B (3:12)

You know, when you're in a place where you know something's wrong, you got to speak on it.

A (3:23)

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Stevie Wonder. You've brought something with you to the interview today. Can you tell me what this is, please?

B (3:32)

This is a harpeggi. And I've been playing it for about eight years. I played it. It's a string instrument, but it's sort of laid out where, like a guitar would go this way.

A (3:46)

Like that, right? Yeah.

B (3:47)

It's this unwilling lad and you play it. It's what we call where you have, like your. This is how it sounds up.

A (4:00)

So you're just pressing it and the note is coming from the press, as opposed to a pluck. Right. Beautiful.

B (4:17)

Annie. Annie. Annie. Don't let me go.

A (4:22)

Oh, my gosh, Stevie, I can't tell you how nervous I've been about this interview. You are soothing me right now.

B (4:31)

Well, relax yourself. I know.

A (4:33)

I need to relax.

B (4:34)

Chill, chill.

A (4:35)

I know. We need to have a conversation.

B (4:37)

Yeah, conversation. Peace.

A (4:39)

Well, let me ask you about playing these songs on this tour. I'm just interested in how it feels to be playing songs that are maybe kind of 50 odd years old now and how your relationship with those songs changes over time in terms of performing them.

B (4:54)

Songs are like children, you know, they're with you forever. Songs are like, you know, a statement from the spirit of you. The spirit in you. And so my thing with singing those songs as songs, like me taking breath of a new day.

A (5:17)

When you write a song, what comes first? Is it the words? The melody?

B (5:22)

Usually for me, I write the melody first. My mind I hear.

A (5:27)

So the melody's in your mind, and.

B (5:29)

Then, you know, I mean, along with the melody, you know, you. Along with that, you do hear the chords in your mind. But so in the case of Love's in Need, I had the chorus, you know, kind of together on a new day, doing it, so. And then I had, you know. And that's another, you know, song started.

A (6:16)

Is it true that your mom co wrote some songs with you when you were younger?

B (6:21)

Yeah, she did write some stuff with me, yeah.

A (6:23)

What was it that your mother taught you?

B (6:26)

My mother sang a little bit. I think it was just kind of a Lot of fun. Sometimes we work on something and she. I'd be down in the basement, and she'd come down and say, try this. Do that. Come on, Steve. Do that. Come on, Steve. You know. Goodness.

A (6:43)

D. So you'd be down the basement. Is that your place to play?

B (6:47)

It was, yeah.

A (6:48)

Right.

B (6:49)

Yeah. So.

A (6:51)

So she made you a place. She gave you a place. She was like, go down there.

B (6:54)

Well, I wasn't there. And she didn't say, go down there. I just. That's what I did. You took it down there? Yeah.

A (6:59)

Commandeered it for yourself? Yeah. Yeah. What kind of a kid were you?

B (7:04)

Such a very quiet cat, you know, I didn't do anything. I'm so quiet. Really believe that lie?

A (7:10)

I don't believe that.

B (7:11)

Yeah, no. I mean, I was, you know, I was definitely curious, you know, as they talk about the things that I did, they said I was blind. But what did that mean to me? I'd never seen. So, you know, whether it be kids out climbing trees, you know, getting apples off the tree, whatever, going up, just jumping up the tree, all that was like, okay, so I want to do that. Come on, you're gonna fall. I'm not gonna fall. Get out there. Steve.

A (7:43)

Steve.

B (7:47)

And so, I mean, I would do all the things that, you know, all the kids did, you know, growing up, there's a thing where you're in your home, in your house, backyard, you have like a woodshed kind of thing, like a barn kind of thing. And there was this thing where kids, the boys would go and jump down.

A (8:07)

You know, off the roof, Jet onto the ground.

B (8:09)

Yes, right. And whoever could jump the furthest was like, you, you, you, you. Okay, so you know me particularly a lot of girls, oh, Stevie, he's gonna do it. And go, Steve. Woo. Go, Steve. And I would go and I would jump.

