The Epstein survivors speak

Summary

The Interview (BBC World Service) – "The Epstein Survivors Speak"

Date: April 16, 2026
Host: Victoria Derbyshire

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Episode Overview

This powerful episode features in-depth, first-person accounts from a group of women who survived sexual abuse perpetrated by the late Jeffrey Epstein. Interviewed by BBC presenter Victoria Derbyshire in Washington, D.C., the survivors discuss how they were groomed and exploited, the life-altering impact of the abuse, ongoing demands for justice, and the persistent culture of silence and impunity around Epstein's crimes. The conversation comes amidst renewed public scrutiny following the release of the "Epstein files" and calls from high-profile figures, including the First Lady, for congressional hearings on the matter. The episode contains graphic descriptions of abuse and candid, often emotional, reflections.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Testimonies: Meeting Epstein and the Nature of Abuse

(Timestamps: 03:30–07:14)

• First Encounters:

  • Survivors introduce themselves — Wendy Passante, Joanna Harrison, Jennalisa Jones, Shantae Davies, Lisa Phillips, and "Nikki" (a pseudonym for confidentiality).
  • All describe being very young (ages range from 14 to early 20s) when first exploited by Epstein, often through invitations for "massages" from friends or acquaintances.

• Shantae Davies (04:09):
  "Initially, I had met him one time, and he basically masturbated in front of me on the first encounter...very much deer in headlights where you freeze."

• JennaLisa Jones (05:35):
  "He didn't offer me anything. My friend did. She said it was going to be a massage...you freeze. And so you...just buy your time. You know, you're like, I know. I'm only going to be in here for so long. Right. So you just try to get through it, and then, you know, you don't have to come back."

• Feelings at the Time:
  Survivors frequently describe feeling trapped, isolated, and unable to protect themselves or speak out.

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2. Systemic Failure and Lack of Accountability

(Timestamps: 06:22–07:24, 09:38–10:25)

• Ignored by Authorities:

  • Despite their names being submitted multiple times, many survivors (notably Jennalisa and Wendy) were never contacted by the FBI or other authorities.
  • Wendy Passante: “They're telling everyone that investigations have happened. When I'm saying, hey, you know, I'm not saying that I have any other abusers or any other information to give you, but the fact that you haven't even cared to ask...maybe that's not a can of worms that we want to open." (06:24)

• Sense of Ongoing Danger:

  • Survivors stress Epstein "didn't run this whole operation himself," and believe many perpetrators remain uninvestigated and unpunished.
  • Jennalisa Jones: "He didn't run this whole operation himself. So the fact that you were gonna just put that just because he was the one that abused us, that that's where. Oh, okay. He's died. You got justice. I don't feel that him dying is justice to me." (06:52)

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3. Breaking Silence: The Emotive Toll of Disclosure

(Timestamps: 07:24–10:25)

• Reluctant Public Testimony:

  • Joanna Harrison describes never planning to reveal her identity, but was prompted to do so due to the unredacted release of her name in the public Epstein files.
  • Joanna Harrison: "I actually didn't because my fear was, with the files being released, that my name would be released, which it was. And it was released over and over..."

• Police Response:

  • Joanna details a “strange” and intimidating interview with police, after which she felt more like a suspect than a victim. No follow-up ensued.

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4. Grooming, Drugging, and Sophisticated Manipulation

(Timestamps: 11:06–13:07)

• "Nikki"’s Experience:
  • Groomed whilst working as a model at 19, Nikki recounts being drugged by Epstein and losing consciousness for over 12 hours, later realizing and being told directly by Epstein that she had been raped.
  • Nikki: "I have no recollection of anything for a minimum of 12 hours after that. I just remember waking up and feeling, oh, my gosh, I'm sick...I definitely felt that almost pressure." (11:49)
  • On Recollection: "And that was a memory I did not recall until September of 2019, when I literally was balled up on the floor having a panic attack at home." (13:07)

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5. Fear of Retaliation and Ongoing Risk

(Timestamps: 13:19–14:20)

• Speaking Out vs. Safety:

  • Shantae Davies (and others) worry about being targeted due to their activism:
    “Yeah, because I don't plan on quitting...I feel like there's already been people who have been silenced permanently. And I don't know why that would leave us. Why would we be left off that list, to be honest? I mean, even Jeffrey himself. I mean, whoever killed him silenced him." (13:34)

• Unanimous Belief About Epstein’s Death:

  • All survivors express they do not believe Epstein died by suicide.
    Davies: “Absolutely not.” (14:00)

• Understanding of His Character:
  Survivors state, with certainty, that Epstein considered himself beyond consequences and had powerful friends.

