Podcast Summary: "3 Senators Who Quit on Why Congress Won’t Stand Up to Trump"
The Interview, The New York Times
Air Date: December 13, 2025
Host: Lulu Garcia-Navarro
Guests: Jeff Flake (R - Arizona, left office 2019), Joe Manchin (I, ex-D-WV, left 2025), Tina Smith (D-MN, not seeking reelection 2026)

Episode Overview

In a candid roundtable, Lulu Garcia-Navarro speaks with three senators—Jeff Flake, Joe Manchin, and Tina Smith—who have all decided to leave or soon leave the U.S. Senate, exploring why Congress, and particularly the Senate, has become so feeble at standing up to presidential power, especially under a resurgent Donald Trump. The conversation is an unvarnished examination of dysfunction, partisanship, the decline of congressional prerogative, filibuster debates, party leadership, and whether true accountability or structural reforms can restore the Senate to its central role in American democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Structure

1. The State of the Senate: One-word Summaries

[Timestamps: 02:58–03:33]

• Tina Smith: "Broken."
• Jeff Flake: "Retreat." — Senate “willingly gave up Article 1 authority.”
• Joe Manchin: "Abdication." — The Senate has “abdicated” its responsibilities.

“We left.” – Joe Manchin (02:58)

2. Erosion of Senate Power & Trump’s Presidency

[Timestamps: 04:20–05:43]

• Flake’s 2018 speech warning against authoritarian drift.
• All agreed that while the U.S. is not an authoritarian system, senators have surrendered war powers, tariff decisions, and more, failing to check executive overreach.
• Flake: “Every president ... will push some limits ... This president is doing that in spades, obviously, but that’s why you need a Senate willing to stand up.”
  • (05:02)

3. Partisanship and Departure Motivations

[Timestamps: 06:00–09:44]

• Manchin: Left the Democratic Party, calling its national brand "toxic" and disconnected from working class values in rural states.
• Smith: Insists her decision to leave really is about family, but acknowledges growing political nastiness and violence (“assassination of my dear friend Melissa Hortman,” 08:07).
• Flake: “The price for doing so [running again] ... would have been for me to say, you know, those principles I said I believed in, I no longer do. And that ... was too steep” (09:44).
• Manchin: Reminisces about civility and collegiality—now lost—across party lines.

4. Changes in Congressional Culture

[Timestamps: 10:27–12:13]

• Manchin: Details how the House’s winner-take-all mindset migrated into the Senate, eroding bipartisanship.
• Flake: Cites the “Hastert rule” and how partisanship for electoral gain became normalized.
• Smith: Points out that Mitch McConnell and others prioritized defeating or blocking presidents.

5. Senate’s Failure as an Institutional Check

[Timestamps: 12:58–15:53]

• All agree the shift to presidential dominance can be reversed, but not easily.

• “We’ve never seen a time when presidential powers have been given back ... the president has amassed far more power and is using far more power than the Supreme Court has granted him.” – Flake (13:50)

• “The powers of the Senate and ... legislative branch are ... gushing out of the Capitol.” – Smith (14:11)

6. Filibuster & Senate Rules Debate

[Timestamps: 15:53–16:55]

• Smith: Open to filibuster reform: “If you're gonna filibuster a bill, you ought to at least have to stand on the damn floor and talk.” (15:56)
• Flake: Defends the filibuster as a mechanism to force bipartisan collaboration.
• Smith: Counters it often prevents progress on things Americans care about; the rules now “stymie” the institution.

7. Party Leadership Critique

[Timestamps: 16:55–19:17]

• Smith: Discusses Democratic “fight club” dissatisfied with Chuck Schumer’s candidate interventions.
• Manchin: Bemoans absence of moderates.
• Flake: Reminds of past bipartisan efforts (2013 Senate immigration bill), and that realigned incentives—not personalities—are the issue.

8. Republican Leadership and Trump’s Grip

[Timestamps: 19:17–22:06]

• Thune: Seen as an institutionalist, but too cautious; doesn’t directly resist Trump’s demands.
• Flake: “If you don't do what [Trump] says, that's a powerful political incentive. We may like it to be different, but that's the incentive structure ... They're in it now.” (21:06)

9. Potential Structural Reforms: Term Limits & Open Primaries

[Timestamps: 21:35–23:13]

• Manchin: Now supports term limits and open primaries, inspired by a constituent’s logic and Alaska’s system.
• Flake: “If we had the Alaska style thing, then I would run for re-election.” (23:05)

10. Effectiveness, Incrementalism, and Radical Change

[Timestamps: 25:36–27:31]

• Smith: Americans want big change—paid leave, affordable childcare, minimum wage increases—yet the Senate is “incapable of making the big changes that need to be made.”
• Flake: Defends incrementalism and the filibuster as stabilizing; warns against big swings, “Being a conservative means preserving … institutions that work.” (27:31)
• Manchin: Laments new “guilt by conversation” ostracization of bipartisanship.