A (8:25)

So talk me through. What age would you have been at this point?

B (8:29)

Maybe like nine.

A (8:30)

Okay, okay.

B (8:31)

Nine, eight. Whatever. One particular day I did this, and, you know, my mother said to me, you shouldn't do it. Yeah. I'm like, you. And so I was doing it, and, you know, the girls were like, you know, that boy can't do that. He blind. He can't. Yeah, I can do it, since y' all want to see me do it. Here we go. Get on your mark. Get ready. Ready? Jump.

A (9:01)

Oh, God.

B (9:02)

But there's one particular time I jumped and there was no. It was like. Because my mother was standing there and jumped into her arms.

A (9:13)

She caught you.

B (9:14)

Wow. Be that.

A (9:18)

You got in a lot of trouble.

B (9:19)

After that, I bet you can't say helen, baby saying, right?

A (9:21)

You can say whatever you want here. We can. You know how swearing, it's fine.

B (9:25)

I remember falling asleep going, you know, like, yeah, you're crying in your sleep.

A (9:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you think that you ended up teaching your mom stuff inadvertently? I mean, like, did you surprise her?

B (9:40)

I think all I could do was to share with her my discoveries. I. I prefer just to say it was. I share in what I discovered. And my mother.

A (9:50)

It's important to have a mother like that. It's very important. They're the only people who can ground you like that constantly, right? They can just put you in your place. Was there a moment in your childhood when you realized that you had a gift that was unique to, say, your brothers and sisters? I'm not saying better, but just unique to you.

B (10:07)

And I never thought of it being unique or better or whatever. I just thought it was a blessing that I was given, right? And I thank God for that blessing. Obviously I knew I could sing. I love singing. And so my goal was always to do better and better at it. But it wasn't so much that I thought, hey, you know, what's up? I can sing. What about you? Once when I first came to Motown, I met Smokey Robinson and I remember, I said, you know, I know your music a little bit. Smokey, you can sing bad, you can sing good, but I can sing better. What?

A (10:50)

Little 11 year old Stevie, how did Smokey take that?

B (10:53)

He probably laughed like, ah.

A (10:55)

So that was then. And fast forward six, six, seven decades. There you go. That is the passing of time.

B (11:06)

You are starting in decades. I said, okay, yeah, yeah.

A (11:09)

You are one of the most beloved artists in the world. I'm interested in how you define yourself as a musician. When you're making music in the moment, in real time, what is the feeling that you get? Is there a unique feeling to that?

B (11:23)

I mean, there's always a feeling of creativity when you're creating, you're in that mode and so it feels good to me. I'm more so in the groove of what that is. And if from that then comes a melody or an idea for a song or whatever, we do that and so it happens. Same thing. If I'm playing piano, like for instance, when I wrote Boogie on Reggae Woman, I started on, you ain't saying.

A (11:49)

It's one of my favorites.

B (11:50)

Come on now.

A (11:50)

I swear it's one of the favorites.

B (11:51)

I believe you.

A (11:52)

I swear I don't listen, leave it. I promise you, it better be it is.

B (11:58)

No, no. But when I was working on that, I started with Moog synthesizer. I think I had Bob and Malcolm. That's Bob Margoleff and Malcolm Cecil come up with a bass sound that I wanted to from. Then I had the, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah.

A (12:57)

Wow.

B (12:57)

I sort of had the thing. I remember that the groove was the kind of group sort of blues groove. And I think I drank a beer, right. Because I want to have like a slurring kind of sound of a voice.

A (13:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (13:09)

It's not like this disappear. But I like, I like this thing.

A (13:16)

It's super laid back.

B (13:18)

Yeah, I was very laid back.

A (13:20)

Yeah.

B (13:21)

Laid out. No, laid out.

