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The Interview
Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
00:54:02
The Senate minority leader discusses the backlash to his vote on the Republican spending bill, how he sees his role within the party and his new book.
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- [00:03]
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- [00:31]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Book a test drive@polestar.com hi everyone, it's Lulu. Before we start the show, I have a little news about the interview. You've probably heard ads during our show talking about how quality journalism is worth paying for. We hope you agree. And maybe you've even heard hosts of other New York Times podcasts asking you to subscribe to their show. Well, now it's my turn. Starting this week, we're asking you, our wonderful listeners, to subscribe to the New York Times. If you do, you'll get full access to every episode of our show and all the other New York Times shows on Apple, Podcasts and Spotify. Sometimes there'll even be special content for subscribers. If you're already an eligible Time subscriber, you'll just need to log into your subscription to get access to all of that content. If you don't subscribe, you'll still be able to hear the latest episodes of the Interview, but the full archive will only be available to Time subscribers. We at the Interview genuinely hope you will become a subscriber not just because you want to listen to all of your favorite episodes whenever you want, but also because you believe that what we're doing is worth supporting, and because you want to keep listening to the conversations we host as much as we want to keep making them for you. So that's our big news. You can go to nytimes.com podcasts to learn more. Enjoy the show, and thanks as always for listening. From the New York Times, this is the Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. I spoke to Senator Chuck Schumer of New York twice last week in what turned out to be quite a week for the Senate minority leader. In our first conversation, we talked about a lot of the direction of his party, how Democrats are communicating their opposition to President Trump, and also, on a more personal note, his fears about the rise of antisemitism in America. Schumer's written a new book on that topic. It's called Antisemitism in America A Warning. It's part history, part memoir, and in it he tracks the long record of prejudice against Jews in the world and its recent surge. Here at home. That was Monday. When we spoke again on Saturday afternoon, it was after an extraordinary few days in Congress where Democrats had to decide whether or not to vote for a Republican federal spending bill or allow a government shutdown. House Democrats had voted in near unanimity against the bill. Schumer initially said that he would as well. But in a shocking about face on Friday, he joined Republicans, and it passed. The aftermath has been brutal and led to open warfare in the party and questions about Schumer's future as its leader. So when I called him back, we had a lot to discuss. Here are my two conversations with Senator Chuck Schumer. Senator Schumer, in your book, you write that you rarely faced antisemitism when you were growing up in Brooklyn. What was the moment that you felt that things changed in this country that made you want to write the book now?
- [03:43]
Chuck Schumer
So I was born in 1950, and for the first 50 years, it was sort of what you might call the golden Medina, the golden age for Jewish people, not only in America, but forever. Cause we had never seen such acceptance. We were accepted in ways we never thought. I was so proud when I was, I guess, about 12 years old that Sandy Koufax, a Jewish pitcher, not a scientist or a teacher, didn't play ball on Yom Kippur. And that made us so proud. I experienced a little anti Semitism. There was a moment, for instance, when I was 8 years old and we were driving home from my grandma's house and someone rolled down the window and said to my nice, decent father, you fucking Jew. I think of that almost every week. But it didn't happen very much. And the Jewish people, all the kinds of discrimination that we had seen. Jews couldn't work here. Jews couldn't do that. Even the sort of innuendos went away. And there was one reason above all. The Holocaust hung over a curtain, not only for Jewish people, but, of course, us. We always thought about it. I get a little emotional. People on my block, little older ladies, would come and roll up their sleeves and show us the numbers on their arms that the concentration camp made them do because they were just a number, you know, probably scheduled to die. Okay, when did that change? It began changing in the beginning of the 21st century. And what I've written in the book is when things get bad or a little rough, that's when antisemitism sort of bubbles up and then can get worse. Connor Cruz O'Brien, the great Irish poet, said, antisemitism is a light sleeper. So in 2001, for the first time after 9 11, we saw these conspiracy theories. Oh, the Jews did it all, the Jews evacuated the building, et cetera. But okay, it was not good. But it didn't lead to a huge spread of antisemitism. 2008 got a little worse because of the financial crisis and the international conspiracy. And there were all kinds of theories. George Soros, 30 years earlier, they never would have dared use George Soros as the sort of way to talk about the international conspiracy because he was Jewish and cause of the Holocaust. But it was October 7th that changed it all. And all of a sudden, antisemitism explodes in ways we've never seen. And overt antisemitism. Jewish B being called Zionist bakeries and rocks thrown through their windows, people who wore yarmulkes or Jewish stars being screamed at, yelled at, vilified, even punched and cursed. All the kinds of things that we had not seen in America for a very long time. And it shocked us. For the first time, Jews I know I'm part of this generation, started saying, oh, God, maybe it could happen here. No one thought it would happen here, but for the first time, the thought, maybe it could happen here. And as the highest ranking Jewish elected official, not only now, but ever in America, I felt an obligation to do what I could to combat this rise in antisemitism. So I felt I had to write the book. I had to write the book and hopefully it'll do some good.
- [07:11]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I'm also not sure that everyone understands the important relationship between Jews and the United States itself. What did you want people to understand about the way American Jews feel about their place here and the way that that's changing?
- [07:24]
Chuck Schumer
Yeah, okay, very good question. That's your job.
- [07:28]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
So I appreciate the endorsement.
