Rafael Grossi, IAEA: Nuclear back on the table?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Interview – Rafael Grossi, IAEA: Nuclear Back on the Table?

Host: Rob Young (BBC World Service)
Guest: Rafael Grossi (Director General, International Atomic Energy Agency)
Date: July 23, 2026
Episode Theme:
An in-depth conversation with Rafael Grossi about the growing prominence of nuclear issues in global security, ongoing nuclear-related conflicts (with a focus on Iran and Ukraine), the evolving role of the IAEA, and Grossi’s candidacy for UN Secretary General.

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Episode Overview

This episode features Rafael Grossi, Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), in a timely conversation about global nuclear risks, the state of Iran’s nuclear program amid conflict, and the mounting challenges of nuclear oversight. Grossi offers candid insights into the complexity of monitoring nuclear materials in conflict zones, the constraints of international oversight, the resurgence of nuclear concerns in world affairs, and shares his vision for diplomatic solutions—including his aspirations for the UN.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

IAEA’s Oversight and Iran’s Nuclear Program

• Grossi on Iran’s Obligations
  • Iran remains a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), and therefore is required to declare all nuclear activities for IAEA inspection.
    • Quote:
      “Let’s not forget that Iran continues to be a contracting party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty...they are under an obligation, voluntarily assumed by them, to have their nuclear activities inspected by the IAEA.”
      — Rafael Grossi [03:06]
• American Attacks on Iranian Nuclear Facilities
  • When asked about a reported strike on the Darkovid nuclear power plant:
    • Grossi clarifies: The site is not a functioning power plant; only preliminary construction exists, with no nuclear material present at the time.
    • Quote:
      “There is, of course, an intention to have a nuclear reactor at some point and some initial construction work there.”
      — Grossi [07:06]
• Getting IAEA Inspectors Back into Iran
  • Grossi expresses uncertainty about when inspections will resume, reiterating the recognized 60-day negotiation window from the most recent Memorandum of Understanding.
    • Quote:
      “I think we should be there already... it should be soon.”
      — Grossi [08:14]

Tensions over Political Statements and Transparency

• Iran’s Resistance to 'Political Statements' by IAEA
  • Tehran demands reduced criticism in exchange for cooperation; Grossi stands firm.
    • Quote:
      “Everything I say, I say in my capacity and within my authorities as Director General... They have their opinion, but they also have responsibilities and obligations and they have to comply with them.”
      — Grossi [09:52]

The Status of Iran’s Highly Enriched Uranium

• The 'Dust Trapped Underground' Claim
  • Discussing US claims that 440kg of Iran’s enriched uranium is “dust trapped underground,” Grossi corrects this as an inaccuracy:
    • Quote:
      “It’s like some form of poetic language. It’s not dust, of course, first of all, that is in gas form...The material is important. This is highly enriched uranium at very close to weapon level grade. So for us as IAEA, it is very, very important to go back and to check it.”
      — Grossi [10:37]
  • On what should happen to the uranium:
    • Grossi declines to prescribe, but insists it must be declared and inspected, “not diverted to any end which is not peaceful.” [11:26]

Escalating Nuclear Risk and Non-Proliferation

• Global Nuclear Threats Have Increased

  • Reference to two major wars with nuclear dimensions: Russia-Ukraine and US-Iran
  • The possibility of nations rethinking their nonproliferation commitments due to eroding trust in nuclear umbrellas.
    • Quote:
      “There is a perception that the nuclear factor is back on the table and it is growing in its relevance in terms of decision making, in terms of what nations do.”
      — Grossi [12:27]

• Is IAEA ‘Just an Accountant’ or Effective Watchdog?

  • Grossi rejects the notion that the IAEA is merely ‘an accountant’ rather than a global nuclear ‘policeman:’
    • Quote:
      “If we are an accountant, we are first of all a quite effective one. And secondly, we are one that tells the world what is really happening.”
      — Grossi [14:42]

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Grossi as a Candidate for UN Secretary General

Vision for Resolving US-Iran Conflict & The Role of Diplomacy

• Diplomacy vs. Force
  • Grossi stakes his approach on diplomatic solutions based on his experience, referencing the need for sustainable agreements and quoting Churchill:
    • Quote:
      “Diplomacy. That’s the only way... You know, as Churchill said, jaw-jaw rather than war, war, war.”
      — Grossi [18:24]
  • Notes that modern conflicts rarely have clear-cut winners—stability, not unconditional victory, should be the aim.

