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The Interview
Sir Anthony Hopkins: I turn turmoil into energy
00:22:59
Katie Razzall speaks to Sir Anthony Hopkins about his life and Hollywood career
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- [00:00]
Interviewer
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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BritBox Narrator 1
It's the cosiest time of year on Britbox.
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
Very cosy.
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BritBox Narrator 1
That means basking in the ambiance.
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
You know, the bodies turned up.
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Interviewer
How often do people get murdered around here?
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BritBox Narrator 1
Unboxing the unexpected.
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
Well, we know it wasn't an accident.
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BritBox Narrator 1
And starting new traditions.
- [00:19]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
I see you telling me to behave myself. Oh, shut up.
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BritBox Narrator 1
Stream Britbox original series based on best selling novels including Lynley and a new season of Karen Piri.
- [00:27]
Tristan Redman
Smashy smashy breaky breaky.
- [00:29]
BritBox Narrator 1
It's all a bit warmer with Britbox. See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox.
- [00:36]
Asma Khalid
America is changing and so is the world.
- [00:40]
Tristan Redman
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [00:48]
Asma Khalid
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.
- [00:51]
Tristan Redman
Tristan Redman in London and this is is the global story.
- [00:55]
Asma Khalid
Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [01:00]
Tristan Redman
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Katie Razzle
Hello, I'm Katie Razzle, the BBC's culture and media editor and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
I'm disappointed in Deal done four times and then you go home and you see just attack a nursing home in Kiev. I said, what the hell was that all about? I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me. But I was still 15 years old and I did not know who I was. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. Today we are spending trillions on war.
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Interviewer
And peanuts on peace.
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Katie Razzle
For this interview, I met two time Oscar winning actor Sir Anthony Hopkins at a hotel in Beverly Hills, Los Angeles. Best known for playing the serial killer Dr. Hannibal Lecter in the 1991 thriller The Silence of the Lambs, Sir Anthony's journey to Hollywood stardom started with rather humble beginnings. He was born into a working class family in the Welsh steel town of port Talbot in 1937, where his parents first ran a bakery and then later a pub. Their strong work ethic was imparted on their son who despite struggling socially and educationally in his early years, was determined to make a success of himself, throwing himself into reading and creative pastimes like music and art. Sir Anthony got a scholarship to the Welsh Royal College of Music and Drama in his Teens before later moving to London to study at the Royal academy for dramatic art. After completing national service, his early career saw him working alongside greats including Katharine Hepburn, Laurence Olivier, Richard Burton and Peter o' toole across both stage and screen. With his international breakout coming in the 1980 film the Elephant man, which received multiple Oscar and golden globe nominations, it would be another decade before he truly cemented his place as a Hollywood a lister, playing the infamous serial killer Dr. Hannibal Lecter, regarded by many as one of the greatest film villains of all time. But his journey to the very top was not only a professional struggle, but at times a personal struggle, too.
- [03:22]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Well, my anger, uncontrolled rebelliousness, my relations with the people, I had no friends. They'd leave because I was pretty volatile, and I know the effects of alcohol. I'm not a preacher or anything like that. I'm just a good old sinner like everyone else. Tragically, it will kill you and it will drive you completely crazy before you die. I mean, I have crazy behavior, mad behavior, and you can't live like that. I was out of control. And I realized I. I couldn't beat this rap. I thought, well, I've had it. And it was a real kick in the head. And I made a phone call. And suddenly, bright morning of 29th of December, 1975, something said, it's all over now. You can start living. It's all been for a purpose, so don't forget one moment of it. And I take it from that, whatever that was subconscious, whatever it is, or destiny, whatever God, whatever you want to call it, some higher power within me or the best part of ourselves, the craving left. I just never come back. And then. So I gradually, over the years, learned to understand what the nature of it is. And I wouldn't have missed it, but I don't want to ever go back there.
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Katie Razzle
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Sir Anthony Hopkins.