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6. High-Profile Enablers and the Role of Ghislaine Maxwell

(Timestamps: 15:56–20:57)

• Lisa Phillips on Prince Andrew:

  • Recounts being on Epstein’s island and seeing Prince Andrew interacting with Epstein and young women.
    “He sent a boat and I just spent the day there...it was a real massage that turned into...with myself, it was an assault.” (16:17)

  • Discusses her friend’s coercion into having sex with Andrew, pressured by Epstein.
    “That's what happened.” (19:01)

• Jeffrey Epstein’s Leverage:
  "I like to have things on people." (19:15)

• Maxwell’s Role:

  • Described as the facilitator who built trust and groomed young women.
  • Shantae Davies: “She very much was the person that made it feel safe...seemed to take a very large interest in what I had already gone through at that point in my life and what my goals were and my dreams.” (19:50)

• Anger at Lack of Prosecutions:
  General outrage that Maxwell is the only person in prison, despite clear evidence of a much wider network.
  Lisa Phillips: "Infuriating." (20:18)

• Maxwell’s Silence:

  • Sparking frustration that she may hold vital information as leverage for herself.

---

7. Virginia Giuffre’s Legacy and the Prince Andrew Settlement

(Timestamps: 21:08–22:41)

• Role Model for Other Survivors:

  • Lisa Phillips describes Giuffre’s bravery as catalytic for other women coming forward.
  • Phillips: “The only reason why I spoke out was because I saw her 60 minute interview and she was speaking about former Prince Andrew and I felt like I had to support her.” (21:18)

• Skepticism About Settlement Claims:

  • JennaLisa Jones and Wendy Passante openly deride Andrew’s claims of innocence:
    “You don't pay $12 million if you're not wrong..." (22:27)

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8. Impact on Survivors’ Lives

(Timestamps: 22:41–24:50)

• Enduring Trauma:

  • All survivors speak of lifelong effects — from mistrust in men to impaired relationships and constant re-traumatization from lack of justice or closure.

  • JennaLisa Jones: "I mean, it set the tone. I was 14 years old. It led me down a very dark path for quite some years, and from that moment on, it learned how to use my body for money." (22:55)

  • Shantae Davies: "I don't think there's an aspect of my life that it hasn't affected...I could never leave my daughter alone with a man, any man, ever, no matter what age. She'll never have a sleepover..." (23:46)

• Struggle to Move On:

  • Wendy Passante expresses the hope that the world may one day forget Epstein's name:
    “My justice would be to move on and never hear about this man's name again in the future. I would like a generation not to know who Jeffrey Epstein is someday.” (24:39)

  • Joanna Harrison adds, “I have questions I'll never get an answer to and so for me there's not really any [justice]. But I just hope that we can see through this and see and never have anything like this happen again." (24:50)

• Justice Elusive:

  • Accountability—arresting complicit individuals and “doing their jobs”—is the bare minimum survivors request. None believe full justice is achievable.