Reforming the United Nations

• On UN’s Shortcomings
  • Grossi agrees with widespread perception (including Donald Trump’s) that the UN isn’t meeting its full potential.
    • Quote:
      “If I believed that the UN is hopeless, I would not be a candidate to lead it.”
      — Grossi [20:30]
• Restoring UN’s Value
  • His key reform: Having the UN regain its place as a credible interlocutor for peace.
    • Quote:
      “Restore the UN ability to be adding value, to be an accepted interlocutor for the pursuit of peace.”
      — Grossi [21:42]
• On Nation-States Filling the Void
  • Acknowledges rising influence of middle powers in international mediation; sees a strengthened UN working alongside them.

Rethinking Development and Aid

• Challenging Traditional Aid Models
  • Grossi suggests re-targeting international aid to the truly disadvantaged, citing African perspectives:
    • Quote:
      “It’s about other things. Connectivity, integration, market measures, mobilization, enabling measures, a healthier relation with international finance institutions and so on.”
      — Grossi [23:33]
  • Emphasizes not every problem is solved by traditional aid—advocates for a nuanced, modernized approach.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Iranian compliance:
  “They have their opinion, but they also have responsibilities and obligations and they have to comply with them.” [09:52]
• On the perception of nuclear threats:
  “There is a perception that the nuclear factor is back on the table and it is growing in its relevance in terms of decision making, in terms of what nations do.” [12:27]
• On IAEA’s authority:
  “If we are an accountant, we are first of all a quite effective one.” [14:42]
• On diplomatic solutions:
  “Diplomacy. That’s the only way... as Churchill said, jaw-jaw rather than war, war, war.” [18:24]
• On the UN’s role:
  “If I believed that the UN is hopeless, I would not be a candidate to lead it.” [20:30]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------| | 03:06 | Obligations of Iran under NPT; IAEA’s role | | 07:06 | Reported attacks on Iranian facilities; state of Darkovid site | | 08:14 | Prospects for returning IAEA inspectors to Iran | | 09:52 | On political statements and Iranian cooperation | | 10:37 | Status and risks of Iran’s enriched uranium | | 12:27 | Is the world more dangerous from a nuclear perspective? | | 14:42 | IAEA’s strengths and limitations (accountant vs policeman) | | 18:24 | How Grossi would approach US-Iran conflict as UN Secretary General | | 20:30 | The UN’s challenges and Grossi’s reform vision | | 21:42 | Big changes Grossi would prioritize at the UN | | 23:33 | Rethinking global aid and development strategies |

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Conclusion

Rafael Grossi offers grave, clear-eyed testimony about the world’s rising nuclear dangers while defending the vigilance and necessity of the IAEA. His ambition for broader diplomatic impact sets the stage for a potential transition to UN Secretary General, centered on restoring the UN as a proactive force for peace and reimagining global cooperation in both security and development.

Transcript

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[Rob Young]

hello, I'm BBC presenter Rob Young and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.

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[Rafael Grossi]

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[Rafael Grossi]

This is a war.

[Rob Young]

The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, Rafael Grossi, the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency, spoke to me from his office in Vienna. The IAEA was founded in 1957 and is an autonomous international organization within the United nations system. Its job is to promote the safe, secure and peaceful use of nuclear technology and to check that nuclear material isn't used for military purposes, including nuclear weapons. Rafael Grossi is a former Argentinian diplomat and took up his current post in 2019 and has had to steer the organisation through multiple challenges. When Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, concerns were raised about the prospect of nuclear weapons being used, but also about Ukraine's many nuclear power plants coming under attack. The organization's resources were stretched further still when the recent Middle east conflict began. The us, along with Israel, have had concerns over Iran's nuclear ambitions for many years and reject the Islamic Republic's claim that the country's nuclear program is only for peaceful purposes. Due to the conflict and Tehran's suspicion of outsiders, it's been incredibly difficult for the IAEA to monitor Iran's nuclear program.

