Noura Erekat, Palestinian-American humans rights lawyer and professor

Summary

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The Interview: Noura Erakat, Palestinian-American Human Rights Lawyer and Professor

BBC World Service | November 17, 2025

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Overview

This episode features Noura Erakat, a Palestinian-American human rights lawyer and professor, known for her advocacy for justice in Palestine. The conversation explores her personal journey, experiences addressing the UN Security Council, perspectives on international law, the crisis in Gaza—especially for women and children—the Palestinian diaspora, social media’s influence on narratives, shifting political tides, and the endurance of hope amid tragedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Noura’s Early Life and Identity

• Growing up Palestinian-American:
  • Noura describes her upbringing as the daughter of first-generation immigrants in the US, living within an “immigrant bubble” before realizing her Palestinian identity later in life.
  • Initially, family life was about adaptation; political activism was discouraged.
    • “My family...is not encouraging me to be politically active. They’re not telling me stories of our homeland...If anything, they're discouraging me from even becoming involved because they've escaped and they want me to create some sort of alternative future.” ([10:08])
• College as an Awakening:
  • At college, she realized the public discourse around Palestine and her “politicized identity,” marking a turning point in advocacy.
    • “I took it for granted how politicized my identity was until I got to college and I realized, oh, there are people who know where this is.” ([03:00], [11:14])
  • Her early activism was shaped by both a drive for universal justice and specific experiences while visiting refugee camps and witnessing the second Intifada.
    • “When I get to the refugee camp, that's when I begin to see, wow, our struggle is varied and vast...especially when I see the disconnect between general Palestinian society and Palestinian refugees who are contained in, you know, 1 square kilometer refugee camps.” ([11:14])

Decision to Become a Human Rights Attorney

• Naive Faith in Law’s Power:
  • Noura went to law school with a single-minded goal: to become a human rights attorney for the Palestinian cause, believing in the “redemptive power of the law.”
    • “This naivety, you know, makes me believe that the law will overcome the political obstacles...if I can just come up with a better legal argument, I can compel a panel of judges.” ([03:58])
• Addressing the UN Security Council:
  • Speaking at the Security Council was the “apex” for her as an advocate.
    • “You’re entering into the lion’s den, so to speak, the sole source of enforcement authority in the international system. So it’s a big deal.” ([03:58])

The UN and the Limits of International Law

• Belief in the UN’s Imperative Role:
  • Despite its failings, Noura urges continued effort to make the UN serve humanity’s highest ideals, particularly in atrocity crimes.
    • “We must make it meet its potential. We’re at a crisis point.” ([06:57])
  • Highlights proposals like limiting veto powers for permanent Security Council members during atrocity crimes, mentioning the Malaysian president’s advocacy for reform.
    • “These must be reformed. And the infallible optimist in me...reminded me...no one is coming to save us, that we are the only ones who can save ourselves and that humanity must prevail.” ([06:57])

Plight of Women and Girls in Gaza

• Firsthand Accounts and Gendered Violence:
  • Shares harrowing testimonies from Gaza: women undergoing C-sections without anesthesia, miscarriages due to bombings, childbirth in public bathrooms, and children dying from hunger and lack of medical care.
    • “Some of the testimony that I read were about women that gave birth without anesthetic, who could feel every part having C-sections...later parents had to watch their six-year-old, Asma, die because there’s no food.” ([08:37])
  • Explains how these experiences fit within the Genocide Convention, emphasizing the gendered dimension—“reprocide,” or targeting of reproductive capacity. ([04:49])

Survivor’s Guilt and Personal Motivation

• The Weight of Privilege:
  • Noura speaks of survivor’s guilt stemming from her relatively protected life in the United States.
    • “How is it that I get to survive all of this because I have a blue passport and I can leave?” ([13:44])
  • Ultimately, she learned to shift motivation from guilt to love and humanity, seeking sustainability and self-care in advocacy:
    • “It took years to be able to pause and to say, I don’t want to be driven by guilt. I’m going to be driven by love...when you’re driven by guilt, you can never do enough, and so you have no grace for yourself or for others.” ([14:14])

