Denzel Washington Has Finally Found His Purpose

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Denzel Washington Has Finally Found His Purpose"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Interview
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Description: Conversations with the world’s most fascinating people. Each week, hosts David Marchese and Lulu Garcia-Navarro engage with influential figures across various fields, exploring their motivations, identities, and impacts on the world. New episodes every Saturday.
• Episode: Denzel Washington Has Finally Found His Purpose
• Release Date: February 8, 2025

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1. Introduction: Setting the Tone

The episode opens with host David Marchese reflecting on Denzel Washington's illustrious career, highlighting his authoritative performances and enigmatic characters that have cemented his status as a Hollywood legend. Marchese contrasts two conversations with Washington: the first conducted remotely during the Los Angeles fires, which felt disconnected, and the second in person at a Manhattan rehearsal space, where the dialogue flowed more naturally.

Notable Quote:

“There’s something deep down inside his characters that feels unassailable, a little enigmatic, and theirs alone.” — David Marchese [00:32]

2. Faith and Spiritual Journey

A significant portion of the conversation delves into Washington's recent baptism and pursuit of a minister's license. He shares a poignant moment driving through Harlem, leading him to a church his mother once attended, which ignited his renewed faith.

Notable Quotes:

“I went for a ride one day and I decided to go up to Harlem... and whatever it was, weeks later, months later, I got baptized.” — Denzel Washington [02:32]

“It was prophesied in my youth that I would travel the world and preach or speak to millions of people.” — Denzel Washington [03:22]

Washington discusses the prophecy from his youth, emphasizing how his acting career served as a platform for his spiritual mission, blending his faith with his work in the arts.

3. Acting, Theater, and the Role of Othello

Washington expresses his deep connection to theater, contrasting it with film. He reveals his excitement about reprising the role of Othello after 48 years, now collaborating with Jake Gyllenhaal and directed by Kenny Leon. He underscores the unique immediacy and communal experience of theater, stating that it offers him the greatest joy compared to acting in films.

Notable Quotes:

“Theater is an actor's medium. Once the curtain goes up, it's between us and the audience.” — Denzel Washington [07:14]

“It's been 48 years between I played Othello at 22, and I'm going back at 70.” — Denzel Washington [06:28]

4. Family and Personal Life

Washington opens up about his family life, particularly the impact of fatherhood on his perspective. He discusses the challenges of providing for his children, educating them, and maintaining a balance between his career and personal responsibilities. Additionally, he touches upon his wife Pauletta's artistic endeavors and how her discipline as a concert pianist has influenced his appreciation for the arts.

Notable Quotes:

“Having children changed my perspective. It changed everything.” — Denzel Washington [10:48]

“She's an artist. I never looked at myself that way, and I just learned a lot from her.” — Denzel Washington [14:15]

5. Navigating the Business of Acting

The conversation shifts to the business side of acting. Washington candidly discusses the financial realities actors face, highlighting how agents, lawyers, and managers significantly reduce an actor's earnings. He distinguishes between roles chosen for artistic merit versus those taken for monetary reasons, reflecting on his choices between films like "Malcolm X" and action movies like "Virtuosity."

Notable Quotes:

“A dollar is about 38 cents. And that's what it is.” — Denzel Washington [12:10]

“I've taken every job for money. There's no job where I went... I'm just so glad to be an actor.” — Denzel Washington [12:16]

6. Personal Insights and Reflections

Washington shares deep philosophical insights, often tying his faith into his worldview. He discusses the nature of evil, free will, and the importance of faith over mere understanding. These reflections are interspersed with humor and personal anecdotes, showcasing his multifaceted personality.

Notable Quotes:

“Believe in something greater than yourself. Sometimes you just have to have faith in things bigger than our ability to understand them.” — Denzel Washington [26:25]

“Evil is an opportunity for good to take advantage of it.” — Denzel Washington [25:33]

7. Challenges During the Interview

The interview itself presents a unique dynamic, with Washington playfully challenging Marchese's questions and encouraging a more expansive dialogue. This meta-conversation highlights Washington's comfort and authenticity, even in a potentially awkward interviewing scenario.

Notable Quotes:

“Maybe I should ask you a question.” — Denzel Washington [17:26]

“Don’t deflect. Ask me.” — Denzel Washington [22:29]

8. Conclusion and Future Prospects

As the episode wraps up, Washington offers words of wisdom about faith, understanding, and embracing the unknown. He reiterates the importance of believing in something beyond oneself and reflects on his ongoing journey of faith and artistry.

Notable Quote:

“Believe in something greater than yourself. Sometimes you just have to have faith in things bigger than our ability to understand them.” — Denzel Washington [26:25]

Final Thoughts

"Denzel Washington Has Finally Found His Purpose" provides an intimate glimpse into the actor's spiritual awakening, his enduring passion for theater, and his contemplative approach to life and art. Washington's candidness, combined with his philosophical musings, offers listeners a profound understanding of what drives one of Hollywood's most esteemed figures.

