Podcast Summary:

The Interview – “Jen Hatmaker’s Life Exploded in Middle Age. So She Built a Better One.”
Host: David Marchese (The New York Times)
Guest: Jen Hatmaker
Release Date: August 23, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features Jen Hatmaker, a prominent Christian author and former “evangelical women’s subculture darling,” as she discusses the two major upheavals in her adult life: her highly public shift away from conservative evangelicalism and the subsequent collapse of her 26-year marriage. Hatmaker and host David Marchese unpack her spiritual and personal transformations, the cascading effects on her identity and career, and the central themes of her memoir, Awake. The conversation is honest, often raw, exploring pain, agency, faith, and the possibility of flourishing after loss.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Jen’s Rise in Evangelical Culture

• Origins: Raised in a strict Southern Baptist environment; father was church staff; internalized church “rules-based” identity.
  • “I was trained in the rhetoric and in the language that was my native tongue and had always been, well, good at being good.” (02:22, Jen)
• Career Start: Married a ministry major, dove into church work (a “two for one” job for ministers’ wives), began teaching, then published her first book at 29.
• Influence Factors: Combined adherence to traditional beliefs with humor and relatability, which made her popular in the evangelical women’s subculture as social media rose.
  • “I was kind of entertaining and just spicy enough to make me a little interesting, but without threatening the story. And so that was the magic formula.” (05:26, Jen)

The Cost of Change: Becoming a “Problem Child”

• Stepping Outside the Lines: Began advocating for anti-racism and, in 2016, publicly affirmed LGBTQIA support—leading to loss of followers, dropped by publishers, and removal of books from shelves.
  • “My most successful book was put out of print. All my speaking engagements were canceled... My publisher put out a press release the next day against me and there was nothing left. It was just scorched earth.” (06:04, Jen)
• A New Community Forms: Despite this, she unexpectedly gained a large following of women experiencing similar faith shifts.

Marriage Collapse: Discovery and Fallout

• The Discovery: Found out her husband of 26 years was unfaithful—at 2:30am, overhearing a voice text to his girlfriend.
  • “There was my life before that moment at 2:30am and then there's my life after. And that was the dividing line of my story.” (11:42, Jen)
• Processing Grief: Initial response was shock and trauma, but she realized the marriage had deeper issues than she previously admitted.
  • “What is untrue is that everything was going great until it wasn’t.” (09:00, Jen)
• Public Scrutiny: Their divorce became “newsworthy” in religious media, with reflexive blaming of Jen due to ingrained patriarchy.
  • “The response to her expose was to come for me, that this was my fault... My husband was completely omitted from the reckoning.” (14:22, Jen)

Purity Culture and Gender Roles

• Sexual Morality: Raised on abstinence-only “True Love Waits” messaging, purity rings, and fear/shame around sex; entered marriage at 19 with little understanding of healthy sexuality.
  • “There was this narrative, particularly for women, which was, don't be slutty... but the day you get married, girl, you better turn it on.” (15:16, Jen)

Examining “Trad Wife” Trends and Rigid Gender Hierarchies

• Rise of Traditionalism: Discusses the appeal and limitations of the “tradwives” movement and its possible drivers—political rhetoric, societal upheaval, comfort in certainty.
  • “In my real world. I don't know anybody like that. That is bonkers. It's bananas to watch.” (18:14, Jen)
• Roots in Politics and Culture: Speculates the trend is amplified by far-right politics and a nostalgia for simplicity during turbulent times.

Faith Evolution and Family Dynamics

• Navigating Relationships: Ongoing challenges relating to loved ones still rooted in conservative faith worlds, especially given personal stakes (e.g., Black and gay children, living in Texas).
  • “Some of that is just a complete shit show. Yeah, I am working that out on a daily basis and deciding, where is my line?... These are consequential, enormous ideas that are not removed from me.” (20:45, Jen)
• Trading One Evangelism For Another: Admits she was briefly as zealous about new progressive beliefs as she had been about her old ones before learning she can’t control or “convert” everyone.
  • “I never met a fight that I was invited to that I didn't accept wholeheartedly. I mean, I fought with everybody...” (22:19, Jen)

Spirituality without Church

• No Longer Attending Church: Ceased attending after divorce and during/after COVID closures, finding organized religion “not serving me” now, though her faith in Jesus endures.
  • “I'm still like big fan of Jesus, don't like so many of his folks. But... the organized religion part of faith is the part that is not serving me.” (24:32, Jen)
• Picking Faith’s “Bricks”: Asserts her faith persists outside of institutional marriage and church, despite criticism of a “salad bar” approach.
  • “I've discovered a faith that exists beautifully outside of all of that.” (27:01, Jen)

