Nigel Casey, UK ambassador to Russia: no communication is extremely dangerous

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

The Interview – Nigel Casey, UK Ambassador to Russia: No Communication Is Extremely Dangerous
Host: Steve Rosenberg, BBC Russia Editor
Guest: Nigel Casey, UK Ambassador to the Russian Federation
Date: January 7, 2026

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Overview – Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features a candid and insightful conversation with Nigel Casey, the UK's ambassador to Russia, recorded at the ambassadorial residence opposite the Kremlin in Moscow. The episode explores what it's like to navigate one of the world’s tensest diplomatic posts at a time of sharply deteriorated UK–Russia relations following the invasion of Ukraine. Key themes include the daily realities of diplomatic life under scrutiny, the importance of maintaining even minimal lines of engagement, the shifting barriers between Russian society and the West, and insights on Russian leadership and propaganda.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Role and Relevance of Diplomacy (01:50, 14:12)

• Demand for Embassy Analysis: Casey notes an unprecedented demand for credible analysis on Russian decision-making since the Soviet Union’s collapse.
  • Quote (14:12):
    “There’s never been a great demand for analysis, information, understanding of Russia, what drives Russian decision making, what we can expect from this country’s leadership.” — Nigel Casey
• Communication as a Lifeline:
  • Direct embassy contacts are now often the "main remaining thread" connecting the UK and Russian governments. Complete isolation, Casey warns, would be “extremely dangerous.”
  • Quote (14:40):
    “It would be extremely dangerous if we didn’t have at least this limited ability to communicate with each other.”

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Day-to-Day Diplomatic Challenges (03:00, 04:38, 07:24)

• Casey describes his role as both "consequential" and “strangely privileged” given the current climate. Every day, the embassy is accused in Russian state media of outlandish schemes, tapping into longstanding rivalry.
  • Quote (03:00):
    “We are every single day, as you know, accused of increasingly outlandish plans and plots by various bits of the Russian state.”
• Contacts are shrinking: Russians—especially in academia, think tanks, and beyond—have been formally warned about engaging with UK diplomats and must report such meetings.
  • Quote (04:38):
    “People are literally scared of meeting us... the number of people who are willing to meet me has shrunk.”
• Surveillance and Harassment: British diplomats assume they are constantly followed and monitored—something true before, but now intensified. Occasional overt harassment happens, such as staged demonstrations outside embassy events.
  • Quote (07:24):
    “We assume that by one means or another, people are following our movements and who we’re talking to and what we’re up to... some of it tips into overt harassment.”

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Barriers in Society – A “New Iron Curtain”? (09:12)

• Casey refers to what feels like a “conscious and deliberate... effort by the Russian state to reduce contact between Russians and the West,” including more internet controls, less physical engagement, and deliberate intimidation.
  • Quote (09:12):
    “I think there is definitely a conscious and deliberate and systematic effort... to reduce contact between Russians and the West. ...Is it a total wall? No, thankfully not.”
• He sees his presence in Russia as a signal that the UK wishes for future relations—conditional on a change in Russian behaviour.

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Challenges of the Job (10:18, 13:03)

• Not categorized as a conflict zone, but in terms of government-host relations, Moscow is probably the toughest.
  • “It’s certainly the most challenging job I’ve done in my career. ...It wasn’t even easy, you know, 20 years ago, in better days.”
• Hardest Aspect: Staff safety and morale
  • Quote (13:03):
    “The hardest thing for me is worrying about the pressures on my staff. ...They not only get followed around, sometimes they will be harassed... they might be separated from their families and feeling quite isolated.”

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Importance of Staying in Russia (14:00)

• Casey rebuts calls for complete withdrawal, arguing that cutting diplomatic ties would be dangerously counterproductive—for both mutual understanding and the security of Europe.
  • Quote (14:40):
    “The embassies in our two countries really are the main remaining thread on which our relationship hangs. And I think it would be extremely dangerous if we didn’t have at least this limited ability to communicate with each other.”
• He stresses that the UK has not ignored Russia, but remains engaged due to the country’s size, newsworthiness, and direct security interests.

