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The Interview
Robert Brovdi, Ukraine drone commander: Striking inside Russia
00:22:59
Ukrainian commander on how drones are striking deep inside Russian territory.
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- [00:00]
BBC Podcast Announcer
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- [00:06]
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- [01:10]
BBC Podcast Announcer
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- [01:40]
Sarah Rainsford
hello, I'm Sarah Rainsford, the BBC's southern and eastern Europe correspondent. And this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.
- [01:56]
Commander Robert Brovdy
If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united.
- [02:04]
Sarah Rainsford
Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey.
- [02:07]
Commander Robert Brovdy
Being born in America, feeling American, having
- [02:09]
American Medical Association Narrator
people treat me like I'm not.
- [02:11]
Sarah Rainsford
We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I travelled to a secret command center in eastern Ukraine for a rare interview with Robert Brody. He's the head of Ukraine's Unmanned Systems Forces all its drone units. More than four years into Russia's full scale invasion, drones have become central to how this war is being fought. They're now used not only on the frontline inside Ukraine, but to strike targets deep inside Russia itself, including energy, infrastructure and military sites. That wasn't always the case. Robert Brovdy first used drones to spot Russian positions and then direct strikes on them using artillery units. But soon all that changed.
- [02:58]
Commander Robert Brovdy
I will tell you when it truly transformed, when we only had reconnaissance drones, we Learned fast. But reconnaissance drones did not allow us to destroy the enemy directly. We had to rely on artillery. Then we began attaching certain warheads to the drones. At first these were grenades, then homemade munitions that we produced ourselves. We would locate the enemy with the drone and drop them on him. Then, in June, FPV drones entered our lives. An FPV drone is a one way disposable drone. It is cheaper than a reconnaissance drone and and can carry a heavier munition. That was the moment the turning point began. We built first FPV drones ourselves, buying components, fastening them together, making homemade munitions. That was when the way of war began to change. From a war imposed by the enemy, where you simply wait and hope you don't die in your position, to when the drone appeared and you could influence the situation.
- [04:07]
Sarah Rainsford
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Commander Robert Brovdy. And a warning. This interview contains some descriptions of death and violence.
- [04:21]
Commander Robert Brovdy
When we went to war, we followed the call of our hearts. We did not know what awaited us. Putin promised to take Kyiv in three days. So we gathered in the territorial defense. They gave us rifles without defined tasks, only to defend what we had around us. For those first three months, the enemy was imposing its kind of war on us. We could not find a way to respond effectively. Our unit consisted almost entirely of civilians. Some were entrepreneurs and we transferred our organizational skills directly into the military environment. When we arrived in the south, the enemy had captured Kherson and was pushing towards Mykolaiv. We, as infantrymen, found ourselves in trenches. Something was killing us. We were taking losses, but we could not respond. This was when the first thought of a drone appeared. To put it up in the air and see what was on the other side. When we launched the drones, we saw that they were dug in behind the canals and covered with concrete slabs. That tank would come out like from a garage fire and hide again. The drone allowed us to see it, but we had no weapons to destroy what we saw. So we turned to neighboring brigades that had artillery. We transmitted a live feed from the drone and began adjusting their fire. And the nearby units started conducting accurate strikes.
- [05:50]
Interviewer
Am I right in thinking that these drones were just basic, really basic drones, and one of them was your son's drone? At the beginning,
- [05:59]
Commander Robert Brovdy
the first time I bought a drone, it was for my kids when I was on a business trip in Singapore. So my kids were playing with one. And somehow I remembered in my head that even a kid can fly such a device a couple of hundreds of meters up and See what you cannot see from the ground. It was an association that came up at that moment. This idea first developed as self preservation.
- [06:27]
Interviewer
It completely changed the battlefield. It changed the way this war is being fought. As drones came into this war, that completely transformed the way.