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
Looking back to 1942, I was four. I was a confused little boy, like all kids are. We come into this big crazy world, we don't know the answer. We know nothing. So we feel all kinds of pressures and loneliness and fears. But I look back now at that little confused by it. And I said, we did okay, kid. We were okay. Because during my school years as a boy, I was not bright.
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Interviewer
See, I think the bizarre thing reading this book is you clearly were bright. You read the encyclopedia, you knew about all sorts of things to do with astronomy. You read Charles Dickens, you played the piano, you were an artist, and yet you were Constantly being told, you're not bright, but you are clearly bright.
- [05:26]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Part of my brain is I'm not very practical. I don't hide behind being an eccentric or anything like that. But, yes, I was gifted with something. My father and mother, they. They worked very hard. I remember when my father dawned in these children's encyclopedias, and I was so captivated that I read every one of them. Not quickly, but I read through them over the years and I gathered the children's knowledge of things which were kind of useless knowledge in a way, but interesting for me. Knew about the height of the Empire State Building, the height of Everest and all that stuff, but I still couldn't quite get it, you know. And then the turning point was in 1955 or 17, my school reporters arrived and, you know, message of doom. My father opened the envelope and you've read this letter note from the headmaster. Anthony seems to be way below the educational standard of the school. And my father, all good intentions, said, I don't know what's going to happen to you. What's going to happen to you? I mean, you know, he's trying to help you. Can't you concentrate on them? And I remember stepping back about a step and I said, one day I'll show you, both of you. And I must have said it with determination. I remember I said, one day I'll show you. And he looked at me and said, well, I hope you do. And my mother said, I'm sure you will.
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Katie Razzle
And you did.
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
He put the report into the fireplace. And within a few months, I got a scholarship as an actor. I'd never acted before in my life to the Cardiff College of Music and Drama. I mean, I've been so fortunate, I couldn't take credit for any of it. I couldn't have planned any of this. And now at 87, about to turn 88, I get up in the morning and think, hello, I'm still here. And I still don't get it, but because I've worked with some extraordinary people, I suppose luck is the only answer. Hanford.
- [07:15]
Interviewer
And you do write really movingly about your childhood and the fact that, you know, you're bullied by other kids. They say you've got an elephant head. You know, you're written off by teachers. Your father tells you you'll never get anywhere, you'll never amount to anything in life. And then, of course, as you say, you said, one day I'll show you. And you have.
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Katie Razzle
What was it you think that you.
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Interviewer
Had in you to succeed?
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Katie Razzle
And do you Think if you hadn't.
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Interviewer
Been belittled, if people hadn't been saying, you're going to never amount to anything, do you think you would have succeeded? Or do you think it was actually the sort of constantly being told you wouldn't, that really galvanized you?
- [07:48]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
It did, yes. I think it gave me a core of anger, resentment and revenge. I think one day I'll show you all. But I think you come to a point, you think, don't be a victim. I decided I wasn't going to play a role of being stupid. So what I did to compensate my academic shortcomings, I would learn massive pieces of poetry and, you know, Shakespeare. And my father say to me, he said, took that piece from Hamlet. I say, okay. And I'd give him a couple of pieces of I was a rogue and peasant slave, my ought to be on me. And he'd look at me, he said, how did you do that? He said, in school you were hopeless. How have you done that? I said, no, unfortunately, he lived long enough to see me ascend the steps of this profession, and he's very proud. And he met some of the people I'd worked with, like Peter o' Toole and Lawrence Olivier and people like that, and he was astounded. I'm glad he was around to see me and my mother, and they were stalwart supporters, but it all turned inside out because of the so called turbulence and turmoil or shortcomings in my life. I turned them into power, I guess, or energy.
- [08:59]
Interviewer
You do also talk in the book very movingly about your personal battles with drink in the early days. You gave up alcohol 50 years ago. That's a very long time. At one point, Katharine Hepburn says, you know, what's wrong with all you Brits? There's just so much alcohol around. Do you understand? Do you know why? Why was there. Why was everybody drunk all the time?