A (13:28)

For this episode of the interview, I'm speaking to global music icon Stevie Wonder. This interview happened quite last minute in the middle of the summer on a very, very hot Friday in July. It was the night before a big show that Stevie was doing at Hyde park. The last show of a five date summer tour that he'd done around the uk. He was in absolutely fantastic form. He was so personable, so genial. But most striking about him was his sense of humor. He couldn't stop finding the humor in every little thing that I spoke to him about. And at the end, I had to capitulate from trying to be a serious interviewer and just go with his flow, which was very much of wanting to have an interactive conversation. All right, let's return to my conversation with Stevie Wonder. Okay, here's a big question. Why Stevie Wonder, were we created with the ability to sing?

B (14:22)

I think that there was a calling for that to be given to us.

A (14:26)

Right.

B (14:27)

And it was all about how much we're gonna use it for. For the goodness of what we've been given. It's a gift.

A (14:33)

Yeah.

B (14:34)

It's an honor. I say thank you, God, every day for just me being able to sing, to come up with a lyric, you know, come up with a melody, chords, all of it. And, you know, I'm one who. I believe in the greatness, the goodness of the Creator. And I've never been with the dilemma of seeing God as a man or a woman or blah, blah, blah. I don't even relate to that. I think God is a spirit. And so I never get hung up in all the stuff that people do.

A (15:15)

That concept, I suppose, of music coming through you from a divine sense. You, in an interview with Oprah 20 years ago, I don't know if you remember, but I read it today and you talked about music having always been a lesson to you that it Comes from God through you. And I wondered, that sense of making music and then coming back and hearing it and it teaching you, even though you made it, it does. Are you still having that? Does that still happen?

B (15:41)

Of course, yeah.

A (15:42)

Yeah. So you're learning lessons through your music.

B (15:45)

I mean, if you believe, you know, that the spirit gives it to you, then obviously there's more for you to get right if you find yourself worthy by how and what you do.

A (15:58)

Yeah.

B (15:59)

You know, I always tell people I'm three times 25, okay. So I'm still young, love that I'm still a baby to this thing called life. And I always feel like there's so much more that I want to do, and I know that God wants me to do. So in this time and space that we do have, I want to do everything I can.

A (16:22)

There's a messenger element to what you do. I mean, I think there's a lot of artists who won't feel like that. They'll just want to entertain. But there's something deeper there with you where you. You want to send messages, you want to speak to people through your music. I wanted to ask you, actually, about music because music gives me hope, and I do feel like music can help enact change, social change, political change. What do you think?

B (16:49)

You know, there have been so many songs that, you know, as I talked about loves and needed love today, I think about, you know, Marvin's what's Going On. Think about John Lennon's Imagine.

A (17:02)

Yeah.

B (17:04)

And I think about songs that people have sang, all of us have sang, and we had something we wanted to say and make it make a difference. When I received the Oscar for I just got to say I love you. There's an interesting thing. The morning before I went to the Oscars, because I wasn't this for sure. I was going to go, but I was watching the news and there came a thing on, talking about how long Nelson Mandela had been in prison.

A (17:39)

Yeah.

B (17:40)

And I said, damn, you know, like, what, 25 years or whatever? It was horrible. So I go there, I'm there, and I sit in the back in the audience, you know, because it's a lot of stuff. And I get the first thing I hear, you know, Prince had won for, you know, the score of Purple Rain. I said, whoa. And then so they played all the various songs, and all of those songs I liked, you know, I felt good about them. And then Diana Ross sang I just got to say I love you. And I said, wow, that's deep. And they said, and the winner is. And they said Stevie Wonder. I couldn't believe it. It was like. And I was excited, but I was, like, walking up, like, whatever. And then, you know, I was thinking about the people I wanted to thank. And then I get there and I say, you know, something like, I accept this award in honor of Nelson Mandela.

A (18:56)

Yeah.

B (18:58)

And started turning off, and people, what the hell?

