← The Interview
The Interview
Shabana Mahmood, British Home Secretary: Do not make that boat crossing
00:24:03
Nick Robinson speaks to British Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood about the UK asylum system
Loading summary
Transcript71 lines
- [00:00]
Nick Robinson
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:07]
Sarah (AM PM ad)
Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell oatmeal. So long you strange soggy.
- [00:25]
Ray Winstone
Break up with bland breakfast and taste AM PM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with cage free eggs, smoked bacon and melty chees buttery biscuit. AM P M Too much good stuff. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcast who define tough.
- [00:51]
Ray Winstone (car story)
And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
- [00:59]
Ray Winstone
Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:08]
Nick Robinson
Hello, I'm Nick Robinson, BBC presenter, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC people shaping our world from all over the world.
- [01:21]
Shabana Mahmood
Today we are spending trillions on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 30, 33 years. Isn't that enough?
- [01:29]
Nick Robinson
Solar for 25 years, that's enough.
- [01:31]
Shabana Mahmood
I don't have army, I don't have missile rockets. I have my body, I have my voice.
- [01:37]
Ray Winstone
I love singing. And so my goal was always to do better and better at it.
- [01:41]
Shabana Mahmood
I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me.
- [01:47]
Nick Robinson
For this interview, I speak to the British Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood in our BBC studio across the road from Parliament. You're going to hear about her plans to drastically overhaul the UK's asylum system and her description of the racist abuse she still experiences as the daughter of Pakistani immigrants that underpins her approach. Challenged about whether her plans will fuel racial divisions in the uk, she believes the opposite is the case, that a country without secure borders is, in her words, a less safe country for those who look like me. If the asylum system feels unfair, she tells me, resentment breeds anger, and anger can breed hate. But as a minister in Britain's Labour government, her proposals have prompted significant opposition both within her own party and beyond. Under the plans, refugee status will become temporary, with those granted asylum facing reviews every 30 months if their home country is judged to be safe and they'll be told to return. As for children born in Britain to asylum seekers, the Home Secretary acknowledges that this presents a particular challenge and one she says she'll address in future announcements. Guaranteed housing support for asylum seekers will also end. There'll be newly defined safe and legal routes into the uk, although with an annual cap on numbers, there's also going to be a big jump in. In the amount of time refugees need to be resident in the UK before they can apply for permanent residence or indefinite leave. To remain, it's currently five years, and for those who don't get a job or claim benefits, for example, they might have to wait as long as 20 years.
- [03:32]
Shabana Mahmood
The message I'm sending is clear. I am trying to change the calculus in the minds of the people that are about to get on a boat, which is, this is the worst way to come to this country. Even if you are granted refugee status, it is a difficult path to settlement. It will be much more difficult, and that I'm doing that deliberately because I do not want people to get on boats and come to this country that way. I also don't want them to overstay their visas and then switch straight into the asylum route, which we know a lot of people do, because they know it takes so long that by the time they get a definitive answer on their claim after multiple appeals, they've probably been here so long they'll have accrued enough rights to stay. I'm trying to disadvantage those two groups deliberately because ultimately what I want to do is advantage the people that come here through safe and legal routes, which I want to set up and expand.
- [04:21]
Nick Robinson
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Shabana Mahmood. I want to start with words you used in the House of Commons, words that you were asked to apologize for, words I am not permitted to repeat on air under BBC guidelines. But I'm sure you did it deliberately. You wanted people to hear, I think, the sort of abuse that you get.
- [04:46]
Shabana Mahmood
Yes, I did, but it was actually less about me in that moment and more that I was responding to the Liberal Democrat spokesperson at the time. But I had had a similar comment from others during the course of the debate in Parliament, which was to say that I was adopting far right talking points, that there wasn't this problem in our country, that even acknowledging or suggesting there was was somehow a failure on my part. And I just really wanted to lance that boil, because I think that that assertion, place of privilege, which is a place where someone doesn't have to walk through their life in this country and ever hear themselves told to f off home. And I just really wanted to challenge that because it is the direct opposite of why I am dealing with these issues. It's my job. I'm the Home Secretary. But I think that telling the truth about what the scale of a problem is is the first step you have to take before you can think about what the correct solutions are. And it disappointed me very much that so many people in the House there are still minority, but, you know, they were pretty vocal, were wanting to suggest there wasn't a problem at all. It flies in the face of every experience that I have, my family has, and in fact, that my constituents have as well. I mean, I don't pay attention to social media, but there is a ton of abuse that comes in my direction, not just from anonymous accounts every day, but even worse named people in the real world who email me and write to me and tell me. And if I didn't have police officers as part of my security detail these days, I'm sure many of those would come up to my face and say it too.