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
She said, you actors, you just drink all the time. What's the matter with you? You're all going to die young. You die young. And she was. She said, stop it. You got to stop it and grow up. And she was right. But in those days, being an actor, you know, you're a rebel and everyone wants to be Marlon Brando or James Dean. And so drinking was a tribute. You know, we're free, we don't need all this. And you get a lot of fun to a point. I was lucky to hear a little voicing one day. It's going to kill you. Because I was beginning to lose control of my life, really. I mean, I would pick fights with people and I'd attack directors if they dare to look at me the wrong way. And they had a right because they were directors. But I have a go, and that's not good.
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Interviewer
And your honesty, when it comes to talking about your alcoholism, you paint this picture. You say in your words, you say, I could turn very nasty. And that's the ugly side of alcoholism. It brought out a brutal side of me. I'm not proud of it at all. What did you do at your worst when you say that, what are you referring to?
- [10:24]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Well, my anger, uncontrolled rebelliousness, my relations with the people. I had no friends. They'd leave because I was pretty volatile. And I know the effects of alcohol. I'm not a preacher, anything like that. I'm just a good old sinner like everyone else. Tragically, it will kill you and it will drive you completely crazy before you die. I mean, I have crazy behavior, mad behavior, and you can't live like that. And I became aware of it. I was in hospital in New York. I had a problem with my liver many years ago. And the doctor said, yeah, he said, I see you in the bar every night after the show. And he said, I sometimes gone there. He said, you know something? You're going to die soon. I said, yeah. Why do you drink so much? Why do you smoke so much? I said, well, yeah, it's fun, isn't it? Okay, you won't be here long. And that was the first inkling I had. I thought, oh, God. I didn't stop. But a year later, I was in Los Angeles, and I was really tearing it up there. Impossible to work with. I was out of control. And I realized I couldn't beat this rap. I thought, well, I've had it. And it was a real kick in the head. And I made a phone call. And suddenly, bright morning of 29th of December, 1975, something said, it's all over now. You can start living. It's all been for a purpose. So don't forget one moment of it. And I take it from that. Whatever that was subconscious or whatever it is, or destiny, whatever God, whatever you want to call it, some higher power within me or the best part of ourselves, the craving left. I just never come back. And then. So I gradually, over the years, learned to understand what the nature of it is. And without lecturing or being an evangelist, I'm aware of it. I wouldn't have missed it. But I don't want to ever go back there because I know what it is I've seen that. I've witnessed it in people and it's a devastating killer.
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Katie Razzle
You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service people shaping our world from all over the world.
- [12:36]
Asma Khalid
America is changing and so is the world.
- [12:41]
Tristan Redman
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [12:49]
Asma Khalid
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.
- [12:51]
Tristan Redman
Tristan Redman in London and this is the global story.
- [12:55]
Asma Khalid
Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [13:01]
Tristan Redman
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [13:09]
Katie Razzle
For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to the 87 year old multi award winning actor Sir Anthony Hopkins. We met at an upmarket hotel in Beverly Hills. And even in Los Angeles where famous faces are two a penny, he gets noticed. As we wandered through the lobby together to a chorus of hellos and some excited waves that were warmly returned. He confided that people think actors are special. We're not. He told me he began the interview a little reserved, but quickly warmed up. And it culminated in a private piano recital for me and the team. Sir Anthony playing us one of his own compositions on the hotel's grand piano. That was special. Ok, let's return to my interview with Sir Anthony Hopkins.
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Interviewer
I'd like to talk about one of the roles that defines you in a sense still all these years on. You called it at the time a life changer. That is of course, Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs. You won your first Oscar for it. And I mean, I watched it again recently ahead of this interview. I haven't watched it since it came out. It is as terrifying now as it was then.
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
Yeah.
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Interviewer
And that's down to you. Why? How did you manage that? I think you said you instinctively knew how to play Hannibal. I have the devil in me. We all have the devil in us. I know what scares people. How do you know that?
