6:31)

Do you put that firmly on Salvaquir President Salva Kiyamadi's shoulders? There is a theory out there, the liberation Curse, that says that the people who take a country to its liberation, to its freedom, the freedom fighters, often are very bad in government. The skills required to be a rebel leader are very different to those required to run a modern country. And that sort of critique would fall not just on Salva Kiir, but on others, including perhaps you, who've been at the heart of South Sudan's political life for decades.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (7:03)

Yeah, you can say that the failure of the SPLM is a collective responsibility in the sense that people like myself who have been part of the leadership for quite long, haven't spoken out, basically haven't taken action. But it is not necessarily true that liberators are not good in running governments. As a matter of fact, the splm, when you compare it to other liberation movements, is quite unique in the sense that it actually started preparing itself for governance responsibilities. Meanwhile, it was still in the bush. As a matter of fact, most of our SPLA commanders, especially when we were about to sign the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, were sent abroad to undertake courses that are relevant to governments and to provide them with the skills. Because in government you need different skill set than when you are in the bush. So this has happened. A lot of cadres have been prepared for responsible government. But the President and the chairman of the splm, Salva Kirmayadid, has not allowed the SPLM to do its work because, you know, shortly before the Comprehensive Peace Agreement was signed in 2005, he and the late Dr. John Garang our leader, had a fallout. And from that point onwards, Silva was suspecting that Garang was favoring some people in the leadership over him.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (8:16)

Including you, including myself, the so called Garang boys.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (8:18)

And then eventually he would be sent out. So he took it upon himself when he became the leader basically to dismantle the SPLM and overhauled it completely.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (8:28)

One of the stinging critiques in your statement was about the wealth of the country. South Sudan should be rich given its oil reserves. And yet I think it's true to say, whatever your political persuasion, that the people have not benefited from South Sudan's oil. Why?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (8:45)

Well, because those resources are not being put to good use. Those resources are not being used to provide service to the people. Those resources are not being utilized to provide security, to put in place law and order, to dispense justice. Even right now, people are being killed by helicopter gunships in an attempt by the government to disarm the civil population. You know, if the government wants to disarm the civil population, then they should go about it in the correct way, but to go about it in the correct way, which is essentially, you know, you go to warring communities, if you want to disarm them, then you make sure that the process disarmament exercise is concurrent, you see, because if you try to do it sequentially, you start with one group, the other group will not accept because they will suspect that we can't give up our arms because our foes on the other side are still bristling with guns, you know. But to do this, you need to avail resources. Law and order is supposed to be taken care of in South Sudan by the police, but the police itself is not provided with the resources. You see, the policemen are ill trained, they are understaffed, they can barely put food on the table, which is a problem for almost everybody in South Sudan today. So the fact that resources are being diverted for personal gain and not employed for running the government and providing service is the fundamental problem of South Sudan right now.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (10:09)

We had a situation where civil servants were not paid for about a year, even members of the military, which is of course a risky proposition for any state. And part of that is because South Sudan's great resource, oil is exported through Sudan's pipelines. A remnant of the fact when you were one country and the war in Sudan has stopped the oil being exported. Could more have been done though? Because that is such a vulnerability. And you see now South Sudanese civilians unable to afford two or three meals a day.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (10:42)

You see, as you mentioned yourself, I mean, South Sudan is endowed with enormous natural resources. Agriculture too, agriculture, livestock even. There is potential for mining. But you are supposed to use the oil resources to unlock your potential in other sectors, which has not happened because you can run an economy that is entirely dependent on oil, since you've got other resources. We have got to unlock the potential by investing oil money in opening up access to other resources. In fact, we used to say in the SPLM that we would want to take towns to the people. And basically what is meant by that is to diversify the economy, you see, make agriculture, make agriculture. And livestock actually should be the backbone of the economy in South Sudan. Because if you look at the population of South Sudan, if you look at the resources that people have, we've got the land, we have got water and we've got livestock. So basically it makes sense that you should focus on agriculture. So instead of using the money that we get from oil to unlock the agricultural potential and the livestock potential, and of course, not to mention the huge wildlife based tourism potential of South Sudan, all this money is being squandered, is being used for personal benefit.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (11:55)

We have seen great cuts to Western aid budgets, the US in particular, but also Britain and other countries. And that is having an impact in South Sudan in feeding people who desperately need it. Do you look at that then and say we need more help from Western countries? Or do you say actually as South Sudanese, we ought to be able to feed ourselves. We shouldn't have to rely on gifts, donations from foreign countries.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (12:24)

Yeah, both propositions are true. I mean, given our resources, we shouldn't be begging or asking for aid. But at the same time, our country has been brought to its knees by the government and we can dispense with, with international aid until such time as when we are able to stand on our own feet and then be able to provide for ourselves.