- [06:22]
Nick Robinson
People would shout that abuse effing p word in your face.
- [06:26]
Shabana Mahmood
Yes. And it has happened more in recent times to not just myself, but close family members. I worry about headscarf wearing women in my family in particular. I'm not alone in that. Every Muslim I know these days worries a lot more about vocal racism being shouted at them in the street.
- [06:47]
Nick Robinson
So it's got worse because last time you were here, we talk about your upbringing, we talked about the fact that your parents had come from Kashmir, how there'd been a baseball bat in the family shop to deal partly with thieves, but partly with racist abusers who came into the shop. And you said you were called that word back then.
- [07:07]
Shabana Mahmood
Yes. There has always been some racism wherever I've been in the country. My childhood at school, at university, in my working life as well. It's not that it's never been there, but it's never been as much as I feel like it is now. You know, I was born in 1980. I spent the early years of my life in Saudi Arabia. My dad was a civil engineer. So we lived there for a while, returned home in the late 80s. We had avoided some of the worst of the skinhead, you know, era of British life in the 70s. But, you know, it's always been there, but it's not been there at the level that I think it is now.
- [07:41]
Nick Robinson
And why is that, do you think? Why is it worse now?
- [07:43]
Shabana Mahmood
I think there's more polarization and division in society. I think that there has been a lot of scapegoating of Muslims in particular. The world changed after 9, 11. It became much more acceptable to pin the actions of a minority of people claiming to act in the name of our religion on the whole of us and, you know, all of us being held to account for the actions of those individuals. So it has been growing over a period of time, but I think at the moment there is depolarization. It isn't just in relation to why to be in extremism or terrorism, but it is about the issue of migration itself. The story of who we are as Britain and ethnic minority Britons, I feel, is been contested today in a way it hasn't for a decade or more.
- [08:24]
Nick Robinson
You know what some say, and some said it in the House of Commons, they say you make it worse by saying that the country is divided. You're fueling the divide, you're legitimizing the comments that some people make. But I'm struck by that phrase that you had. I know that a country without secure borders is a less safe country for those who look like me. You're claiming, are you, that if you get this right, this package on illegal immigration, there'll be less of that racist abuse.
- [08:51]
Shabana Mahmood
I think that secure borders are a precondition to unlock. What I also believe is true, which is that the British people are a generous people, that we have welcomed people from all over the world and we have been willing to go on a journey with those people who have made this country their home. Like my parents and others who've come here as migrants, we've gone on the journey with them. At the end of that journey, they become one of us. And I think that story of how we all become one of us is a really powerful thing about our country. It's an incredible thing in this multi faith, multi ethnic democracy of ours. But I do think secure borders are a condition of that, because when people feel like they are in charge of who comes in and who has to leave, that is the basis on which the wider generosity of the people is unlocked.
- [09:40]
Nick Robinson
Let's wind back. You've been clear that what you're trying to do is to say to people massed on the coast in France or people heading to the coast of France, don't think about it. You've Talked about the WhatsApps that they send each other, those potential asylum seekers, about what's on offer here. If you could write the WhatsApp as a result of the policies user unveiled, what do you want them to hear.
- [10:08]
Shabana Mahmood
Do not make that boat crossing, do not make that journey. Do not pay all of your money to people smugglers and criminals, because that's what those people are. They are criminals. They are not just people smugglers. They indulge in all sorts of other organised crime. These are highly sophisticated organized crime groups. People should not be giving their money to them.
- [10:26]
Nick Robinson
Sure, but they've heard that. They heard that under the last government, again and again, people say, don't do it, but they say, no, no. Either we're scared for our lives or we just think we can get a better life. We're prepared to pay, we're prepared to take the risk. So what's new this week as a result of what you've said, that might.