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Memorable Quotes

• Shantae Davies (on the moment of abuse):
  “It's almost like very much deer in headlights where you freeze.” (04:26)

• Jennalisa Jones (on justice):
  "I don't feel that him dying is justice to me. And the fact that people think that this isn't still happening. It is." (06:52)

• Lisa Phillips (on coercion and leverage):
  "He just, like, had this little grin that he has, you know, a little smirk he has. You know, I like to have things on people." (19:15)

• Joanna Harrison (on trauma’s endurance):
  “You can't. It's hard to heal when it's something you see every day.” (23:25)

• JennaLisa Jones (on Andrew’s settlement):
  "You don't pay $12 million if you're not wrong." (22:27)

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Significant Segments & Timestamps

• Survivors introduce themselves: 03:30–03:58
• Shantae Davies describes abuse and feelings of shock and isolation: 04:09–04:50
• JennaLisa Jones on being brought in and the response from authorities: 05:35–06:52
• Joanna Harrison’s story of being outed through leaked files: 07:24–08:02
• Nikki on being drugged and assaulted by Epstein: 11:06–13:07
• Discussion about the doubts around Epstein’s death: 13:19–14:20
• Lisa Phillips on being assaulted and witnessing Prince Andrew’s presence: 15:56–17:27
• Discussion about Maxwell’s role and her silence: 19:50–20:57
• Reflection on Virginia Giuffre’s influence: 21:08–21:43
• Impact of trauma on adult life: 22:41–24:07
• What justice means for survivors: 24:11–24:50

---

Conclusion

In this urgent and raw discussion, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein’s sex trafficking detail not just the specifics of their abuse, but the complex, ongoing effects of trauma and the deep frustration at a society and justice system that continues to evade accountability. Each survivor’s experience is both unique and tragically familiar, exposing failures in law enforcement and culture, the complicity of powerful individuals, and the extraordinary courage it takes to speak out.

Transcript

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[BBC Interviewer]

this is the BBC World Service. The following edition of the interview with

[BBC Announcer]

survivors of Jeffrey Epstein contains descriptions you

[BBC Interviewer]

may find upsetting from the outset.

[Victoria Derbyshire]

Hello, I'm BBC presenter Victoria Derbyshire and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC People shaping our world from all over the world.

[BBC Interviewer]

If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

We have never seen a people so united.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

Being born in America, feeling American, having

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

people treat me like I'm not.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

We're more popular than populism.

[Victoria Derbyshire]

For this interview, I met survivors of the late paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier who died in prison in 2019 while awaiting trial for charges of sex trafficking. I met the survivors in Washington, D.C. and our conversation took place just two weeks before the first lady of the United States, Melania Trump, gave an unexpected press conference at the White House, during which she called for congressional hearings for survivors of Epstein's sex trafficking. Her intervention comes amid a backdrop of the ongoing fallout from the release of the Epstein files by the US Department of Justice. Millions of documents, emails and Photographs are now in the public domain and show Epstein's connections to high profile figures around the world, across politics, business, and royalty. In this interview, which some listeners may find upsetting, Epstein's survivors share their experiences and discuss the impact that the abuse has had on their lives. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with survivors of Jeffrey Epstein.

[Wendy Passante (Survivor)]

My name is Wendy Passante, and I'm an Epstein survivor.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

I'm Joanna Harrison, and I was trafficked by Epstein when I was 18.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

And I am Jennalisa Jones, and I'm a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's at the age of 14.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

I'm Shantae Davies. I am a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein, and I met him at 22 years old.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

I'm Lisa Phillips, and I'm a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein, and I also met him in my early twenties as well.

[BBC Interviewer]

Welcome. Thank you. Shantae, if I can begin with you, can I ask what happened when the abuse began?

[Victoria Derbyshire]

Well,

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

so initially, I had met him one time, and he basically masturbated in front of me on the first encounter.

[BBC Interviewer]

And when that happens, Shanta, what on earth are you thinking?

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

Quite honestly? I mean, you're very much in shock, or at least someone who's not apt to being able to have a voice in that situation and to be able to protect your own self. It's almost like very much deer in headlights where you freeze.

[BBC Interviewer]

And I understand he took you to his ranch in New Mexico.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

It's a very eerie feeling to it.

[BBC Interviewer]

So there are a few people there. It's isolating. How are you feeling?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Trapped.

[BBC Interviewer]

And I understand he also took you to his private island. Did he sexually assault you there?

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

Yeah. That's actually where the first actual assault happened is on the island.

[BBC Interviewer]

Right. Did he rape you?

