Maggie Gyllenhaal on Envy, Rage and Reaching Out to Her Brother

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Interview – Maggie Gyllenhaal Thinks Hollywood Likes Women to Direct ‘Little Movies’

Podcast: The Interview — The New York Times
Episode: Maggie Gyllenhaal Thinks Hollywood Likes Women to Direct ‘Little Movies’
Date: February 28, 2026
Host: Lulu Garcia-Navarro
Guest: Maggie Gyllenhaal

---

Episode Overview

This episode features actor, screenwriter, and director Maggie Gyllenhaal discussing her creative evolution—from boundary-pushing acting roles to her acclaimed directorial projects, culminating in her new big-budget film, The Bride. Host Lulu Garcia-Navarro explores with Gyllenhaal what it means to direct as a woman in Hollywood, the recurring themes of violence, rage, and female power in her work, her familial and collaborative relationships, and the realities of making ambitious films in a system that often feels limiting for women. The conversation also covers the creative trade-offs of working within the studio system and the vulnerable, exhilarating moment just before a film’s release.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Maggie’s Directorial Journey and the Leap to The Bride

• Inspiration and Fear: Maggie describes being "deeply in process" as a filmmaker, revealing vulnerability and fear before taking on The Bride (02:52–04:27).
  • Quote: “I knew I was going on a major journey starting the Bride. And I was scared. I was actually terrified.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (02:52)
• A moment of feeling overwhelmed in Venice almost led her to consider handing the project to another director, but her husband Peter Sarsgaard encouraged her to do what she truly wanted.

2. Revisiting and Rewriting a Classic Monster Myth

• Enduring Fascination with Monsters: Gyllenhaal reflects on why Frankenstein endures almost a century after the original movie—a reflection on the monstrous sides within all of us (04:53–07:03).
• Realization: The Bride in the original Bride of Frankenstein film was on screen only briefly and wordless, yet achieved iconic status, prompting her to imagine untold stories and censored voices, especially those of women in society and literature (07:24–08:21).

3. Violence, Sexual Violence, and Female Rage

• Navigating Depictions of Violence: Gyllenhaal grapples with criticism about the violence in her film—especially as a woman director—recognizing the double standard compared to male filmmakers (08:32–10:14).
  • Quote: “I just wonder if you had been a man making this movie, if you would have had the same response.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal, quoting a friend (09:06)
• She distinguishes between "stormtrooper" deaths and deaths with emotional consequence, insisting her film honors the real cost of violence.
• Why Explore These Themes? Violence and sexual violence have persisted as themes in her work, but Gyllenhaal frames it as a means to confront reality thoughtfully, not to exploit (10:16–11:46).
  • Quote: “If we’re gonna see it, we need to see it in a way that is very hard to watch because it is very awful.” (10:16)
• From Violence to Rage: Garcia-Navarro connects this to the presence of rage—not just violence—in Gyllenhaal’s work, and Gyllenhaal discusses how rage for women is both necessary and worth interrogating, often covering deep vulnerability and the need to be heard (12:52–14:52).

4. Navigating the Studio System and Creative Compromises

• Gyllenhaal acknowledges that the collaborative process with Warner Brothers was difficult but largely positive. Certain boundaries ("Frankenstein licking black vomit off her neck") were firm, but others ultimately made the film stronger (15:15–17:05).
• She emphasizes an intention throughout to create “something that could be heard by many people,” seeing those pushes as ultimately serving the film.

5. Family and Collaboration

• Directing Jake Gyllenhaal: Discusses the emotional journey of inviting her brother Jake to join the film, marking a new closeness after years of needing “separation” as siblings in the same industry (17:05–19:44).
  • Quote: “I was in, asking him because it meant so much to me, and it meant so much to me to interact with him.” (17:39)
• Working with Husband Peter Sarsgaard: Reflections on the complications and rewards of creative partnerships within marriage, including managing emotions when directing her husband in intimate scenes and drawing boundaries when necessary (20:17–24:40).
• Family Legacy: She shares candid thoughts about the creative tensions she saw in her parents’ marriage and collaboration, and how those experiences impact her choices and boundaries with her own family.

6. Secretary Revisited: Feminism and Artistic Intention

• Gyllenhaal reevaluates her early, breakout film Secretary in relation to modern feminist discourse, emphasizing the importance of female agency and consent, even in relationships others might judge (24:40–26:18).
  • Quote: “Can you allow her to want what she wants if that's what she says she wants...?” (25:54)

7. Envy, Ambition, and the Reality for Women Directors

• She discusses the struggles with envy and competition, especially regarding her brother’s early fame, and her conscious effort to turn envy into solidarity with other female filmmakers (27:50–29:15).
• Hollywood’s Double Standard: Gyllenhaal bluntly observes Hollywood’s comfort with women directing “little movies”—but perceives a deep discomfort when women get “their hands on a lot of money” (29:47–31:33).
  • Quote: “I think that it's fine, like when we make little movies, cute, you know... it starts to get dangerous when women have their hands on a lot of money.” (29:47)
  • She traces a shift in her own voice and ambition to the morning after Trump’s election, a turning point for her creative courage.

