Podcast Summary:

The Interview (The New York Times)

Episode: Michael Pollan Says Humanity Is About to Undergo a Revolutionary Change

Date: February 7, 2026

Host: David Marchese

Guest: Michael Pollan

Episode Overview

In this episode, host David Marchese speaks with Michael Pollan, acclaimed author of "The Omnivore's Dilemma," "How to Change Your Mind," and the new book "A World: A Journey into Consciousness." Their wide-ranging conversation explores the nature, origins, and significance of consciousness—touching on philosophical debates, the impact of artificial intelligence, moral and social implications of attributing consciousness to non-humans and machines, and Pollan’s personal insights through psychedelics and meditation. The second part briefly pivots to Pollan’s views on nutrition, skepticism in science, and the challenges of discerning truth in a fractured media era.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Consciousness (02:17–03:40)

• Pollan defines consciousness as "experience or subjective experience," also summarized as awareness.
• Cites philosopher Thomas Nagel's concept: Anything it is 'like' to be (e.g. a bat) is conscious; if there is subjective experience, consciousness exists.
  • “If we can imagine it is like anything to be a bat, then a bat is conscious.” — Michael Pollan (02:34)

2. The "Hard Problem" of Consciousness (03:40–07:04)

• The "hard problem" (per David Chalmers): How does objective matter (neurons, brain tissue) give rise to subjective experience?
• Current science offers many theories but no decisive answers:
  • “There’s something like 22 theories in play right now, which tells you the field is flailing, I think.” — Michael Pollan (06:42)
• Science’s inherent subjectivity problem: "Our science is itself a form of consciousness. Consciousness is one of the subjects you cannot get outside of to get an objective view..." (05:48)

3. Evolutionary and Alternative Theories (07:04–08:40)

• Marchese suggests evolutionary purposes: information integration, decision-making, social interaction.
• Alternative theories considered, such as panpsychism (consciousness is a fundamental aspect of all matter).
  • “You have to expand your sense of the plausible when you’re looking at consciousness, I’m afraid.” — Michael Pollan (08:22)

4. Why Does Consciousness Matter? (08:41–10:21)

• Marchese asks why the philosophizing about consciousness is relevant to daily life.
• Pollan’s response: Consciousness is now a “pressing issue” due to the rise of AI and new findings about animal consciousness.
• We face a "Copernican moment" where the unique status of human consciousness is challenged.

5. Moral and Ethical Implications (10:21–12:26)

• If we recognize animal (and possible plant) consciousness, would it impact our behavior or ethics?
• Pollan is skeptical: “We exploit the hell out of other human beings all the time.”
• Moral consideration doesn’t follow automatically from consciousness; society inconsistently grants 'personhood.'

6. AI and Consciousness (12:26–17:23)

• Pollan doubts AI can be truly conscious: Consciousness is rooted in ‘feelings’—bodily monitoring expressed via emotions, not logical processing.

  • “Our consciousness depends on embodiment…if you think feelings are at the center of consciousness, it’s very hard to imagine how a machine could rise to that level.” (13:41)

• Discussion of Turing Test and AI self-reports of consciousness, and why it's insufficient as proof.

• Lack of “friction with reality” in AI—they lack direct experience, unlike humans.

• Social consequences: People form deep attachments with AI because they’re frictionless and validating.

  “It’s easier to have a relationship with a chatbot than another human…They just suck up to us and convince us how brilliant we are, and we fall for it.” — Michael Pollan (16:56)

7. Religion, Buddhism, and Transcendence (17:23–20:33)

• Pollan draws on Buddhist philosophy: Buddhism offers tools and wisdom on the self and consciousness.
• Practices such as meditation, psychedelics, and ecstatic experiences can help transcend the ego.
• “Some of the highest experiences of life are these moments where we transcend the self. And that’s curious, too.” — Michael Pollan (18:32)
• Transcending the ego doesn’t eliminate consciousness—suggesting the ego is a construct, not the whole self.

8. Psychedelics, Meditation, and Self-Knowledge (20:33–23:08)

• Pollan’s personal psychedelic use: Rare, guided, and used for introspection.

• Describes a profound, somewhat difficult guided psychedelic experience that only revealed its meaning weeks later during meditation.

  “All I could do—and I knew that, you know, you can’t resist these things—so I just felt them…The answer to what they were came two weeks later… [It was] fear of losing some people very close to me.” (21:41–22:32)

9. Destabilizing Queries and Avoidance (23:08–25:23)

• Marchese notes the risk of over-examining consciousness—can be destabilizing or paralyzing.
• Pollan agrees: Some avoid introspection by seeking distraction; facing the mind’s depth “takes a willingness to risk something.”