- [10:43]
Shabana Mahmood
Change their calculus, that the risk is not worth it? And much of what is being sold to people as they make that decision. Get on a boat is part of the package that we offer. It's the relative ease with which permanent settlement can be attained. It used to be the family reunification rights, which were very generous compared to our European counterparts, which were temporarily halted by Yvette Cooper when she was my predecessor and retained by me, the ability to melt into the illegal economy and to be able to earn money and to support themselves through illegal working. So there are big gaps in our system. Those are being exploited. They are being sold as part of the package to people so that they get on those boats and make those journeys.
- [11:24]
Nick Robinson
Is this too complicated, though? I mean, the Tories had a simple message. Now you'll tell me it didn't work, but it did work a bit as a deterrent, the Rwanda policy, didn't it? Because it was very simple. You arrive, you won't get to stay here, you might get shipped off to Africa. Now you'll say it didn't work, the courts didn't allow it to happen, and so on. But it seems to me your policy isn't at all simple. It's like, well, this might happen and that might change. And if the courts allow and if we get a vote through Parliament, what changes before next spring when the weather changes and a thousand people a day might be able to come, what's going to be different? That should be on those WhatsApp messages saying, hold on, guys, don't even think about it.
- [12:05]
Shabana Mahmood
I think it does change the calculus because firstly, people are being told there's free bed and board available and we're changing the rules about that. They will be told that they will quickly. If they just wait a few years be able to attain settlement. We're changing the rules on that, the whole of the package at every stage. The journey from coming in this country, waiting for too much time to have your claim heard and whether you're going to get a grant of refugee status or not, and the relative ease with which you can get permanent settlement, I think all of that has been a pull factor. I think it is right that we deal with those pull factors. And the message I'm sending is clear. I am trying to change the calculus in the minds of the people that are about to get on a boat, which is this is the worst way to come to this country. Even if you are granted refugee status, it is a difficult path to settlement. It will be much more difficult, and that I'm doing that deliberately because I do not want people to get on boats and come to this country that way. I also don't want them to overstay their visas and then switch straight into the asylum route, which we know a lot of people do, because they know it takes so long that by the time they get a definitive answer on their claim after multiple appeals, they've probably been here so long they'll have accrued enough rights to stay. I'm trying to disadvantage those two groups deliberately because ultimately what I want to do is advantage the people that come here through safe and legal routes, which I want to set up and expand. And those people who come that way will have already been accepted as a refugee out of country. They arrive in country as a refugee. Their path to settlement, their path to building a life in this country, will be faster, quicker, more successful, the easier path, the better path. That's what I'm trying to do.
- [13:42]
Nick Robinson
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world.
- [13:50]
Ray Winstone
Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.
- [14:05]
Ray Winstone (car story)
And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
- [14:13]
Ray Winstone
Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.
- [14:23]
Nick Robinson
For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to Shabana Mahmood. When I spoke to Shabana Mahmood in our BBC studio, just opposite Parliament, it was the end of a long week of parliamentary statements, news conferences, and political interviews. There was a sense, though, that she was speaking about it for the first time. She knows that what she's saying isn't just defining her, it's defining this government and also the Labour Party. Get it right and it could help turn their fortunes round and it could ensure that she is seen as a future prime minister. Get it wrong, though, and they she are politically doomed. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Shabana Mahmood. You're shocking some people who are lifelong supporters of a British approach to refuge, Most notably Lord Dubbs 92 now came over to this country on the Kindertransport, the son of a Jewish father in Czechoslovakia who survived because of the welcome that Britain gave to him. He said, I am worried that Shabana Mahmood is using children as a weapon because you've said that you would be willing to send children and families back home. What do you say to him?
- [15:45]
Shabana Mahmood
Well, look, I adore Lord Alf Dobbs. I think he's a really tremendous human being. And I always listen carefully to what he said. But on this occasion, I do disagree with him. Firstly, I would never use children as a weapon. That is not what is happening here. I set out a clear policy that for those people who arrive with their children who are failed asylum seekers, we're not talking about people who have refugee status. We're talking about people who do not have refugee status because they've been through their multiple claims, they've been through the courts, and they have been found not to be asylum seekers, not to be refugees. They've failed in their claim. We have not been removing those people to safe countries. I gave the example of Albania in my speech because we have a number of families from that country. This is a safe country. It's a signature to the echr. We have a returns agreement with this country, and we're not returning those families because they have at least one child who's under 18. A lot of.