8. The Challenge of Attention in Modern Audiences

• Studio Expectations: While she didn’t receive explicit pressure to structure The Bride as per streaming platforms’ formulas, she recognizes and accepts the big “pop” moments needed for wide appeal, and genuinely enjoys rising to those genre challenges (40:27–41:17).
• Gyllenhaal also celebrates the ambiguity and risk of “outside the system” films, but notes the creative opportunity that arose from negotiating with the studio—particularly, collaborating as two women with different roles and agendas (41:39–43:06).

9. Vulnerability Before Release and Embracing Critique

• Gyllenhaal likens the pre-release period to the vulnerable but transformative moments surrounding childbirth (43:41–45:18).
• She acknowledges the hard lesson that excellence and honesty cannot guarantee universal approval, striving now to accept and even embrace that divergence: “some people will light up and love this and some people won’t.” (43:41–45:18)

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Monster Stories:
  “We have monstrous aspects inside of us, Each of us, all of us. I do believe that. And I think we can spend our lives running from those... or we can turn around and shake hands with them.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (04:53)
• On Violence and Studios:
  “I just wonder if you had been a man making this movie, if you would have had the same response.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal, relaying a friend’s comment (09:06) “Every single death has a consequence and a cost.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (09:26)
• On Sexual Violence:
  “If we’re gonna see it... we need to see it in a way that is very hard to watch because it is very awful.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (10:16)
• On Rage:
  “Rage is an umbrella emotion... what’s underneath it is usually very, very vulnerable.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (13:13)
• On Directing in Hollywood:
  “It’s fine when we make little movies, cute... it starts to get dangerous when women have their hands on a lot of money.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (29:47)
• On Growing as a Director:
  “I actually think that when I really became a director was... the morning that Trump was first elected, I think I was like, I have a lot more to say than I've been saying.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (31:33)
• On Artistic Freedom:
  “It was so important to me on the Bride was to create real freedom for all of the artists who were working on it, not just my actors.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (36:18)
• On Critical Reception:
  “I naively believed that if I was honest enough and excellent enough, that everybody would love it. And that is just not ever going to be true.” — Maggie Gyllenhaal (43:41)

---

Important Timestamps

• Maggie’s directorial fear and process: 02:52–04:27
• Origins of The Bride and monster mythology: 04:53–08:21
• Violence & sexual violence, and confronting reality: 08:32–11:46
• Rage, vulnerability, and female experience: 12:52–14:52
• Navigating the studio system, working with Warner Bros.: 15:15–17:05
• Family collaborations & healing with brother Jake: 17:05–19:44
• Impact of envy and solidarity among women filmmakers: 27:50–29:15
• Hollywood's double standard: "little movies" vs. big budgets: 29:47–31:33
• Evolving feminist thought and Secretary: 24:40–26:18
• Studio notes, action sequences, attention spans: 40:27–41:17
• Vulnerability before public release: 43:41–45:18

---

Memorable Moments

• Maggie nearly dropped out as director of The Bride due to anxiety, only to be talked through it by her husband Peter (03:17).
• She describes the emotionally charged process of inviting her brother Jake to appear in The Bride, marking new levels of family closeness (17:39).
• Gyllenhaal candidly addresses the reality of being a woman in Hollywood, challenging the industry's comfort with “little movies” by women versus unease when women are handed larger projects and control (29:47).
• Host and guest share an open moment on artistic envy and the power of reaching out to other women filmmakers as an antidote to competition (27:56).
• Gyllenhaal’s analogy of filmmaking to childbirth, capturing the delicacy and excitement of releasing an extremely personal project into the world (43:41).

---

Tone & Language

The conversation is raw, vulnerable, and intellectually probing. Gyllenhaal is frank about her insecurities, ambitions, and philosophical perspectives, never shying away from the complexity of her art or the realities of gendered expectations in Hollywood. Lulu Garcia-Navarro’s questions are empathetic yet incisive, inviting Gyllenhaal to reflect deeply and honestly on herself and her work.

---

For anyone interested in the intersections of gender, power, artistic ambition, and the evolving opportunities (and limitations) for women directing major films, this episode is essential listening—and a testament to Maggie Gyllenhaal's fierce artistic vision and honesty.