- [07:33]
Chuck Schumer
I think the American people think the Jews have had it very good, and we have. You know, I used to say when I was younger, oh, America's been so good to the Jews, and the Jews have been so good to America. The Jewish values and the American values are a very good mix and potent combination and have yielded a lot of success for the Jewish people. But I think people don't realize how fragile we think that success can be because of our history through the generations. You know, the Jewish holidays are all about escaping being killed. There's a joke. How do you sum up the Jewish holidays in three sentences? They tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat. I don't know if I wrote that in my book.
- [08:25]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I hope I did write. You did write it in your book, but it's true. It is a very good summation of Jewish holidays. You know, we seem to be at a moment in American life where issues of identity have become very charged. When you were entering politics, how did you navigate how much to make Jewishness part of your brand and your life?
- [08:47]
Chuck Schumer
Not that much. Jewishness was always part of me. People know I'm Jewish. You know, when a new candidate comes to me and says, what's your advice? They say, my best advice is be yourself. The public may not know the difference between your education platform and your opponents, but they can smell it phony a mile away. And then I say, I'm from Brooklyn. Sometimes it helps me, sometimes it hurts me. But I know one thing. If I tried not to be from Brooklyn, I'd be worse than whatever I am. Well, that's a synonym for Jewish. So I was always Jewish, and I enjoyed telling the stories of my family to my caucus and things like that. But it was never that vital to my career. And when I ran in 1998, I would go to upstate. You know, before that, I was from Brooklyn and Queens. I was wondering, how would I be accepted as somebody who was obviously Jewish? Although I didn't go talk about it a lot, I was. I was. It was very gratifying, you know, very little antisemitism. And when I got to Congress, the same. There was some antisemitism. One of the senior guys, when I got on the Judiciary Committee, said, schumer, welcome to the Judiciary Committee. So there was some of that.
- [10:04]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Who was that?
- [10:05]
Chuck Schumer
Can't say. He's dead. He's from Texas. That's all I'll say. You can figure it out. But it was not the thing that I was most known for in any way at all.
- [10:17]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
You just mentioned this idea of inauthenticity when you were talking about recruiting. And you wrote that in the book, you said, voters can smell inauthenticity the way bloodhounds track assent.
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Chuck Schumer
Yeah.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
And it did bring to mind the situation Democrats find themselves in at the moment. Do Democrats have an authenticity problem?
- [10:42]
Chuck Schumer
I don't think we have an authenticity problem. We have a real direction now. I feel good about it. It's this. First, you gotta look at who the Democratic Party is and who the Republican Party is, who they really are. We are the party of working people. We feel that very, very strongly. That's who we have always been. The Republican Party is a dramatic contrast to that. In the last 20 or 30 years, in my judgment, they have been taken over by a cabal of greedy, very wealthy People and their whole goal is to reduce taxes, cut their own taxes even though they're extremely rich, and get rid of any government regulation.
- [11:26]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
No, that's not how the American people views the Democratic Party right now.
- [11:31]
Chuck Schumer
That's where we're moving. That's where we have to move. So the contrast is real. What are we saying? And this is not just Chuck Schumer. I've talked to my whole caucus. I've talked to Hakeem in his caucus. I've talked to Martin, the new head of the dnc. I've talked to some of the others. It's sort of a simple. It's a simple little phrase. Donald Trump is making the middle class pay for tax cuts for billionaires. And then you can add things to it. Is making the middle class pay for tax cuts for billionaires by cutting your health care, your Medicaid, by adding in tariffs and raising your prices by cutting education so your kids don't get an education. That has a number of, I think, virtues.
- [12:17]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I've heard this from Democrats before, though. This isn't new. I mean, I think that that is something that has always been the rallying cry of Democrats against Republicans.
- [12:29]
Chuck Schumer
Correct. But it unifies us in my caucus. From Bernie to Fetterman, everyone on each believes in this second. The public understands it. 80% of the public doesn't like tax cuts for billionaires to hurt the middle class. 60% of Republicans. It's true. So what happened? Because you asked, that's your question? Well, we think we always cared. I'm sorry, we always cared about the working people. But in the last few years, while we did a lot for working people, here's what we didn't do. We can tell people about it. We thought just by legislating people would know about it. They don't.
- [13:11]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I am glad you have brought this up. What I'm hearing you say is that you need to get back to the original message the Democrats have had.
- [13:19]
Chuck Schumer
Yes.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
There is a sense, though, that whatever messaging Democrats are doing right now is either too little, too late, or to use a little bit of Internet speak, a little cringe. I mean, I've noticed a discernible increase in the way party leadership, including you, is attempting to use social media since the election.
- [13:38]
Chuck Schumer
Yeah.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
With more direct to camera videos, more explainers. It feels, though, that it's coming from consultants. I use that word again. Authenticity. Is it?
- [13:48]
Chuck Schumer
No, we feel it, but we never talk. We talked about legislation and passing legislation. Now one of the liabilities we have is a lot of the good things That'll come out of this legislation. Take a few years to happen, you know, to build the road, to build the bridge, et cetera. But frankly, when we did talk about it, it worked. We had five battleground states that we had to win in the Senate. Okay. And every week I met with each of the senators about implementing. We called it implementation. Not to the. That would be. If we said that to the public, that would be a bad idea. But it was a concept and they did. So Jackie Rosen was in Las Vegas saying that infrastructure bill, I am now getting you the thing we've dreamed of in Las Vegas in Nevada for a long time. Las Vegas has about 3/4 of their population. A high speed rail from Los Angeles to Las Vegas so people could get on the train, spend their money in Las Vegas and go home. Tammy Baldwin delivered this bridge that Northern Wisconsin had been dying for for 30 or 40 years.