Building Palestinian-Led Narratives: Jadaliyya

• Founding the Jadaliyya E-Zine:
  • Co-founded in response to lack of indigenous platforms for Middle Eastern voices—most knowledge production was “done in order to help the US...advance their interests.”
    • “There’s no form that allows peoples of the Middle east to speak for themselves. And so we launched this...Jadaliyya basically fills a space, unbeknownst to us.” ([16:47])
• Timing with Arab Uprisings:
  • The e-zine launched just before the 2011 uprisings, giving it crucial significance for amplifying local expertise.

The Role of Social Media & Changing Perceptions

• Explosion of Palestinian Voices:
  • Notes the unprecedented spread of Palestinian self-advocacy and witnessing, especially by journalists and survivors, despite media blackouts.
    • “There has been an absolute explosion across social media...because brave Palestinian journalists who were systematically targeted took that risk to show us and to bring us in when Israel had imposed and continues to impose a media blackout.” ([18:43])
• Narrative Battle:
  • Considers the present as a turning point:
    • “For us, the greatest battle in this moment is a narrative battle. How will this moment be remembered?” ([18:43])

Political Shifts in the US and Beyond

• Growing Sympathy Among Young Americans:
  • Recognizes shifts especially among younger voters and some on the American right questioning US support for Israel—though notes that right-wing critiques focus on self-interest, not Palestinian justice.
    • “This is about to be a generational struggle. Everybody who saw what they saw cannot unsee it. And that generation...will become those in power.” ([20:15])
    • “Their main issue of discontent is why don’t we have the right to free speech...Their main concern isn’t Palestinians.” ([20:15])

Leadership, Accountability, and Moving Forward

• Humanitarian Imperatives Over Politics:
  • Stresses that allowing Palestinians to survive and heal must precede expectations of political leadership and nation-building.
    • “We’re literally expecting a people to emerge from genocide to build a political future without addressing that they are humans. They are enduring emotional trauma and still unable to survive.” ([21:16])
  • Urges arms embargoes and ending foreign aid that “provides cover” for ongoing suffering.
  • Calls for supporting Palestinian self-determination above choosing “solutions,” saying, “Palestinians need to lead themselves. We need to let them live first.” ([21:16])

Hope, Resilience, and the Future

• Finding Hope in Palestinian Endurance:
  • Draws hope from Palestinians’ ability to create life, joy, and community in the harshest circumstances.
    • “Listening to Palestinian...new mothers who have created life in the midst of the genocide, when life is the primary target...I come from these people, I am part of this lineage. We create from nothing. We practice love, we teach life. How can I not have hope?” ([23:00])
  • Invites those feeling hopeless to look to Palestinians for strength and resilience.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On law and activism:
  • “This naivety, you know, makes me believe that the law will overcome the political obstacles...if I can just come up with a better legal argument, I can compel a panel of judges.” (Noura Erakat, [03:58])
• On the Security Council speech:
  • “I was...only the second Palestinian woman to address the Council...I was using also my privilege, as you know, a US Born Palestinian in the diaspora to center the voices of Palestinian women.” ([04:49])
• On the UN’s necessity:
  • “The UN is born out of the ashes of a failed League of Nations...We must make it meet its potential.” ([06:57])
• Testimony from Gaza:
  • “Women that gave birth without anesthetic...feeling their body ripped apart...parents had to watch their six-year-old, Asma, die because there’s no food to sustain her.” ([08:37])
• On Palestinian resilience:
  • “We create from nothing. We practice love, we teach life. How can I not have hope?...I encourage people who lose hope to turn to Palestinians because they will teach you quite a bit and help you strengthen that muscle of hope.” ([23:00])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Content | Start Time | |---------|---------|------------| | Noura describes childhood and diaspora identity | Palestinian-American upbringing, family discouraging activism | 03:00, 10:08, 11:14 | | Choosing a career in human rights law | Motivations, law school decision, UN address | 03:58, 04:49 | | The UN and international law | Critical perspective, need for reform, sense of crisis | 06:57 | | Day-to-day life for women in Gaza | Firsthand testimonies, gendered aspects of violence | 08:37 | | Survivor's guilt and personal drive | Privilege in diaspora, shift to love-driven advocacy | 13:44, 14:14 | | Founding Jadaliyya | Providing a platform for Middle Eastern voices | 16:47 | | Social media & knowledge battles | Explosion of Palestinian self-representation | 18:43 | | US political shifts, generational change | Generational struggle, changing perceptions | 20:15 | | The need for accountability over politics | Prioritizing humanitarian response | 21:16 | | Sources of hope & resilience | Palestinian endurance and community | 23:00 |