Transcript

[Deloitte Narrator]

A biotech firm scaled AI responsibly. A retailer reclaimed hours lost to manual work. An automaker now spots safety issues faster. While these organizations are vastly different, what they have in common sets them apart. They all worked with Deloitte to help them integrate AI and drive impact for their businesses. Because Deloitte focuses on building what works, not just implementing what's new. The right teams, the right. The right services and solutions. That is how Deloitte's clients stand out. Deloitte together makes progress.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

From the New York Times, this is the interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Maggie Gyllenhaal has always had this kind of fascination with the darker side of sex and love. Her breakout role as a young actor came with her award winning performance in the 2002 film Secretary, where she's a troubled woman who embarks on a sadomasochistic relationship with her boss. In Crazy Heart, she played a young mother who falls in love with an older, alcoholic country singer. That role earned her an Oscar nomination. And in the series the Deuce, she starred as a sex worker who becomes a director of pornographic films. That last role made her want to be a director in real life, too. And so in 2021, she won acclaim with her feature directorial debut, the Lost Daughter, about the taboo feelings some women feel over motherhood. For me, the through line in all her work is a desire to tell the stories of women who live outside conventional boundaries. Enter her newest film, the Bride, an imaginative retelling of the story of the Bride of Frankenstein starring Jessie Buckley, which Gyllenhaal both wrote and directed. The film is part love story, part crime caper with some surreal musical numbers thrown in. But Gyllenhaal's signature themes of sexual violence, female power and transgression undergird it all. Here's my conversation with Maggie Gyllenhaal. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you coming to the interview.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

It really is my pleasure.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

You know, it's interesting to me because I interviewed you in 2019 for the Deuce and in that interview you said to me, playing that role where she, your character, becomes a director of pornography, but a director nonetheless. It's like a real journey. You said that that had made you realize that you would also be a director. And I was wondering now sitting here with this big budget movie, you know, where you're at in that kind of evolution.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I mean, I feel like I'm deeply like in process. That's how I feel. You know, I feel like, like I knew I was going on a major journey starting the Bride. And I was scared. I was actually terrified. And to be honest, I remember. I mean, I don't know, it's interesting that I'm sharing this, but, like, I remember being at Venice with Peter.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Peter Sarsgrd, your husband.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

My husband, who had a movie there and feeling so scared about the prospect of directing the Bride. And we went to a lovely restaurant that we'd booked. We were so excited for. We knew it. And I remember feeling so anxious and getting up and going to the bathroom, looking at myself in the mirror and thinking, oh, I don't have to direct this. I can let someone else direct it. I've written it, I've cast it, I've conceived of it. Oh, I don't have to do this. And I came back to the table and I said to Peter, I don't know if I'm gonna do it. I feel so relieved. And he was like, you don't have to do it, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't. But I feel having come out the other side and only really having finished it in October, it's February now. Like, I went on a trip. I learned so much, and now I'm on the trip of putting it out into the world.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Well, let's talk about the Bride, because I think it's an incredible film, and it tells the story of the Bride of Frankenstein's monster. And you have said that you were Inspired by the 1930s movie original. This is almost a century later. Why are we still so interested in monsters and Frankenstein? And what was it for you that seemed so enduring about that story?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Yeah, I mean, I think we have monstrous aspects inside of us, Each of us, all of us. I do believe that. And I think we can spend our lives running from those really, truly monstrous aspects of ourselves, or. Or we can turn around and shake hands with them. And that's terrifying. And that's the kind of monstrousness I was curious about and interested in Frankenstein as a piece of cultural mythology. I actually hadn't read the book. I mean, I'll tell you how it all came to me. I was getting kind of pitched IP after the Lost Daughter, you know, like, maybe you want to do a Marvel movie or whatever. And I had made this little, tiny movie, really left alone, like, almost entirely. It was cheap enough that. And it was Covid. And they sort of forgot about us. That's what I think when I look back on it. But it made an impact. And I thought, I don't know how many more opportunities I'll have to make a film. I want to do something bigger. And I also thought the Lost Daughter hit a little vein where other people could relate to something that hadn't been talked about that much before. And I thought, what if you could do the same thing, but, like, on a pop level, on, like, a big level? What would happen? This was my question to myself. And as I was thinking about this and thinking, okay, I better think of something quick, because who knows how long I'll be able to finance a movie. I saw this guy with a Bride of Frankenstein tattoo on his arm, the Elsa Lanchester hairdo profile. And I was like, who is that again? And I looked her up and I was like, oh, yeah, her.

