Podcast Summary:

The Interview — “Nhial Deng Nhial: ‘South Sudan is being run down’”

BBC World Service | Host: James Copnell | Date: November 7, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and critical conversation between the BBC’s James Copnell and senior South Sudanese politician Nhial Deng Nhial. Once South Sudan’s Foreign Minister and a longtime leader in the ruling Sudan People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM), Nhial recently made headlines by publicly denouncing President Salva Kiir and suspending his party membership. The discussion delves into Nhial’s motivations, the dire state of governance in South Sudan, the failures of its leaders—including himself—and the prospects (and dangers) of elections and continued conflict.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Legitimacy Crisis in South Sudan

• Elections and Mandate:
  • Nhial repeatedly insists that South Sudan’s crisis boils down to a lack of legitimate authority stemming from postponed elections.
    • “Salva Kirna, his legitimacy ended since 2015, and he should have been seeking a new mandate from the people if he wants to continue running the country.” (Nhial Deng Nhial, 03:42)
• Critique of Current Governance:
  • The government is accused of dragging its feet on peace agreements and delaying the planned transition to democracy.
  • Nhial argues that this is a deliberate strategy by Kiir to cling to power, even as the country spirals into political and economic chaos.
    • “South Sudan is being run down...there's basically total failure of governance. Nothing is working.” (04:20)

Breakdown of the SPLM and Governance Failure

• Destruction of the SPLM:
  • Nhial lays the collapse of the SPLM—and thus the state—firmly at Kiir’s feet, stating the historic liberation movement is now “just like an ornament” with purged, fragmented leadership.
    • “The SPLM is just like now an ornament. And secondly, he has emptied the SPLM of its cadres...So the SPLM basically does not exist any longer.” (05:41)
• The “Liberation Curse” & Collective Responsibility:
  • Nhial acknowledges the theory that liberation leaders often fail in governance, but he pushes back, citing efforts to train SPLA leaders for public office. However, he admits culpability for not speaking out earlier.
    • “The failure of the SPLM is a collective responsibility in the sense that people like myself...haven't spoken out, basically haven't taken action.” (07:03)

Corruption, Oil, and Missed Potential

• Squandered Natural Resources:
  • Despite rich oil reserves and potential in agriculture and mining, oil wealth is siphoned off for personal gain while civil servants and security forces go months unpaid.
    • “The fact that resources are being diverted for personal gain and not employed for running the government and providing service is the fundamental problem of South Sudan right now.” (09:56)
    • “We have got to unlock the potential by investing oil money in opening up access to other resources...all this money is being squandered.” (10:42)
• Aid Dependency vs. Self-Sufficiency:
  • While Nhial acknowledges reliance on Western aid, he asserts—with frustration—that South Sudan should not have to beg for help given its natural wealth. (12:24)

Mechanisms for Change: Elections vs. Violence

• Why Elections Matter:
  • Nhial frames elections as the only legal and moral means to legitimate political power, contrasting it with the prevailing “gun culture.”
    • “Elections are absolutely critical...If we do not set this aside, then we are heading for total collapse.” (14:37)
    • “If there are no elections...they will continue to fight. There will be armed resistance and they would be justified in doing that.” (15:46)
• Risks of Armed Struggle:
  • The conversation is frank about the prospect of a return to civil war. Nhial doubts the regime’s willingness to allow truly free elections and warns continuing government intransigence will make armed resistance “inevitable.”
    • “We would hope that we won’t have to resort...to armed struggle. But...there will be no alternative...other than to resort to armed resistance. It will become inevitable.” (20:30)
    • "Violence taking place all over the country is basically a recipe for disaster." (21:41)

Governance, Impunity, and the Riek Machar Trial

• Machar’s Treason Charges:
  • Nhial is skeptical of the trial’s legitimacy and fears it may be a crude political move disguised as criminal justice—potentially inflaming ethnic tensions and conflict.
    • “Let us not engage in activities that would basically disguise political persecution as criminal prosecution.” (16:36)
    • “If people feel that the trial of Dr. Rehg Machiary is a sham...there will be a problem, definitely.” (17:31)
• Escalating Violence:
  • The ceasefire is said to have broken down, with government forces battling opposition militias and bombarding civilian areas.
    • “The ceasefire has completely broken down and there is fighting all over the country.” (18:05)
    • “You shouldn't be killing women and children. That's what's happening...right now as we speak.” (19:07)

The Succession Question

• Potential Heirs Apparent:
  • With new vice president Benjamin Bolmel seen as a possible chosen successor, Nhial insists only a genuinely popular mandate via election can confer legitimacy.
    • “Any South Sudanese citizen can seek to be the president. But you have to be chosen by the people. Otherwise that would create problems.” (19:37)

Acknowledging Mistakes and Lost Hopes

• Responsibility and Regret:
  • At episode’s close, Nhial admits the leadership—including himself—has “let the country down,” squandering the hope and goodwill of independence.
    • “What has transpired very clearly indicates that we have actually let the country down. We have let the country down.” (23:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legitimacy and Elections:
  • “Salva Kirna, his legitimacy ended since 2015.” (03:42, Nhial Deng Nhial)
  • “The SPLM now...does not exist any longer. And so there is no plan, there is no program, you know, for running the country.” (05:41, Nhial Deng Nhial)
• On Personal and Collective Responsibility:
  • “The failure of the SPLM is a collective responsibility...people like myself...haven't taken action.” (07:03, Nhial Deng Nhial)
• On Governance and the “Gun Culture”:
  • “The gun culture...has made violence an integral part of the political culture. If we do not set this aside, then we are heading for total collapse.” (14:37, Nhial Deng Nhial)
• On The Perils Ahead:
  • “We would hope that we won’t have to resort...to armed struggle. But...there will be no alternative...other than to resort to armed resistance. It will become inevitable.” (20:30, Nhial Deng Nhial)
  • “Otherwise I think the very existence of South Sudan itself as a state would be brought into question.” (21:05, Nhial Deng Nhial)
• On Regrets:
  • “We have actually let the country down. We have let the country down.” (23:42, Nhial Deng Nhial)

Key Timestamps

• 03:42 — Nhial opens on the critical importance of elections and legitimacy
• 04:20 — Describes the “total failure of governance” in South Sudan
• 05:41 — The SPLM as an “ornament”—political institutions hollowed out
• 07:03 — Acknowledges own responsibility for the SPLM’s failures
• 09:56 — Oil wealth is “diverted for personal gain,” not public service
• 14:37 — Elections as the only means to break the cycle of violence
• 16:36 — The Riek Machar trial, political persecution, and danger of sham justice
• 18:05 — Evidence of broken ceasefire and ongoing violence
• 20:30 — Discusses the inevitability of armed resistance without political change
• 21:05–21:41 — The risk that South Sudan could “cease to exist as a state”
• 23:42 — Nhial’s admission: “We have let the country down”

Final Thoughts

Nhial Deng Nhial’s candid interview offers a rare, unvarnished critique from one of the country’s founding figures. He shines a light on crippling governance failures, endemic corruption, and the collapse of post-independence hope, while acknowledging his own role in the country's decline. Nhial frames free and fair elections as the only way out for South Sudan, warning that without legitimate avenues for change, the cycle of violence will continue and the future of the world’s newest state may be lost entirely.