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

Mm.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

Yeah.

[BBC Interviewer]

I'm gonna bring in Janalisa and Wendy now. How old were you both when you encountered Epstein for the first time?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

14.

[BBC Interviewer]

You were both 14. And, Jennalisa, can I ask you what he offered you or suggested to you or how he brought you in?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

He didn't offer me anything. My friend did. She said it was going to be a massage, and it was supposed to be just so very, like, that's what it was going to be, and it wasn't. It does start out as a massage, and he's like, telling you what to do, and then he just, like, flips over, and then that whole dynamic changes. And then at that time, you do. You freeze. And so you. You just buy your time. You know, you're like, I know. I'm only going to be in here for so long. Right. So you just try to get through it, and then, you know, you don't have to come back.

[BBC Interviewer]

Your name, as I understand it, was given to the FBI multiple times for her, right? Multiple times. And have you ever been interviewed?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Never by them?

[BBC Interviewer]

Never by the US Authorities?

[Nikki (Survivor)]

Never.

[BBC Interviewer]

What do you think about that?

[Wendy Passante (Survivor)]

They're telling everyone that investigations have happened. When I'm saying, hey, you know, I'm not saying that I have any other abusers or any other information to give you, but the fact that you haven't even cared to ask. So what they're kind of saying, like, maybe that's not a can of worms that we want to open. And, you know, we do hear that a lot, that he's dead. You know, what can you do?

[BBC Interviewer]

But what do you think about that, Jennalisa?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Well, I just think it's mind blowing. He didn't run this whole operation himself. So the fact that you were gonna just put that just because he was the one that abused us, that that's where. Oh, okay. He's died. You got justice. I don't feel that him dying is justice to me. And the fact that people think that this isn't still happening. It is. Don't think for one second that they've stopped doing what they've been doing.

[BBC Interviewer]

You mean the perpetrators?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And honestly, they're probably laughing at all of us, like, yeah, you guys will be dead before this ever goes anywhere. So we're not worried about it.

[BBC Interviewer]

Joanna, I'd like to bring in you, if I may. You have never spoken publicly before, correct? About what happened to you until today?

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

Yes.

[BBC Interviewer]

And I think, Joanna, you were never planning to reveal your identity, were you?

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

No, I wasn't.

[BBC Interviewer]

And did you want the Epstein files to be released?

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

I actually didn't because my fear was, with the files being released, that my name would be released, which it was. And it was released over and over

[BBC Interviewer]

and over again, even though it was supposed to have been redacted.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

And it's like, all right, I guess. I guess it's my time.

[BBC Interviewer]

Right. And that's led to your decision today?

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

Pretty much, yeah.

[BBC Interviewer]

You had just graduated from high school.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

Yes.

[BBC Interviewer]

So what kind of age are you there?

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

I was 18 when I met him.

[Victoria Derbyshire]

Right.

[BBC Interviewer]

And similar to what we heard from Janalisa and Wendy, someone, a friend, said to you, look, you can make a few hundred dollars rub this guy's back. He's rich. There was another time when you recall his abuse, and that was his birthday. That was Epstein's birthday?

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

Yes. Yeah. On that day he raped me.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

And

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

I didn't really consider it rape at first. It took me a very long time to realize what happened. Part of it is because I had been violently raped prior and so.

[Victoria Derbyshire]

By someone else.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

By somebody else. Yeah. And so when that was happening, it was nothing like what I had experienced before. And so it just. You almost feel like you're not getting raped. And he stopped. And so it's like you have. It's. It's a very mind boggling because it's like something that just lasts like a few seconds or it's like you just, okay, that didn't really happen. You can kind of push that down or that doesn't count.

[BBC Interviewer]

What happened after and not that long after is that the Palm beach police approach you to interview you? Yes, in 2006. 2006. And did anything happen after that?

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

It was a strange interview. They didn't really tell me what it was about, what to expect. And when I was speaking with the police, they took down my statement, but didn't say much after they. I felt like I was going to get in trouble. I didn't know if I was a suspect of something that I could be in trouble for. But it was so strange because it was just kind of like, oh, well, don't be surprised if you hear from his attorneys or what. Yeah, it was. I actually left terrified, thinking that I was going to be followed and have people constantly showing up.