[Advertisement Voice]

Whoa.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

She's got some, like, wild energy. Just the image. I hadn't seen the movie. I watched the movie, and I was like, oh, the Bride of Frankenstein is a Frankenstein movie. There's almost nothing to do with the Bride of Frankenstein.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

She's like a prop.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

She's in it for three minutes less, maybe, and she doesn't say one word. But somehow she has entered the cultural mythology, even though she doesn't get to speak. And I do. I don't know. My fantasy. It's just my fantasy, and I've been taken to task for this, is that I don't know if Mary Shelley got everything she wanted to say out with Frankenstein. I love the book. The book is brilliant. Obviously, you know, it's one of, like, what, five books published that were written by women in the 19th century. I know I'm exaggerating, but, like, you know, not easy to do. And so how did she have to censor herself in order to get that book published? That's my. Kind of. Was my major question in the movie.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

This is, you know, quite a violent film. It's visceral. It's bloody. I'm wondering what you were tapping into with that.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Yeah, I have kind of a lot to say about this, actually. I've been thinking about this. Yes, there's sexual violence. There's violence. Violence. You know, because it's a big studio movie, we, like, tested and tested it. We had, you know, big screenings in malls and stuff where people came to see it, which I had never been a part of as an actress or a director before. Oh, interesting. So fascinating.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

I want to hear about that. But get finish this.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

No, I'm going to. But one of the things that they. That was brought up was the violence. Is it too violent by the people going to see it?

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Yeah.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

And I was talking about it with A girlfriend of mine who said she wasn't being reductive. She's just like, I'm just curious. I just wonder if you had been a man making this movie, if you would have had the same response. Just about the. Just straight violence.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Yeah. I'm thinking of a lot of directors off the top of my head whose signature is that kind of violence. Right.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

And I was asked to take some of it out, and I did. So what you're seeing is even a little bit pulled back from what was originally in the movie. One of the things I think that was important to me is that everybody who is killed is hurt. We, at least for a moment, get to know them. So there's the sort of stormtrooper version of killing people where they have white masks on and you don't know who they are. And then there's the version where. Which was very important to me in this movie. Every single death has a consequence and a cost. Every single one. But the other thing I really want to talk about, I want to talk about the sexual violence, because that's another thing that I have been taken to task for, and I do.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Taken to task by whom?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Again? Just by, like, reading the things in the test screenings. I'm interested in this. I really am. I'm really curious. You know, so I had a couple of women, because, you know, you don't know who it is, of course, but you know, it's a woman. You know what age they are. Say, I don't want to see a woman being violated. And I think I also don't want to see that. And yet that is a major reality in the culture that we're living in. And so if we're gonna see it, which in this movie, we do need to see it, we need to see it in a way that is very hard to watch because it is very awful. And if you know anything about me, you know, I mean, if you looked at any of my work, I mean, so much of my work, even starting with Secretary when I was 22, all the way through this is something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about, doing myself, considering. And I am sure that in the process of both writing, shooting, and cutting this movie, that I have been thoughtful and very considerate about this particular subject, and yet it will be hard to watch. And I think we can take it. I think we can.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

You have just articulated something which I think is very true about your work, which is this has been a persistent theme, and I guess I want to understand why.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Mm. Well, like what part exactly?

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Well, the idea of violence towards women. What is it that has drawn you over and over again to that subject?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I mean, there is a piece of this. This is a piece of what the movie is about.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

I understand.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

But also, and I think with all of these movies, like, oh, say, think about the Deuce, Sex worker, turned director, but director of porn. But really she's a woman with a mind. And like, all of these movies really, I think, are about women with a mind. You know, like, even think about secretary, which is a very complicated one, which we can get into if you want. But I was going to. I don't know. To me, in some ways the violence is like, beside the point.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

It's not the violence, it's the rage.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Oh, it's the rage, yeah, sorry.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

That's what I connect to.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

That's interesting.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

To me. It's not the violence, it's the rage against the violence that's so interesting.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I was just talking about rage yesterday.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

I love rage. So this is coming from someone who's very rageful.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Well, I was thinking about rage and thinking about this teacher I had who was just a major, major teacher to me. Her name was Penny Allen. She's dead, but she used to say rage is an umbrella emotion. And what she meant was what's underneath it. And I think what's underneath it is usually very, very vulnerable. And I don't know, there's so much to say about rage because, like, for women, in so many ways, like, let's not skip rage, you know, like, we have a right to it. But I am also. I am also really curious about what's underneath it. I do feel angry about all sorts of things, you know, and feel a lot of vulnerability underneath that and just need and a desire to be heard. And I hope that, you know, the people in the test screening who said, I don't want to see this, and I know what they meant. I know they meant enough of this in a gratuitous way. None of us want to see it, but, like, let's look at it together with thoughtfulness and care. And also, like, there's joy. There's real joy in this movie.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