- [16:37]
Nick Robinson
Have you seen what the Albanian prime minister has said about this?
- [16:39]
Shabana Mahmood
Yes.
- [16:39]
Nick Robinson
Well, he's accused you of ethnic stereotyping, indecent demagoguery, and he's accused you of poorly echoing the rhetoric of the populist far right.
- [16:48]
Shabana Mahmood
I obviously disagree. And look, we are talking about people who have failed in their asylum claim. We're not talking about people who are refugees.
- [16:56]
Nick Robinson
But you're also talking about people if you change the status of a country, aren't you? Because one of the things you said is that you would review if a country was now safe. So let's take a Syrian couple who fled Assad's brutal regime, maybe came here on a lorry before many people came here on the boats. They've got a child that they had here, child starting secondary school. You could say Syria is safe now Assad has gone. Do you say that that child, that family has to go back?
- [17:23]
Shabana Mahmood
When you have failed asylum seeking families, I think most of your viewers and your listeners would acknowledge that there is a perverse incentive there to still travel with your children, maybe put your children at dange if you know that we would never ever remove a family with children when they have failed in their claim. It is British taxpayers who are footing that bill. And I am sorry to say, you know, if people, people mind that, but it is true. And I have a responsibility to run a system based on fairness and contribution and that is what I'm going to do now.
- [17:53]
Nick Robinson
What about the Syrian family?
- [17:54]
Shabana Mahmood
Yeah. So if people come to this country through illegal means, so not through a safe and legal route, but through other means, then I think it is right for us to say that journey is not going to be worth it because the rules that you going to be subject to are going to be tougher.
- [18:08]
Nick Robinson
In future or now. Well, I mean, in other words, could this be retrospective from the moment the.
- [18:12]
Shabana Mahmood
Rules come in and we will set out all of those changes in legislation.
- [18:16]
Nick Robinson
It's because you praise David Blunkett, as I hope Secretary you admire, and he said to get these measures through Parliament, it will undoubtedly be necessary to clarify precisely what the status will be of children born in the uk.
- [18:27]
Shabana Mahmood
We will, and let me just address that. We will consider the. The issues relating to children specifically and differently, not just for children of people who've come here, who've been born in this country, but also for those who arrive unaccompanied where we have another kind of problem. So I will deal with the issues of children separately and I will set out those plans in due course.
- [18:46]
Nick Robinson
So you accept it's got to be clearer.
- [18:48]
Shabana Mahmood
I recognise that there is an issue in children, but I was very open about that in the asylum policy statement itself. But it is right that if you're a failed asylum seeker, the fact that you have a child under 18 is not a reason why you should remain here in supported asylum accommodation forevermore.
- [19:04]
Nick Robinson
Let's just try and clear up a few policy questions quickly before we talk more about the philosophy of what you're trying to do as well. Can asylum seekers have their jewelry taken away from them in order to contribute to the cost? If they've got lots of jewelry, we.
- [19:18]
Shabana Mahmood
Are not going to be taking anybody's jewelry or any other assets at the border. Let me just be very clear about that. In the change that we have we are making, what we have in mind are those who do have high value assets or have access to income.
- [19:32]
Nick Robinson
So a really smart watch, a diamond necklace.
- [19:35]
Shabana Mahmood
In fact, the thing we're talking about is E bikes because lots of people currently being supported in hotels have clearly access to money that they can get E bikes and cars. So the example I used in the chamber was of a gentleman who had access to £800amonth from family members in this country and had enough money to go and get himself an Audi. And he was not required under any of our rules to contribute towards the cost of his asylum accommodation. So he's not being granted refugee status, he's just waiting for his claim to be heard. So he's in asylum accommodation because we have a duty to support these people whilst the claim's being heard and he doesn't have to contribute at all. Now most British citizens have to contribute towards a cost of, you know, often accessing the benefit system and if they have assets, that is taken into account when they seek Social Security money. So what I'm trying to do with that change is put asylum seekers on the same sort playing field that British citizens are on.
- [20:32]
Nick Robinson
To be clear, Grandma's ring is not going to be taken off.
- [20:34]
Shabana Mahmood
You not taking away sentiment the border. I'm not taking any other.
- [20:38]
Nick Robinson
You got a flashy Rolex.