[BBC Interviewer]

And, you know, so obviously nothing happened after that.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

No follow up at all until his arrest. And then I found out when the world found out.

[BBC Interviewer]

There are other survivors who don't want to be identified. And I've been talking to one of them. We're calling her Nikki. It's not her real name, like Joanna. Here she is speaking publicly for the first time and she tells me why

[Nikki (Survivor)]

I want to stay confidential. For a variety of reasons, it is very challenging. It's hard to make this decision. But ultimately there is collateral damage, not only to myself, but to my loved ones, my children, my spouse, my family, my clients. I'm a small business owner. I. I don't want any undue harm to come to any of them.

[BBC Interviewer]

You were introduced to him when you were 19 and you were working as a model. Yes, and similar to others. Your friend said that giving Epstein a massage was a way to make money.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

So I'd started at his feet, worked my way up, and when I got to his upper thigh and went onto his chest, he pulled at my, at my jeans, like almost to Unbuttoned them, and I stepped back and I said, no, I'm on my period. Which I wasn't.

[Wendy Passante (Survivor)]

I lied.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

And from there, he was like, oh, well, some of the girls like to have sex. You should. You should really think about having sex with me. It would be so great. I'd be the best you've ever had, or something like that. And I was just like, no, I'm good.

[BBC Interviewer]

And.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

And so he asked me to massage his chest. And I remember doing that. And he had a bottle of Fiji water, which is the water he always had. And he said, make sure you stay hydrated. You need to. You need to be sure to stay hydrated. And I did. I took some water. And I have no recollection of anything for a minimum of 12 hours after that. I just remember waking up and feeling, oh, my gosh, I'm sick. I felt sluggish and, like, heavy. And then I got up and I went to the bathroom. And as a woman, you can. You feel certain things when you've had intercourse? Sometimes. And I definitely felt that almost pressure.

[BBC Interviewer]

Can I ask you, do you think when you were out cold, he raped you?

[Nikki (Survivor)]

100%.

[BBC Interviewer]

Right.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

And I know that because he told me.

[BBC Interviewer]

He told you he raped you?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Yes.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

Because during the third massage, he once again tried to pull up my jeans. And I was like, no, no, I'm on my period. And he says, you don't have to lie to me, Nikki. I didn't put two and two together until I made that call on July 8, 2019, to the FBI.

[BBC Interviewer]

Because he already knew you weren't on your period because he'd raped you.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

And then he did again.

[BBC Interviewer]

Jesus.

[Nikki (Survivor)]

And that was a memory I did not recall until September of 2019, when I literally was balled up on the floor having a panic attack at home listening to Nikki.

[BBC Interviewer]

Do you understand that sort of fear that she's described?

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

Although at times I do. You know, I find myself locking doors in my house that I didn't normally lock before.

[BBC Interviewer]

Because you think what, you. You might potentially be targeted because you've

[Victoria Derbyshire]

spoken out against powerful.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

Yeah, because I don't plan on quitting. And I still have a lot more to say that hasn't been said, so. So, yeah, I feel like there's already been people who have been silenced permanently. And I don't know why that would leave us. Why would we be left off that list, to be honest? I mean, even Jeffrey himself. I mean, whoever killed him silenced him.

[BBC Interviewer]

So you don't believe he took his own life?

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

Absolutely not.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

No.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

None of us did.

[BBC Interviewer]

None of you do. Do you have any evidence that he was.

[Victoria Derbyshire]

Do you have any evidence?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Why would we have.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

Because we knew him, Zoe.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Yeah.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

We knew the kind of person he was.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

He never. He knew. He thought he was going to walk away from even this phobic.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

He knew he was going to get away with it.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

Yeah, he.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

He got away with it before.

[Victoria Derbyshire]

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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[Nikki (Survivor)]

Let's get started.