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Conclusion

Noura Erakat’s interview offers a deeply personal and analytical look at the struggle for Palestinian rights, the limitations and necessity of international legal frameworks, the shifting narrative landscape fueled by social media, and the indomitable hope that animates her—and many Palestinians’—work. Her insights bridge lived experience, legal analysis, and a broader call for solidarity, making the episode both urgent and inspiring for a global audience.

Transcript

[Asma Khalid]

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[Tristan Redman]

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[Asma Khalid]

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[Noora Erakat]

How often do people get murdered around here?

[Asma Khalid]

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[Noora Erakat]

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[Asma Khalid]

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[Noora Erakat]

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[Asma Khalid]

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[Noora Erakat]

Dude.

[Asma Khalid]

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[Noora Erakat]

Total winner, winner, chicken breakfast.

[Asma Khalid]

Chicken breakfast? Come on. I think you mean chicken dinner, bro. Nah, brother. Crispy bacon, fluffy eggs, juicy chicken and a buttery biscuit. That's the perfect breakfast. All right, let me try it.

[Noora Erakat]

Okay.

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, totally. Winner, winner, chicken breakfast. I'm gonna have to keep this right here. Make sure every breakfast is a winner with the delicious new bacon, egg and.

[Noora Erakat]

Chicken biscuit from am pm AM P M. Too much good stuff.

[Asma Khalid]

Hello, I'm namia Akbal, the BBC's North America correspondent. And this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.

[Noora Erakat]

I'm disappointed in him that four times and then you go home and you see just attack a nursing home in Kiev. I said, what the hell was that all about?

[Asma Khalid]

I was still in an induced coma.

[Noora Erakat]

In hospital when the world was defining me. But I was still 15 years old.

[Asma Khalid]

And I did not know who I was.

[Noora Erakat]

I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it.

[Asma Khalid]

Today we are spending trillions on war and peanuts on peace. For this interview I met Noora Erakat, a Palestinian American human rights lawyer and a professor of Africana studies and criminal justice at Rutgers University in the States. By the time she enrolled in law school, Noura knew she wanted to fight for the Palestinian cause. As well as being a legal scholar, she is also an outspoken advocate for justice in Palestine. She went on to become one of the first Palestinian women to address the United Nations Security Council in October this year, where she spoke passionately on the plight of women and girls in Gaza. The International association of Genocide Scholars declared in September that Israel was committing genocide in Gaza, which Israel denies and says their actions are justified as a means of self defence. Noora Erakat reflects on the global response to the war in Gaza and what international law can and cannot do in times of crisis. We explore what accountability might look like, how narratives around resistance and violence are shaped, and why, for many Palestinians, the law has so often failed them. She also talks about growing up as part of the Palestinian diaspora in the United States, survivor's guilt, and how this has all shaped her life.