There was reporting around it being sort of a difficult process once, you know, at the end with Warner Brothers, because of some of the things you talked about, the way it tested. Were there a lot of changes? Was it difficult to sort of work through the big budget studio system to get to the other side of that?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Yeah, it was difficult, but not like, not in a bad way. It was just Very new for me, and I was very interested. Like, I loved working with Pam Abdy, who runs Warner Brothers, along with Mike DeLuca. Both of them were there, but I think both of them would say, this was really me and Pam. And I knew she understood me, and I knew she understood what I was saying. And there would be times where she would be like, maggie, you cannot have Frankenstein lick black vomit off of the bride's neck. It's just too much. You just can't do it. But she understood why I wanted it, you know, it's not like she was someone who didn't hear me and couldn't understand me.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Do you think it can dilute, though, the vision of something? Cause I've heard other creators talk about, you know, that process and how. And also how many movies have been made about, like, the Hollywood, you know, system that sort of saps the creative vision till it becomes this, you know, palatable thing.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

What I now am putting out into the world. I think the places where Pam really pushed me to let go of things, to be honest, I really do think that they served the movie ultimately. And my goal from the very beginning was to try to open a bigger vein, was to tell the truth about something that could be heard by many people. So I really think Pam helped me to do that, and she never pretended she was doing anything else. Hmm.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

This film was also a family affair, which I found really fun to watch. Obviously, your brother Jake is in the film. This is the first time you directed him. I'm wondering how that went, being the older sibling. How did that feel?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Well, Jake, I waited until I was absolutely sure that asking him to do this part in the movie, it's a pretty small part. It's just a little. It's just a cameo, really, but. But asking him the fun part.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Yeah, he dances, he sings. He's a matinee idol, you know.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Yeah. I made sure I really did some work and thinking to make sure that it was the right thing to do to ask him. And then when I knew that it was, because I did come to the conclusion that it was. It was both. I remember asking him and, like, tearing up, I called him and I waited too long so that he had to learn those songs and dances and stuff really quickly. But that was a rookie mistake. But anyway, I, I, I teared up. I remember just alone in this hotel room. I was in, asking him because it meant so much to me, and it meant so much to me to interact with him. Why I think I have in the past had to sort of like, be separate from my family, from my brother. Like, cool. I got my own thing going. I think I did have to do that. I mean, we both started so young. And I think it was, you know, it was just a really honest, vulnerable, like, what's underneath? Rage, reaching out. Just basically saying, I want to interact. And I know that this is a place where we can do it. Like, I'm not asking him to do something that he can't do. I'm making, like, an offer, which is a generous thing to do.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

An invitation.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Yeah. And just with love.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Have you two been estranged?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

No. No, we've never been estranged. But we've never been as close as we are now. You know, I think we're, like, finally in, I don't know, maybe the last five years. Although more and more and more, even each day, really interacting, which is hard for people to do.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

The other thing I was thinking about the family dynamics is with your husband, who you have worked with before.

[Deloitte Narrator]

Yeah.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Your parents, obviously were filmmakers. Your mother was a screenwriter, your father was a director. And you've said that them working together might have caused their ultimate separation because it's hard to work with family members. And I just wondered if, when you are working with Peter, if that's in your mind, if you're thinking about that, the sort of fraughtness of maybe embarking on those family relationships while you're working.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I don't think that them working together caused their separation, but I don't think it was good for them. Right. Like, I think it was a bad idea. And they did it a few times. It is complicated working with my husband. We've done it in all sorts of ways. We did it as actors together on stage in two Chekhov plays. And it was, like, hard and awesome. Like, I remember playing Masha, which is one of the parts I'm most proud of, with Peter playing version. And I had the fantasy. I was young, I was, like, 33, that Masha and Vershinin and three sisters were, like, the love affair of all time. And that is not what my husband thought.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

I was like, so you totally understood it.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I was like, differently. I was like, what? Why are you so withholding? Like, why? Why? Why make that choice? You know? And I was hurt personally by, like, the artistic choice he was making. But Penny, our mutual teacher that I was mentioning before, she said to me, that play is when I really started to learn how to work. And she was like, you may wish that that's the relationship that you had. Okay, so now Masha wishes that but that is not the relationship that you're actually having to contend with on stage. So contend with that relationship. So that was great. And both exciting and difficult. Then we did the Lost Daughter, where he has, like, a really hot love affair with Jesse Buckley.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Yes, he does.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Which was very complicated, too. And at first, I almost didn't give him the part because of that.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Mm.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I was like, I don't need that part. Also, along with directing a movie for the first time.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

And how did you talk through that?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I actually offered it to somebody else first. Wow. And I knew he was hurt, even though we hadn't really talked about him playing it. We might have. And I remember speaking to both my best girlfriend and to this teacher, and both of them were like, you can't manage this, can you really not? And I was like, no, I think I can, actually. I think I can. I think I can manage it and actually really want Peter to play this part.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