[Rafael Grossi]

Let's not forget that Iran continues to be a contracting party to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. And because of this they have a safeguards agreement with us according to which all activities in Iran should be declared and inspected by us. Sometimes Iranian counterparts, they react angrily when I say so. And I remind them that this is not something new. I mean, it's part of their normal responsibilities. Of course they can reject that, but the fact of the matter is that they are under an obligation, voluntarily assumed by them, to have their nuclear activities inspected by the iaea.

[Rob Young]

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Rafael Grossi. Let's start on the conflict between the United States and Iran, if we may, that having calmed down for a while has now escalated. What are your thoughts, particularly when it comes to the nuclear issue?

[Rafael Grossi]

Well, of course, when it comes to this conflict, one fundamental truth, and I think it should always be remembered, is that this is how it all started. Isn't started with concerns that grew into the decision by the United States that the nuclear program in Iran, in their perception, was leading to nuclear weapons development. Now it has become a multidimensional conflict, but the triggering cause was the nuclear thing. And the basic concerns that existed back then in a certain sense remain not completely or not in the same way when it started, and I take as a line of departure, if you want, June 2025 with a 12 day war. And at that time, of course, that conflict was, I would say specifically nuclear, but aimed at the nuclear capabilities and the infrastructure in Iran. Of course, other targets were included and so on, but what was at the center of it were a number of facilities. Subsequently, attempts to negotiate were tried until February this year. And I was personally taking part in a few of those meetings. And of course we have a memorandum of understanding whose status we are not completely sure. The President of the United States has declared it in a certain sense, as terminated. But we don't know whether that is the case or not. But a few of the fundamental concerning factors remain. And by this I refer first and foremost to 440kg, some 900lb of highly enriched uranium, which is still, of course, in Iran. We're talking about sizable infrastructure which, albeit attacked severely, I should say, by the United States and damaged considerably during those attacks. Still there.

[Rob Young]

And I want to come back to the issue of that highly enriched uranium, if I can, in a moment. In recent days, the Iranian authorities have accused the Americans of bombing a partially constructed nuclear power plant at Darkovid in the southwest of Iran. What do you know about that? What was a nuclear power plant hit?

[Rafael Grossi]

Not yet. Not yet. It has been announced by, and we are aware of dark covin for a long time. Iran has a number of facilities that they have announced they would have in future, but very little has been done there. Some very basic construction work, but it is not a nuclear power plant at the moment. At least when the first news of a possible attack were published or were issued by Iran, of course, the iea, we have also a responsibility in terms of nuclear safety and informing the people about any dangers that may exist. Of course, we were, I think, very clear to say from the beginning, well, there's no nuclear material here. There is no nuclear reactor per se. There is, of course an intention to have a nuclear reactor at some point and some initial construction work there.

[Rob Young]

When do you think you'll be able to get inspectors into Iran?

[Rafael Grossi]

I don't know. I think we should be there already. It should be soon. The mou, if you remember, said that within this time frame of 60 days to have a definitive agreement that all activities related to the monitoring and verification in Iran would be carried out under the supervision, and I'm quoting the supervision of the IAEA as it should, because let's not forget that Iran, Iran continues to be a contracting party to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, the npt. And because of this they have a safeguards agreement with us according to which all activities in Iran should be declared and inspected by us. But it was good that in that high level, if you want political document, this was reiterated. So we should go back. This is no doubt sometimes Iranian counterparts, they react angrily when I say so. And I remind them that this is not something new. I mean, it's part of their normal responsibilities. Of course they can reject that, but the fact of the matter is that they are under an obligation, voluntarily assumed by them, to have their nuclear activities inspected by the iaea.

[Rob Young]

The Foreign Ministry in Tehran has said that they aren't going to change the way they cooperate with you unless you stop making what they call political statements.

[Rafael Grossi]

Well, again, of course I will not enter into an argument with a Foreign Minister or the Foreign Ministry because sometimes those statements are mostly attributed or from the spokesperson, not from Minister Arakchi himself. I don't know this one you are referring to. But first of all, that is an opinion. They are entitled to have an opinion. Everything I say, I say in my capacity and within my authorities as Director General of the iea. So they have their opinion, but they also have responsibilities and obligations and they have to comply with them.

