Wahiga Mwaura (2:42)

Sudan is burning. Three years of a shattering war has left one of Africa's ancient nations on the brink of collapse. Tens of thousands are killed and millions are forced out of their homes. Sudan civil war erupted in 2023 between the army and a paramilitary group, the Rapid Support Forces. With its roots in the notorious Janjaweed militia, the conflict has seen human Suffering on a huge scale, with 65% of the population in need of food, water, shelter and medicine. More than 150,000 people have died in the conflict across the country and about 12 million people have fled their homes, leading to what is considered the world's worst humanitarian crisis. Seung Ali describes what she saw on the ground and how it felt to return to the war torn country she had spent time in as a child.

Seung Ah Lee (3:41)

So it is a really severe crisis that I'm seeing here in Sudan, in Khartoum. It was actually a very emotional roller coaster for me. So I had the opportunity to visit the hometown that I grew up and first I was really excited, the fact that after almost 40 years that I could visit that place. But then I saw the damage, the loss, the buildings being destroyed, the infrastructure being completely damaged in that area and it was heartbreaking.

Wahiga Mwaura (4:22)

You'll also hear soon Ah Lee explain how current conflicts are changing migration patterns and the impact the International Organization for Migration believes cuts to government aid, aid budgets are having on people affected by war.

Seung Ah Lee (4:38)

So when humanitarian development aid funding is reduced, people are left with fewer options. And when I look at what is happening to the returnees, when I look at what is happening to the displaced population, if they don't find stability, if they don't find livelihood, if they don't find a way to survive in where they are, the movements are going to be more dangerous and the movements are going to continue. Sometimes we need to understand the a cut now might lead to more costly intervention in the future.

Wahiga Mwaura (5:22)

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Sung Ah Lee from the International Organization for Migration. In a conversation I recorded last week,

Interviewer (5:35)

I know you've been in various parts of Sudan over the last couple of days. What have been your observations and your biggest concerns whilst on ground?

Seung Ah Lee (5:45)

So I'm seeing one of the worst humanitarian crises and the biggest displacement. I've been to Port Sudan, I've been to Khartoum, I've been to Al Jazeera and now I'm in Kesala. And there is about 34 million people who's needing humanitarian aid. If you actually think about it, that's half of the UK population. So it's massive. If we think about displacement, at peak it was 12 million, now it's about 9 million based on our data. Again, if we think about a comparison, that's a whole population of London being displaced. So it is a really severe crisis that I'm seeing here in Sudan, in Khartoum. It was actually a very emotional roller coaster for Me. So I had the opportunity to visit the hometime, that hometown that I grew up. So I spent part of my childhood in Khartoum and I had the opportunity to visit back the area that I lived in and even the apartment building that I grew up. And first I was really excited the fact that after almost 40 years, I think it's 37 years that I could visit that place. But then I saw the damage, the loss, the buildings being destroyed, the infrastructure being completely damaged in that area and it was quite saddened and heartbreaking. So that's what I saw in Khartoum. I also went to visit a mobile clinic. The health system is close to being collapsed and I think there's about 21 million not having access to basic health services. In Ghedarf and Kazala. These are the states that has been hosting displaced population. So already with the climate impact, the impact of the war, the infrastructure is really stretched and because they're also hosting big number of displaced population, there's really a need for basic health system education, water and sanitation. I've seen people not having access to clean water also there's a need for shelter, food. So it's really a very severe situation.

Interviewer (8:39)

You met government officials, obviously these are government officials allied to the military in Hartoum who are working on different sectors, water, healthcare, education. What resources do they have at hand to begin to rebuild and what pressing challenges do they have at this time in those three sectors, water, healthcare and education.

Seung Ah Lee (9:03)

So as I mentioned, the healthcare system is facing severe challenges. We are working together with the government but there is still, still a lot of support needed like the mobile clinics that I mentioned that IOM and other UN agencies are operating because there's still 21 million people who don't have access to basic health services. Water I have seen in Al Jazeera and also in JDRF there is a lack of clean water and also these are agricultural sectors where the irrigation systems are damaged. So there is a need for water infrastructure as well. Education system has been struggling and we have seen in places like Kisala because there was a lot of displaced population also being placed in schools. The school system has been damaged and also having difficulties as well. So. So we are working together with the government. Government especially in the state level are very much focusing on recovery and providing these services. But it is obvious that they need a lot of support from the international community as well.