- [14:53]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
All these things helped them win.
- [14:54]
Chuck Schumer
We won. We won in four of those five. I don't think the presidential campaign did enough of, and I don't think Democratic Party as a whole did enough of it. We just assumed we were on the side of working people so they would just naturally assume it and it didn't happen. We lost them because they didn't think we cared about them enough. We always did care about them, but we didn't convey it. So now, as you said, we're learning to convey in different ways. I put Cory Booker and Tina Smith in charge of the social media. We had like 60 influencers at the State of the Union. And again, learning how to communicate. Not just Chuck Schumer talking about the legislation we pass, but I brought people there who were affected by what's happening. I brought a veteran and they went on all this social media and according to the people tell me, because I get all these reports, it had millions and millions of views. And the bottom line is, I think the party as a whole neglected how the social media has become so much more important. But we're learning it quickly and we're doing it much better and we're gonna do it better still.
- [15:58]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
As you know, you got a rough ride because of your protests that you had.
- [16:03]
Chuck Schumer
I know that's in the past.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
What did you think about that? Why did that. Whose idea was that?
- [16:10]
Chuck Schumer
It just happened. I got excited. I wanted to tell people I didn't do it right. But it's one day, you know, you can't get. Because a bunch of people in the social media attack you. And most of the attacks on me, even on that were from the right.
- [16:25]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Wing, former Ohio representative Tim Ryan called it depressing, wrote it on X. Is it Saturday Night Live or real life?
- [16:32]
Chuck Schumer
There's always gonna people who take a shot at you. That's how it is. You just gotta move forward.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
I guess it brings in just this wider concern that I've heard from Democratic voters. You know, there's real grief, anxiety, worry. I don't have to tell you that.
- [16:48]
Chuck Schumer
Absolutely.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
And many feel that Democratic leadership are operating with an old playbook.
- [16:55]
Chuck Schumer
I don't think it is. I think first of all, talking about the difference between the two parties is what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to give the contrast and we have a unique opportunity. Now when Trump ran, he could say anything. He said, I'll lower your costs on day one. And once he's not running and he has to govern and he is so enthralled by tax cuts for the billionaires, it gives us an opening to talk to the people who were listening more to Trump before, cuz we didn't talk to them. The negative that Trump is doing a is spreading, but gives us an opportunity to regain the ear of the working people and middle class people so that we can connect with them the way we always used to. And it did succeed in the past. It even succeed even a long time ago. Different media world, of course, but 2005, Nancy and Harry, I was at Harry's side, I was his little lieutenant in those days. We said we're gonna wait for the issue to pounce on and then we're gonna do it every day. George W. Said we're cutting Social Security. They don't change the Republicans. And we pounced and we had huge success.
- [18:06]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
You describe yourself as an institutionalist. You've been a Democratic leader through a period of American politics though where the rules were understood. Politicians on both sides of the aisle operated under mostly agreed upon norms.
- [18:21]
Chuck Schumer
Yes.
- [18:22]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
And I think it's fair to say that that no longer feels true.
- [18:25]
Chuck Schumer
Especially with the Trump people. Absolutely.
- [18:28]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
So are you the right person to lead the party at this moment as someone who basically championed the rules based order, which is now fundamentally unprecedented?
- [18:36]
Chuck Schumer
We have lots of, let me put it this way first, I don't think there's anybody. Well, I think I know how to win seats back in the Senate, which I've proven okay. I proved it in 2005 when we gained. I proved it in two, three, four years ago. They said, you'll never get back the Senate. I said, we're gonna. We won the two seats in Georgia to Everybody's surprise. So my, you know, one of the talents that I have, and I miss some and have some, is how to get the right candidates, get the right campaigns, and win back. And even this year, winning four out of those five seats against big headwinds was trouble. But basically, I'm not the only person, nor should I be. This idea, we need one person. That's a residue when you have a president, we don't. I'm sort of like an orchestra leader, and there's a great deal of talent in the orchestra. And my job is to highlight all those talents and emphasize those talents and get Chris Murphy out on television and get Bernie out doing the rallies and get everyone to talk to their constituencies. So that's my job.
- [19:35]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
All right. I wanna talk a little bit about the Democrats strategy more broadly. Last month, you said in an interview that Trump will screw up.
- [19:44]
Chuck Schumer
Yes. He can't help himself.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
Do you really think, though, that there's something that will move the needle for either Republican legislators or voters? I ask because that feels like a familiar argument against the president. Surely this will be the final straw for.