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[Victoria Derbyshire]

I've been talking to a group of women who survived the sexual abuse perpetrated by the paedophile Jeffrey Epstein. These women were determined and frustrated and sick of being ignored. And they want justice. But justice means something different to each of them. So let's return to my conversation with Epstein's survivors.

[BBC Interviewer]

Lisa, you were a 21 year old model and you were on a modeling shoot with a friend of yours and you both met Epstein on his island in the year 2000. And like with the other women here, he knocked on your door. Yep. Ready for my massage. How would you describe what happened to you?

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

He sent a boat and I just spent the day there and one of the young girls knocked on the door and said, you know, Jeffrey was ready for his massage and I had to always remember that phrase. And like they all said it was a real massage that turned into with myself. It was an assault. Right after he turned around and started masturbating and assaulted both myself and the other girl that was in the room that day.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Okay.

[BBC Interviewer]

Afterwards, how did that make you feel?

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

I was horrified. It was scary to me because I was on an island. I didn't know how to get away and I just stayed up all night just like waiting for dawn to break, just to get on that boat, to go back and leave that island. We weren't expecting this to happen. And I think that he liked the fear in our eyes. I think he liked that we were frozen and scared and didn't know what to do, and I think he got off on that.

[BBC Interviewer]

The first time you were sexually assaulted, Andrew was on that island at that time.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

Sorry. Yeah, I met him briefly. He was in the pool with a young blonde girl, and at dinner, he was getting ready to leave, and he said goodbye to everybody at the table. And that's when I was telling Jeffrey, when I had met him that I had grown up the first few years of my life in Oxford, England. And that's when he said, did you want to meet a prince? And so I just looked up and met him briefly, and he walked away. So I didn't really think much of it till a few years later.

[BBC Interviewer]

What is it that your friend told you that Andrew had done to her?

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

Well, my girlfriend, she was the reason why I started speaking out, because I wanted to speak for her, because she didn't want to, because the abuse happened to her. And in late 2003, she had been traveling a bit with Jeffrey, like, kind of like you had, you know, to different countries and things. And. And she said she went to his Upper east side house and former Prince Andrew was there, and that he made her. Forced her to go into a room and to have sex with this man. And she was. Didn't want to. And she argued with him, but he said. She said he made her. And she went into the room for a few minutes, and then he kind of discarded her and walked out.

[BBC Interviewer]

And when you say he, who's the he making her do that? Jeffrey Epstein making her go into that room, and Andrew was in there, and she was required to have sex with him.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

That's what happened.

[BBC Interviewer]

Right. Andrew denies all wrongdoing. You, as I understand it, you confronted Epstein after that.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

You.

[BBC Interviewer]

What did you say to him? How did he respond?

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

I had just said to him, you know, why did you make my. Why did you make so and so do that? He just, like, had this little grin that he has, you know, a little smirk he has. You know, I like to have things on people. And I was just like, what?

[BBC Interviewer]

He likes to have things on people.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

So I remember I wrote it in my diary because I was like, what did that. That didn't make sense.

[BBC Interviewer]

Epstein and Maxwell obviously worked together. She's in jail for 20 years, as you know, for essentially luring underage girls, young Women for Epstein to abuse. What was her role?

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

She very much was the person that made it feel safe. She was the first person I met and seemed to take a very large interest in what I had already gone through at that point in my life and what my goals were and my dreams.

[BBC Interviewer]

And that's part of the grooming process, isn't it? You make people believe they care about you. How much does it concern you that there is only one person in prison for the abuse of all these girls and women, and it's her.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

Infuriating.

[BBC Interviewer]

Infuriating.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

Oh, yeah.

[BBC Interviewer]

Recently, Ghislaine Maxwell refused to answer questions from the U.S. house Oversight Committee when she appeared virtually from her Texas prison.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

I think silence speaks louder than words a lot of times.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Honestly, I think it's laughable that they even brought her out there. She wants immunity. That's all it is. She's not gonna say anything, give up anything. She's only out there to protect herself. So the fact that we keep doing stuff like that is just honestly a joke.

