Podcast Summary: The Interview – “George Saunders Is No Saint (Despite What You May Have Heard)”

Podcast: The Interview (The New York Times)
Host: David Marchese
Guest: George Saunders
Date: January 10, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode of The Interview, David Marchese sits down with acclaimed writer and teacher George Saunders, recently honored with the National Book Foundation's Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters. The conversation explores the complexities behind Saunders’ public persona as a “guru of kindness,” the philosophical underpinnings of his new novel Vigil, his thoughts on empathy and judgment, the evolution of his political beliefs, reflections on death and the afterlife, and deep observations about teaching writing and the roles of literature and kindness. The episode balances humor, vulnerability, and insight, revealing a writer who resists his mythologizing and invites listeners to grapple with the unanswerable questions at the heart of art and life.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Navigating Public Perception: The Kindness “Guru” Conundrum

• Saunders’ "Saintly" Reputation: Saunders is often hailed as a champion of kindness due to his viral convocation speech and positive literary influence.

  • He’s uncomfortable with the “secular saint” label, emphasizing that he is just as flawed as anyone else.
    • “So to say it’s important to be kind does not mean I got it, you know, but…” (21:58, Saunders)
  • The original intent of his speech was to highlight how hard, not how easy, kindness is to maintain.

• Struggle with Kindness:

  • Saunders admits to human foibles: anxiety, grumpiness, impatience.
  • Daily struggles with kindness, e.g., caring for a sick dog while managing life’s demands (22:08).

2. Exploring Themes: Vigil and the Responsibility of Judgment

• On Determinism and Responsibility:

  • Saunders discusses the novel's exploration of judgment, blame, and the philosophical debate over free will.
  • References a Chekhov quote on art’s job being to “formulate the problem, not solve it.” (04:02)
  • In Vigil, characters debate whether people are responsible for their actions or products of circumstances.

• Character Duality:

  • One ghostly character asserts, “nobody is to blame, nobody should take credit... the only thing to do is to be kind and comfort one another.”
  • Another represents vengeance, fostering debate within the story about justice for wrongdoers, especially those complicit in climate change.

• Reflection on Real-World Judgment:

  • Saunders sometimes wants “the hammer to drop” on the wicked but concludes literature, at its best, elevates both our empathy and understanding.

3. The Transformative Power of Literature—Or Not?

• Does Literature Make Us Better?

  • Marchese challenges Saunders’ oft-stated belief that literature generates empathy and goodness, noting “giant jerks” exist in the arts, while the kindest people often aren’t readers (07:55).
  • Saunders concedes great art does not correlate directly to great personal virtue, and that literature’s effect is often temporary or incremental:
    • “As long as we take the timeframe down a bit… for that 40 seconds after you’ve been nailed by a story, you’re kind of a little bit different.” (38:24, Saunders)
  • Art’s “sacramental” potential is fleeting but gives us “a way back” to expansiveness.

• Art’s Purpose and Justification:

  • Saunders resists grand justification for art, agreeing that art “answers to nobody,” but laments how literature has become marginalized in education (39:32).
  • Suggests early exposure to challenging literature could cultivate empathy and critical thinking in students (40:00).

4. Craft, Aspiration, and Teaching

• Saunders’ Journey Away from Ayn Rand Republicanism:

  • Early attraction to Ayn Rand was rooted in insecurity and the promise of specialness (11:25).
  • A pivotal experience: seeing poverty while working in the Singapore oil fields catalyzed his shift to progressive thinking, connecting with family struggles and childhood Catholicism (13:44).
  • The novelistic (and Christ-like) urge to see, forgive, and understand the shunned and the flawed (14:23).

• Depth of Empathy, Limits of Fiction:

  • Saunders believes he can write empathy for almost any character—even a Trump-like figure—though notes it can be “facile empathy” if not deeply earned (16:01).

• Teaching Philosophy:

  • Gentle, supportive instruction is key; avoids the “I know who’s got it” arrogance of the old guard (44:20).
  • Prioritizes helping students “come out of the protectionism of being perma-edgy” and identify when their voice is truly authentic (43:05).