- [06:37]
Commander Robert Brovdy
I will tell you when it truly transformed. When we only had reconnaissance drones, we learned fast. But reconnaissance drones did not allow us to destroy the enemy directly. We had to rely on artillery. Then we began attaching certain warheads to the drones. At first these were grenades, then homemade munitions that we produced ourselves. We would locate the enemy with the drone and drop them on him. Then in June, FPV drones entered our lives. An FPV drone is a one way disposable drone. It is cheaper than a reconnaissance drone and can carry a heavier munition. That was the moment the turning point began. We built first FPV drones ourselves, buying components, fastening them together, making homemade munitions. That was when the way of war began to change. From a war imposed by the enemy, where you simply wait and hope you don't die in your position, to when the drone appeared and you could influence the situation. You were no longer being led, you were leading. You set the tone. You could affect the enemy's plans.
- [07:49]
Interviewer
From that moment that you're describing. From that time to now, the transformation has been enormous. And drones play a massively important role in this war. How would you describe the importance of your unmanned systems forces right now, at this point in the war? How would you describe your role and your significance now? Now.
- [08:12]
Commander Robert Brovdy
Our most valuable asset is our soldiers. Mobilization in Ukraine in the 5th year of war is, to put it mildly, difficult. Those who wanted to fight are already fighting. Those who wanted to leave have already left. Recruitment continues constantly, but not at the speed we need. The main priority of deterrence is to have a direct impact on enemy personnel. I'll translate that into simple killing their manpower. Doing this with your own manpower is very dangerous because replacements are slow. But trading enemy soldiers for a plastic and metal drone that costs 300 to $500 is the best exchange rate in the world. We trade a drone worth a few hundred dollars for the life of a Russian assault soldier.
- [09:06]
Interviewer
Are you increasing the numbers because you're focusing so much on that target, on that goal, or because you're doing something different technically?
- [09:17]
Commander Robert Brovdy
First, it is the system of priorities. The first priority is the destruction of enemy drone pilots who inflict heavy losses on the personnel of our Ukrainian Defence Forces to knock out logistics, disrupt offensive actions, violate positions, and so on. And the second priority is Their manpower. We have a plan for that. 30% of all drone strikes by unmanned system forces must be against military personnel.
- [09:44]
Interviewer
There's like a kill plan, basically, for
- [09:46]
Commander Robert Brovdy
Russians, yes, you can call it a kill plan. Right now we are exceeding the plan. We are at about 34%.
- [09:54]
Interviewer
In fact, the decision is to kill more soldiers than Russia can mobilize. When the soldiers are already no threat and they're on their own, isolated, hiding behind a bush, is there no thought of taking them prisoner instead? Because I know there's also orders to take as many prisoners to have, like a fund for exchange, for example. I mean, is it normal just to kill if a soldier's on their own in a bush somewhere?
- [10:22]
Commander Robert Brovdy
Let's not touch on the norms of international law here or, or have any doubts. The enemy came to our land. He is far outside his country. We don't go after the injured, and where possible, we take all the prisoners we can in order to exchange for our own lads. But not for a moment should we be ignored by doubt or any pity for the enemy. Because if we don't kill him, he will kill us. That is clear. We didn't invite him here. A person who is coming towards us with a weapon in his hands is. Is hardly a gardener or a traveler. This is an enemy that has come hundreds of kilometers outside his territory, intending to go as far as possible and raise their three color Russian flag. I don't even know what is more important to Putin to take more land when he already has land all the way to Vladivostok and up to China, or simply to destroy us as a nation. It seems to me that destroying us as an independent nation is his main priority. But that is not acceptable to us. The number of soldiers burials in Russia leads to certain social shifts, because even under the censorship that exists in Russia, with restrictions on social media and the absence of alternative views, people are clearly asking each other the question, what is this special military operation for? And this begins to stir and create a certain ferment in society.
- [11:57]
Sarah Rainsford
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service with me, Sarah Rainsford.