[Noora Erakat]

Palestine still was very central to my identity. I grew up with a lot of family. It wasn't until I got to college and nobody knew where it was. Everybody thought, oh, Pakistan, you're from Pakistan. They couldn't even name Palestine. And I was very proud. I was always, you know, doing dabke for the cultural night. I, you know, I was very involved civically, and it was just, you know, But I took it for granted how politicized my identity was until I got to college and I realized, oh, there are people who know where this is. This is a matter of public discourse. I can be involved. And hence begins a new chapter of my life where I decide I care about all of humanity. But clearly there is not enough advocacy on the question of Palestine. And so here, this is where I will contribute.

[Asma Khalid]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Noora Erakat, Palestinian American human rights lawyer and professor.

[Noora Erakat]

When I enroll and go to law school, I have a singular goal of wanting to become a human rights attorney for the Palestinian cause. I believe in all of humanity, but I think that too little has been done about Palestine. And so I want to become a Palestinian human rights attorney. This naivety, you know, makes me believe that the law will overcome the political obstacles that have been put in our place. And if I can just come up with a better legal argument, I can compel a panel of judges. So some 20 years later, when I'm addressing the Security Council for the first time, this is the apex of what any human rights attorney trained as a human rights attorney would want to do. You're entering into, you know, the lion's den, so to speak, the sole source of enforcement authority in the international system. So it's a big deal.

[Tristan Redman]

You must have felt like real pressure, like, this is such an important moment for you.

[Noora Erakat]

I was, in the course of the genocide, only the second Palestinian woman to address the Council. So knowing that, you know, I constructed an argument because this was also part of the open debate on women and security and peace. And so they were, you know, this was monumental to celebrate. 25 years since the Security Council resolution determined that women, women are central to any sustainable peace and must be included within that framework. I am presenting to the Security Council, an argument that Palestinian women are not only excluded from peacemaking, as all Palestinians are, but are also subject to a particular kind of gender and sexual violence that has rendered the reproductive capacity to be moot in the service of undermining the possibility of a Palestinian future. This is known as reprocide. Right. But also it is a pillar. It satisfies three of the specific acts of the Genocide Convention. We can demonstrate genocide, preventing births, preventing even becoming pregnant, then preventing a safe opportunity to be able to deliver, then preventing an opportunity to be able to survive, all within a gendered framework. You know, I did that in a way that brought in all of the Palestinian women who couldn't be there to speak for themselves, because as you are familiar, the United States earlier this year has denied all visas to Palestinians to enter the United States. So I was using also my privilege, as you know, a US Born Palestinian in the diaspora to center the voices of Palestinian women to be able to speak for themselves and be heard in that chamber.

[Tristan Redman]

When it comes to the UN though, I wonder, you know, everything you've laid out there, the importance of that stage, do you think it still has power and value in terms of a crucial role to play? I mean, we've seen the way the US Sort of has this, certainly under President Trump has this very tumultuous relationship with the UN where a lot of the UN actions are kind of ignored, aren't they? But I just wonder, from your point of view, how high do you hold up the un? Do you still think it's a very important institution?

[Noora Erakat]

I think it must be a very important institution. I think we must make it so. Because the UN is born out of the ashes of a failed League of Nations that was unable to stem, you know, a fascist Italy's invasion of Ethiopia in 1936. It was born out of the ashes of being unable to stem a world war and the annihilation of Jewish people across Europe. And so it is born as a response to our failures as humanity. And so when we ask, is the UN doing what it's supposed to do? No, but we must make it meet its potential. We're at a crisis point. And that's why it's really refreshing when we hear, for example, the Malaysian president say, let's revisit the authority of the Security Council, that the five permanent members cannot exercise their veto power in the case of atrocity crimes. So now we're seeing at least the seeds being planted. We do not have to stay this way. This must be reformed. And the infallible optimist in me. And so I left the Security Council imbued and reminded of what many of us already no one is coming to save us, that we are the only ones who can save ourselves and that humanity must prevail. And so I left squarely convinced and uplifted that we are the only people who can save ourselves and we have to do this.

[Tristan Redman]

You said that, you know, you're conscious of your privilege as a Palestinian born in America. So can you tell us what the situation is actually like for women and girls in Gaza?