Remember to follow or subscribe to "The Interview" on your preferred podcast platform to stay updated with future conversations.

Transcript

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[David Marchese]

From the New York Times. This is the interview. I'm David Marchese. So many of Denzel Washington's greatest performances have been defined by a riveting sense of authority, an absence of any pandering or need to be liked. There's something deep down inside his characters that feels unassailable, a little enigmatic, and theirs alone, the same steely qualities that have helped Washington become a legend also, as I learned firsthand, make for an unusual and unusually complicated conversationalist. The first of our two discussions was done remotely. He was at a photo studio in Los Angeles as the fires were still raging there and I was home in New Jersey. This discussion felt as if it were being conducted entirely on his terms. Or let me put it like this, I didn't feel like we ever quite figured out how to connect. The second time we talked a little over a week later, things were different. I met him in person at a space in Manhattan where he was rehearsing for a rare Broadway appearance. He's playing Othello in a new production that co stars Jake Gyllenhaal as Iago and is directed by the Tony Award winner Kenny Leon. I can't really say why with any certainty, but things just felt easier with him this time. What I do know, though, is that after it was all over, I was left with an experience just as memorable as one of his performances. Here's my conversation with Denzel Washing Hello, I'm David.

[Denzel Washington]

How are you? David Denzel, nice to meet you. Pleasure.

[David Marchese]

Just to start, I saw that right at the end of last year you were baptized and earned your minister's license.

[Denzel Washington]

I got baptized and I have to now take courses to obtain a license. But I did get baptized, but I'm not an ordained minister.

[David Marchese]

Can you tell me about the decision to go through that process at this point in your life?

[Denzel Washington]

I went for a ride one day and I decided to go up to Harlem. I was in Manhattan. I decided to get my car and drive up To Harlem and riding around, thinking of places where my mother lived. And I stopped in front of the church that my mother grew up in, and the door was cracked. So I went in, and they were celebrating the young students, members of the church that were going to college. And I got involved in that. And one thing led to another and whatever it was, weeks later, months later, I got baptized.

[David Marchese]

Your father was a preacher, is that right?

[Denzel Washington]

Yes, yes.

[David Marchese]

Do you feel like you're sort of following in a family tradition in some sense, or connecting with him?

[Denzel Washington]

It was prophesied in my youth that I would travel the world and preach or speak to millions of people. I used to think that I was doing that through my work. Now I'm trying to be a bit more specific about speaking about my faith.

[David Marchese]

I've seen you refer to the prophecy. Can you tell folks the story?

[Denzel Washington]

Well, a woman was sitting in my mother's beauty shop in March 1975. The reason I was in there was because I'd flunked out of college.

[David Marchese]

And this is Mount Vernon, New York, right?

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah, yeah. I was up in Mount Vernon, and I was told to take a semester off from school to think about my, you know, what I wanted to do. And every time I looked up in the mirror, I saw this woman looking at me, and she said she was having a prophecy. She said I would travel the world and preach to millions of people. She didn't say anything about me being an actor or getting back in school. But I have traveled the world and I am speaking more and more.

[David Marchese]

But was your gift for acting and the career that you've had, do you feel like any sort of message was being delivered through that or was acting totally. You know. Did it turn out that it was totally separate from the.

[Denzel Washington]

No, I wouldn't say it's. It's either or, you know, I don't separate one, nor do I categorize, but it's definitely given me the platform to speak.

[David Marchese]

Do you think there might come a time when you move to speaking mostly through ministry and not through acting?

[Denzel Washington]

I don't know. I don't know.

[David Marchese]

And, you know, this. This is just a bit of a shot in the dark that it's based on just some reading I was doing that I think sparked some connections for me. But I was just reading. There's a book by James Baldwin calls the Devil Finds Work, and in there he makes connections between the church and theater. Does that comparison ring true for you? Do you see similarities between the church and theater?

[Denzel Washington]

The universal stems from the specific. So you gotta Be more specific in what way?

[David Marchese]

He says, you know, both are about people sort of experiencing an event together, communally, creating the event as it happens. When all these people are together in the moment experiencing the same thing. It sounds like James Baldwin is saying there is an energy and, you know, sort of a spirit that is created. That for him was sort of similar between the church and the theater.

[Denzel Washington]

And I can agree with that. I agree with that. Yeah.

[David Marchese]

Yeah. The reason, of course, I ask about theater is because you're going back to the theater to do Othello. Can you tell me about the rewards for you of doing Shakespeare?

[Denzel Washington]

It's 48 years between I played Othello at 22, and I'm going back at 70. So the challenge of that. I love the theater. I started in the theater. I learned to act on stage. And as an actor, I think that still gives me the greatest joy, is acting on stage as opposed to acting in movies.

[David Marchese]

That's a thing that I've heard actors say a fair bit, that there is an energy or a joy that comes from doing theatrical work and immed. Yeah. And I'm wondering if you can help someone like me, who has no experience acting, understand sort of the emotional difference of performing in the different mediums. Yeah.