[Rob Young]

You mentioned before the 440kg of highly enriched uranium which Iran is thought to have. Do you agree with the Americans that it is dust trapped underground?

[Rafael Grossi]

Well, I think, if I may say so, it's like some form of poetic language. It's not dust, you know, of course, first of all, that is in gas form. So it doesn't matter too much. I think it is a way of expressing. I think it was a colorful expression by the President to say that this is in tunnels and there has been damage and debris and there is an amount of material there. The material is important. This is highly enriched uranium at very close to weapon level grade. So for us as iaea, it is very, very important to go back and to check it.

[Rob Young]

And what's your view as to what should happen to it?

[Rafael Grossi]

Well, that is for Iran to decide, really, because it belongs to them. It's part of a negotiation with the United States. So I shouldn't maybe, as PG of the iea, say what they should do with it. What they should do is declare it and have it inspected and not diverted to any end which is not peaceful. This is what they should according to the law, not according to the DG of the iaea. I am the guarantor and the guardian of those commitments and those obligations. Nothing more than, nothing less as to what they should. There are alternatives, as you know, that they have been discussing down, blend it, ship it out somewhere. But this is a political decision that they must take.

[Rob Young]

Do you think the world is more a more dangerous place from a nuclear perspective today than it was just a couple of years ago?

[Rafael Grossi]

I think so, because it is obvious that first of all we have this war which has been triggered by concerns. And I'm not saying whether these are justified or not. I'm trying to be objective here by concerns about a nuclear program. We have another war which is very, very important in Europe between the Russian Federation, a nuclear weapons state, and Ukraine, a non nuclear weapons state, where there is a nuclear dimension to it, which is very, very important. On and around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant where my inspectors are stationed and which I have visited, as you may perhaps know, several times. But there have been during this long conflict, more than five years now, moments where issues related to possible use of nuclear weapons or the existence of radiological weapons were mentioned. To that you have to add the ongoing debate, perhaps this growing impression that due to geopolitical divides, countries are having second thoughts about non proliferation or their heretofore non proliferation obligations, in the sense that many countries were relying or are still relying on nuclear umbrellas which they might feel are not so protective as they used to be in the past. So undoubtedly to your question, and without wishing to exaggerate things, there is a perception that the nuclear factor is back on the table and it is growing in its relevance in terms of decision making, in terms of what nations do.

[Rob Young]

And so does your organization, then the International Atomic Energy Agency need more powers because it is often described as as an accountant, not a policeman. And if the world is more dangerous from a nuclear perspective, surely we need a policeman in charge, not an accountant.

[Rafael Grossi]

Well, I would not agree with this view that we are an accountant. And in any case, if we are an accountant, we are first of all a quite effective one. And secondly, we are one that tells the world what is happening, what is really happening. And let's not forget that the IAEA is the institution that provides this technical analysis. But at the end of the day, it's nations, the ones taking decisions. So more powers? I don't know. I think the powers that the IEA have, which are quite unique in the international UN system in general, when exercised with firmness but with fairness, are very, very effective.

[Rob Young]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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[Rob Young]

Rafael Grossi spoke to me from his wood paneled office at the IAEA headquarters in Vienna. Seated in a large black leather chair, he kept swinging from side to side as he spoke, but he wants to give up that seat for, metaphorically, an even bigger one. Rafael Grossi is currently campaigning to be the next Secretary General of the United Nations. The current head of the UN is stepping down at the end of the year and Grossi, who is regarded as one of the frontrunners in a race of half a dozen candidates, has plans to shake up the UN if he gets to lead it. So let's return to my conversation with Rafael Grossi.

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Now.

[Rob Young]

You would like to be Secretary General of of the United nations when the current Secretary General's term ends at the end of this year. If you were in that job, how would you try to bring about an end to the conflict between Iran and the United States?