5. Reflections on Death, the Afterlife, and Salvation

• Saunders’ Death Obsession & Writing About the Afterlife:

  • Recurring afterlife themes are rooted in childhood fears and the dissolving of three core delusions: permanence, self-importance, and separateness (29:55, 31:29).
  • Describes salvation as “any instance when you step out of those three delusions” (31:29).

• Buddhism and Kindness:

  • Buddhism and writing both create space between thoughts and self, enabling moments of clarity and non-reactivity (25:33).
  • “If you could just have that one little split second of… I can make a different choice to have a different thought or to respond differently to that choice.” (26:41, Marchese)

6. Karma, Individual Responsibility, and the Problem of Judgment

• Understanding Karma:
  • For Saunders, karma is cause and effect, not a cosmic reward/punishment scheme (45:06).
  • Karma may play out in subtle ways, but people are rarely aware of the full consequences of their actions.

7. Technology, Civility, and the Erosion of Human Connection

• The Age of Impersonality:
  • Saunders observes an increasing tendency toward impersonal, online interaction, eroding genuine human-to-human contact (33:55).
  • Cites an example of a hostile email that, upon human response, led to de-escalation and connection (34:51).
  • Believes the main “through line” of his life/writing is a concern for the devaluation of direct, empathetic interaction.

8. Perspective, Gratitude, and the Arc of a Life in Writing

• Looking Back and Forward:
  • Reflects on youthful ambition and the later realization that “even pretty much shorn of [ambition] I still liked being alive and still felt a lot of happiness” (48:33).
  • Remembers a recent visit to his old college; moving recognition of having fulfilled youthful hopes, but also acceptance of life’s unpredictability and value even without success.
  • “What if you don’t have any writing career?... You’re just hopefully a good father and husband. And in that space…it was really—I found that there was plenty, plenty to live for and to live happily for.” (49:35, Saunders)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Art and Formulating Questions:
  • “A work of art doesn’t have to solve a problem, it just has to formulate it correctly.” (04:02, Saunders, paraphrasing Chekhov)
• On Being Labeled a Saint:
  • “I was just keeping myself from levitating. Sometimes I have to roll the eyes.” (21:07, Saunders)
• On Empathy in Fiction:
  • “As I work harder and harder to know that guy through the things he’s said and done and seen and remembers my sense of wanting to judge him…seems juvenile. Anybody can judge. Let’s just go deeper and deeper.” (14:23, Saunders)
• On Technology’s Corrosive Effects:
  • “The number of interactions a day that we now have that have that kind of strange conditionality of impersonality, it skyrocketed and I think it’s corrosive.” (35:00, Saunders)
• On the Incremental Power of Literature:
  • “For that 40 seconds after you’ve been nailed by a story, you’re kind of a little bit different.”
• On Ambition and Contentment:
  • “Even pretty much shorn of that, I still liked being alive and still felt a lot of, you know, happiness and like, oh, all right, well, I’m still okay, you know. That was very sweet.” (50:45, Saunders)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:34: The two central worldviews of Vigil
• 07:29: The “benefits” of literature—does it make us better?
• 11:25: Saunders’ journey from Ayn Rand Republicanism to progressive empathy
• 14:23: Catholic upbringing’s influence on compassion in fiction
• 21:07: “Secular sainthood” and the reality of personal fallibility
• 25:33: Connections between Buddhist practice, self-awareness, kindness, and art
• 29:55: Death, afterlife, and Saunders’ personal reflections
• 34:51: Erosion of civility and the corrosive power of digital life
• 43:05: Teaching students to recognize and trust their authentic voice
• 45:06: Karma as ultimate cause and effect
• 48:33: Reflections on ambition, perspective, and the arc of a creative life

Conclusion

This expansive and candid conversation with George Saunders deconstructs the expectations of literary sainthood and explores the gray areas between kindness, empathy, morality, and literary ambition. Saunders is both earnest and self-deprecating, deeply philosophical yet grounded in the everyday struggles of creativity, teaching, and human relationships. The episode is a masterclass in holding complex, conflicting truths—and encourages us to embrace ambiguity, incremental growth, and the ongoing struggle for genuine connection.