[Denzel Washington]

Film is a director's medium. No matter what you do as an actor, the director, slash editor, decides whether it's in the movie or not. Theater is an actor's medium. Once the curtain goes up, it's between us and the audience, and they. They tell you how they feel that. That night.

[David Marchese]

You know, you've been acting for a pretty long time now. A long time. How has your relationship to acting changed?

[Denzel Washington]

The lines are more frightening now. No, no, it's. I mean, I like to think I. I know a lot more at 70 years old than I knew at 22 and. And enjoy the ride. I enjoy it. I appreciate it more, that's for sure.

[David Marchese]

What do you appreciate about it?

[Denzel Washington]

Just being alive. That. That alone. You know, if somebody said to. Considering how I shouldn't even say it.

[David Marchese]

Say it.

[Denzel Washington]

What do they say? Considering how long you're dead, you're here a relatively short period of time. So for me, that means take full advantage of it and don't take moments for granted.

[David Marchese]

I was wondering. I also watched the commencement speech you gave at Penn. This is probably, I don't know, 10 years ago, something like that. And you talk to the students about the necessity of. You have to be willing to fail, which is another way of saying you have to be willing to take Risks. And are there ways in which doing Othello or even just doing theater feels like a risk for you?

[Denzel Washington]

In light of all that's going on in our world, in light of all that's going on in our state, California, in our city specifically, it's just a play. You know, I'm grateful for the opportunity, but when put in perspective, it's just a play.

[David Marchese]

Yeah. Yeah. What has your experience been with the fires out there? Is it if they come near you or, you know.

[Denzel Washington]

No, just as a spectator and just being amazed. First of all, just the scope and size and devastation and then hearing all about a lot of people in our industry, you know, who've been affected, you know, Pacific Palisades and just unbelievable. And just, just unbelievable.

[David Marchese]

I mean, it's going to change that city for decades.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah, it has changed the city already. Well, just will never be the same. You know, the scars, the, the stories, the testimonies that thousands of people have now, the loss of life and of property and, and, and memories and it was, it is an equal opportunity destroyer from richest to poorest. It, it, it's a sad thing.

[David Marchese]

Does it make you want to live somewhere else?

[Denzel Washington]

What do you mean live somewhere else? What do you mean? Like run?

[David Marchese]

Well, it's just the reality of, of the danger in California is. It's scary.

[Denzel Washington]

No, it doesn't make me want to live somewhere else.

[David Marchese]

Let me shift gears for a second. I want to ask you about family. Did having children change your perspective on the work at all?

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah, it changed my perspective. Like, shoot, they got to go. Where to school. It costs how much? How much do clothes cost? Yeah, it changed everything.

[David Marchese]

A thing I'm always curious about with actors is, and just artists generally is when they realize it is also a business and a money making enterprise. And you know, it's not just this pure thing where you follow your artistic bliss all the time. And it's sort of what you're describing a little bit. Like at some point you thought, well, I got to take money making jobs. Does that affect how you approach the work itself?

[Denzel Washington]

When I learned about my favorite uncle, my least favorite uncle, my Uncle Sam, that was the eye opener. I'm like, what? He takes what you mean from go. He gets how much? What did he do? You know, that's the reality of it. And a dollar is not a dollar. It's about 40 cents. By the time agent, lawyer, business manager, Uncle Sam, everybody else gets finished with you. A dollar is about 38 cents. And that's what it is. So you gotta cobble those 38 cents together to make a dollar, a real dollar.

[David Marchese]

But does it affect the work? Like, if you know that something is a money job, basically, do you go about doing that job any differently?

[Denzel Washington]

You're asking me did I ever take a job for money?

[David Marchese]

No. No. I'm asking because I was about to answer it. Okay.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah, I've taken every job for money. There's no job. I've taken where I went. You know what? You guys just keep the money. I'm just so happy to be. I'm just so glad to be an actor. I don't even want the money. My kids, we'll work it out. They'll. We'll. We'll homeschool them.

[David Marchese]

You're breaking my heart.

[Denzel Washington]

I don't.

[David Marchese]

I think you're. There's got to be a difference in the calculus when you say yes to Mississippi Masala or even Malcolm X, as opposed to Virtuosity or Ricochet. Action movies.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah, probably especially Virtuosity. That was. I had some bills to pay. Ricochet was more like venturing down that road for the first time.

[David Marchese]

The action movie road.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah. Yeah, the action movie road, which I didn't really know Virtuosity had. Definitely had something to do with tuition, I'm sure.

[David Marchese]

You know, going back to the subject of your children, they all work in the business, right? Was that something that you felt like you had to navigate with them or talk with them? I mean, I imagine they got jobs.

[Denzel Washington]

Before I knew they were in the business. John David was reading for Ballers, and I didn't even know about it because he was working with his mom. Pauletta didn't tell me, so he got the job before I knew about it.

[David Marchese]

Why didn't they tell you?

[Denzel Washington]

Because I probably would have told everybody or blown it or done something because I talked too much.

[David Marchese]

Your wife Pauletta is an actress?