- [20:39]
Shabana Mahmood
Well, E bike, car, other high value assets. Money, access to money that you haven't declared. I think it's right that we say to people, if you clearly can afford it, you should make a contribution.
- [20:52]
Nick Robinson
Now, talking of money, at the moment, there are payments when people go home to encourage them to make that journey, to help them when they arrive in their home country. They're limited at three. And you say you want them to go up in Denmark, the country that you Admire, they're over 20,000 bad. Are you willing to try that out?
- [21:10]
Shabana Mahmood
Yes. So I've already asked my officials to pilot a small program where we offer more than what we currently do for a period, just to see how that.
- [21:19]
Nick Robinson
Changes that sort of money.
- [21:21]
Shabana Mahmood
Haven't, haven't alighted upon the full sums involved yet. But I am willing to consider a big increase on what we currently pay. And that is because for each asylum seeker in the country, it's £30,000 per individual per year. Year. So it's a big sum of money. And if we can persuade people to return to their home country, you know, with. With a cash payment that is often better value for the taxpayer. I know it sticks in the craw of many people, and they don't like it, but it is value for money. It does work. And a voluntary return is often the very best way to get people to return to their home country as quickly as possible.
- [21:56]
Nick Robinson
Central philosophical thing that was the big change from the policies that Alf Dubs loved so much, was the idea that asylum is temporary. You're only a temporary guest here. As an asylum seeker, I think it's.
- [22:11]
Shabana Mahmood
Important that we recognize that refugee status, what it means today is not what it meant when people like Alf and others came to this country. Often the people who claim asylum in this country when they reach our shores are doing so, having gone through multiple safe countries in Europe before they came here. I think it's right that I say, say, if you're going to come in this way, we will still, if we find you to be a refugee, provide you with protection. You have sanctuary here, but it is not permanent. It is temporary. That is my way of signaling to people looking to get on a boat or overstay their visa. That is the very worst way to try and get to this country or to remain in this country. But what I've also been clear about is within that core protection route where we're providing temporary sanctuary, and it's reviewed every two and a half years. If those individuals are willing to work and want to make a contribution, we will create within that core protection model a work and study route for those people to begin contributing to life in this country and to help integrate themselves. And the path to settlement there will not be as good as if you came on a safe and legal route, but will be better. What I'm trying to do is signal this is the worst way to come, and this is the hardest way to have a life in this country. Safe and legal routes are the best way to come to this country, and that life and that path to settlement will be easier and quicker. So I am deliberately trying to show the difference because I want to change the calculus of the people that are making these decisions.
- [23:40]
Nick Robinson
And by trying to change the calculus, you're saying asylum is temporary, not permanent. You're saying, we may take some of your money away. We may bribe you to go back home. We may send you abroad with your children, even if they all are here. Wouldn't that be neatly summed up by the phrase hostile environment?
- [23:57]
Shabana Mahmood
I think we're trying to show that there are ways to seek refuge and sanctuary in this country that we find acceptable because we can control them and we can do them in a way that unlocks the full.
- [24:08]
Nick Robinson
It's hostile, though, isn't it?
- [24:10]
Shabana Mahmood
Look, I think we're a generous people and I am deliberately trying to send a message. Don't get on a boat. It is a dangerous thing to do. It puts your life at risk. But it also makes a lot of very bad people richer than they need to be. I still believe in sanctuary. I believe in helping people. I believe in our country playing a part to offer refuge to people. But the way to do that is not to see the British Navy effectively acting as a taxi service across the Channel, saving lives, not to make people smugglers, rich people indeed. That is absolutely the wrong way to come to this country. But I do want to create those safe and legal routes. I've already set out plans for community sponsorship, for talented students, for skilled workers. I want them to have a future in this country and I want my country to play its part. And I know our people are generous enough to want to do that. But that generosity comes at a price. If you cannot secure your own border, then you cannot get the public consent that is necessary for either having an asylum system at all or ever offering safe and legal passage into this country. I want to retain that. And that is why we need stronger measures in order to secure our border.
- [25:16]
Nick Robinson
Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get. Your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the boss of Google, Sundar Pitch, the education activist Malala Yousafzai, and the president of Botswana, Duma Boko. Until the next time. Bye for now.
- [25:48]
Ray Winstone
Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.
- [26:03]
Ray Winstone (car story)
And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
- [26:11]
Ray Winstone
Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.