[Noora Erakat]

Well, I encourage all listeners to read those women and girls who are writing despite the siege, who have literally written in the course of starvation, of, you know, harm being done to them despite all that, they're still writing. And many of them are writing in English because they're hopeful that you'll read it. So some of the testimony that I read were about women that gave birth without an aesthetic, who said things they could feel, every part having C sections without anesthetic, feeling their body ripped apart. Other women like Shaima Abdithabet, who miscarried in her first pregnancy because her shelter was being bombed and she was running away and frantic. Other testimony of a woman who, you know, under the name of a pseudonym of Muna, who the hospitals were so full in Rafah that she was forced to give birth in a public bathroom and then afterwards be so emaciated and malnourished they could not breastfeed their own children. And later parents had to watch their six year old, Asma, die because there's no food to sustain her. Her immunity is destroyed and there's no hospitals to take her to. These are the stories Palestinian women are telling us.

[Tristan Redman]

As a Palestinian American, what was life like for you when you were growing up? I'm really curious to know how much you were aware of what it meant to be Palestinian. And how did you sort of understand your identity? Tell me a little bit about that.

[Noora Erakat]

Well, I am the daughter of, you know, first generation immigrants. I'm born shortly after they arrive in the United States. And so I grow very much in, like this, in an immigrant bubble. And I am aware that I am a girl in the world well before I realize I'm Palestinian or Muslim or Arab or even an immigrant. Right. I just am very aware that I'm a girl because I have brothers. There's a maldistribution of privileges and responsibilities. I'm naming it as unfair. I'm seeing it in that way. And it's that lens that's allowing me to see how superiority and privilege is constructed and not natural right. By the time I become aware that I'm Palestinian, it's very cultural. My family, and this might make me distinct from younger generations of Palestinians. My family is not encouraging me to be politically active. They're not telling me stories of our homeland or giving me a key and saying we have the right to return. If anything, they're discouraging me from even becoming involved because they've escaped and they want me to create some sort of alternative future.

[Asma Khalid]

That's interesting.

[Tristan Redman]

I mean, do you think that was deliberate? Do you think they just wanted you to fit in and not be burdened by any of that?

[Noora Erakat]

They wanted me to escape what I guess I would call the responsibility to advance our cause of liberation, but what they would describe as a burden that has harmed so many around them, that they had seen, destroy and take away so many lives. And for what? You know, that was the constant thing, like, you know, all these other leaders couldn't do anything. What are you doing? I mean, it was to the point of even being punished to keep me away from it. So. But. But Palestine still was very central to my identity. I grew up with a lot of family. It wasn't until I got to college, you know, and nobody knew where it was. Everybody thought, oh, Pakistan, you're from Pakistan. They couldn't even name Palestine. And I was very proud. I was always, you know, doing debke for the cultural night. I, you know, I was very involved civically, and it was just, you know, but I took it for granted how politicized my identity was until I got to college and I realized, oh, there are people who know where this is. This is a matter of public discourse. I can be involved. And hence begins a new chapter of my life where I decide I care about all of humanity. But clearly there is not enough advocacy on the question of Palestine. And so here, this is where I will contribute. And, you know, and I cared about the world. I thought I would be the first American woman Secretary of State. I wanted to work on, you know, homelessness, on women's issues. I wanted to, you know, work on, but in a very universal way. The turning point to dedicate myself, you know, focused on Palestine comes when in my freshman year of college, I receive a scholarship of, you know, a few hundred dollars for, you know, getting above a 4.0 or whatnot. And so I got a scholarship, and I lied to my parents and I told them that I had a job and they were sending me to Palestine to work in a Refugee camp. They would have never been okay if they knew I received a scholarship money and used the money to buy a ticket. And when I get to the refugee camp, that's when I begin to see, wow, our struggle is varied and vast. And it puts me, you know, in a tailspin, especially when I see the disconnect between general Palestinian society and Palestinian refugees who are contained in, you know, 1 square kilometer refugee camps. And then later, I'm in Palestine studying abroad when the second Intifada begins. And my neighbor in Abu Dhees, I'm studying at Hebrew U, and I'm the only Palestinian there using my best Hebrew in these classrooms. One of the first five Palestinians killed at the start of the second intifada is my neighbor. And I'm driven so much by survivor's guilt. How is it that I get to survive all of this because I have a blue passport and I can leave.