[Denzel Washington]

Yes, and singer and concert pianist. Child prodigy. Van Clyburn. Are you familiar with the Van Clyburn Competition?

[David Marchese]

Yeah, the piano competition.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah. My wife was a Van Clyburn competitor. Juilliard, North Carolina school, the arts, the whole. I married up.

[David Marchese]

What have you learned about being an artist from her?

[Denzel Washington]

That it's an art. You know, that it's an art. Acting just sort of chose me, and I got going and all good, but she's an artist. I never looked at myself that way, and I just learned a lot about it, the discipline of it, the appreciation of it from her.

[David Marchese]

So do you still not look at yourself as an artist?

[Denzel Washington]

I try not to look at Myself, period. You know, look at myself as a. What? I ain't got no time for that. I'm not much for reflection.

[David Marchese]

Can I ask you about the piece?

[Denzel Washington]

I don't have any money.

[David Marchese]

That was my next question.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah, I know. Go ahead. You would ask me about what.

[David Marchese]

The. The first person piece you did for Esquire last year? Sort of.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah.

[David Marchese]

Tied to Gladiator 2. You know, you talked sort of a. Almost like a memoiristic piece. You talked about your whole life and. And your career. And I think that was the first place, at least that I've seen where you really talked about drinking. And in there you said, there's this long period. I think you pegged it as like 1999-2014. When you put the beverage down, you were bitter. Bitter about what?

[Denzel Washington]

I was bitter when I put it down or I was bitter when I picked it up?

[David Marchese]

I'd be interested to hear what you say now.

[Denzel Washington]

Probably bitter when I picked it up, not when I put it down. I wasn't bitter when I put it down.

[David Marchese]

Yeah, but what were you bitter about?

[Denzel Washington]

What? Pick something. I don't know. Any excuse will do. And no excuse is good enough.

[David Marchese]

Do you feel like you have insight into sort of what the. Like what the drinking was about?

[Denzel Washington]

Who commanded? We don't have that much time, brother. Yeah, we don't have that much time.

[David Marchese]

Is it right that you used to carry around your acceptance letter from the American Conservatory Theater?

[Denzel Washington]

No, I kept a letter from my English teacher.

[David Marchese]

Oh, why did. Why was it something that you kept?

[Denzel Washington]

He just wanted to get all in my business because it made me feel good. It was. It was. It was a letter of recommendation. That's what it was.

[David Marchese]

I'm just trying to fish around for things to. That might be engaging. I don't mean to fish or, you know, I'm not trying to get all up in your business or.

[Denzel Washington]

But you are all up in my business, man.

[David Marchese]

Yeah. I apologize.

[Denzel Washington]

And I don't. I don't like it, man. I'm just here to talk. I'm joking. I'm joking.

[David Marchese]

Oh, thank God.

[Denzel Washington]

That was a joke. You look so serious. That was a joke. He whiz. I know how to get you now. You're easy.

[David Marchese]

I'm too easy is a problem. I just think. Can I be honest with you?

[Denzel Washington]

Go ahead. Go ahead. Sure.

[David Marchese]

I just want to. I don't know where to go conversationally with you. I feel like I'm just jumping around and it's not. I'm not connecting, but. And I don't Know what I'm supposed to. What if there's a difference?

[Denzel Washington]

Like, maybe I should ask you a question. Sure. Why do you feel that way?

[David Marchese]

Oh, you know, can I give you two answers to that?

[Denzel Washington]

Okay, I allow two. Two answers. Yes.

[David Marchese]

Well, the first answer is why I feel that way is because the answers have sort of been short, and, you know, often people sort of are a little more expansive, and I think, well.

[Denzel Washington]

I'll give you an expansive answer. Ask me a question, and I'm going to give you an expansive answer.

[David Marchese]

Well.

[Denzel Washington]

Go ahead.

[David Marchese]

All right, so you. You, not too long ago, you finished filming a film with Spike Lee. Is that right?

[Denzel Washington]

Yes, that was your answer.

[David Marchese]

Tricked me again.

[Denzel Washington]

No, no, I did finish what was Michael Egot.

[David Marchese]

So. And I think it's your first time. Yes. Your first time working with him since Inside man, which is almost 20 years ago. How has your relationship with him changed over time? What was different about it?

[Denzel Washington]

That's a good question.

[David Marchese]

Finally.

[Denzel Washington]

No, no, because I don't know. That didn't feel like 20 years. We had such great success 20 years ago. I guess he kicked me to the curb and started working with my son. Actually, come to think of it, maybe. Yeah, he kicked me to the curb and started working with my son. No, it felt like we picked up where we left off. You know, I mean, Spike is Spike. Meaning Spike is consistent. Least Spike. I love that about him, and I love working with him, and I'd work with him again, and, you know, I just like the way his brain works.

[David Marchese]

Can I tell you this? The second reason why I'm having a hard time today? I like to ask philosophical questions about, like, why people do what they do and sort of the meaning of it.

[Denzel Washington]

And it seems wrong with that.