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
My agent said it over to the theatre where I was working. This is not a very big part, but read it. So I started reading. So I phoned Major. I said, is this a real offer? He said, I'm not sure. I said, I don't want to read anymore because unless it's an offer. He said, why? It's a small part. I said, it's the best part I've ever read. And what it was, there's a scene where Jodie Foster's Clarice says Do you know Hannibal Ector? She. You mean Hannibal the Cannibal? And immediately you get that. And then she goes to the asylum, down into the passageway, down into the cells, because he dropped certain clues. What's he like? And then I thought that he played the reverse of it. Instead of gibbering in the corner, he's standing in the middle of the cell. And Jonathan Demihau said, where would you want to be discovered from her point of view? I said, standing. Okay. Why? I said, I can smell her. Sean said, you're weird. So he did it. And that's what it is. You go the opposite way. You draw back. Like Iago, another evil villain. You draw back. You go back into the shade. Go back and don't force any performance, but just keep it very calm. The more still you are. And deadly. And don't take your eyes off the person. That's terrifying. It is. You're not real FBI, are you? All the way to the FBI. That's scary.
- [16:06]
Interviewer
It is. And that line that everybody remembers, I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. And then you do that thing which is so terrifying. Where did that come from?
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
That happened at that moment.
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Interviewer
Really?
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
Yeah, I just added it for a joke. When I was a kid, I saw Dracula, Jonathan Hark, and Belo Lugosi. And he's shaving, and he nicks himself and belly the ghost. And that scared people. I mean, to play Iago. I mean, Iago, the most evil villain written by Shakespeare. I make a net that shall ensnare them all. And you realize that there's a diabolical monster inside. And we all have that.
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Interviewer
Do we all have the monster?
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
Well, we do, because we have to survive. Unless we control it, unless we find ways of, you know, finding ways around it. Every day we can come up with, you know, punishing ideas and quarrelsomeness, as I did. But you have to stop. You have to say, okay, this is enough. I can't do this. People don't deserve this from me. Or. And let. Try to be understanding. Sometimes you have to be tough, but. But control it. Try and make people relaxed, feel safe. I just don't find the whole process of a living is like that.
- [17:26]
Interviewer
And that role in Silence of the Lambs, obviously, it won you an Oscar. It brought great fame. What's your attitude to fame? How have you dealt with that side of your industry? To fame and celebrity and the way. I mean, that's shifted a lot over time, but it's.
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Sir Anthony Hopkins
Well, when you're younger, when it happens. I think you have to make a quick decision at some level in your thinking to respond as a human being, to enjoy it, to feel privileged, to feel lucky, but then to not take any of it seriously. So I've reached this stage of my life now, especially last 15 years, I think to not take it seriously that we're all going to die in the end and just enjoy the fundamental day to day things of life. No, not to take it seriously. I mean, people go, you know, ask me for selfies and all that. Yeah, as long as people enjoy it, I've no problem with it. But I know I'm as vulnerable and as, you know, fragile as everyone else. That's not special.
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Interviewer
And I mean, your industry has changed so much over the time. You've been working and cinema and now, you know, AI, you know, actually you played a character, didn't you, in Westworld, the architect of a world where artificial beings begin to outgrow their makers. I mean, now we're in a situation where actors are being scanned for parts of their contract as part of their contract. It's evolving so fast.
- [18:52]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Is that happening?
- [18:53]
Interviewer
Yes, I mean, that's, that's starting. You know, it will be possible in not very long that Anthony Hopkins, a scan of you that looks real. Could carry on acting new roles after you've gone.
- [19:06]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
I'm glad I won't be here.
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Interviewer
Would you say yes to that or would you say no?
- [19:08]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
I'd be gone, far gone by then. I mean, it's ridiculous, but I have no idea. One thing I'm blessed with, and part of my ignorance is this whole newfangled stuff. I don't know anything about it. I really don't take any notice of it because why worry yourself about it? You know, things are changing all the time and the movie industry has gone through a great change, but something will replace it, I guess. But you know, the pandemic and everything else, it's very difficult for people to raise money. So now he put it on Netflix. So to me, it's such a complex world, I can't even begin to comply it. I'm not even that interested in understanding that because I don't get it at all. I don't know how producers can get together and pull the money together to make a movie. It's very difficult for people now and I'm just fortunate.