[BBC Interviewer]

Does it say to you, she knows stuff, she's just keeping it back as leverage?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

We all know that she does.

[Wendy Passante (Survivor)]

Yeah.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Yeah.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

She knows everything that we would want to hear. But she's never gonna divulge that information. Even if she was granted clemency, she wouldn't divulge that information. It's not going to happen.

[BBC Interviewer]

One woman who is no longer here is Virginia Giuffre. What did she mean to some of you? You're smiling, Lisa, when you think about

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

Virginia, why I do, because she was so brave. I think if she hadn't come forward, most of us wouldn't have. I know. The only reason why I spoke out was because I saw her 60 minute interview and she was speaking about former Prince Andrew and I felt like I had to support her. You know, I reached out to her after that and started, like, connecting the dots. A little bit of our stories.

[BBC Interviewer]

You will know that she said she was forced to have sex with Andrew on three separate occasions. Having been trafficked by Epstein and Maxwell. Andrew paid her an out of court settlement, reportedly 12 million with no liability, with no. He's always rejected claims of wrongdoing. He said at the end of the statement that accompanied that settlement that he pledged to demonstrate his regret for his association with Epstein by, quote, supporting the fight against the evils of sex trafficking and by supporting his victims. As far as we know. You're smiling. Journalisa as I read this. Why?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Because it's just crazy that, like. Yeah, I don't know why Would he even say that? Like, support who?

[BBC Interviewer]

He's always denied wrongdoing, but you think

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

you don't pay $12 million if you're not wrong.

[BBC Interviewer]

So even though he says, I don't remember Virginia Giuffre, I never met her. I've never done anything wrong.

[Wendy Passante (Survivor)]

Why did you pay her $12 million, then?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Why'd you lose your title? Why have you been ran through the mud?

[BBC Interviewer]

Can I ask you all? What has been the impact of the sexual abuse that you were subjected to by Epstein on the rest of your life? Genalisa.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

I mean, it set the tone. I was 14 years old. It led me down a very dark path for quite some years, and from that moment on, it learned how to use my body for money. I think it's hard to keep going over it all the time and seeing nothing come out of it. And I think this is more re. Traumatizing than the actual abuse. I think a lot of us say that, and just a lot, because you

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

can't get away from it. You can't. It's hard to heal when it's something you see every day, or when I was on a first date and somebody brought it up to me, not knowing my involvement. There's certain things that you can't prepare yourself for, and it makes it really hard to heal when you're stuck in the same place and seeing that person's face every day and hearing their name every day.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

I don't think there's an aspect of my life that it hasn't affected it. It's physically, spiritually, emotionally. I could never leave my daughter alone with a man, any man, ever, no matter what age. She'll never have a sleepover because you

[BBC Interviewer]

just don't trust people.

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

I just. Yeah, I don't. You just. I just feel like you just don't really ever know what's going on behind closed doors.

[BBC Interviewer]

So it actually has affected every single part of your life.

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Absolutely.

[BBC Interviewer]

The abuse that Epstein subjected you to Journalisa. What does justice look like for you?

[Jennalisa Jones (Survivor)]

Honestly, Just starting with some accountability and arresting people and investigating and doing their jobs. I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever be able to fully have justice. So to be able to ask that question, I feel like, is like, will we truly ever have full justice in this?

[Shantae Davies (Survivor)]

No.

[Lisa Phillips (Survivor)]

Right.

[Wendy Passante (Survivor)]

I'll say that my justice would be to move on and never hear about this man's name again in the future. I would like a generation not to know who Jeffrey Epstein is someday.

[Joanna Harrison (Survivor)]

I agree. I mean, I don't know that there really is a justice that we can get, especially with Epstein not being around anymore. We don't get our answers. We don't. I have questions I'll never get an answer to and so for me there's not really any. But I just hope that we can see through this and see and never have anything like this happen again.

[Victoria Derbyshire]

Thank you for listening to the interview. If you've been affected by our conversation, you can reach out to befrienders worldwide for help by visiting befrienders.org you can find more in depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Until the next time, goodbye for now.

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[Nikki (Survivor)]

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