[David Marchese]

I enjoy it. And, you know, it's. It seems like when I've asked you those types of questions, you know, you. It just hasn't seemed interesting to you. And I think as a result, I feel like I've been flailing a little just trying to say, what about this? What about that?

[Denzel Washington]

Well, here's your opportunity to get back on track with your next question.

[David Marchese]

All right, I'll try again. I'll try again. Okay. It's not gonna work.

[Denzel Washington]

Yes, it will. Okay. You can't. You. How are you gonna say it's not gonna work before you even try?

[David Marchese]

Okay, I'll try. I'll try. So.

[Denzel Washington]

So it's not gonna work. No, go ahead.

[David Marchese]

Now you're just liking making me squirm. But that's. That's fine. That's Fine.

[Denzel Washington]

What's the question?

[David Marchese]

So I'm always curious about the interplay. Okay. Between the life and the work.

[Denzel Washington]

Okay.

[David Marchese]

And I just rewatched Flight, which. That's my favorite performance of yours and interesting. Yeah. In that one, you play an airline captain named Whip Whitaker, who, struggling with alcohol, managed to save a flight in sort of semi miraculous fashion. And the thing that I was thinking about in watching that one was how it fit in with your life at the time. Because it was in that timeline, I think, when you were drinking and I did wonder, did playing that character show you anything about your own situation or. Yeah, I'll stop there.

[Denzel Washington]

Did it show me anything about my own situation? Not that I recall. I mean, first of all, I didn't drink and work. Never have. I work and then drink, like maybe when I'm finished the movie or whatever. So I wasn't honest with you. I don't even remember whether I was drinking those evenings or not. I don't really recall, to be honest with you. But what was the question? You said, did it affect. You said, did it what?

[David Marchese]

Yeah, did sort of. You learn anything about yourself from doing a role like that?

[Denzel Washington]

I think when you're in the middle of it, you're not so self reflective. Cause you're still working out the character. You haven't shot the last scene. You don't know how it ends. In a sense, you know, not making light of it. But not when you're in the middle of it so much. I think that's with any character.

[David Marchese]

You're saying you sort of gained some understanding, maybe after the fact, not when you're doing it.

[Denzel Washington]

Well, yeah, if you're thinking about it, which I probably wasn't.

[David Marchese]

Yeah. Yeah. Morty, what kinds of things do you think I should ask?

[Denzel Washington]

Me. I want to know more about you.

[David Marchese]

Okay, we can switch roles. I would love to do that.

[Denzel Washington]

What do you need to work on more than anything else? If you said to yourself, I wish I was better at this, what would that be?

[David Marchese]

Aside from interviewing Denzel Washington?

[Denzel Washington]

No, come on, don't deflect. We're talking about you now.

[David Marchese]

I'll tell you. I'll tell you. The thing that I need to work on more than anything else is I have an assertiveness and an assertiveness problem and a problem with conflict.

[Denzel Washington]

You mean being assertive or you're too.

[David Marchese]

Assertive with being assertive?

[Denzel Washington]

You're not assertive enough?

[David Marchese]

I'm not assertive enough. And I have a problem with conflict in a way that, because I try and avoid It. The problems end up, rather than getting solved, they just linger.

[Denzel Washington]

And that had something to do with your dad or what?

[David Marchese]

Oh, this. See, I should be taking lessons from you. Would you answer these types of questions if I asked you them?

[Denzel Washington]

Ask me.

[David Marchese]

What do you need to work on the most?

[Denzel Washington]

Hmm. Othello.

[David Marchese]

No, you're deflecting. I said I can't deflect, so you don't deflect.

[Denzel Washington]

Okay. No, good point. I don't know. What do I need to work on the most? Even my answer sounds like a deflection. I was gonna mention my faith, but that sounds like deflection. I don't know. Maybe that's a good thing. I can't think of something I need to really work on.

[David Marchese]

Well, I think that means. I mean, nobody's perfect. Maybe you're not.

[Denzel Washington]

I didn't say I was perfect.

[David Marchese]

Not thinking hard enough.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah, maybe I'm not thinking hard enough. You know, relationships, you can always do better there.

[David Marchese]

How?

[Denzel Washington]

Okay, I'm a talker, so I got to work on listening.

[David Marchese]

Doesn't feel like you're a talker.

[Denzel Washington]

No, I guess because I'm listening today. I'm. It's a role I'm playing.

[David Marchese]

Wait, ask me another one.

[Denzel Washington]

Tell me the second thing that you love. Not the first thing. The second thing you love the most.

[David Marchese]

Well, two things. Can I tell us?

[Denzel Washington]

Can I say two? All right, go ahead.

[David Marchese]

This is gonna sound so corny. The second one's not as corny, but the first one that came to mind was laughing. Oh, laughing.

[Denzel Washington]

That's a good thing. Great. That's a great thing.

[David Marchese]

And then the second thing is intellectual stimulation. I hate being bored.

[Denzel Washington]

I like. I like both of those answers. I'm running with that. Laughter and intellectual stimulization.