And what was it actually like?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Hmm. Oh, my God. It was so many things. I mean, it was like he was so good in the Lost Daughter. He was so brilliant, and so was Jesse. And watching them together and egging them each on from a very, like, unconnected, emotionally place. Okay, try this. Try this. Not just in the sex, but in the. I mean, this wasn't at all about the sex. This was about the courtship, which was so hot. And pushing them and pushing them and watching them create as, like, real actors have to, like, create the love. Do it. It's okay. So they did that. I watched them do that. I'm like, okay. When I get, like, a second to stop, it's a little hard, but we have to keep going. We have to keep going. Then we get to, like, the sexy stuff. And I remember my cinematographer, who was amazing, we shoot the scene on the steps where they're kissing and all this stuff, and I was sort of, like, very, like, just looking at it. Okay, wait. There's the light on her leg in the right way. And, like, if. Maybe if we just pan this way. Very removed. And we got it. And then Helene says, oh, I was gonna do my French acts. My French, Helene, do your French, Helene. I censored myself at the last minute anyway, she's like, oh, no, this will not do. There is a wine glass on the steps. It is so bad. It is so bad. We have to do it again. And I was like, we do. We have to do it again. Okay. So it was hard a little. It's also so full of life. And I completely trust Jesse. We haven't even talked about her. She is. We say. I mean, she's like a s. And I completely trust Peter. So it was kind of like it just. Just created life.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

We touched a little bit on the film Secretary, and I rewatched it. I loved that film when it came out. At the time, you said it was a feminist film. Would you say it's a feminist film now?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

It's funny. I also rewatched it recently. They played it in the little town that we live in in Vermont as a part of, like, a film thing they were doing. So I watched it, like, a few years ago, but it's not right on the tip of my mind. I mean, what is a feminist film?

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

So that was exactly the question, Maggie, that I was going to ask.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I mean, right.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Yes.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I mean, the thing about Secretary, I think, at least as I intended it, was that it was consensual that she wanted that erotic relationship with her boss. And so who is anyone else to tell her that that is not allowed? So then the movie asks, like, can you make that true even in this situation? You know, can you tolerate with a

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

boss who's older and a young woman who is coming out of a mental institution and damage.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Can you. Can you. Can you allow her to want what she wants if that's what she says she wants, even in those circumstances? I don't know. That's the question. And I haven't seen it recently enough to say whether I can, but I think that's what I was trying to stir up at the time. Can she have what she wants, even if it's not what you would want?

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Hmm. The idea of you as a young actor, you were seen as this sort of cool girl, you know, young actress who was willing to sort of push boundaries. And I'm wondering what was, you know, at 23, having that sense of, like, you wanted to stir something up? What was going on there?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Well, I don't think back then, although maybe in other ways I wanted to push boundaries just for the sake of it, maybe. But in my work, I think, at least looking back on it from here, like, I think I wanted similar things. I think I wanted to make people think and not just think, like, feel into thinking. Secretary was also the first time I really expressed my artistic self. I hadn't had a. Like, a template, a palette. Like, I hadn't had the space, so that kind of attention was tied up with that. Also, I met Peter when that movie came out, like, right around then. So it was like falling in love, finding some voice as an Artist, which obviously shifted and changed throughout my career and grew and everything, but that was the first time. So this is kind of like just like a moment of life, like a. Like a little explosion in a lot of ways. And I wasn't well known at that point. Jake was.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Yeah, I mean, I imagine there was sibling rivalry to see your brother have success and you trying to sort of

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

make your way, you know, in general, I am very interested in envy. I think there's a reason why it's a seven deadly sin. You know, I've been interested in it in terms of watching other people's movies come out. Admiration versus envy. What creates it? I think it's usually feeling starving, like you don't have enough even in general. I don't know her well, but I know Emerald Fennell a little, whose movie is about to come out. Wuthering Heights. Wuthering Heights. I reached out to her. Oh, and I just said, how are you doing? You know, how are you doing with all of this? And just the act of reaching out to her and she's great. Like, she's great. Frees the competition up. Like you go, no, no, no, no. We're actually 100% on the same team. There absolutely is enough to go around. But I don't think I knew that at first. When I was young and Jake was a movie star right away, I don't think I knew that. I don't think I was in touch with the envy, but it was there.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