- [19:58]
Chuck Schumer
There's no final straw. It's a whole. It's all the things he is doing. But let me say this. Last time he was president, which is the closest experience we have with him, admittedly, the world has changed some, particularly on the media side, how it works. We kept pushing and pushing and pushing and chipping away. And when he went below 40% in the polls, the Republican legislators started working with us. He was at 51. He's now at 48. We're gonna keep at it, keep at it, keep at it until he goes below 40. Look, I talk to a lot of these Republican legislators. I've worked with them. Some of them are Trump devotees and advocates and all that, but many of them don't like him, don't respect him, and worry about what he's doing to our country. You know, right now, he's so popular, they can't resist him. I mean, so many of them came to me and said, I don't think Hegseth should be Defense secretary or rfk, should be hhs. But Trump wants him. He won. That's not gonna be the same. The Republicans would like to have some freedom from Trump, but they won't until we bring him down in popularity. That happened with Bush in 2005. It happened with Trump in 2017. When it happens, I am hopeful that our Republican colleagues will resume working with us. And I talk to them. One of the places I told them to go in the gym. You know, when you're on that bike in your shorts, panting away next to a Republican, a lot of the inhibitions come off.
- [21:28]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I'm sure it's not a sight you want to see.
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Chuck Schumer
It's not a sight you want to see.
- [21:35]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Before we move on from this, I do want to ask you about the last election, especially around President Biden's decision to run for a second term.
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Chuck Schumer
Yes.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
Did you know about President Biden's declining faculties before that disastrous debate?
- [21:52]
Chuck Schumer
No. Let me tell you the little. I dealt with Biden and his staff often. And whenever I dealt with him, you know, the right wing was saying, oh, he's law. He's mentally declined. He wasn't. He had rational, good, strong conversations. Did he ramble? From time to time? He's done that when I knew him when he was 45 years old. Did he sometimes forget a name? Who doesn't? But he was fine. I didn't realize. I didn't, because of my dealings with him were just fine. And we worked on many things and had a lot of success. 2022 was regarded as one of the greatest legislative sessions we had. And we did it together, Senate and him, until the debate. And then I realized he couldn't win. Now, I did think the fact that he spoke lower a little bit and he walked slower allowed the right wing to portray him incorrectly as, you know, not competent. But I didn't find that.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
And if you didn't know, why didn't you know? Was it because they were keeping him secluded?
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Chuck Schumer
I can't give you the answer to that. When I dealt with him, he was fine.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
There have been allegations of a cover up. What do you say to those allegations?
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Chuck Schumer
They're just bs. Just bs. There was no cover up.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
I want to come back to your book. That's good, Senator. Jews in America have always been closely allied to the Democratic Party.
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Chuck Schumer
Yes.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
But Trump in this past election clearly saw an opening to win some of them over. And it does seem like the events of the past year and a half have shifted things for American Jews. Do you think the political landscape has changed in any lasting way? When you look at sort of that.
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Chuck Schumer
Alliance, there are different polling numbers, you know, the exit polls, but most of them show the ones that are most reliable show that still, like, you know, a very high percentage, 70, something like that, of the Jews voted Democratic this year. Okay. Some of the more vocal people are on the right. And the Republican Party has made a attempt to make Israel and even antisemitism a political issue. Which is horrible for Israel. I told that to Netanyahu, actually, years ago. Not to make it a political issue, but he did. He embraced Trump and did it. But I do think the progressive values of the Jewish people, the fact that we've been oppressed for so long, we've always had a sympathy for the underdog that doesn't go away. Obviously, with the situation in Israel, there are some people who felt, you know, the Democrats weren't strong enough, but Biden was. He stuck by Israel very strongly. And most everyone recognizes that.
- [24:34]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
And it cost him.
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Chuck Schumer
It cost him a little. I'm not sure how much, but. Okay. I think that basically the rank and file Jewish person who is not that political, you know, no more than anybody else, is fundamentally a Democrat and will stay that way.
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Lulu Garcia Navarro
There is this big debate, though, about where the line is between antisemitism and legitimate criticism of Israel's government. I mean, where is that line for you?
- [25:05]
Chuck Schumer
First, I've criticized the Israeli government.
- [25:08]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I know.
- [25:09]
Chuck Schumer
And I've criticized Netanyahu, as you know. So criticism of Israel and how it conducted the war is not anti Semitic, but it begins to shade over. And it shades over in a bunch of different ways when you use the word Zionist for Jew, you Zionist pig. You mean you Jewish pig. There's an incident on the New York subway, and a bunch of people got on, you know, protesters or whatever, and said, all the Zionists, get off the. Who's a Zionist? Raise your hand, get out of the subway car. When the head of the Brooklyn Museum, who was Jewish, or the chairman of the board, she was. But the Brooklyn Museum had nothing to do with Israel or taking positions on Israel. Her house is smeared in red paint. That's antisemitism. And a lot of the slogans that people use either are or slide into antisemitism. Okay, so from the river to the sea, which is a Hamas expression. Well, what does Hamas believe? People don't pay enough attention to the evilness of Hamas in this whole discussion. What does Hamas believe? That there should be no Jews living in from the Jordan river to the ocean. And their view in their charter, they cite an old Arab proverb. Is that a Jew behind the tree, chop him down and shoot him. So when people say from the river to the sea, it edges on antisemitism, even though some of them may not know it. How about by any means necessary? Does that mean kill any Jew by any means necessary? Okay, and the one that bothers me the most, which I want to take a minute on, is genocide, okay? Genocide. Is described as. This is the definition. A country or some group tries to wipe out a whole race of people, a whole nationality of people. So if Israel was not provoked and just invaded Gaza and shot at random, Palestinians, Gazans, that would be genocide. That's not what happened. In fact, the opposite happened. And Hamas is much closer to genocidal than Israel, even when you have disagreements. And again, I told Netanyahu, you gotta. I told. I said to him what I thought, you gotta reduce the number of casualties and make sure aid gets in and stuff like that. Here is the difficulty. Hamas has a different way of waging warfare, of using innocent Gazans as human shields. And they do. They put rockets in hospitals. They put their military supplies in schools. What is a country supposed to do when rockets are being fired from a school? Sinwar, the head of Hamas who was killed, you know what he said? Dead Palestinians and maimed Palestinians are a necessary sacrifice. His words, According to the Wall Street Journal, which got his documents. So Israel's been in a much more difficult position because of what Hamas did. And it's not that Israel is above criticism. Of course it is not above criticism. I just love Hamas. Well, I just. Hamas is never. Wait, can I just finish? I'm sorry. It matters so much to me. I feel so deeply about it. Sorry.