- [12:05]
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- [12:32]
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- [13:08]
Sarah Rainsford
it wasn't easy to meet Commander Brovdy. He doesn't speak to journalists very often, but we managed to secure this interview at a time when Ukrainian drones were making real headlines by striking deep inside Russian territory. They'd been hitting oil facilities in particular. But getting to him wasn't easy either. His location's top secret. He's a prime target for Russian forces. So we met some contacts in a location in eastern Ukraine and they drove us in a van with blacked out windows. Think. At one point we went over some fields and then eventually we had to go down several flights of stairs to emerge into this high tech cavern, the command center underground. There were lots of soldiers there, hunched over keyboards and joysticks. There were screens on every wall from floor to ceiling and lots of sounds. There were the beeps and the alerts from incoming data from the battlefield. All those screens covered in live feeds from drone units on the battlefield. Now, the commander himself is ethnically Hungarian. He's from the far west of Ukraine, and actually in Ukraine, he's best known by his call sign, Madhya. He's got quite a backstory. He used to be a grain dealer. He was pretty wealthy before the war and he was very big in promoting Ukrainian art. So he was often seen at auction houses like Sotheby's or Christie's in London, which is of course a massive world away from where we met him. He was pretty softly spoken too. And all of that really made some of what he had to say to me quite chilling. The way he talked about the kill rate for Russian soldiers in particular, how they were just numbers for him and his total apparent lack of pity for the other side. I asked him about that directly. And remember, this is a man who spent a long time in the infantry, in the trenches, fighting in some of the most brutal battles of this war. And the way he sees it out there, it is kill or be killed. He's seen the ruthlessness of the Russian forces in Bucha and in Bakhmut, and he has no illusions at all. When I pushed him, he did say his forces would take prisoners if they could. But he was very clear that Ukraine needed to reduce the number of soldiers that Russia can fight with. For Commander Brovdy, I think the goal is just to use his drones, to use the technology to defend Ukrainian land as best he can. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Commander Robert Brody.
- [15:37]
Interviewer
I want to ask you about the deep strikes. I want to ask you about what you've been doing in terms of hitting targets further and further inside Russia. I think you've set up a new deep strike center as well for that. So there seems to be this new focus on deep strikes in Russia. Can you tell me why? What's the aim? What's that? What's the thinking?
- [15:56]
Commander Robert Brovdy
It's simple. The destruction of the military industrial complex, infrastructure, military facilities and logistics. The destruction of the source of financing
- [16:07]
Interviewer
for the war, which includes oil, which includes energy.
- [16:14]
Commander Robert Brovdy
Putin extracts natural resources and converts them into bloody dollars. They exchange the natural resources of their land for dollars which they later direct against us.
- [16:27]
Interviewer
So you're specifically targeting, focusing on the particularly the oil export potential of Russia
- [16:34]
Commander Robert Brovdy
to achieve an economic effect. The key target is the extraction of petroleum products. Crude oil and their export. That's the quickest route for them to make money. Second, there is their military industrial complex. They produce a great deal of toxic weaponry which they use against us in this war.
- [16:54]
Interviewer
If we talk about these specifically, the oil, the oil exports, the energy exports, how successful do you think you've been in your strikes recently, the last couple of months, focusing specifically on the energy sector?
- [17:10]
Commander Robert Brovdy
Look, the economic assessment is done by economic analysts. But you cannot shut an oil well on Thursday and reopen it on Friday. It can either be sealed or operating. The accumulation of these petroleum products requires storage facilities. When those are constantly on fire, it limits their capacity and prevents exports. These are very substantial sums of money that could be used to finance the war. Deep strikes must be carried out and will continue to be carried out non stop against a wide range of targets, all of them united, by one definition, legitimate military targets. If all refineries are a tool to convert resources into money that will later be used for war, then these are a lawful military target which are subject to destruction. Some drones are intercepted, of course. Russia's air defense is working, but enough get through to cause serious damage to their facilities tied to war production and military targets. This rhythm must be maintained continuously without stopping, because they, I would not say very quickly, but they do recover. In other words, any metal infrastructure Destroyed by drones can be rebuilt on the same site or nearby. So this process should be non stop. So for this, the number of these deep strikes must only be increased.
- [18:36]
Interviewer
I just wanted to understand technologically, in terms of the drones that you're using, has your technology developed to make. I'm trying to understand why these strikes are more successful in recent months. Is it just that you're trying harder, you're focusing your efforts on the energy experts, or is it also the drones that you're using?