11. Should the Left Adopt 'Economic Rage'?

[Timestamps: 28:58–30:53]

• Smith: Democrats “stuck in a bad relationship,” defining themselves only by opposition to Trump, lacking positive vision.
• Flake: Warns against Democrats pursuing a “platform of pure economic rage”—says extremism on both sides only accelerates polarization.

12. Immigration & Executive Overreach

[Timestamps: 31:07–34:22]

• Smith: Trump’s radical policies (such as mass deportation actions) are unpopular; Senate’s inability to act leaves room for the executive to fill the vacuum.
• Flake: Predicts a coming shift—midterms as a check on the President.
• Manchin: Dems lost working-class support by mishandling immigration; both sides use it as an electoral wedge.

13. Filibuster, Accountability, and Obamacare Precedent

[Timestamps: 34:49–36:45]

• Flake: Obamacare is an example of overreach—should have sought some Republican support for durability.
• Smith: “The filibuster ... masks accountability, because you can advocate for something, but you never actually get it done. And then you’re never really held accountable.” (36:16)

14. Senate and Foreign Policy: Venezuela, Oversight, Congressional Abdication

[Timestamps: 37:11–39:34]

• Flake: On Venezuela strikes: “There will be revulsion ... but it has been frustrating because in all areas of foreign policy ... [Congress] just haven't [acted] because they're afraid of what the president can do to them.” (38:00)
• Manchin: Urges the Senate as the only body with capacity to act, “The Senate can fix it ... if it does its job.”

15. “Do You Miss It?”: Reflections on Leaving

[Timestamps: 39:34–40:41]

• Manchin: “I could get more done on the outside than I can on the inside.”
• Flake: Misses the people, not the politics—“I didn’t get defeated. But I knew ... I would have to change who I was and say things that I didn’t believe.” (40:11)

16. Unvarnished Truths & Closing Thoughts

[Timestamps: 40:11–40:48]

• Flake: “Most of my former colleagues don’t agree with the policies they’re pursuing ... The political incentives are not aligned with them to speak truth to power here.” (40:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I am not burdened by the belief that I am the only one who can do this job. ... I'm actually quite invigorated by making space for leaders to step in.” – Tina Smith (09:12)
• “There used to be an old saying, you're guilt by association ... Now it's guilt by conversation. You can't even be seen having a conversation with someone who might not be on the same [side].” – Joe Manchin (28:21)
• “We ought to be able to meet the needs of Americans and what they want. And that's not been happening.” – Tina Smith (31:07)
• “If you don't do what I say, [Trump says] I can get a primary opponent for you. ... They're in it now.” – Jeff Flake (21:06)
• "I've come to the conclusion there's two things that would change politics in America ... term limits and open primaries." – Joe Manchin (21:35)
• “Most of my former colleagues don't agree with the policies they're pursuing on tariffs and foreign policy ... The political incentives are not aligned with them to speak truth to power.” – Jeff Flake (40:16)

Segment Timestamps (Selected Key Segments)

• 03:16—Word that describes the Senate now
• 04:49—Authoritarian drift: Senate cedes power to the presidency
• 06:00—Manchin on leaving the Democratic Party
• 08:07—Smith on political violence and the weight of leaving
• 12:13—Host: Senate isn’t acting as a check on executive
• 15:53—Filibuster, dysfunction, and calls for rule reform
• 19:17—Scrutiny of party leaders, Schumer, and Thune
• 21:35—Term limits and open primaries
• 25:36—Incrementalism vs. big swings for real reform
• 31:07—Democrats’ need for a positive, bold agenda
• 34:16—Recurring congressional failure on immigration
• 36:16—Filibuster masks accountability
• 37:11—Senate’s abdication on foreign affairs
• 39:34—Do you miss the Senate?
• 40:16—Unvarnished truth: Senators don’t believe in what they’re voting for, but incentives keep them in line.

Tone & Atmosphere

Blunt, regretful, and at times darkly humorous—the senators reflect genuine frustration but also humility and some hopes for renewal. They speak candidly about their own choices and institutional failings, balancing clear-eyed critique with a few glimmers that reform is possible, provided incentives and structural hurdles can shift.

For listeners seeking an honest inside account of what is wrong in today’s Congress—and why seasoned lawmakers actually walk away—this episode delivers direct analysis and rare candor.