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The “Parallel Universe” of Propaganda (16:37)

• Russian information space is likened to a parallel reality. Exposure to 24/7 propaganda leads even foreigners to begin questioning their sense of truth, necessitating regular trips outside Russia to “reset.”
  • Quote (16:37):
    “You do live in a parallel universe of Russian propaganda here. ...After you’ve been here a while, it’s very, very hard to ignore this tidal wave of untruth... it starts to seep in.”
• Literary reference: Lewis Carroll’s 1867 Russia visit is discussed as possible inspiration for “Through the Looking Glass,” reflecting the enduring sense of encountering a “false mirror.”

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Personal Reflections on Russia and its Culture (18:53)

• Despite challenges, Casey continues to enjoy Moscow’s rich cultural life, including theatre, film, and music. His background in history and the depth of Russia’s historical fabric are personal motivators to stay engaged.

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Understanding Putin (19:53, 20:28)

• Interpreting the Russian leader’s intentions is a “key question” for diplomats and journalists alike.
• Putin’s worldview is laid out “hiding in plain sight” in his public speeches, especially those from Munich in 2007 and June 2024.
  • Quote (20:28):
    “A lot of it is there, hiding in plain sight. I would always recommend to people reading Vladimir Putin’s speeches in his public addresses, some of the particularly seminal ones... there is a consistency about President Putin’s view of the world and his objectives which I think you can trace back...”
• The closed nature of Russian politics means outsiders get only a few pieces of the puzzle, much as Churchill once likened Russian politics to “bulldogs fighting under a carpet.”
• The ambassador’s job is assembling the jigsaw with limited information and drawing on experience.

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Notable Quotes & Moments – With Timestamps

• "There's never been a great demand for analysis, information, understanding of Russia…" – Nigel Casey (01:50, 14:12)
• "It would be extremely dangerous if we didn't have at least this limited ability to communicate with each other." – Nigel Casey (01:50, 14:40)
• "We are every single day, as you know, accused of increasingly outlandish plans and plots by various bits of the Russian state." – Nigel Casey (03:00)
• "You do live in a parallel universe of Russian propaganda here." – Nigel Casey (16:37)
• "Part of the job is about making sure the team’s welfare is looked after… my responsibility towards them is probably the thing which keeps me awake at night more than anything else." – Nigel Casey (13:03)
• "Putin's innermost thinking is on the page... but can you take it all at face value? That’s a challenge." – Nigel Casey (20:45)

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Key Timestamps & Segments

• 00:40 – 02:00: Why the UK’s presence in Russia still matters
• 03:00 – 04:21: Accusations and the reality of Britain–Russia rivalry
• 04:38 – 05:42: Shrinking circle of contacts; areas halted (science, arts, culture)
• 07:24 – 08:11: Surveillance, harassment, and overt pressure on diplomats and guests
• 09:12 – 10:05: “New Iron Curtain” – deliberate reduction in East–West contact
• 13:03 – 13:47: Staff wellbeing as the most difficult part of the job
• 14:00 – 15:41: Arguments against withdrawing diplomats and maintaining communication threads
• 16:37 – 18:47: Navigating the Russian propaganda landscape; Lewis Carroll anecdote
• 18:53 – 19:53: Personal enjoyment of Russian culture and history
• 19:53 – 22:30: The puzzle of understanding Putin’s mindset through speeches and the closed political system

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Tone & Language

Throughout the conversation, both host and guest keep a measured, thoughtful tone—balancing realism about the dangers and difficulties with a sense of professional purpose, historical perspective, and lingering cultural curiosity about Russia. Casey’s responses are reflective, analytical, and grounded in experience, peppered with understated wit and a diplomatic candour. The atmosphere is serious but not fatalistic, always looking for threads of engagement.

