Podcast Summary: Jimmy Wales Thinks the World Should Be More Like Wikipedia

Podcast: The Interview (The New York Times)
Hosts: Lulu Garcia-Navarro
Guest: Jimmy Wales (Co-founder, Wikipedia)
Date: October 18, 2025

Overview

This episode features a conversation with Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, focusing on trust in the internet era. The discussion explores the current trust deficit in society, the unique mechanisms and principles that have made Wikipedia a generally trusted source of information, the backlash and attacks Wikipedia faces, and Wales’s new book, The Seven Rules of Trust. The episode also investigates whether the Wikipedia model—collaborative, transparent, non-profit—could be replicated today and what it teaches us about fostering trustworthy institutions amidst polarization, changing technology, and political weaponization.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Trust Deficit in Society

• Distinction Between Personal and Institutional Trust:
  • Jimmy Wales distinguishes between levels of trust in day-to-day life (which he sees as generally positive) and cultivated mistrust in institutions like politics, journalism, and business.
  • Quote: "In day to day life people still do trust each other...The crisis we see in politics...is coming from other places and is something that we can fix." — Jimmy Wales [02:43]

Wikipedia’s Approach to Building Trust

• Transparency and Admitting Doubt:
  • Wikipedia openly flags disputes on neutrality or citation gaps as a way to build trust with users who seek unbiased information.
  • Quote: "People like that, not many places these days will tell you, hey, we're not so sure here." — Jimmy Wales [03:38]
• Rigorous, Old-School Fact Checking:
  • Wikipedia values high-quality sources: peer-reviewed research, reputable newspapers, and magazines.
  • Quote: "We don't typically treat a random tweet as a fact. And so we're pretty boring on that regard." — Jimmy Wales [04:26]

Consensus and Disagreement on Wikipedia

• Decentralized, Volunteer Editing:

  • Wikipedia thrives on civil disagreement and open debate, aiming to represent all sides especially on contentious topics.
  • Consensus-Building Example: Reporting on a divisive topic like abortion by stating the positions of major stakeholders, not single narratives.
  • Transparency Tools: Talk pages allow users to examine editorial debates and join in, fostering a transparent and iterative process.
  • Quote: "You could say, Catholic Church position is this, and the critics have responded thusly...That's what a reader really wants." — Jimmy Wales [06:15]

• Effect of Polarization:

  • Politically contentious pages often end up being of higher quality, but sometimes editing must be restricted to preserve integrity during high-traffic or high-abuse periods.
  • Quote: "Most people are basically nice, most people are trustworthy. People don't just come by and vandalize Wikipedia." — Jimmy Wales [09:08]

Wikipedia Under Attack

• Editor Safety at Risk:

  • Editors have been doxxed or pressured by hostile actors or governments (notably in Russia and India), making Wikipedia more vulnerable despite attempts at anonymity.
  • Rising Censorship:
    • Authoritarianism and misinformation campaigns have brought new challenges.
    • Quote: "We are seeing all around the world a rise of authoritarian impulses towards censorship, towards controlling information." — Jimmy Wales [11:09]

• Political Pressure and Accusations of Bias:

  • U.S. politicians have sought editor data and accused Wikipedia of bias, particularly around sensitive topics (e.g., Israel).
  • Response to Congressional Inquiry:
    • Wales maintains the community’s independence and argues that concerns about editorial bias are misinformed.
    • Quote: "The idea that something being biased is a proper and fit subject for a congressional investigation is frankly absurd." — Jimmy Wales [13:07]

• Right-Wing Critique and Threats:

  • Some conservative organizations and figures, like the Heritage Foundation and Elon Musk, accuse Wikipedia of "ideological bias" or threaten editor safety.
  • Quote: "If you and your policies are at odds with the facts, then you may find it very uncomfortable for people to simply explain the facts." — Jimmy Wales [14:22]
  • Wales rebuffs suggestions to compromise facts or appease ideological pressure.

Case Study: The Charlie Kirk Page Controversy

• Changing Descriptions and Neutrality:
  • Wikipedia changed the language about the late Charlie Kirk in response to complaints, shifting away from labeling to a more neutral summary of his contentious nature.
  • Quote: "I think the least controversial thing you could say about Charlie Kirk is that he was controversial." — Jimmy Wales [16:16]
  • The process and constant debate are highlighted as essential—no page is ever finished and consensus is always iterative.

Attacks by Elon Musk and “Wokipedia”

• Elon Musk’s Public Criticism:
  • Musk has disparaged Wikipedia as "Wokipedia" and threatened to build a ‘neutral’ Grokopedia, while privately, he interacts politely with Wales.
  • Wales points out that high-profile attacks can be counterproductive, discouraging healthy ideological participation and sometimes accidentally helping Wikipedia’s fundraising.
  • Quote: "When he attacks us, people donate more money. So that's not my favorite way of raising money..." — Jimmy Wales [18:29]
  • Wales argues that Wikipedia’s value is in representing the genuine, balanced discourse of humanity, not in appeasing one loud camp.