Second Segment: Nutrition Science, Skepticism, and Self

10. Nutrition, RFK Jr., and the “Maha” Movement (27:57–30:18)

• Pollan reflects on nutrition science in the face of wellness skepticism and political movements favoring “meat-first” diets.
• Rejects anti-scientific food fads, points to environmental costs of meat, and calls for caution with public health and vaccine skepticism.
  • “Eating real food is not going to protect you from the measles. And you have to take everything RFK Jr. is doing to public health in its entirety. I fear more people will die because of his vaccine ideas than will be saved because of his food ideas.” — Michael Pollan (30:08)

11. Employing Skepticism About Science & Authority (30:18–32:02)

• Pollan suggests skepticism should be discerning, not wholesale rejection. Journalists have access to experts, but laypersons must read beyond sensational headlines and seek the follow-up stories.
• “Don’t be overwhelmed by the first-day story…the second and third-day stories sometimes qualify things…” (31:37)

12. Self, Identity, and the Illusion of Soul (32:08–37:00)

• Pollan doesn’t “believe in a soul” as indestructible essence, but sees consciousness as a secular stand-in for the soul—a focus, especially as people age.
• The “self” may be an illusion, yet it provides functional day-to-day continuity.
  • “Matthew Ricard said…it’s like a river has a name…But there’s nothing consistent there. It’s just water passing.” (34:10)
• Memory and the construction of self (citing Michael Levin): Our memories are fluid, actively rewritten to suit our present selves.
  • “We are hacking our memory constantly to construct the self that is useful to us now…Maybe that’s what consciousness is: someone using experience to construct a self.” (36:26)

13. Consciousness as a Political and Existential Issue (37:00–39:10)

• Pollan believes consciousness is more relevant than ever; current politics (especially “Trump’s pollution of attention”) threaten our capacity for agency and freedom of thought.

• Consciousness hygiene is essential for mental and political well-being.

  “Consciousness is being polluted in a certain way…It’s a very precious realm. It’s the realm of our privacy and our freedom, our freedom to think.” — Michael Pollan (38:26)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "If we can imagine it is like anything to be a bat, then a bat is conscious." — Michael Pollan (02:34)
• "There’s something like 22 theories in play right now, which tells you the field is flailing, I think." (06:42)
• "You have to expand your sense of the plausible when you’re looking at consciousness, I’m afraid." (08:22)
• "Our consciousness depends on embodiment…if you think feelings are at the center…hard to imagine how a machine could rise to that level." (13:41)
• "It’s easier to have a relationship with a chatbot than another human…They just suck up to us and convince us how brilliant we are, and we fall for it." (16:56)
• "Some of the highest experiences of life are these moments where we transcend the self." (18:32)
• "Eating real food is not going to protect you from the measles…more people will die because of his vaccine ideas than will be saved because of his food ideas." (30:08)
• "We are hacking our memory constantly to construct the self that is useful to us now." (36:26)
• "Consciousness is being polluted…It’s a very precious realm…our privacy and our freedom, our freedom to think." (38:26)

Important Segment Timestamps

• Defining consciousness: 02:17–03:40
• The Hard Problem: 03:40–07:04
• Panpsychism & Alternatives: 07:44–08:40
• Why Consciousness Matters: 09:20–10:21
• AI, Personhood & Morality: 12:26–17:23
• Religion, Buddhism, Self-Transcendence: 17:23–20:33
• Psychedelics & Meditation: 20:33–23:08
• Destabilizing Introspection: 23:08–25:23
• RFK Jr., food & public health: 27:57–30:18
• Skepticism about science: 30:46–32:02
• Soul & self: 32:08–37:00
• Consciousness in the political realm: 37:00–39:10

Memorable Moments

• Pollan’s story of a psychedelic “blimp” vision (21:41–22:32).
• Marchese quips about not being invited to parties for talking about consciousness (08:44).
• The empathetic, if humorous, commentary on the challenges of living with a ruminative ego (18:45–20:33).

Tone and Style

The episode maintains a thoughtful, reflective, and sometimes playful tone. Both Pollan and Marchese exchange philosophical depth with dry humor and frank admissions of uncertainty, making complex concepts both approachable and profound.

This summary covers the essential themes, key exchanges, and core arguments for listeners seeking a comprehensive yet accessible guide to this deeply engaging conversation.