- [28:28]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
No, please.
- [28:31]
Chuck Schumer
Hamas made it much. And no one blames Hamas. I mean, the news reports every day for a while showed Palestinians being hurt and killed. And, you know, I see the pictures of a little Palestinian boy without a leg, or I saw one sticks in my head. There was a little girl, like 11, 12, crying because her parents were both killed. I ache for that. But on the news reports, they never mention that so much of the time, Hamas used the Palestinian people as human shields. And so when these protesters come and accuse Israel of genocide, I said, what about Hamas? They don't even want to talk about Hamas. Wait, one final thing, okay? This is very important. Jewish people were subject, at least in my judgment, to the worst genocide ever. I put in the book, on the day they got Kiev, The Nazis asked 33,000 Jews to line up by a trench strip naked, and they shot them all dead every day. Auschwitz killed 20,000 people. My family was killed from a place called Chortkiv in Western Ukraine. And this was vicious and horrible. And it is vicious of the opponents to call it genocide, criticize it for sure. Say Israel went too far for sure to use. And you know what it does? It increases antisemitism because they're making Israel and the Jewish people look like monsters, which they are not.
- [29:59]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I can see how passionately you feel about this issue.
- [30:02]
Chuck Schumer
You know, my great grandmother was the wife of a well known scholar. In short, Geef. The Nazis rolled in in 1941 and said to the Jewish people of Chortkiv, gather in the town square. And then my great grandmother, who had a house on the town square, they said, you greater family should come to the porch. About 35 people from age 85 to 3 months came to the porch. The Nazis in front of all the Jews in Chortkiv said, you're coming with us. She said, we're not moving. They machine gunned every one of them down. I was in China on the night of October 7th, and the Israeli ambassador came in and told me what happened in the kibbutza be are and they took like a hundred from the elderly to the children on a stage and shot them all dead. So, yes, it's very emotional. And to almost all Jewish people, we all have relatives and we know about this has happened again. Genocide is a vicious, vicious word to use.
- [31:02]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I will say it's a word that a UN special committee has used.
- [31:06]
Chuck Schumer
Please. The UN has been anti Israel, anti Semitically against Israel. Double standard. Moynihan was my idol. He became famous when in 1976 they tried to pass a resolution, Zionism is racism. To say that the Jewish people should not have a state when every other people should have a state is antisemitism the old double standard? Ipso facto. And the international organizations, I have no faith in them being fair. These same international organizations, when horrible things go in, in Darfur or China, or whether they look the other way.
- [31:45]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I'm curious how you think about how protests then should be addressed, considering the context of what you just said. The Trump administration just announced they're pulling $400 million in funding from Columbia University, giving the reason as, quote, relentless violence, intimidation and anti Semitic harassment. I'm wondering what you make of that.
- [32:06]
Chuck Schumer
Colombia did not do enough. I criticized them and believe me, I believe in free speech. I believe in the right to protest. As you read in my book, I started my career protesting the Vietnam War. I say to some people, if I were your age, you know, the younger people protesting, I'd be protesting something. So I get that and I love it. And it's about America protest. But when it shades over to violence and antisemitism, the colleges had to do something and a lot of them didn't do enough. They shrugged their shoulders, looked the other way, et cetera. Columbia among them. Okay, so what did they do? They took away $400 million. I'm trying to find out where that $400 million, what they took away. Are they taking away money from cancer research at Columbia, you know, at New York Presbyterian, which is part of Columbia, or Alzheimer's, which are doing good things. What is the $400 million? It could be hurting all students, students who go there who have nothing to do with the protests, students who might have protested peacefully, or Jewish students who were victims of some of those protests. So I think we have to see. My worry is that this 400 million was just done, in typical Trump fashion, indiscriminately, without looking at its effect.
- [33:27]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
And what do you make of what happened over the weekend when ICE arrested Mahmoud Khalil, a Columbia graduate who is Palestinian, an activist and a green card holder, who was one of the few participants in last year's campus protest to identify himself publicly? And apparently, Trump has made good on his campaign pledge and is set to deport him because of his participation.
- [33:52]
Chuck Schumer
Look, I don't know all the details yet. They're trying to come out, and there'll be a court case which will determine it. If he broke the law, he should be deported. If he didn't break the law and just peacefully protested, he should not be deported. It's plain and simple.
- [34:03]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
What does breaking the law mean to you?