[David Marchese]

Stimul. Stimulation.

[Denzel Washington]

Stimuli. When I say stimulus. Stimulation. Intellectual stimulation. That's what obviously I need. More intellectual stimulation.

[David Marchese]

Okay, your turn.

[Denzel Washington]

The thing that. What?

[David Marchese]

That I'm the thing you love second most, I think was. What's the question?

[Denzel Washington]

I think the opportunity to lift others up.

[David Marchese]

How have you done that?

[Denzel Washington]

Every opportunity in every which way I can. Sometimes with a dime, sometimes with a dollar, sometimes with a good word. I love helping people. I love seeing people do well. So any opportunity I get to do that is really selfish because it makes me feel good.

[David Marchese]

Can I do my version of the kinds of questions you've been asking me?

[Denzel Washington]

Okay.

[David Marchese]

How do you think evil works in the world?

[Denzel Washington]

It's an opportunity for good to take advantage of it. Evil is short term. Evil always has an end. Evil's always revisited on the evil, period. That's all I got to say about it. It's always revisited on the evil.

[David Marchese]

Where do you think evil comes from?

[Denzel Washington]

We're the only animal on the planet that God has blessed with free will. You don't believe me? Run from a lion and see if the lion goes, ah, I think he's a nice guy. He does good interviews. We're going to let him live today. No, he's going to chase you down. He's going to eat you.

[David Marchese]

The last question for this time. What should I go away and think about in preparation for when we talk again?

[Denzel Washington]

Man goes down to the ocean and tries to fit all the knowledge of the ocean into his little brain instead of just jumping in the water and enjoying himself. Sometimes you just have to have faith in things bigger than our ability to understand them. Now, you call it what you want, Some call it God, you call it what you want. But sometimes you just have to jump in the water and enjoy yourself and not try to figure it out.

[David Marchese]

All right, I think that is something for me to think about for next time.

[Denzel Washington]

For next time, bring your bathing suit. We're jumping in the water together next time.

[David Marchese]

After the break, Denzel and I sit down in person and he digs a little deeper into this moment in his career.

[Denzel Washington]

Well, today you didn't get a nomination for an Oscar. You're working on Othello on Broadway. Are you kidding me? Oh, oh, I'm so upset.

[David Marchese]

Foreign.

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[David Marchese]

Thank you for giving me another run of this. I appreciate it.

[Denzel Washington]

Thank you.

[David Marchese]

And so we're in this rehearsal space where you're working on Othello. How are the rehearsals going so far?

[Denzel Washington]

It's going well. In fact, we. We have our first day today, which is day four of rehearsal, where we'll start to. Just starting to stand it up on his feet. Just starting today will be the first day of blocking.

[David Marchese]

And how much of our conversation from last week do you remember? Do you remember any?

[Denzel Washington]

None.

[David Marchese]

None. Okay. All right, good. So that's helpful for me because I really felt like I was flailing. But, you know, at the end of our conversation, I had asked you if there was anything that maybe I could reflect on before we spoke again. And you told me this little, very short little parable about a man standing at the edge of the water.

[Denzel Washington]

Man goes down to the ocean. I forgot where I got that. Might have been some yogi. I don't know where I got it from, but the way I interpret it over the years, the way I've come to understand it, is that jumping in the water is faith. Just jump in. You know, you can't figure it all out.

[David Marchese]

Yeah, but the way I was thinking about that parable was that I felt like in our first conversation, I was too stuck in my own head, wrapped up in expectations of how the conversation was supposed to go, rather than just being with you in the moment and sort of meeting you where you were. But my question also is, where did you learn that lesson that sometimes you just gotta jump in the water rather than think about the water?

[Denzel Washington]

Oh, I've tried everything else.

[David Marchese]

Yeah.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah, I've tried everything else. You know, I was reading Matthew today, and it talks about the mustard seed, and if you put it in rocky soil, it won't grow and all those things. And it talks about faith, you know, that you have to have faith that it will grow. And it talked about this. You can't even figure out how it grows or why it grows or where the sun comes from. Man goes down, Man. Here's what I mean. Man tries to reduce everything down to his understanding, which is the ultimate in ego, which is, if I don't understand it, it doesn't exist. So people don't understand God. So some say, therefore he doesn't exist. Or they say, I'm God because that's what they need. Well, I'm like, how's that working out? If that's where. If that works for you. Okay. Yeah, I was watching something interesting last night. I'm jumping all over the place.

[David Marchese]

Yeah, go for it. Yeah, it's already going better.

[Denzel Washington]

I was watching this thing about Herod, man.

[David Marchese]

Oh, King Herod.

[Denzel Washington]

Oh. So this long special, I was like, man, he was a mess.

[David Marchese]

Yeah.

[Denzel Washington]

See, he thought he could think his way to heaven, so he kept building things on higher and higher places. And he's going to be up here looking down on everybody. And obviously he was a genius, but I guess he died in the worst way. I don't, I don't know. Yeah, I don't remember.