BBC Presenter (James Copnell / Asma Khalid) (12:49)

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world. America is changing and so is the world.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (13:02)

But what's happening in America is, isn't.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (13:04)

Just a cause of global upheaval.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (13:06)

It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

BBC Presenter (James Copnell / Asma Khalid) (13:10)

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (13:13)

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

BBC Presenter (James Copnell / Asma Khalid) (13:17)

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (13:22)

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Presenter (James Copnell / Asma Khalid) (13:30)

For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to the senior South Sudanese politician, Nyal Deng. Nyal, following his forthright Criticism of the President, there seems little immediate prospect of him returning to South Sudan. So our interview took place in the BBC studios here in London. Nyal seemed determined to make his words count. Before the interview, we chatted about one of his former careers as a professional basketball player. But once sat in front of a mic. The former minister turned what even his detractors accept as a first rate intellect onto what he sees as the collapse of South Sudan. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Nyah Deng Nyal.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (14:10)

You lay out a framework for progress in South Sudan which, and I'm going to summarise a long document, but essentially is based on free speech, a new constitution, free and fair elections. How would that help? Because one argument in South Sudan has always been this is such a divided society and groups often have guns to support their agendas. And elections can actually be a source of tension rather than something that resolves a problem.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (14:37)

Elections are absolutely critical because what's happening is that the gun culture is something that we have brought into government from the liberation process under struggle that we waged, helped us eventually liberate our people and get an independent South Sudan. But it has also come with a curse, you see. It has made violence an integral part of the political culture. If we do not set this aside, then we are heading for total collapse. The reason elections are important is because if people are elected, they have a mandate from the people. They will have legitimacy. And because of that legitimacy, it will be difficult for other groups to seek to displace them through violence, you see? So let us instill in South Sudan the political culture of democracy and tolerance, you see, because even Salva Kir now, he has lost his legitimacy. His Legitimacy ended since 2015, and he should have been seeking a new mandate from the people if he wants to continue running the country.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (15:38)

You'll be aware that Salvaquir's supporters would react very strongly to that. They would say, he's the president. No one else has been elected. He is a legitimate president.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (15:46)

He's a de facto president, but no longer a legitimate president. That's the point. We don't understand why Salva Kiir and his supporters would not try to seek a fresh mandate from the electorate, you see, because if there are no elections, if people like Rick Machar and other people holding arms are not given the opportunity to vie for political power through the ballot box, they will continue to fight. There will be armed resistance and they would be justified in doing that.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (16:10)

You mentioned Riek Masha there. He broke with the SPLM during The long war against Khartoum. At the time of one Sudan, he was the opposing side to Salva Kiir during the civil war that broke out in 2013. We've seen peace deals. He's been back in government a couple of times as first vice president. He's currently facing treason charges in Juba right now. Do you feel that whole court process is a legitimate one?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (16:36)

I think what is important, irrespective of what's going on, if at all, I'm not privy to the circumstances surrounding the charges that have been levelled against Dr. Yang Machar, but if at all people feel that he has a case to answer, then let that process be established in accordance with the law. I mean, let the decision turn on the legal merits of the case. But we have to be very, very careful to steer clear of any political manipulation of the process. In other words, if there is need to prosecute Rek Machar and his associates, then let there be an attempt at criminal prosecution, but let us not engage in activities that would basically disguise political persecution as criminal prosecution.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (17:17)

Is that what you fear is happening right now?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (17:19)

I am afraid that's going to happen.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (17:20)

And the potential consequences of that in South Sudan, which is already split partly on ethnic lines or community lines with Rek Machara Nua Salvaquira could be very, very serious indeed.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (17:31)

Yeah. The situation is already very bad, and it could be even worse. If people feel that the trial of Dr. Rehg Machiary is a sham, it's political, not really criminal, then there will be a problem. Then there will be a problem, definitely. And I believe that the situation can't get any worse than it already is. So I fear to think of the consequences if the trial of Dr. Rinki is not handled properly.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (17:54)

Is a return to outright war a possibility?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (17:57)

There's already a lot of clashes right now. The SSPDF is fighting Splmiu in different parts of the country.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (18:03)

So that's the government army against Riek Machados.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (18:05)

Exactly. So the ceasefire has completely broken down and there is fighting all over the country. And I believe that the government is even aggravating it further by its actions. I think yesterday there was bombardment in parts of Taunt east where civilians got killed. I mean, as I mentioned before, they are not going about the process of disarming the civil pollution in the correct manner. I mean, it's a totally disproportionate response by the government using helicopter gunships. And these helicopter gunships, if you look at the victims of the bombing, they are all civilians, women and children. Not even in the case of Nasser. I don't know how many White army or SPLA IO were killed by helicopter gunships.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (18:50)