Memoir, Divorce, and Rebuilding

• Common Tropes, Real Pain: Acknowledges that her memoir fits the arc of hardship-to-flourishing because that arc is common and true for many women—though it’s not a “shiny story.”
  • “Maybe it fits into the arc, because maybe that's how the arc works more than it doesn't... I'd like to say that my story is not at all special, and I think that's what makes it important.” (28:34, Jen)
• Confronting Codependency: Realized she spent her marriage trying to manage/mitigate others’ feelings and choices (“codependency”), and is still learning independence.
  • “Purging myself of codependency has been one of the biggest and heaviest lifts of the last five years.” (29:47, Jen)
• Learning Independence: Never lived an independent adult moment until divorce—had to learn about finances, living alone, and discovered she thrived.
  • “This has been the best thing that has ever happened to me... It's like I woke up halfway through my life.” (31:35, Jen)

Honesty, Privacy, and Influencer Culture

• Authenticity as a Buzzword: Discusses limits of “authenticity” in publishing/self-presentation; distinguishes between shameful secrecy and justified privacy.
• Naming Faulty Bricks: Takes responsibility: “I co-signed the gender role that I was handed... I repeated it and I taught it.” (38:50, Jen)

Sexuality Post-Marriage & Church

• Sexual Renaissance: Adapting to new paradigms after decades in a monogamous, purity culture-shaped marriage; recognizes growth, complexity, and personal agency.
  • “I'm grown now and I'm in much better control of my own self awareness in every possible way, but including a sexual ethic.” (41:07, Jen)

Complexity & Loss Post-Divorce

• Repair is Never Perfect: Pushes back on the narrative that everything ends happily ever after; acknowledges ongoing pain, changed dreams, and permanent cracks—visible especially through her children.
  • “Nobody dreams about bringing their new baby to two different houses... It is not perfect. You cannot glue Humpty completely back together again. There's cracks and there's some missing pieces...” (43:14, Jen)
• Resilience & New Life: Despite loss, sees extraordinary flourishing among women post-divorce.
  • “I am just convinced that women are not permanently defined by the men who leave them.” (43:14, Jen)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The evangelical community can terrorize you. And they did.” (10:28, Jen)
• “I always think about that night as there was my life before that moment at 2:30am and then there's my life after.” (11:42, Jen)
• “Having access to literally hundreds of thousands of women, I do see that there is a real common experience where women have lost a marriage around here, around this middle space... And they don't just recover, they rebuild and they ultimately flourish.” (43:14, Jen)
• “I'm still like big fan of Jesus, don't like so many of his folks.” (24:32, Jen)
• “You cannot glue Humpty completely back together again. There's cracks and some missing pieces and some of that will just always be true.” (43:14, Jen)

Key Timestamps

• [02:22] Jen’s church upbringing and entry into evangelical women’s subculture
• [06:04] Public fallout from shifting political and theological stances
• [08:31] The moment Jen discovered her husband’s infidelity
• [14:22] Public response to the divorce and media exposure
• [15:16] Experience of purity culture and its effects on marriage/sex
• [18:14] Rise of “tradwives” and changing norms in Christian women’s spaces
• [20:45] Reconciling with family and friends still in the conservative faith community
• [22:19] Trading conservative belief for progressive evangelism
• [24:32] Leaving church but retaining faith
• [27:01] Answering critiques of “salad bar” faith
• [28:34] Memoir arc and embracing unremarkable recovery as universal
• [29:47] Discovering codependency and journey to independence
• [38:50] Accepting responsibility for maintaining old gender roles
• [41:07] New understandings of sexuality post-divorce
• [43:14] Divorce’s lingering pain and possibility for flourishing

Tone & Language: Conversational, candid, at times humorous (especially around painful or awkward events), always self-reflective, and often bluntly honest.

Conclusion

Jen Hatmaker’s story is both specific and emblematic—a chronicle of painful disruption, gradual self-awareness, and what happens when long-held identities disappear. The episode contends with faith, gender, sexuality, and family, all filtered through the lens of painful honesty and a refusal to settle for simple answers. Jen emerges not with the promise of a perfect restoration but with hope for genuine rebuilding and grace in the face of cracks that may never close.

For listeners seeking intense vulnerability, analysis of American evangelicalism, or stories of genuine midlife renewal, this episode is essential—no previous knowledge required.