[David Marchese]

You know, you, you also spoke last time about the value for you of helping people. Does acting help people?

[Denzel Washington]

At this point, everything I'm doing is through the lens of what God thinks, not what they think. I don't know what they think. I, I, that's a whole. You go down that hole, you'll never come out of that. I hope they enjoy the show, but I can't. I don't know what you need. I can't. You know, we don't do a poll before the screening or before the play starts. And it's some interesting themes. Jealousy and envy and pain and death. And Kenny, brilliant director, he's putting in what he calls the near future. So it's now, let's say near now. So all of those things, jealousy, envy, all of that, it takes on a whole new thing with the information age.

[David Marchese]

What's your favorite line from Othello?

[Denzel Washington]

I don't know.

[David Marchese]

I got two. You want to hear them?

[Denzel Washington]

Okay.

[David Marchese]

First is Othello.

[Denzel Washington]

Are they from him or from one's?

[David Marchese]

From Othello, one's Iago. Othello is who can control his fate. And then my favorite line of all of Shakespeare is Iago's line, I am not what I am.

[Denzel Washington]

I am not what I am. He said it yesterday. He's a complicated guy. He's going to be brilliant in this.

[David Marchese]

Who, Jake Gyllenhaal? Yeah.

[Denzel Washington]

He's nuts. I love him. He's so. He, he's complicated, but he's already got a handle on it. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm. I could see how far ahead people are than me. I'm not worried about that because I don't like to learn the lines too soon. I was telling a young actor like, well, why don't you like to learn them too soon? I says, because then I'm the voice I'm listening to, delivering the cues to myself. I want to hear it from you. And that's going to affect how I say what I say.

[David Marchese]

Yeah.

[Denzel Washington]

So for me, that works. And to be quite honest, because I played it before, I still kind of remember it, but it's not word for word. I'm seeing where I miss a word here, a word there. So it's like, not like I got a. Like, I learned the first scene last night in about an hour and a half. And I ran a little bit with the kid this morning before I saw you, and I'm like, oh, okay. I'll be all right.

[David Marchese]

You just said Jake Gyllenhaal was complicated. Do you think?

[Denzel Washington]

In a good way?

[David Marchese]

In a good way?

[Denzel Washington]

Oh, yeah. In a great way.

[David Marchese]

Are you complicated?

[Denzel Washington]

I'm sure. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, you know, trying to thin the herd, keep it simple. My mother used to say that. Keep it simple. That's hard to do. I'd like to tell you that this morning I woke up and started thinking about God. I woke up and started thinking about Othello. But then I said, but that's okay. You're excited. You know, it's. It's a. It's an interesting place for me to visit. Now, 48 years after I visited it the first time on the way to work, we were going down Ninth Avenue, and we passed Fordham University. And I said the first day of rehearsal Tuesday, I said, Wow, 48 years ago, I was doing Othello right there at 22, and now I'm heading over here to 40, whatever it is, Fifth street to do Othello again. Ain't life interesting? And I'm only two blocks away from where we live now, which is, you know, and we overlooked the park. My wife. I remember saying to my mother, I said, ma, you know, all these years. And Ali moved two blocks. She said, yeah, but you went up 14 stories as only a mother, right?

[David Marchese]

Yeah. You know, you said, everything now is kind of about seeing it through the lens of what God thinks, or at.

[Denzel Washington]

Least through the lens of faith. Yeah.

[David Marchese]

How does acting fit into that?

[Denzel Washington]

That's why you pray every day. I'm like, okay, Lord, I'm here. I think this is what you wanted me to do. Now, I'm not sure why, you know, but one can say coincidence and serendipity and all those things. I bit my tongue almost half off about a few months ago, and it's affecting my speech. It. It forces me to slow down. You know, as they say, bite your tongue. Othello says, rude. Am I in my speech? I said, you mean I bit my tongue so that I Could barefoot. Well, the fact of the matter is that is what it is and I got to go forward with it. Yeah, I have to use it. I have a line I'm just starting to learn whether. Will you. That I go to answer this your charge wither. Will you. You see what I'm saying?

[David Marchese]

It's hard.

[Denzel Washington]

It's hard because my tongue is. Yeah, my tongue is sort of. And I got some temporary tooth put in because my tooth fell out of my head. So my. Everything is thicker. It's affected everything. And I'm thinking that's a bad thing. So I don't think it's ever going to heal. It's like I got a little flap.

[David Marchese]

In there now, but you just got to use it. You just got to use it.

[Denzel Washington]

Jump in the water and enjoy yourself instead of worrying about drowning.

[David Marchese]

Yeah, this is. You know, I've really been thinking a lot lately about David lynch who just died.

[Denzel Washington]

That's Velvet.

[David Marchese]

Oh, what about Backup of a movie.

[Denzel Washington]

Man, that was a great movie. I loved it.

[David Marchese]

Yeah.

[Denzel Washington]

I was like, this guy's nuts.