So Nasser was this incident in which the White Army, a new youth militia, attacked the town of Nasser. Very strong government response. And that is the basis for the trial of Rek Macha. He's seen as being close to him. But you see that as a disproportionate response by your former colleagues in government.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (19:07)

No, I mean, the government is fully entitled to fight its enemies. But in doing so, you shouldn't be killing women and children. That's what's happening in many parts of the country right now as we speak.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (19:18)

Do you feel, as many in South Sudan do, that President Salva Kiir is preparing Benjamin Bolmel as his successor? He's been appointed as vice president. Someone who doesn't have the same liberation struggle credentials as many of the old guard of South Sudanese politics like yourself do.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (19:37)

The indications are that that is probably what he's trying to do. But that's not the problem. That's not the issue. The issue is basically anybody that assumes power in Juba, even if that person has been handpicked or designated by Salva Kir, that person has to have the support, the blessings of the SPLM as a political party and of the country. In free and fair elections. Any South Sudanese citizen can seek to be the president. But you have to be chosen by the people. Otherwise that would create problems.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (20:10)

South Sudan's short post independence history, but even if you go back before its independence is full of examples of dissidents taking up arms and then afterwards coming back into government. You formed a new movement. Will it be a peaceful one? Or are you prepared to use violence to obtain your ends, your desires?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (20:30)

We would hope that we won't have to resort, you see, to armed struggle. But if President Salva Kiir and his government continue to resist the transition, say that the transition comes to a halt, then there will be no alternative, not only for me, but for other South Sudanese other than to resort to armed resistance. It will become inevitable.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (20:53)

But surely the last thing South Sudan needs is another armed group, another conflict. The villager, struggling to get enough to feed himself, doesn't want men with guns rampaging through his village.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (21:05)

Yeah, but the problem men with guns are rampaging through village is because of governance. Because if this regime continues in power and running the country the way it is, then there will be no end in sight to the suffering of the people. The people will definitely be compelled to pay a sacrifice in order to free themselves, there's going to be pain. It's not going to be free of pain in the process, but it is something that has to be done. You know, it has to be done because otherwise I think the very existence of South Sudan itself as a state would be brought into question.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (21:39)

How so? Can you explain that thought?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (21:41)

Yeah, because the political elite, they want political power and they are being denied political power by the regime. The only way the regime can resolve this problem is to allow those people the opportunity to seek political power through the ballot box. Because, as I said, if there is no ballot box, at least most people would accept the idea of seeking power through the ballot box, getting mandate and legitimate from the people. But if that route is blocked, then there's no other alternative other than to resort to violence. And violence taking place all over the country is basically a recipe for disaster.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (22:18)

Do you see anybody, whether it's Salva Kiir, whether it's anyone of several other powerful men with guns, with armies, willing to accept defeat in an election, it's.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (22:29)

Likely that the election results would be contested. But again, it all depends on how the elections themselves are conducted. I mean, right now there's no political space. If you deny civic and political space, and then the government, let us say, under the splm, IG becomes the only political party that campaigns that goes out soliciting votes and so on, and others are denied that opportunity. Obviously, once the elections are held, if at all they're held under those circumstances, then most people would. The defeated party would not accept the outcome. So that's why I'm saying it's very, very important that even prior to the elections, must give sufficient time to make the adequate preparations to ensure that once the elections are done with and the results are declared, everybody will feel that those results basically reflect the will of the electorate.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (23:19)

There was so much optimism, so much joy in July 2011 when South Sudan declared its independence. All over the country, all over the world, where there are diaspora South Sudanese communities, lots of goodwill, I think, around the world as well, which you saw as foreign minister, do you feel that South Sudan's leaders, including yourself, have let the country down since then?

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (23:42)

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the manner in which the international community received the birth of the Republic of South Sudan was just amazing. Even we South Sudanese ourselves could not believe what we saw. I mean, the birth of a new country, everybody the world over wanted to be associated with the birth of a new country and that success story. So to that extent, what has transpired very clearly indicates that we have actually let the country down. We have let the country down.

BBC Presenter (James Copnell / Asma Khalid) (24:11)

Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the Nobel Peace Prize winning former president of Liberia, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, global music icon Stevie Wonder, and Somalia's President Hassan Sheikh Mohammed. Until the next time. Bye for now. America is changing and so is the world.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (24:47)

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (24:52)

It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

BBC Presenter (James Copnell / Asma Khalid) (24:55)

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

Interviewer (BBC Journalist) (24:58)

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.

BBC Presenter (James Copnell / Asma Khalid) (25:02)

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

Nyal Deng Nyal (Senior South Sudanese Politician) (25:07)

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.