A (19:01)

I mean, it shouldn't be controversial, really, should it? But it was.

B (19:05)

We were. I think. But it was from my heart. It's like that made me think about something going in prison as long as he had been. And me getting this Oscar is like. I took it to that place where. Wow. And they banned my music and they cut me out. So your music, my driver's license?

A (19:31)

What, they did that? No, I know that your music was banned in South Africa for real, wasn't it?

B (19:37)

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

A (19:38)

What did. And did stuff happen in America? Was there repercussions?

B (19:41)

No, no, no.

A (19:42)

So that was all in South Africa.

B (19:43)

I'm just, you know, messing with you.

A (19:44)

Right. Okay.

B (19:46)

I see where you at. No, they, you know, they banned the music in South Africa.

A (19:51)

Yeah.

B (19:51)

And I said, man, I don't care. Whatever. Do what you do. And so they banned it. But I said, you know, and I. I know that I was doing a song called Apartheid's Wrong. And I had some other things. A song called Dark and Lovely, and. Yeah, the stuff we did. And I just continued on with what I felt. I felt apartheid was wrong and the things that I felt. And it was wrong. And so I joined with all the people in the States and throughout the world that, you know, this is. And then just stop. So I say all that to say, you know, when you're in a place where you know something's wrong, you gotta speak on it.

A (20:38)

You've gotta speak on it. I agree.

B (20:39)

I have a song you will hear on my next project called Theo. Can't put dreams to sleep. You can't let fear put your dreams asleep. You can't.

A (20:52)

You have lived through so much change, and you've been kind of in the shoes. In the spotlight through so much change. Right. Like, you lived through apartheid being like Nelson Mandela being a terrorist and now being, you know, not being a terrorist, being in jail now, not being in jail. Do you think enough change has happened?

B (21:09)

Definitely not.

A (21:10)

Yeah.

B (21:11)

I think, in fact, we're trying to. There's some people trying to go backwards, go back.

A (21:15)

It feels like that, doesn't it, sometimes?

B (21:17)

To the good old days.

A (21:18)

Yeah.

B (21:20)

You know, and that's not. It's not going to go down like that. And I think that for those who think it's going to go down like that, remember, God is watching you and that you two will have a number.

A (21:32)

How do you hold on to hope?

B (21:34)

My faith in God and in people. If you look back in history, there's always been a point when people wake up. The dangerous thing about now is that you have things that can destroy the world just like that.

A (21:51)

Right.

B (21:52)

In minutes, it can all be gone.

A (21:54)

Yeah.

B (21:54)

So I think that people have to really, you know, this person is talking, saying all this, you know, doing things that. You know, those people, not just person that are doing things and saying things that are just damn stupid, ridiculous. You want them to run your rule, your life. You want them to be the ones that could possibly do that. With ego, with ignorance. You want that, then you vote them in and you get what you felt for. If you don't want that, make the difference. Make the change. Move the world forward as it is meant to be. Betty Wright, cleanup woman do you think.

A (22:43)

You could have been anything else except for a musician?

B (22:48)

Except Stevie Wonder.

A (22:50)

Except Stevie Wonder.

B (22:52)

I mean, I think that if I was meant to be someone else to do something else, it would have happened. This is what I know. This is what God has left me to do and be. So I'm satisfied with that. So now, you know, my children all are talented. My son, who's born the same day as me, 13th of May, you know, he's got a great voice, and so I'm always working with him with his voice. And my daughter sing. I work with them. All of them, you know, all of them have, you know, the thing of music, I guess they. They would have been influenced by something like their dad. I wonder what your dad. I wonder who your dad likes music.

A (23:44)

Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. And you can hear more conversations with pop culture and music icons on Sidetracked with myself, Annie McManus and Nick Grimshaw. Until the next time. Bye for now.

B (24:09)

America is changing, and so is the world.

A (24:13)

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the global story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.