[David Marchese]

But the thing that the. One of the reasons. I mean, I loved his movies, but one of the reasons that he was really meaningful to me and why I've been thinking about him so much is that, you know, probably about 15 or so years ago, maybe even a little long, I was really low, you know, sort of just really struggling. And I thought, I gotta change something. My life can't go on like this. And I. Because I liked his movies, I. I saw that. I was in a bookstore and I saw that David lynch had this book called Catching the Big Fish. It's about creativity. And in there he has a bit where he's talking about why he meditates. He said one of the benefits of meditation is that it helps you become more you. And then I started meditating about 15 or so years ago, maybe even longer. And it's completely changed my life. Just seeing that one little sentence in that one book I picked up one day by David lynch changed my life. Have you ever had an experience like that where just some, you know, from.

[Denzel Washington]

Afar someone changed prophecy, changed my life completely. Now I wasn't ready. Going back to Matthew, it must have been seed planted in. I forgot there's rocky soil. And there's the other one where it talks about the cares of the world come in and take it away from you. So she planted the seed, but I wasn't ready for it or I didn't understand it. It's been a 50 year journey from then. I was 20 then. I'm 70 now. It's been a, you know, I'm on that 50 year journey to understanding.

[David Marchese]

Did an artist ever change your life?

[Denzel Washington]

An artist?

[David Marchese]

Yeah.

[Denzel Washington]

Yes. So my English teacher, Bob Stone, who was in Othello with Paul Robeson Robinson, Stone, you can look him up. He wrote a recommendation letter for me for the American Conservatory Theater, which I still have. And what he wrote was just. So he basically said to them, if you don't have the ability to give this young talent what he needs, then don't accept him. Which was like. I was like, wow. Like reverse psych. I was like, whoa. But, yeah, that he was artistically, especially early on, the most important person, because he had been there, he understood the game. He helped me, introduce me to first agents and all while I was still in college.

[David Marchese]

Then isn't the funny twist of that story that didn't you drop out of ACT after a couple months?

[Denzel Washington]

No, I stayed for a year.

[David Marchese]

For a year. Okay.

[Denzel Washington]

Politics. I could see what was going on and I already.

[David Marchese]

Wait, what was going on?

[Denzel Washington]

I don't need to bother with that, but just politics and. But more importantly, I had already signed with William Morris. I had already done a movie, TV movie, where I met my wife. I didn't need to stay. And it just. I don't say I outgrew it. I got enough. And the agents would call them. I'm like, I can go back to work. I don't need to stay. Because you would have had to stay another two years to get a master's and I'm already signed with William Morris and getting work. So I left after a year.

[David Marchese]

This is sort of a base question, but did you find that you cared at all about not getting an Oscar nomination for Gladiator 2? Did it matter?

[Denzel Washington]

I was sitting there smiling, going, listen, look at you. The day you didn't get a nomination for an Oscar, you're working on Othello on Broadway. Are you kidding me? Oh. Oh, I'm so upset. You know, I'm happy for all that did and I'm happy with what I'm doing. You know, listen, that I've been around too long and I got. I don't want to say other fish to fry, but there's a reality at this age. You're going back to what I was saying. The beginning of wisdom is understanding. And I'm getting wiser, working on talking less and learning to understand more. And that's exciting.

[David Marchese]

Is there anything you want people to take away from this interview?

[Denzel Washington]

Believe in something greater than yourself. Believe. It's a complicated world. There's too much information coming at us from too many places, good and bad, for us to think that we can reduce it all to our level of understanding with our little brain. We are being forced to have faith. However you interpret that we are being forced by our circumstances. Look at the world. What does it give you every day? Fires, death, murder, politics, dictators, this, that. Division, separation. I'm right, you're wrong. Look at the world we've created for ourselves. That's all I gotta say.

[David Marchese]

Mr. Washington, thank you for taking all the time to talk with me. This was a challenge and I appreciate you making it a challenge. It was good for me. It was good for me.

[Denzel Washington]

Well, tell me again the name of the David lynch book.

[David Marchese]

Oh, yeah, Catching the Big Fish.

[Denzel Washington]

Catching the Big Fish.

[David Marchese]

You know, I'll email me a copy of it. I'll send you a copy.

[Denzel Washington]

A hard copy. I'm still analogous. Can you read a book from a phone?

[David Marchese]

Never. Never.

[Denzel Washington]

Never. Right.

[David Marchese]

All right, get to work.

[Denzel Washington]

Yeah. All right. God bless you guys. Enjoy your day.

[David Marchese]

That's Denzel Washington. Othello begins previews later this month. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Afim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell, Elisheba Itupe and Marion Lozano. Photography by Devin Yalkin. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedikt. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Matty Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the interview. Wherever you get your podcasts to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com theinterview and you can email us anytime@the interviewytimes.com Next week, Lulu talks with Senator Ruben Gallego. I'm David Marchese and this is the interview from the New York Times.

[Denzel Washington]

Foreign.

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Right now, Oracle can cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI. Minimum financial commitment and other terms apply. Offer ends March 31. See if you [e-mail] NYT oracle.com NYT.