So we've been talking about being a female director and I was thinking about this moment because on the one hand, we've had all these interesting films come out just this year. Chloe Zhao with Hamnet, Lynne Ramsey with Die My Love, Kristen Stewart with the Chronology of Water. But on the other hand, there's only 8% of films that were made by women and that's a seven year low. I mean, what do you think that says?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I don't know. I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about whether to say this, Say it. I think that it's fine, like when we make little movies, cute, you know, or like go make your little movie. Starts to get dangerous when women have their hands on a lot of money. I mean, it still doesn't really entirely answer your question, you know, about how few women are given the space, the real estate to express ourselves. And look, you're saying, you know what you're saying. You're saying it's a tiny percentage, but look at how many of those movies were movies that made an impact. Like if You've had your mouth shut for so long, almost like a geyser having your hand on something. Well, when it bursts, it's gonna come out really powerfully and with a lot of energy. And I wonder if what's happening culturally is gonna. Okay, I will say one thing about this. It's gonna bring, like, an unstoppable response, maybe especially from women. I will say, and I don't know if I've said this out loud before again, maybe I'll get in trouble. But I actually think that when I really became a director was actually, I think the first time that the morning that Trump was first elected, I think I was like, I have a lot more to say than I've been saying.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Tell me what that means.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Well, you know, actually, I was thinking about. I was thinking about Kristen Stewart's interview on this show. It made an impact in my community. I remember Jesse asked me, did you hear Kristen Stewart's interview? And I went and listened to it, and I was thinking about it in a lot of ways. I was thinking about her idea that being an actress, submissive, very interesting idea. And I was also thinking about something that she said, which is that she hadn't heard of a method actor who's a woman. And I know she didn't quite mean that. I want to talk to her. I don't know her very well, but in fact, I just worked with Ellen Burstyn, who's 93, so studied with Lee Strasberg and is absolutely a method actress. I know that's not what Kristin meant. I don't think that's what she meant in my watching it and interpreting it. But I think what being a method actor, to me, because my teacher, this teacher I keep bringing up, also studied at the Actors Studio with Lee Strasberg, is about bringing yourself into your work. That's not exactly submissive. And in my experience as an actress, I really had to learn to sometimes convince everyone I was being submissive and radically get my own artistic. Just myself expressed otherwise, like, why am I doing it? You know? And I think what I mean is that I think I came to a point at a certain point where I was like, I can't keep playing that game. And something about that time made me do it, made me say, okay, I am terrified. I was terrified, and I'm gonna do it anyway.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

I want to thank you so much. This has been really delightful. I've really enjoyed it.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Thank you. Me too.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

After the break, Maggie and I speak again, and she shares some of the best direction she's ever received as an actress from a legendary director.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

He sort of took me aside after the first read through and he said, come here. Just one thing. She's feral. A spectacle far beyond your imagination. Be amazed, be moved. Be there. For an experience that will stay with you forever. Disney's the Lion King on Broadway get [e-mail] when you use the trusted investing

[Betterment Advertisement Voice]

and savings app Betterment to help grow your money. Automatically you have more time for new niche hobbies like collecting miniatures. The joy that brings helps you sleep better at night and even motivates you to always use your PM moisturizer. Now you've got a dewy glow and a sense of balance to match, not worrying where your money is growing. That's the Betterment effect. Get started [e-mail] investing involves risk, performance

[Advertisement Voice]

not guaranteed Every business is asking the same question. How do we make AI work for us? No more waiting with NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today. NetSuite is the 1 AI Cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It's the unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM into a single source of truth. That connected data is what makes your AI smarter, helping you make fast decisions. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures. Get our free business guide Demystifying [e-mail] NYT.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

So good to see you again.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Yeah, you too.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

So I went back after our interview and I rewatched the Dark Night after we talked because it was on my mind since we spoke a lot about you taking on this sort of big budget movie. And I guess that movie had to have been the biggest budget film you were ever a part of. I mean, it was like such of a huge event and I was kind of wondering what that experience taught you about how to harness all those resources from inside the studio system.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Well, I mean, acting in it is, in a big, huge budget movie is very different than directing one. What I did think was it's hard to be free in a movie of that size because there are so many other aspects as an actor, so many other aspects that can sometimes feel like they take precedent. VFX, the massive day, the 400 extras, whatever it is, and Heath Ledger really, really managed to find that humanity and freedom inside of that really big movie. And I will say that that was one of the most important things to me on the Bride was to create real freedom for all of the artists who were working on it, not just my actors. That was a major priority for me,

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

I guess I am curious about your own experience where that wasn't what happened to you.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I would say, as an actress, to be honest, it is way more rare to find an environment, a situation where you feel seen, respected and loved than one where you don't. Yeah, that's my experience. But I had to learn how to do it without it. And I see so many actors walk on set with that mindset. I do. I feel like many actors walk on set like, okay, I'm probably gonna get nothing here. And I think that I have such a wish and a hope for interaction and connection. And I think I often had to let go of having that in a really deep way with a director. I mean, there are exceptions, and there are times when I had it. And those people, I did my best work with them probably. I mean, I worked with Mike Nichols for one day as an actress in a reading of a play that we did on stage in New York. And he gave me probably one of the best directions I've ever received. And I knew that he wanted my mind in this. I was playing Marie Curie, and he said. He sort of took me aside after the first read through and he said, come here. He said just one thing. She's feral.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

It's a great direction.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

It's a great direction because it has no end in mind. It's just basically saying. Or no particular end in mind. He's basically saying the wildest secret stuff in you. I want it. And I mean, what an incredible thing, you know?