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Conclusion

Nigel Casey’s conversation offers rare insights into the life of a top diplomat in today’s Russia: a world where everyday professional acts carry risk and symbolism, information is often distorted, and bridges need to be actively defended to prevent total misunderstanding. Communication, even at its most minimal, is described not just as preferable, but as vital to international security—and to any hope of positive change in the future.

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Transcript

[Steve Rosenberg]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, I'm Steve Rosenberg, the BBC's Russia editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trillions on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidised for 33 years. Isn't that enough? So solar for 25 years, that's enough.

[Nigel Casey]

I don't have army, I don't have missile rockets.

[Interviewer]

I have my body, I have my.

[Nigel Casey]

Voice, I love singing.

[Steve Rosenberg]

And so my goal was always to do better and better at it.

[Interviewer]

I was still in an induced coma.

[Steve Rosenberg]

In hospital when the world was defining me. For this interview, I met Nigel Casey, the UK's ambassador to the Russian Federation, at the official ambassadorial residence, which is directly opposite the Kremlin, just across the River Moskva. In a wide ranging conversation, the ambassador describes his life in Moscow over the last two years, a period of heightened tension between the UK and Russia. Following Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, the number of diplomats in the city has been drastically reduced. And for a British ambassador in Moscow, there are daily challenges to deal with. You're going to hear him say that he's followed wherever he goes in Russia and how on occasions his staff face harassment. He sees a key part of his job, defusing potentially dangerous diplomatic misunderstandings with the Russian government. He tells me there's a gap between the anti British rhetoric you hear in the state media and the genuine curiosity of ordinary Russians about the UK and how this job is one of the most challenging and important of his career.

[Nigel Casey]

There's never been a great demand for analysis, information, understanding of Russia, what drives Russian decision making, what we can expect from this country's leadership. I suspect the demand for our work has probably not been higher since the end of the Soviet Union. Another great period of huge uncertainty. So that is my. A large part of my job and why my employer sends me here because there is so little other contact at the political level between business groups. The embassies in our two countries really are the main remaining thread on which our relationship hangs. It would be extremely dangerous if we didn't have at least this limited ability to communicate with each other. So that's again a core part of our function and for me, perhaps the most important of the long term is to send a message to Russians that we're not walking away from this relationship. We've never wanted to, to have any kind of Rupture. And we want a different relationship in the future.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World service with the UK's ambassador to Russia, Nigel Casey.

[Nigel Casey]

It is tough, obviously, working here in current circumstances, but it is a bit of history we're living through here. It feels like, from a professional point of view, one of the most important and consequential jobs I could be doing anywhere. It is a strange kind of privilege, if you like, to find myself here in this job in current circumstances. You know, we are every single day, as you know, accused of increasingly outlandish plans and plots by various bits of the Russian state. It taps into a deep wellspring of Russian sense of rivalry, I would say, with Britain. When you actually talk to Russians as you do, you find it's a much more complex relationship and people's attitudes are rarely as black and white as they're portrayed in the official media. I actually very rarely encounter any genuine hostility from ordinary Russians. Even when I introduce myself and they've acknowledged who I am, you very quickly get past that. I think Russians are fascinated by the uk and the reverse is also true, of course. And I think there is degree of respect in that relationship and as a mutual admiration and interest which transcends individual governments and individual difficult periods like this in our history.

[Interviewer]

I agree there seems to be a big gap between the sort of anti British rhetoric that you hear in the state media and what ordinary Russians say about Britain.

[Steve Rosenberg]

But, you know, this hostility towards the.

[Interviewer]

UK from the authorities, how does that affect your work as British ambassador here?