- [18:53]
Commander Robert Brovdy
First of all, it is the weakening of the enemy's air defense. We work non stop against their air defense equipment, anti aircraft missile systems and so on, which are all supposed to stop our long range drones. When a large drone flies, all these tactical air defense systems knock out a lot of drones. So we direct our efforts to destroy, to weaken their air defenses. In order to enter a door, it must be opened. In order to fly far, you need to clear a channel. In order to cut that channel, you need to destroy the air defenses beneath you. So we are targeting our strikes at them. The share of air defense systems does not exceed 20% of our targets. In every 100 sorties, around 20% are directed against air defence systems. All the rest are other lawful military targets. These include places of accumulation of personnel on the front or beyond the front preparing for an assault. It's also ammunition depots, fuel depots, because tanks and even the motorbikes used by the enemy only move if they are filled with fuel. Our allies talk about having the best drone, but I say no. The drone is part of an entire ecosystem. It's like the bullet in a gun, but in order for the bullet to reach the target, there must be a gun. A man must be trained. A whole series of events should occur before the bullet will reach and hit the bullseye. The only limit is resources, the financial resources with which our partners are helping us maintain the rhythm of the war. Now they already see a parity when our strikes really do damage and the enemy is forced to slow down its offensive operation. But I would dwell more on the battlefield than on long range strikes. Because it's on the field, on the battlefield, on all screens. That's where the struggle is being fought over the loss or preservation of every square kilometer of Ukraine. We do not suffer the same level of human losses when using drones en masse. We trade plastic and steel for enemy manpower. This is perhaps the most significant factor for the future course of the war. Endurance depends on this capability. Another feature is the penetration of drones into the conflict and their dominant role as weapons of destruction, disrupting their economy and hitting the blood dollars by limiting their revenues and increasing their losses, making their oil exports and production less effective. All of this adds to the negative sentiment inside Russia, which could potentially raise tensions to the point that they create a destructive process within the country. This was not the case in 2022. 2023. The turning point came in 2024, when we began to kill more with drones than with all other weapons combined. Now, no one disputes that drones are the primary weapon for destroying the enemy.
- [22:01]
Interviewer
So what's your biggest problem now in terms of what Russia is capable of doing? What is your biggest challenge in defending Ukraine?
- [22:11]
Commander Robert Brovdy
The problem is time. I would not even call it a problem. We need time to fully realize a simple a drone line. Building this drone line along the entire front must happen as quickly as possible. Within these 20, 25 km, all assault actions and logistics will take place. Closing this drone line is our major current challenge because for that we need technical equipment, drones which we have, and resources which we also have this year. What we need are people and time for their training.
- [22:46]
Interviewer
I was quite surprised. There's also some paintings on the wall and you've got sculptures here in amongst all of this technology in your command centre, it's important to you to keep the art.
- [22:56]
Commander Robert Brovdy
I was also involved in contemporary art. It was a major part of my life promoting modern Ukrainian art abroad. I was often in London and Sotheby's, Christie's and other venues. Art has always been a huge part of my life. I was born among paintings where I was born in Transcarpathia, there is a very distinctive school of art, different from others in modern Ukraine because of a strong mix of cultures over a short historical period. Czechoslovakia, Austria, Hungary, the Soviet Union and modern Ukraine that created pride and natural interest. You notice many paintings here. Among all the technological things like drones, Art has accompanied our family throughout life. Later, everything developed further and the Brovdi Art foundation appeared, an organization with an international focus on promoting modern Ukrainian art. We wanted people not only to know where Ukraine is on the map, but to know it has talented artists and sculptors. Art lives. It lives even now, during the war.
- [24:07]
Interviewer
Do you think you're ever going back to your normal life as a grain dealer and an art trader? And to the man that Robert Brovdy was before this war?
- [24:19]
Commander Robert Brovdy
I would say that I have an objective assessment of the impossibility of returning to peaceful life in the form it once was. This is because I am considered a priority target of Putin's special services and History has shown that no matter who is in power there, their special services have a long institutional memory when it comes to elimination that will obviously accompany me for the rest of my life. But this does not affect my level of motivation or my confidence in the justness of our actions and my work, which is now being converted into losses for the enemy. We will be doing this all our future lives. There is no talk of an end to this war right now. We have no illusions, no rose colored glasses, not even a second of hope for that life as it was will not return.
- [25:14]
Sarah Rainsford
Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky and Antonio Guterres, Secretary General of the un, as well as many others. Until the next time. Bye. For now,
- [25:47]
Britbox Narrator
She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama, Marry you Will Flourish, based on the best selling novel the Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch for the free trial@britbox.com.