AI, the Future of Knowledge, and Wikipedia

• Embracing AI Cautiously:

  • Wales sees potential in using AI to support Wikipedia’s community, like checking source support, but warns against relying on AI for content creation due to issues like hallucinations.
  • Quote: "No AI today is competent to write a Wikipedia entry...the hallucination problem is disastrous." — Jimmy Wales [23:15]

• AI-Driven Content Overload:

  • Wikipedia is seeing AI bots use its data and fears the wider internet’s shift to low-quality, AI-generated content will threaten high-quality sources and journalism.
  • Wales acknowledges these trends have not impacted Wikipedia’s reach yet but expresses concern over local news outlets’ viability.
  • Quote: "High quality information that is reliably human produced has become a dwindling and precious commodity." — Wikimedia's Global Trends Report 2025, cited by Garcia Navarro [24:37]

Trust, Journalism, and Objectivity

• Critique of Media’s Drift from Objectivity:
  • Wales believes news outlets’ growing partisanship and focus on short-term audience pandering undermine trust.
  • Quote: "The news media has not done a very good job of sticking to the facts and avoiding bias." — Jimmy Wales [27:48]
  • He calls for a return to a public commitment to objectivity and factual reporting in all domains.

The Not-for-Profit Model and its Advantages

• Wikipedia’s Resistance to Corporate Pressure:
  • Maintaining a non-profit, community-driven model allows Wikipedia to resist commercial or political interference and upholds its commitment to intellectual independence.
  • Popular Response to Elon Musk:
    • "The most successful tweet I ever had...I just wrote, not for sale." — Jimmy Wales [31:34]
  • Wales is proud of this stance, stressing it's not about making billions but about the mission.

Contemporary Challenges and Rival Critiques

• Larry Sanger’s Critique:
  • Co-founder Larry Sanger, now a vocal critic, claims Wikipedia is establishment propaganda. Wales defends the editorial emphasis on quality sources and openness to criticism, without pandering to extremes.
  • Quote: "Wikipedia should always stand ready to accept criticism and change..." — Jimmy Wales [39:36]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On being neutral:
  "We're not about to say, gee, maybe science isn't valid after all. Maybe the COVID vaccine killed half the population. No, it didn't. Like, that's crazy. And we're not going to print that. And so they're going to have to get over it." — Jimmy Wales [14:22]

• On the Wikipedia model:
  "It's a process, it's a discourse, it's a dialogue." — Jimmy Wales [17:28]

• On Wikipedia’s longevity:
  "We'll be here in a hundred years and he [Elon Musk] won't." — Jimmy Wales [22:07]

• On founder independence and not-for-sale status:
  "Not for sale." — Jimmy Wales [31:34]

• On his own Wikipedia browsing habits:
  "Admiral Sir Hugo Pearson, who died in 1912, used to own my house in the countryside….I'm thinking of making a...character [AI assistant]...the ghost of Hugo Pearson." — Jimmy Wales [42:44]

Selected Timestamps

• 02:43 — Trust and its erosion in society
• 03:38 — Wikipedia’s transparency and editorial self-awareness
• 06:15 — Consensus and reporting contentious issues
• 09:08 — Page protection, disruption, and vandalism
• 11:09 — Authoritarian attacks and editor safety
• 13:07 — Responding to Congressional scrutiny
• 14:22 — Handling ideological weaponization and misinformation
• 18:29 — Musk’s attacks and their (sometimes positive) unintended consequences
• 23:15 — AI's limitations for Wikipedia content
• 24:37 — The battle over AI-generated content and its threat to reliable information
• 27:48 — News media and the objectivity crisis
• 31:34 — “Not for sale” and protecting Wikipedia’s independence
• 34:23 — Whether Wikipedia could be created today
• 39:36 — Responding to Sanger’s critique and remaining open to improvement
• 42:44 — Jimmy’s recent Wikipedia searches and quirkiness

Conclusion & Tone

Throughout the episode, Wales champions a commonsense, pragmatic optimism about trust and the persistence of Wikipedia’s values. While acknowledging the polarized, monetized, and AI-driven threats to information quality, he maintains that rigorous transparency, openness to critique, and resistance to profiteering are essential. The conversation is frank, thoughtful, and sometimes wry—demonstrating both the seriousness of contemporary challenges and the quirky, earnest mindset that Wikipedia’s founders brought to the table.

For listeners seeking hope for the internet, or a blueprint for trustworthy public institutions, Wales’s prescription is clear: Trust is built not by perfection but by openness, dialogue, and fierce maintenance of core values—even when the winds of politics or profit blow hardest.