[Nigel Casey]

Well, it has obviously made it much more difficult in a practical sense. People are literally scared of meeting us. I have noticed, even in my two years here, the number of people who are willing to meet me has shrunk. It was small when I arrived and now it's smaller. We know that the kind of people that we might have met in earlier times in think tanks in the academic world, never mind diplomats, have been formally told that they have to report any interactions with unfriendly embassies. And since we're at the top of that list, I think that particularly affects us. So the circle of Russians that one can talk to is smaller, but also the job is narrower. I mean, there are large areas of work which the embassy did when I was last here 20 years ago, that we just don't do at the moment. I think cooperation in science, in technology, in climate change, in arts and culture, education. These are things which in current circumstances are not happening.

[Interviewer]

How difficult is it to travel around the country? I Mean, do diplomats still have the chance to travel around?

[Nigel Casey]

Well, it is possible to do a certain amount of official travel. I mean, I've just been in Murmansk and I was in Archangel earlier this year, because 2025 was obviously the 80th anniversary of the end of the Second World War, and it was an opportunity to remind people of the contribution of the UK to sustaining the Soviet war effort, because, as you know, vital supplies were brought in through the Arctic convoys to northern Russia to sustain the Soviet war effort in the sort of vital first couple of years of the German invasion of Russia. So going to places like that and paying tribute to those who lost their lives in that effort is tolerated. We have a consulate still in Yekaterinburg, which I'm able to visit. I would say if I tried to do an official visit with formal meetings anywhere else, it's pretty much impossible. People won't meet you. It'll be as difficult as possible. Suddenly a demonstration will appear. And so for the rest of Russia, you can do personal travel, but official travel just doesn't work in current circumstances.

[Interviewer]

And, I mean, I don't know if you can talk about it or not, but, I mean, when we travel outside of Moscow very often, not always, but very often, we sense there are people sort of following us or whether keeping an eye on us. Would that be the same for us?

[Nigel Casey]

Yeah. No, we assume that by one means or another, people are following our movements and who we're talking to and what we're up to. And, I mean, that has always been the case, though. I mean, one feature of the current landscape which I think is not new is this obsession with following foreigners around Russia. But it always, of course, particularly applies to us, and in current circumstances, all the more so. So, yes, some of it tips into overt harassment. That's quite rare, but thankfully, but does happen, as you may have seen outside this building. When we mark our National Day, there's quite often suddenly a crowd of concerned citizens outside making a lot of noise and trying to intimidate our guests.

[Interviewer]

Is it dangerous for Russian guests to come into the embassy?

[Nigel Casey]

We have people who have been quite frightened by their experience in. We know people have been spoken to afterwards and have found that quite intimidating. And some people's reaction is to dial back on contacts with us, either for a period or completely. And that's deliberate. And I think it's part of a broader effort, unfortunately, by the Russian state at the moment to really try and minimize contact between Russians and Europe. It feels like, to me, a sort of historic Reversion of the trends, reversal of the trends that we saw here in the 1990s and the early 2000s.

[Interviewer]

Does it feel to you? Because it sort of feels to me as if some kind of new Iron Curtain or Berlin Wall is sort of going up, some new barrier between sort of Russia and Europe.

[Nigel Casey]

I think there is definitely a conscious and deliberate and systematic effort to by the Russian state to reduce contact between Russians and the West. And if you look at the increasing controls of the Internet to make that difficult online as well as physically, is it total yet? Is it a total wall? No, thankfully not. And, you know, part of the reason that we're here is to make clear to ordinary Russians that that's not the kind of relationship we want. You know, the Kremlin might be trying to reduce their contact with us, but that's not our policy and indeed, it's not the kind of relationship we want with Russia writ large. And that a different type of relationship would be on offer if Russian behaviour outside its borders changed.

[Interviewer]

Britain obviously has lots of ambassadors around the world trying to be objective. I mean, how challenging would you say the job of British ambassador in Moscow is compared to the others?

[Nigel Casey]

Well, thankfully, this is not one of the posts that we categorize as a conflict post, but in terms of the relationship with the host government, this is right up there. I mean, this is one of the most challenging. It's certainly the most challenging job I've done in my career. It's what makes it interesting. It's never easy. It wasn't even easy, you know, 20 years ago, in better days.