Interviewer (10:27)

Did you meet any of the leaders of the warring factions whilst on your tour?

Seung Ah Lee (10:34)

So IOM is really focusing on providing immediate humanitarian aid and Also making sure that we work together to lay down the foundational work for all the returnees coming back to their original home state. We have so far seen 4 million people returning, and we anticipate just in Khartoum there will be additional 2 million returning to Khartoum. But it would be very difficult for the returnees when they come back to rebuild their home because the reality they're coming back is quite stark. So I think it is important we make sure that the return can become a pathway for recovery and development and not another struggle for survival.

Interviewer (11:32)

What do you think and what sense do you get about what the conditions are elsewhere? Because these are areas where you have access to and relief agencies have access to. But we know that fighting is still ongoing in some parts of Darfur, in Kordofan States as well. And what are you hearing about the conditions there?

Seung Ah Lee (11:49)

Yes, we are getting some reports, however, those places, the humanitarian access is being challenged, that due to the ongoing conflict and attacks and also some of these bureaucratic impediments in making sure that we can get all the travel documents cleared. So it is a challenging situation to access. But the report that we are getting, it is a very severe humanitarian crisis in those places as well.

Interviewer (12:24)

We know that several countries recently gathered in Berlin a conference on Sudan, and pledges were made to the tune of, I think it's $1.3 billion, if that's what I last heard. But we've also had certain players say that it's one thing to make pledges, it's another to deliver them. What sort of shortfalls have you seen in the delivery of pledges to Sudan, and what are you doing to try and surmount those challenges?

Seung Ah Lee (12:52)

So, as I mentioned, Sudan is facing severe humanitarian crisis and there is a huge gap in infrastructure, basic services to the population. Also, as I mentioned, the people who are returning, it will be very important for them because I see the resilience of the Sudanese people trying to rebuild. But it will be extremely challenging if there's no basic infrastructure, basic services to provide that opportunity. And therefore, it is important that the States, the commitments that made is the commitment they have made is delivered. And I think the international attention and collaboration is really important. It is a pivotal moment for Sudan.

Interviewer (13:44)

I mean, and sorry if I'm pressing on this issue, but I'd like some specifics where possible. How much do you reckon is needed to provide basic support in the areas that you visited? How much has and how much is available at the moment? What's the balance?

Seung Ah Lee (14:02)

So for IOM, we have pledged for 170 million for 2026 for the Sudan response. Currently we have received about 40% of that amount. But if we think about also what's happening in the neighbo countries and the returns and cross border movement, we have pledged for 270 million for Sudan and the neighboring countries as well. So the gap is still big and it is really important that we put attention to this issue.

Wahiga Mwaura (14:43)

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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Wahiga Mwaura (15:55)

with the conflict in Sudan entering its fourth year, I was keen to look at the situation of displaced people. And so when this opportunity to interview Soon Ali was made available, I was grateful, especially because of her personal connection with Sudan, which came across in this interview. She wasn't just talking about a place she visited once or she read statistics about, but this is a place where she grew up and she knew what the country looked like. She knew the people. And now when she came back for this visit, it was a completely different situation. Her knowledge of Sudan surprised me, but also made me glad that there are people who are supporting the humanitarian cause there who are aware of what Sudan used to look like, or at least Khartoum. And hopefully one day this vision will come back to life. Listening to Soong Ah Li and then hearing from analysts familiar with the warring parties makes one thing very clear. There's a massive gap between what the leaders want and what the people want. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Song Ali.

Interviewer (17:03)

What considerations did you make as to where you want to visit? This is a country that's been in turmoil for the last Three years. I know there's a lot of different areas you could have gone to. Why did you decide on these particular states? Is it a safety issue where you can actually reach? Is it where you feel the biggest needs are? Give us a sense.

Seung Ah Lee (17:22)

Absolutely. Yes, there's also a safety issue, but also because Khartoum and Al Jazeera are the two states that we are anticipating the biggest return for. Khartoum we have seen already, based on our data, 1.8 million people returning and we anticipate another 2 million. In Al Jazeera, based on our data, about 80 to 85% of the population have already returned. So we need to work together to make sure that these returns can go towards recovery and stability. Kezala and JDRF are the two states that are hosting big amount of displaced population. And this is important to make sure that these populations have a way to get a basic humanitarian need and therefore have some stability. We will also see these populations moving back to their home states as well. And IOM is here to support and deliver for those movement and populations in need.