- [20:01]
Interviewer
Writing the book, you've obviously had to look back at your life, assessing your life, your career. What lessons do you take from it? What have you learned about yourself, about the world?
- [20:12]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Enjoy it now, before it's too late. Just enjoy it as much as you can, you know, don't be a victim. Stop whining. I think that comes from my father. Stand up straight. Stop complaining. You don't know anything. That's what I try to do, but I can't lecture anyone on anything. But I would say in secret, just stop whining about it all. Just get on with it. Life is tough.
- [20:34]
Interviewer
When we spoke before we met in 2023, when we were talking about your portrayal of Nicholas Winton, who saved so many children from the Nazis, and you told me, like Nicholas Winton says, the only way is compromise. Give thought and heed to the other person's point of view instead of the culture we now live in. No, you're wrong. I'm right. It's appalling. I mean, do you feel that that is where we're going? That we are increasingly, two years on from our conversation, more polarized than we are?
- [20:59]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Yes, we are. We are. So much hatred and. Well, I mean, it's. We're living in a. The world has always been a place of utter turmoil. I watched a film the other night. I didn't mention it. It's a German film, the Unfinished Film, I think it's called. It's a documentary of German cameramen in the Warsaw Ghetto and in Treblinka concentration camp. Within a few weeks of people in the Warsaw ghetto. People dying on the street, people walking past. And you look at it, you're thinking, what on earth is the matter with us? Can't we live together? Why do you persecute another race or another nation? Why, when we have so much chance? And I'm not taking nationalism, because we're all responsible for that. But I think if we go on in this way of hatred, nobody's allowed to say anything. Nobody's allowed to have an opinion. We are dead. That's fascism. And you want to say, come on, stop beating each other up of ideas. They're only ideas. And we're all going to be dead one day. You know, the greatest dictator, the man in 1933 talked about the Thousand Year Reich, ended up blowing his brains out in the bunker and the ruins of Berlin, his own country, for what? For an idea? You're wrong and I'm right. We are the master race. And it can be, can be applied to all of us. And power does corrupt, absolutely corrupt.
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Interviewer
And just as we come to the end, are you happy now? Because for so many years you weren't happy. And it feels really, you know, You've had, obviously, this terrible thing happen. Your house has burnt down here in la, lots of awful things, and yet you seem at ease, you seem happy.
- [22:44]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Yeah, I am, because, I mean, most of my friends have dead. They've gone, God bless them, but they've gone. I think, holy Moses. My next. So I hope to be around a little longer. But even that, I thinking, oh, well, I had a good time, I had a laugh. Well, at last, for all the sins, for all the ups and downs, life is in session. And if it were just peaceful, well, fine. I know people are very happy, just like my father was. He said of his father, he said he was very happy just being what he was, you know, just the dailiness of life. And that moves me. My father dreamed of owning a pub at one point. He was a baker and he was. Eventually he bought E Card Pub, which he owned, you know, And I remember sitting there on a Sunday morning many years ago. He's looking out the window on the wet Sunday afternoon, the car's going by. He said, well, I got the pub I wanted and this is it. I said, yeah. He said, life. What on earth is it all about? And he said, recite that bit of Shakespeare for me. And I. And I remember the emptiness in his life, but that's life.
- [24:12]
Katie Razzle
Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with novelist Salman Rushdie, global megastar Lady Gaga and tennis icon Martina Navras.
- [24:30]
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Over.
- [24:31]
Katie Razzle
Until the next time. Bye for now.
- [24:44]
Asma Khalid
America is changing and so is the world.
- [24:48]
Tristan Redman
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [24:56]
Asma Khalid
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, dc.
- [24:58]
Tristan Redman
I'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.
- [25:03]
Asma Khalid
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [25:08]
Tristan Redman
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.