[Steve Rosenberg]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world. For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to Ambassador Nigel Casey, the UK's top diplomat in Russia. We sat down for tea at the ambassadorial residence. It's a majestic building, a plush Moscow mansion. It was built by a sugar tycoon in tsarist Russia and rather appropriately, boasts one of the sweetest locations in Moscow. The ambassador's balcony has the most breathtaking view of the Kremlin, which is just across the river. Ok, let's return to my conversation with Nigel Casey.

[Interviewer]

How much contact are you able to have with the Russian government? With the Russian authorities?

[Nigel Casey]

It's very limited at the moment. Generally, if you see me going into the Foreign Ministry, you can put a decent bet on it being bad news. And that's not because we don't want to have constructive conversations with the Russian government. I think it's actually A pretty vital part of my job to engage and to try and make sure that dangerous misapprehensions or misunderstandings of our role and intentions are defused wherever possible. But it's rare. I think I've seen the relevant Deputy Foreign Minister three times this year.

[Steve Rosenberg]

What's it like when you're sort of.

[Interviewer]

Summoned to the, to the Foreign Ministry? What's that experience like?

[Nigel Casey]

It varies. If it's a serious conversation, then it can be quite straightforward. If it's a bit of a media circus, then the Foreign Ministry press department will arrange for a group of rather familiar looking journalists to turn up outside the front door and they play all sorts of games, trying to make you look stupid on the way in and out. That's part of the sort of rigmarole really, of that kind of information operation, as they call it here.

[Interviewer]

What is the hardest thing for you as an ambassador here as far as your job is concerned?

[Nigel Casey]

I think the hardest thing for me is worrying about the pressures on my staff. I think my staff tend to get a harder time quite often than I do directly. They not only get followed around sometimes they will be harassed and quite a lot of the time they might be separated from their families and feeling quite isolated. And so a lot of the job is about making sure that the team's welfare is looked after. And I think my responsibility towards them is probably the thing which keeps me awake at night more than anything else.

[Interviewer]

Another question that I get asked from time to time is, why are you still there? Western journalists should pull out of Russia in protest.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Why do you think it's important for.

[Interviewer]

For example, British diplomats to remain here? I've heard people say, just build a big wall, just forget about Russia. What do you think?

[Nigel Casey]

Well, first of all, from my employer, the British government, there's never been a great demand for analysis, information, understanding of Russia. What drives Russian decision making, what we can expect from this country's leadership. I suspect the demand for our work has probably not been higher since the end of the Soviet Union. Another great period of huge uncertainty. So that is a large part of my job and why my employer sends me here because there is so little other contact at the political level between business groups. The embassies in our two countries really are the main remaining thread on which our relationship hangs. And I think it would be extremely dangerous if we didn't have at least this limited ability to communicate with each other. So that's again a core part of our function. And the third is, as I mentioned earlier, I think, and for me, perhaps the most important of the long term is to send a message to Russians that we're not walking away from this relationship. We've never wanted to have any kind of rupture, and we want a different relationship in the future. But that does depend on a fundamentally different type of Russian behavior outside its borders.

[Interviewer]

And I suppose Russia. I mean, Russia's not going anywhere, is it? And the biggest country in the world.

[Nigel Casey]

Yeah. No, Russia's. It's a great myth of Russian propaganda that we ignored Russia and forgot about it. You hardly ignore Russia. You've been reporting this story for three decades or more. We never have. It's a compelling story. Russia generates a lot of news, mostly bad, but it's never news that you can ignore. And it matters for our interests, particularly the security and stability of the European continent. And so that's not something we will ever walk away from voluntarily.

[Interviewer]

Do you get a sense? Because very often I get a sense that I'm living in some kind of alternative reality or parallel reality. How difficult is it to live and work in that kind of atmosphere, that kind of landscape where black is white and white is black?