[Tristan Redman]

I hear that a lot, Noora, about survivor's guilt. I mean, even the fact that you're born here, number one.

[Noora Erakat]

But that's complete fortune, right, Nomi? That's complete fortune. I could have been born in Rafah had my family been moved in a particular way. I could have been born in Lebanon and continued to be stateless, or I could have been born in a refugee camp. But I'm born in the United States. What really motivates me first and foremost is humanity. I am driven by humanity. I have just become aware in the course of. Of, you know, coming to political maturation that Palestinians have been excluded even from progressive agendas that agree with me on everything else. That motivation was driven, I'm sure, by ptsd, by survivor's guilt, I'm sure. And it took years to be able to pause and to say, I don't want to be driven by guilt. I'm going to be driven by love. And that includes love of the humanity that initially drove me and love and grace for myself. Because when you're driven by guilt, you can never do enough, and so you have no grace for yourself or for others.

[Asma Khalid]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service people shaping our world from all over the world. America is changing, and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the World and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to Noora Erakat. I wanted to really get a sense of what life is like for the Palestinian diaspora. What's significant here is that Noora is also a Palestinian American, born and raised in a country that is Israel's closest ally. Human rights lawyers and scholars can often speak in a way that feels weighty and clinical. But what struck me about Noura was the way she blended her personal experience as a Palestinian in a way that just felt very real and accessible. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Noura Erakat.

[Tristan Redman]

You went on to set up this E Zine, didn't you, in 2010, to.

[Asma Khalid]

To cover the Arab world.

[Tristan Redman]

Tell me about how that came about and why you felt that you needed to set that up.

[Noora Erakat]

So the primary brainchild of Jadaliya, an electronic magazine on the Middle east, is Professor Bassam Haddad, who brought us together, you know, a number of, you know, folks in academia and advocacy, and basically had said, look, all knowledge production on the Middle east in this form is done in order to help the U.S. or other, you know, other colonial powers advance their interests, their national interests in the Middle east. Right, or to talk about the Middle East. But there's no form that allows peoples of the Middle east to speak for themselves. And so we launched this, you know, this is the moment of the proliferation of blogs and magazines and, you know, now you can do it independently. It didn't exist, so we built it. Now, two months, literally two months after we launched the Mohamed Bouazizi self immolates in Tunisia, thus sparking the Arab uprisings that we see. We are in the right place at the right time. And now all of this academic expertise in our field, we are able to filter into shorter form to be accessible and distributed. And it create, you know, Jadaliya basically fills a space, you know, unbeknownst to us. And this is what we have continued to do now, publishing across the region in multiple languages and in multiple disciplines.

[Tristan Redman]

Since the war began. I mean, I've certainly seen this, and of course, I know you will have. There has been this much bigger spotlight now on Palestinians and their rights. We're seeing that on social media. You know, certainly I would say that I have seen more people talk about what's happening to Palestinians, what's happening in Gaza, especially younger generations who probably didn't know a lot, right, or anything, or anything at all. Or if they did, they knew it from A certain angle. I'm curious to know from your point of view, how you have seen the conversation change and what that has been like for you.

[Noora Erakat]

Yes, you are absolutely correct. There has been an absolute explosion across social media of the production of knowledge, of covering the stories, of telling the stories where we have seen Palestinians speak for themselves, followed the genocide because brave Palestinian journalists who were systematically targeted took that risk to show us and to bring us in when Israel had imposed and continues to impose a media blackout so that we cannot see. And so this duality exists now. What does that mean in the future? We're really at a turning point where the biggest site of battle for those outside of Palestine, but those outside of Palestine, especially for those in the United States, have a tremendous responsibility because we're funding this and we're providing the COVID to Israel at the UN Security Council to continue to do it through impunity and we're providing arms. And so for us, the greatest battle in this moment is a narrative battle. How will this moment be remembered?