- [34:05]
Chuck Schumer
Well, in this context, you know, it's a legal issue, and it's what are Colombia's rules, and what does it mean breaking them, and what are the legal issues? Rules about what did he do? I don't know what the charge against him is. So it's a little premature to make a decision, except if he didn't break the law, he should not be deported. If he broke the law, he should.
- [34:26]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
That sounds easy, but when we're talking about the right to protest, which you were a part of, breaking the law, not breaking the law, those things can be weaponized for political purposes. You can arrest political protesters, put them in prison, but they're actually taking part in what is their constitutionally protected right?
- [34:47]
Chuck Schumer
Well, if they're just protesting and they're arrested, they shouldn't be arrested for protesting as long as they go by the rules. Look, I get protests in front of my house all the time, but they have to have a permit and they have to obey certain rules. There are rules, but the bottom line is we have courts, and Khalil will go to court, and I have a lot of faith that the judge will give a fair ruling. It's not the Trump administration, it's an independent federal judge.
- [35:16]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I want to ask about your own state, which has been seen as a bit of a bellwether these days for some of the political currents in the country. As you know, this past election, Trump improved on his 2020 numbers by six points in New York State, including a seven point shift in New York City. What do you make of that drift?
- [35:35]
Chuck Schumer
I think that there is a feeling in New York on certain issues that New York is not doing a good enough job. Crime, now, crime is actually lower. But I talk to lots of people, they go on the subway, and almost inevitably there's someone there who's not hurting people, but disruptive and frightening them because they read in the paper that some people were hurt, you know, the pushing of people onto the tracks. And so I think that above all, I think that influenced New Yorkers. New Yorkers are willing to put up with a lot to live in New York, but they want to be safe. And I think that's the number one reason we lost a percentage vote.
- [36:18]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Throughout your career, you've talked about this fictional couple.
- [36:20]
Chuck Schumer
Yes. The Baileys.
- [36:21]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
The Baileys. Joe and Eileen. And you think of them as sort of your representative voter constituent. You said the Baileys voted for Trump in 2016. They split Trump, Biden in 2020. I'm wondering who they voted for in 2024.
- [36:35]
Chuck Schumer
Probably voted for Trump. They probably voted for Trump. But if you asked them why, I think they'd say above all, crime. Long island. You know, I think they'd say that.
- [36:46]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
So what do you gotta do to get them back?
- [36:48]
Chuck Schumer
Well, I think there are real efforts being made by the city and state to reduce the level of crime. It's gotta be more, I mean, little things.
- [36:57]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
There's some cultural issues, aren't there? I mean, there's also.
- [36:59]
Chuck Schumer
There are some, but less so in New York, less so in New York. When I used to advise candidates who were running for mayor, you know, Democratic candidate, I'd say if you can assure New Yorkers they're gonna be safe, it'll almost ensure your election. Cause on all the other issues, New Yorkers are Democrats.
- [37:16]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Well, it brings me to Mayor Eric Adams, the embattled mayor of New York City. He was indicted last year on federal charges of bribery and fraud, among other things. February, the Trump administration directed prosecutors to dismiss the charges against him in an apparent quid pro quo leading to these extraordinary series of resignations at the justice department and the U.S. attorney's office. Do you think Eric Adams should resign?
- [37:44]
Chuck Schumer
I'm not getting into the mayoral race. I know you're gonna ask questions about the characters in the Mary Roll race.
- [37:49]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
I am.
- [37:49]
Chuck Schumer
But I have had a tradition that has served me well. Don't mix in. In primaries in New York. I haven't. And this will be interpreted as mixing in. In the primary. So I'm not gonna answer questions about people running well.
- [38:02]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
But Eric Adams is a sitting mayor, so this isn't about a primary. This is about someone who is going through very serious allegations against him and the Trump administration getting involved in that.
- [38:13]
Chuck Schumer
I get it, and it's your home state, but if we weren't close to a primary, I might give you another opinion, but I'm not going to give you an opinion on that.
- [38:22]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
All right, let me ask you this.
- [38:24]
Chuck Schumer
Go ahead.
- [38:25]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
About Andrew Cuomo, just in this way. He obviously is another very controversial figure in Democratic politics in your state, and he recently entered the New York City mayoral race. So it brings up a philosophical question about his candidacy, which is not really about him, but the kind of politician that he is.
- [38:45]
Chuck Schumer
You're not quitting?
- [38:46]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
No, because I think there's a wider issue here, which is he's polling far ahead of the rest of the pack at this point. And I wonder what you think his popularity says about what kind of Democrat voters can get behind right now. I mean, do Democrats need to run candidates that are more like Trump?
- [39:06]
Chuck Schumer
Let's see what happens in the election. That's all I'm gonna say in the primary. All right, look, I think. Look, without characterizing any of the candidates.
- [39:17]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Yeah.
- [39:18]
Chuck Schumer
I don't. I think that safety is the biggest issue. I think the other issues. And I don't think New Yorkers are anti immigrant. You know, I mean, people may disagree with what. How. How things were handled initially. I don't think New Yorkers are.
- [39:37]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Of.
- [39:37]
Chuck Schumer
The view that let the very wealthy succeed and everybody else will succeed. I don't think you need candidates like Trump. In fact, I think Trump will be the candidates who support Trump in the next election, the gubernatorial in 2026. There's none in a Democratic primary, so we can't talk about. The city are gonna lose because of Trump's support. Donald Trump will be a detriment to candidates who have embraced him. They will have to embrace him because the Republican primary and their plutocracy is so powerful in this party. But it will not serve them well. It'll serve them poorly.