Interviewer (18:33)

I know you've spoken to government officials, you've spoken to citizens in the different places you've visited. What are their reflections on the state of their country and their future? You know, as we get into the fourth year, are they hopeful that, you know, a brighter day lies ahead, or are they more sort of despondent with the fact that the world has been unable to stop the conflict in Sudan?

Seung Ah Lee (19:00)

So many of the government officials I met, especially on the state level, they knew very well the issues. They knew where the gaps were, they knew the critical lack of services and infrastructure. So there were, they were very much hoping that we can work together with the government so that we put at least the foundational ground for the people to rebuild. The people I met, for example, I met with the women groups and one woman told me that she lost her husband and the son at the same time and she came back to her home state. I cannot imagine how devastating that would be. But she found support from other women, from peer groups and they're working together to support each other, to provide a psychosocial support, but also trying to think what kind of income generating activities that they can do together. I was partnering with these women groups and I see resilience in them.

Interviewer (20:10)

Okay. I mean, even as we reflect on Sudan, there are conflicts in other parts of the African continent. And I know IOM looks at migration patterns. What can you tell us about migration patterns in late 2025 into 2026? Anything different anything stand out with everything we're seeing in the world, conflicts in the Middle east and elsewhere For Africa, what are the migration trends like from where you sit?

Seung Ah Lee (20:35)

So what we are seeing from these conflicts, Sarah, these conflicts are reshaping how, who and where the migrations are happening. If we look at the conflicts at zone like Sudan, Afghanistan and Horn of Africa, these conflicts not only just increase the number of migration, but it has made the migration route more complex, more fragmented and more dangerous and lethal. Also we actually see these movement usually spurs happening within the country and also in the neighboring countries. And sometimes we see a longer pattern of stranded migrants in this transition and afterwards they move forward. We are seeing Libya, especially eastern part of Libya, reemerging as a transit hub. And we also see the changes of nationalities that are arriving in Europe. I think it's important to note that enforcing border and just focusing that doesn't reduce the number of arrivals. What happens is there are new emerging routes coming out and these routes are more complex, more expensive, more lethal and dangerous. And therefore it is important when we look at our partnership and international collaboration to also see how we can support the displaced population within the country and also supporting the transit countries as well. It's important to note that 80 to 85% of the migrants in Africa is currently within the region. So supporting the stability of the region will be also an important aspect.

Interviewer (22:44)

I mean, you've raised some interesting aspects, one I want to pick up on. EU nations have been signing pacts with African countries to stem migration at source. Is this a sustainable route in your view or approach?

Seung Ah Lee (22:58)

We believe it is very important for regional coordination and collaboration because as I mentioned, these routes are much more fragmented now and becoming complex. No one nation can solve or address these issues. As mentioned also, these partnership and collaboration should not only look at the border management and enforcement, but also looking at how we can support the transit countries as well as regional collaboration and the stability community, stability efforts as well.

Interviewer (23:37)

Maybe my last question then would be with what you've seen whilst you are in Sudan, what impact would you say aid cuts have had on, on those who most need it and on migration?

Seung Ah Lee (23:49)

So when humanitarian development aid funding is reduced, people are left with fewer options. And when I look at what is happening to the returnees, when I look at what is happening to the displaced population, if they don't find stability, if they don't find livelihood, if they don't find a way to survive in where they are, the movements are going to be more dangerous and the movements are going to continue. Sometimes we need to understand the a cut now might lead to more costly intervention in the future.

Interviewer (24:30)

And one last word from you on your visit to Sudan. One last reflection. I'll leave that up to you.

Seung Ah Lee (24:36)

It has been a sobering and a humbling experience coming back to Sudan at this moment, but I have also seen resilience of the Sudanese people, their hospitality to displaced population, and even with the stretched infrastructure and services, they were welcome in a hosting displaced population. I do think we need to focus both on humanitarian aid and recovery efforts. Sudan needs us.

Wahiga Mwaura (25:15)

Thanks for listening to the interview. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can find many more episodes of the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including ones with Winnie Bianyima, the head of unaids, Mohammed Idris, Nigeria's Information Minister, and UN Chief Antonio Guterres. Until next time, it's bye for now.

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She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama, Mary you Will Flourish, based on the best selling novel the Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch with a free trial@britbox.com.