[Tristan Redman]

I mentioned the social media, but actually, if you look at the political level as well, things seem to have shifted. So obviously we know that the US has long been Israel's biggest ally, still very much is at the political level. But there is this shift in terms of younger voters, right, who are caring more about Palestinian rights. You have high profile members of the Republican Party saying, why are we pledging allegiance to Israel? So I would love to know what you make of those shifts. And do you think they will make any kind of difference in the long run to the Palestinian cause?

[Noora Erakat]

Absolutely, it's going to make a difference because this is about to be a generational struggle. Everybody who saw what they saw cannot unsee it. And that generation in some time will become those in power, will become the leaders and will become those in political power, cultural power, right, financial power and so on, that I think that this is a generational shift that we're seeing the beginning of it. How does that translate on the ground for Palestinians? That's unknown and yet to be seen when almost nothing has changed. The conditions are worsening on the ground. And even that debate that you're talking about amongst the Republican, amongst the right, who, you know, America first. Why are we pledging allegiance to Israel? Their main issue of discontent is why don't we have the right to free speech? And why do I have to care about Israel and why is my money, tax dollars, going there? Their main concern isn't Palestinians.

[Tristan Redman]

Who are the next Palestinian leaders that can create that freedom, that can Take it to that level that you're talking about.

[Asma Khalid]

Who are they?

[Noora Erakat]

For those who are keen on Palestinian leadership emerging in full force, we need to do our part to do no harm, which means arms embargo, which means an end of aid, which means allowing international norms and at least give the chance of a popular Palestinian leadership to emerge. To imagine that Palestinians are able to rebuild in a moment where children are still being blown up because they're in unexploded landmines that have been left across Gaza, where are there no hospitals, schools or even homes to get shelter in. It really is insensitive not to prioritize accountability for ourselves for causing this destruction in order to rebuild, in order to give a people a chance who are probably deeply traumatized. 17,000 Palestinians have been orphaned and many of them have been pulled from the rubble with no limbs and no surviving family. We worry in the west, when somebody witnesses a car accident, right, or sees someone die in front of them, and the trauma, and they get therapy and they have support. We're literally expecting a people to emerge from genocide to build a political future without addressing that they are humans. They are enduring emotional trauma and still unable to survive. They've proposed a one state solution, a two state solution, a binational federation. Palestinians need to lead themselves. We need to let them live first.

[Tristan Redman]

I would like to end on hope, something hopeful. You said you're an optimist. What, if anything, gives you hope moving forward?

[Noora Erakat]

The greatest amount of hope that I've been able to conjure, you know, is watching Palestinians make something out of nothing. Listening to Palestinian, you know, new mothers who have created life in the midst of the genocide, when life is the primary target. Or witnessing the young man on, you know, Instagram who doesn't have access to a gym, so is now making makeshift weights out of water bottles. The only thing I can say that's good about the ceasefire is that it gives Palestinians an opportunity to sleep and to eat. And if they have are able to sleep and to eat, they are able to continue moving forward to craft a vision for their own freedom. And so how can you not have hope? And especially for me as a Palestinian, when I think to myself, I come from these people, I am part of this lineage. We create from nothing. We practice love, we teach life. How can I not have hope? And so I encourage people who lose hope to turn to Palestinians because they will teach you quite a bit and help you strengthen that muscle of hope.

[Asma Khalid]

Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll Find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with released Israeli hostage Keith Siegel, author Sir Salman Rushdie, and former US Vice President Kamala Harris. Until the next time. Bye for now. America is changing and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redmond in London, and this is the Global story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC or wherever you get your podcasts.