[Nigel Casey]

You do live in a parallel universe of Russian propaganda here. And I encourage my team and myself make sure I get out of Russia regularly to remind myself what normal looks like. And because after you've been here for a while, it's very, very hard to ignore this sort of tidal wave of untruth which comes at you 247 and you find it starts to seep in. And I understand why Russians start to imbibe some of this stuff when they hear it so constantly. One of my favorite discoveries is that Lewis Carroll visited Russia in 1867. It was the only country he ever visited outside the uk. And some people claim that he wrote through the Looking Glass as his response to his experience, even in 1867, of this country and quite how different it was. And he talked about seeing the city reflected in a false mirror. So I think that there is something about. About Russia that has endured for that length of time, but the inoculation against it is to get out regularly and reset and then come back refreshed and clear about where truth lies.

[Interviewer]

That's fascinating. I had no idea that Lewis Carroll had been here.

[Nigel Casey]

He came here on a. It was actually an ecumenical visit. He came to visit the Orthodox Church because there was a fad for reuniting the Eastern and Western churches. And he met the Metropolitan of Moscow, and he visited Moscow, St. Petersburg, but also Nizhny Novgorod. So the place obviously made a Deep impression. He talked about hearing the jabber of voices because he obviously could not stand Russian. And again, some people claim that the jabberwocky was his response to hearing such an unfamiliar language spoken around him and not having any idea what it meant.

[Interviewer]

Fascinating, fascinating. What do you like about Russia? What are the things that attract you to Russia?

[Nigel Casey]

Well, Moscow is still in many ways a great city. And one of the things that one can still enjoy, despite everything here, is the cultural offer that Moscow has. So I try as far as possible to take opportunities to go to the theater, go and see new films, go and listen to the really world class music that is on offer here. Every night of the week there are new openings of exhibitions, even if it's having to use the resources within Russia rather than cooperating with any foreign institutions these days. I studied history at university and Russia is steeped in it. And so I find all of that rich and fascinating. And that's what keeps me going here. I'm sure. I imagine you feel the same.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely, yeah. Just bringing the conversation back to the political situation here. Another question I get asked a lot on air constantly is what is Vladimir Putin thinking? You know, what's in his mind? And I expect to an extent that's a question which kind of you're looking at on a daily basis. Is it possible to know, Is it possible to work out his thought processes, his thought patterns, what his plans are? Because I suppose that's kind of the answer to that question is key.

[Nigel Casey]

Well, a lot of it is there, hiding in plain sight. I would always recommend to people reading Vladimir Putin's speeches in his public addresses, some of the particularly seminal ones. His famous munich speech in 2007. If you look at the speech he gave to the foreign ministry in June 2024 about his goals for the war in Ukraine, his famous essay on the historical UN of Ukraine and Russia, a lot of his innermost thinking is on the page. Now. Can you take it all at face value? Well, that's a challenge which, you know, I think it requires people who've been here as long as you have to take judgments on. But there is a consistency about President Putin's view of the world and his objectives, which I think you can trace back. Maybe it's easier to do it in retrospect, but you can certainly, sitting where we are today, trace it back to the very early days of his time as president. So, I mean, this is an extremely closed political system. And I think Winston Churchill said something about, compared to Russian politics, to the bulldogs fighting under, under a carpet in the sense that, you know, it was only after you, you saw the, the outcome that you knew you had a sense of what had been going on. But it is, I think that's part of the fascination of my job and I guess yours is that, you know, we have, we have to assemble a jigsaw puzzle with, with only a few of the pieces and fill the rest in with our, our own experience and knowledge. And I think with Vladimir Putin there's a lot of clues in public and some of the other bits you have to fill in for yourself.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the author Sir Salman Rushdie, Nobel Peace Prize winner Ellen Johnson Sirleaf and the Venezuelan conductor Gustavo Dudamel. Until the next time, bye bye for now.

[Nigel Casey]

Yummy, Charming, ultrasoft, smooth.