Podcast Summary: The Interview – Chris Voss Says Trump’s Secret Weapon Is Empathy
The New York Times | August 16, 2025
Host: David Marchese; Guest: Chris Voss

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode delves into the art and science of negotiation with Chris Voss, former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator and author of “Never Split the Difference.” While Voss covers his experiences in high-stakes negotiations and practical communication techniques, the discussion especially focuses on the concept of “tactical empathy”—what it is, how it’s wielded in negotiation, and, most provocatively, how Voss sees it shaping the actions and perceived deal-making abilities of Donald Trump. The conversation extends into personal lessons, failures, and the nuances of compromise, offering listeners insights they can use both professionally and personally.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chris Voss’s Path to Negotiation

• Early Career & Motivation
  • Started as a SWAT officer; injury prompted a pivot to negotiation ([03:38])
  • Volunteered for a suicide hotline following advice, where he discovered the transformative power of emotional intelligence
  • “I discovered the magic of emotional intelligence. And then I was hooked.” – Chris Voss [03:38]
• Lessons from the Field
  • Early standout case: Chase Manhattan bank robbery, where the ringleader feigned weakness as a ploy—a behavior Voss later recognized as classic in able negotiators/CEOs ([04:56])

The Concept of Tactical Empathy

• Definition & Nuances
  • Rooted in Carl Rogers’ psychology: “When someone feels thoroughly understood, you release potent forces for change within them. Not agreed with, but understood.” – Chris Voss [07:52]
  • Emphasizes understanding and articulating the other side’s perspective, not agreement or sympathy
  • The word “tactical” is added to eliminate perceived weakness and gain wider appeal, especially with those resistant to “soft skills” ([08:43])
  • “You can't teach a Navy SEAL yoga breathing. You got to tell them it's tactical breathing.” – Chris Voss [08:54]
• Examples
  • Parsing complex global and local negotiations: from talking to distrustful Muslim clerics to tenants negotiating rents during the pandemic ([09:40])
  • Articulation of the other party’s reasons often leads to de-escalation and readiness for an actual agreement

Handling Difficult or Unempathetic Counterparts

• Empathy as Skill, Not Personality
  • “If you start there, then it frees you up to use it as a skill with anybody on earth.” – Chris Voss [11:59]
  • About 7% of negotiations may be doomed—a diagnostic approach is required to identify lost causes ([12:50])
• Real-World Example
  • Middle Eastern executive misperceived as a bully proved simply under immense pressure, unlocked by empathetic acknowledgment ([14:29])

Empathy: Manipulation or Power?

• Response to Elon Musk’s Claim
  • Empathy, per Voss, is “value-neutral”—powerful, but dangerous or helpful depending on intent ([15:40])
  • “Similar to a knife in one person's hand, it's a murder weapon. In another person's hand, it's a scalpel.” [16:36]

Negotiation as a Way of Life – and Trump as a Negotiator

• Negotiation Everywhere
  • Voss sees negotiation as pervasive in life, amplified culturally by Trump’s highly public approach ([16:47])
• Trump’s Actual Tactics
  • Trump’s in-person empathy and instinct for reading people contrasts with his “blunt object” social media persona ([17:37])
  • “He appears very publicly to be a blunt object, and then in person, he seems to make deals.” – Chris Voss [17:37]
  • Cites reported instances of surprising diplomatic outcomes, particularly in the Middle East (Abraham Accords, handling of Iran/Syria) ([21:40])
  • Recognizes Trump’s “highly evolved understanding of how other people see things,” especially in international contexts ([22:39], [23:46])
• On the Limits of Trump’s Empathy
  • Voss is less certain about the application of empathy by Trump or his administration in contexts like domestic immigration enforcement ([24:39])
  • Admits, “I’m not in a position to be able to offer an informed opinion on it. And yeah, I’m dodging your question. Fair enough.” – Chris Voss [25:02]

Overcoming the Fear of Negotiation

• Why People Fear Negotiation
  • Two-thirds fear conflict, though some love it; conflict is often just seen as inefficient
  • Key to Voss’s method: making negotiation collaborative rather than combative ([25:31])
  • Interesting aside: Women tend to pick up the negotiation style faster than men ([27:10])

When Both Sides Know the Same Negotiation Playbook

• Power Neutrality of Techniques
  • When both parties “play the same game,” intent becomes key: “I'm going to be able to smell your intent early on.” ([27:43])
  • It's acceptable and even healthy if both are oriented toward true collaboration

Tactics for Performance Reviews

• Negotiating with a Boss
  • Acknowledges employer’s viewpoint (“just another selfish employee”), then pivots to emphasize shared forward-looking goals ([29:00])
  • “Now you start talking to me about where we're going, about how you're going to make my life better. And I got a lot more latitude...” – Chris Voss [29:00]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On empathy:
  • “The magic of empathy... Not being sympathy, not being compassionate even, but being a precursor to compassion.” – Chris Voss [06:29]
• On reading people:
  • “You're reading my mind.” – Anonymous to Voss. “No, I'm reading your emotions.” – Chris Voss [06:29]
• On confrontation:
  • “Empathy is understanding how somebody sees it. I think [Trump] has a highly evolved sense of it.” – Chris Voss [22:39]
• On the risk of compromise:
  • “Compromise is guaranteed lose-lose... Compromise most of the time is people get lazy. It's a guarantee of mediocrity.” – Chris Voss [38:32–39:59]
• Personal vulnerability:
  • On his divorce: “There's no question I could have been a better man. Simultaneously, that doesn't mean it would have changed things.” – Chris Voss [34:30]
• Failure in the field:
  • “The first time things went really bad was in the second case of work in the Philippines, the Burnham Sibero case.” – Chris Voss [35:27]
• Self-awareness about impact:
  • “It hurt me. It wasn't a blood relative. I didn't lose a member of my family. So at that time, I remember thinking like, all right, so yeah, it was bad for you, it was worse for others. Stop feeling sorry for yourself.” – Chris Voss [36:50]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |-------------------------------------- |-------------| | Chris Voss’s origin story | 03:12–04:47 | | Defining tactical empathy | 07:41–08:54 | | Empathy as influence, not manipulation | 15:40–16:47 | | Trump, negotiation, and empathy | 16:47–24:02 | | Performance review negotiation tips | 28:46–30:10 | | Personal loss and failed negotiations| 32:34–36:50 | | The problem with compromise | 38:14–39:59 |

Tone & Approach

The conversation is candid, intellectual, and often humorous, with Voss’s practicality and self-deprecating tone matching Marchese’s skeptical, probing journalistic style. The discussion moves fluidly from heady concepts to practical “how-to” advice and poignant personal reflections, making negotiation relatable and human.

For New Listeners

This episode is packed with actionable advice, memorable stories, and a fresh perspective on the power dynamics of life—from world diplomacy to asking for a raise—filtered through the lens of empathy. Voss doesn’t shy away from critiquing both himself and the wider cultural landscape, making this a must-listen for anyone interested in power, persuasion, or personal growth.