[Rafael Grossi]

Diplomacy. That's the only way. And I say that not on the basis of any wishful thinking. I say that on the basis of my own experience here. I believe that conflicts of this nature can only find a durable, sustainable solution when you have agreements that provide a degree of stability. And what we are lacking here, and we are seeing it, is that reaching the point where you have a stable situation in international relations is something that you can achieve only in two ways. The violent way through wars or the diplomatic way. Peace negotiations. You know, as Churchill said, Jojo, rather than war, war, war. So the situation like the Second World War or other conflicts where total victory, unconditional surrenders and things like this used to happen seem not to be as achievable. Now look at what is happening on the Strait of Hormuz, for example, or the use of drones, or many multi dimensional aspects of warfare that make outcomes less than outright hundred percent clear. And when you lack this black or white outcomes, then you need to reach these plateaus of stability and in different ways. And of course diplomacy is that. And of course the UN wabs and all is what we have is the global institution par excellence which is indispensable, continues to be indispensable.

[Rob Young]

Well, you would need to persuade Donald Trump, of course, with your diplomacy to bring the war with Iran to a conclusion do you agree with him in a sense then, when he told the, the General assembly last year that the United nations is not even coming close to living up to its potential?

[Rafael Grossi]

I think he's not the only one who thinks that, mind you. I think many people agree with this idea that the UN we created 80 years ago to save succeeding generations. You remember the words of the preamble of the UN Charter. So I think this, and I think it's interesting that you mentioned him because people say the, the US do not believe in the, in the un. I don't think that is true. What they are saying, and some others, many others, is that the UN is not living up to the potential, to the expectations we have on it. If I believed that the UN is hopeless, I would not be a candidate to lead it. If I am so is because I believe that something can be done. It will not be a panacea, obviously, but it can be a much better institution and it can help because it's about adding value. It's not about the institution itself, it's what it does.

[Rob Young]

And so what is the one big change then that you would like to bring in if you were to become Secretary General?

[Rafael Grossi]

There are so many things, but if you ask, one thing is that is restore the UN ability to be adding value, to be an accepted interlocutor for the pursuit of peace, which is not

[Rob Young]

because we've had nation states taking on the role that many people say the United nations should have taken on in, for example, the conflict between India, Pakistan, the civil war in Sudan. Is that latter conflict I mentioned, one that you, as Secretary General, would put your back into attempting to end?

[Rafael Grossi]

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? And to the examples that you gave, we could add more. So we see many countries stepping in. Nothing wrong with that, Nothing wrong with that. But as you can see, the dynamic of international relations, in the dynamic of international relations, this emptiness will be filled with somehow. And so you have middle powers, and I will not cite them, but you can see different countries in Asia, in the subcontinent, in the near east, in other places which are trying to play these roles. It may be the case that this will continue. But if we had a UN that could be alongside these leaders trying to provide the underpinnings, the consolidating factors that you may need exposed or during the negotiations, I think we could be in a better place. Yes.

[Rob Young]

How would you attempt to persuade those countries that have reduced their financial contributions to aid agencies, including some of the United nations own organisations, to increase them again? At a time of financial pressure at home.

[Rafael Grossi]

Well, that is a very good point because it takes us to a different debate, which is the debate about development. And what we see is that there is a model of foreign aid assistance based development which is becoming obsolete. And this is something that developing countries themselves are recognizing. I was at a very fascinating summit in Africa in Nairobi a few months ago with the President of Kenya. President Ruto was saying, well, it's not the problem of capital. We are generating more capital here in Africa than all the assistance that we are getting. It's about other things. Connectivity, integration, market measures, mobilization enabling measures, a healthier relation with international finance institutions and so on. So I'm not saying that official direct assistance is not important, but it should perhaps be oriented to those who really need it. Landlocked, least developed countries, small island developing States, areas where there are objective structural obstacles to development and perhaps less to other economies. So here I think a new approach might be needed and not one that I am making up right now. I mean, this is something that many people have been discussing is regrettable. Yes, it is regrettable that countries are deciding to put less money, for example, in assisting others and putting more maybe in manufacturing weapons. Yes, this is an objective truth. But in the face of it, we have to react differently. We cannot keep doing the same thing as in the 1960s.

[BBC Podcast Announcer]

These.

[Rob Young]

Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Russia's nuclear envoy Mikhail Ulyanov, the UNICEF chief Catherine Russell, and the Artemis 2 astronaut Victor Glover. Until the next time. Bye bye.

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