- [40:13]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
You know, I've heard you and I've heard other Democratic leaders talk about the next election as if it's just gonna Be another election like any other election. But my question is there has been all of this discussion about Trump auguring in the end of democracy. We have seen all these measures being taken by the Trump administration, you know, that are pushing back democratic norms in this country.
- [40:41]
Chuck Schumer
Yes.
- [40:41]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
So I am wondering if you think it is going to be business.
- [40:44]
Chuck Schumer
I worry about this. This is a very serious. When I say we'll win the election, I'm assuming democracy stays, but that we have to fight to make sure that happens. Let me just say a few things. I am worried about that. I think that Trump is destroying norms that have preserved our democracy, probably for centuries, certainly for decades, and he's destroying them. And he doesn't care what is our best bulwark. It's the courts. And one of the things which is proving very, very good is we put in 235 new judges, and they're now hearing so many of the cases that attorneys general, private citizens, unions and others are bringing. We've had a preliminary success in that we filed 100 cases. We have one with TRO is usually not a final determination, temporary restraining order. About 87% of them, they have had. Just this week, a judge threw out the cuts to NIH.
- [41:43]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Are they going to respect those court orders?
- [41:46]
Chuck Schumer
That is the $64,000. So let us say the courts uphold this. And one of the people who will determine that more than any other is probably John Roberts, who is very conservative, far, far to the right for my taste. I didn't vote for him. But I do believe beliefs in the courts in terms of somewhat of their, have to be obeyed and respected. And so I think even at the highest level, if you get the Supreme Court upholding the law, it will matter. What if Trump keeps going? That's the question everybody's asking. And I worry about this. I think a lot. I wake up sometimes once at 2, 3 in the morning thinking about this. I believe this. And it's a little bit in concert with what I've said to you before. I believe Republican senators on this issue will stand up. I've talked to some of them. About 5 or 6 have said publicly they will work to uphold the courts and to uphold the law if Trump tries to break it. And we can do that legislatively if we have to. That's my hope. That's what we gotta work towards. And I think there's a decent chance that that would happen, particularly if Trump three months from now is less popular. And then if Trump goes to the highest level and violates every, you know, all the court orders. I will work really hard to get our republic. This is the one place above all where our Republican colleagues should and have to stand up to him.
- [43:17]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
You know, I've covered a lot of countries going through Democratic backsliding all over the world, and it's a very difficult process to roll back once it is underway. And I've seen how often opposition parties fail to recognize until it's too late that they might have been made irrelevant. And I wonder if you think that the Democratic Party might be making that mistake.
- [43:44]
Chuck Schumer
No, I think we're fighting very hard on every front and initially we've had some successes. But we gotta keep at it and we gotta be open to new suggestions and ways to do it. But I think what we're doing is working so far.
- [44:03]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Following that conversation, it was a tumultuous week in D.C. schumer voted with Republicans for a federal spending bill to the surprise and widespread fury of his own party. After the break, I call him back to ask about it.
- [44:35]
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- [45:46]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Hi, Senator Schumer.
- [45:48]
Lulu, nice to talk to you again.
- [45:51]
Senator, a lot has happened since we spoke on Monday and you've been at the center of most of it. In our first conversation, you said you had a plan going forward to fight Republicans. But then only a few days later, it looks like your own party is in a civil war. Do you think that you made the wrong choice?
- [46:09]
Let me, Lulu, say this. I don't. I think it was a very, very difficult decision between two bad a partisan Republican CR and a shutdown that Musk and Trump wanted for me the shutdown of the government would just be devastating and far worse than the Republican cr. Let me explain. A shutdown would shut down all government agencies and it would solely be up to Trump and Doge and Musk what to open again because they could determine what was essential. So their goal of shutting down, of decimating the whole federal government, of cutting agency after agency after agency would occur under a shutdown. It would be devastating. Two days from now on a shutdown, they could say, well, snap. Food stamps for kids is not essential. It's gone. All veterans offices in rural areas are gone. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, they're not essential. We're cutting them back. So it'd be horrible. The damage they can do under a shutdown is much worse than any other damage that they could do.
- [47:17]
Is it just.
- [47:18]
It can last for. Wait, let me just finish, Lulu. It can last forever. There is no off ramp. One of the Republican senators told us, we go to a shutdown, it's going to be there for six months, nine months, a year. And by then their goal of destroying the federal government would be gone. And finally, one final point here, and that is that right now, under the present law or under the cr, you can go to court and contest an executive order to shut something down. Under a shutdown, the executive branch has sole powers. So in conclusion, I knew this would be an unpopular decision. I knew that. I know politics. But I felt so strongly as a leader that I couldn't let this happen. Because weeks and months from now, things would be far worse than they even are today. That I had to do what I had to do.
- [48:11]
Can I just ask you about the tactic here? Because the choice that you made to vote with the Republicans, isn't that an argument to get rid of the filibuster? You wanted to keep it when you were in the majority, but if you're not gonna use it in the minority, then what's point of it?
- [48:29]
The point here again, I'll repeat what I said would be how devastating a shutdown would be. Just think a month from now if half the federal workers.