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

All right, so you are making this big budget movie at a moment when the industry's really struggling and attention spans are hard to capture, studios are consolidating. And I read two articles that really chilled me. One was about how film school students can't even focus enough to know the ending of a two hour film. And these are film school students. And then I saw Matt Damon recently told Joe Rogan that Netflix wants its filmmakers to restate the plot of the movie four times for people who are double screening. And to include double screening.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Oh, like looking on their phone, double

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

screen while watching the thing. So you have to sort of restate it. Restate it so that people, you know, who aren't really following along can kind of jump back in. And that they also need to include a big action sequence in the first five minutes to capture the audience's attention. And I'm just sort of wondering what

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I think was that?

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

No, first of all, what you think, but also, was any of that advice given to you?

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

You know, what's so funny about the Bride is just so naturally. It's based on a really famous piece of ip. There's a big action sequence in the first eight minutes, you know, I mean, I mean, I guess I feel. No, that advice was not given to me explicitly. But I mean, look, I know it's up. I'm not gonna, like, say I'm making the Bride of Frankenstein and then like, go make a super indie movie that's like, you know? You know what I mean? Like, I. I'm using the tools that I've been required to use. That's like part of the puzzle, you know? And I like them. I mean, that's the thing. I don't think you can fake it. I think if you don't like the Hollywood stuff, I think people will smell a rat, you know, I like it, I like it. I just also.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

What do you like about. What do you like about it? Because I really thought a lot about this, you saying that. I was thinking about ambition and working inside and outside of the hollyw. And you were pretty clear that the studio made the Bride better. You felt like their input actually improved things, which is not something I think I hear very often.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I mean, listen, I have a big streak in me that is totally outside the box artistically. So I also like that. I mean, I really do. I love, like, watching some. I mean, you know the feeling when you're watching a movie with a kid and the kid says, who's that? What's that? What's happening? And you say, none of us know yet. We all have to hold not knowing yet. And, you know, movies that are often outside the studio system ask you to hold that feeling for a long time. And I love that, you know, where you have to engage your own mind, your own heart to decide who you think that is and whether you think they're a good guy or a bad guy. I love that. But for me to have built and been allowed to build at this big studio a movie that checked the boxes for them in terms of the ip, in terms of the action, the love story in so many ways, but also be able to tell it in an unusual outside the box way with real freedom, and then have to come up against someone very smart. I'm talking about Pam Abdy with a different point of view and a slightly different agenda. We then together, two women had to interact, compromise, get inside of each other's minds to ultimately create a movie together that I think both of us feel really proud of.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

When we started this conversation, I got this really Strong sense of someone who's like, on the cusp of this big adventure that they're about to have. And I imagine now you're in LA and you're just about to go on the big press tour and it's gonna get released into the. And the critics are gonna see it. And I'm always so interested in that moment, right? The in between time before the world comes in. And I'm just wondering where you're at, what you're thinking right now before this next big thing happens for you.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

I feel sort of simultaneously like somebody who just had a baby and someone who is about to have a baby. Like I, you know, that super vulnerable time in between having had a baby, but being ready to go out in the world. I have delivered my baby, right? I mean, I'm finished with the movie and I have been coming back into myself even, like, to the point of, like, now my jeans fit, you know, like. And at the same time, I know that the world hasn't really seen it, so I'm kind of in both places at once. But I want to say one other thing about this, which is that when I started this process, even though I've put a lot of movies out into the world at this point, I naively believed that if I was honest enough and excellent enough, that everybody would love it. And that is just not ever going to be true. And it's late in life to learn that or to be in the process of learning that. But I guess I'm interested in how to embrace, tolerate, even be proud of the ways in which some people will light up and love this and some people won't.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Maggie Gyllenhaal, thank you so much. I have really, really enjoyed our time together.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Thank you so much.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

That's Maggie Gyllenhaal. Her movie the Bride, is in theaters starting March 6th. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube [e-mail] the Interview Podcast. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme. It was edited by Annabel Bacon, mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Beitu and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Seth Kelly, Paola Neudorf, Joe, Bill Munoz, David Hurricane, Kathleen o' Brien and Brooke Minters. Our executive producer is Alison Benedikt. Next week, David talks to author Rebecca Solnit about finding hope in seemingly dire times. I often feel that a lot of pessimism, despair, doomerism comes from not knowledge

[Advertisement Voice]

about the future, but from lack of

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

knowledge about the past.

[Maggie Gyllenhaal]

Despair and amnesia go hand in hand,

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

and so do hope and memory. Hi, I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from the New York Times.

[Advertisement Voice]

Every business is asking the same question. How do we make AI work for us? No more waiting with NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work. Today, NetSuite is the number one AI Cloud ERP, trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It's the unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM into a single source of truth. That connected data is what makes your AI smarter, helping you make fast decisions. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide demystifying [e-mail] NYT.