- [48:38]
But I'm asking about the use of the filibuster.
- [48:41]
No, but the bottom line is if we would have. Not if the filibuster would have been used and the government shut down, the devastation would be terrible. Terrible. You see, we've had government shutdowns before, but never against such nihilists, such anti government fanatics as Trump, Doge Musk. They've given us a playbook. By the way, Vote already has written what he wants to shut down. If he got a shutdown. Trump wanted a shutdown. Musk wanted a shutdown. Ask yourself why.
- [49:13]
When I spoke to you earlier, I asked you if you were the right leader for the second Trump term, and you made the case that you were. And you said, and I'm quoting you here, I'm sort of like an orchestra leader. But with this vote, it seems you've lost the confidence of many of your players. I mean, I mean, it is from Nancy Pelosi to Alexandria Ocasio Cortez who have expressed genuine fury at this.
- [49:36]
Well, let me just say, look, in my caucus, for instance, I knew there would be divisions. There are. But we have respect for one another. We each respect that. Each of us has made the decision because we thought it was right. And we are all unified in going after Trump. What I mentioned to you in the earlier broadcast, making sure people know.
- [49:58]
But it's how you go after Trump and.
- [50:00]
Go ahead, go ahead.
- [50:01]
The complaints are about precisely your leadership. I mean, there has been reporting that you were not in regular touch with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries leading up to your decision, that it took many in your caucus by surprise that there didn't seem to be a plan. That is what, more than anything, seems to be the case that many in your caucus are making against how this was handled.
- [50:26]
Okay. For weeks and months, we had said a shutdown is awful. And by the way, every Democrat, no matter how they voted, wanted to make sure there was no shutdown. We thought there could be a bipartisan plan. And I talked to Hakeem regularly during this period. We didn't think that Johnson could get all his votes. He did. When it came to the Senate on Tuesday, our pope was that Patty Murray could negotiate with the Republican Senate and get that 30 day cr. A bipartisan plan. She couldn't. So we were faced with two awful choices. The choice has been made. But I think the whole Democratic Party is united on what I mentioned in the earlier broadcast showing how bad Trump is in every way. Organizing. We're organizing this week and next week in Republican districts. We're having rallies to not give tax breaks to millionaires. And we're succeeding. We're succeeding, Lulu. We're bringing his numbers down.
- [51:24]
Well, Hakeem Jeffries seemed to throw you under the bus on Friday. He was asked directly if he thought you should be replaced as leader, and he very pointedly refused to answer that question. Have you spoken to Jeffries since the vote?
- [51:38]
I speak to Jeffries regularly.
- [51:40]
Have you spoken to.
- [51:41]
He And I have a good relationship. We speak all the time.
- [51:45]
But have you spoken since the vote?
- [51:46]
Chuck Schumer
I want to say this.
- [51:47]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Have you spoken since the vote?
- [51:48]
No, we haven't spoken since the vote, but we speak all the time. We speak regularly, and we have a good, close relationship.
- [51:57]
Senator, you were crucial in getting President Joe Biden to step down. Do you think it's time for you to do the same?
- [52:07]
Let me say this. There is spirited disagreements on which was the right vote. But as I said, I think we have mutual respect in our caucus, and we are all united, no matter how people voted on this vote, to continue fighting Trump. We are a united and strong caucus fighting against Trump. We disagreed on this issue, but that doesn't diminish in any way how we're going to fight every step of the way against Trump. And I believe that we're going to have some real successes.
- [52:41]
Seth Kelly
Okay.
- [52:42]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
There is reporting that some Democrats are now privately urging Alexandria Ocasio Cortez to consider a primary run against you. It now seems likely that she or someone else will primary you in New York in 2028. Do you think the base has your back after this? Because ultimately they'll decide who becomes New York's next senator.
- [53:03]
Yeah. That's a long time away. I am focused on bringing Trump's numbers down, his popularity down, exposing what he has done to America and what he will do. That's my focus right now, and that's what I'm focusing on. 24. 7. It's, you know, three years from now is a long way to speculate. I believe that my hard work against Trump will pay off.
- [53:29]
Senator Schumer, thank you so much for talking to me on a Saturday.
- [53:33]
Nice to talk to you, Lulu. Bye. Bye.
- [53:39]
That's Senator Chuck Schumer. His book is called Anti Semitism in a Warning. It's publishing on March 18th. Since our first conversation, Senator Schumer has released a statement about Mahmoud Khalil, writing that if the Trump administration's Department of Homeland Security can't show that there are criminal charges against Khalil, they are violating the First Amendment and should let him go. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Reed Epstein, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing. Follow or subscribe to the Interview. Wherever you get your podcasts to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com the interview and you can email us anytime@the interviewytimes.com Next week, David talks to Dr. Lindsay Gibson, author of the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, which has gone viral on social media.
- [55:01]
Seth Kelly
A lot of people have a lot of problem when they first hear that idea about their parent. They begin to hedge and balk at calling their parent that because they're just so accustomed to giving their parent the benefit of the doubt and Lulu Garcia.
- [55:21]
Lulu Garcia Navarro
Navarro and this is the interview from the New York Times.
- [55:41]
Chuck Schumer
This podcast is supported by NetSuite.
- [55:44]
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- [56:07]
Chuck Schumer
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