Podcast Title: The Interview
Host: David Marchese
Guest: Ocean Vuong
Episode Title: Ocean Vuong Was Ready to Kill. Then a Moment of Grace Changed His Life.
Release Date: May 3, 2025
Introduction
In this deeply personal and emotionally charged episode of The Interview, hosted by David Marchese, renowned poet and author Ocean Vuong delves into the complexities of his life, exploring themes of success, pain, identity, and the human capacity for kindness amidst adversity. Vuong, celebrated for his debut novel On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous and his new work Emperor of Gladness, shares intimate stories that reveal the duality of his American success and the lingering scars of his challenging upbringing.
Early Life and Refugee Experience
Vuong's journey begins with his family's escape from Vietnam in 1990, settling in Hartford, Connecticut. Faced with economic hardships and low expectations, Vuong found solace and purpose in literature, a discovery that would shape his future.
"In a lot of ways, my life makes for a classic American success story...But there's another side to Vuong's story, and that's about the flip side of success and lingering pain of his mixed up youth." (00:00)
Despite the hurdles, Vuong's talent for writing propelled him to become one of America's most esteemed poets, earning accolades such as the MacArthur Fellowship and securing a professorship at New York University.
Experiences Working in Fast Food
Emperor of Gladness draws heavily from Vuong's formative years working in fast food establishments like Boston Market and Panera Bread in small-town Connecticut. These experiences exposed him to the harsh realities of American life and the deceptive nature of the fast food industry.
"Everything is about deception. We didn't cook anything. The entire thing was a series of microwaves...presenting wholesome home-cooked meals." (03:23)
Vuong reflects on the transient relationships formed in such environments, highlighting both the intimate connections and the underlying frustrations of knowing that the work offered no true path to upward mobility.
"There's a kindness that arises out of that. There's also a deep frustration...we had this ceremony...but the suffering...showed us it wasn't enough." (05:02)
A Moment of Grace: Confronting Violence
A pivotal moment in Vuong's life occurred when he was 19, grappling with anger and thoughts of violence after his bike was stolen. This near-act of aggression was halted by a moment of grace from his friend, Big Joe, which Vuong describes as a profound revelation.
"I was 19 and we have our backs together...He says something I can never tell my wife. I was 15 and I decided to kill somebody." (14:33)
This experience not only prevented him from committing violence but also became a catalyst for his introspection and commitment to understanding suffering through writing.
Caregiving and Personal Loss
Vuong's role as a caregiver for his partner's grandmother, Gratina, and his own mother's battle with cancer profoundly impacted his worldview and his writing. He discusses the selflessness and enduring nature of caregiving, juxtaposed with the inevitable sadness that accompanies illness and loss.
"Caregiving requires endurance because you are in a heightened place of selflessness and giving with no determinate end." (27:13)
He shares a poignant memory of his mother's last moments, emphasizing the metaphorical and emotional complexities of their relationship.
"Raise me up. Where are you going up there?... It changed everything for me." (28:02)
Embracing Buddhism and Personal Growth
Buoyed by his mother's exhortation to help others, Vuong turned to Buddhism in search of understanding and solace. He explores the concept of satori—brief moments of enlightenment—and how these fleeting insights influence his life and work.
"Satori is like this moment before a true awareness arrives... and the culture just supplants it." (46:49)
Vuong reflects on his continuous struggle to integrate these moments into lasting actions, striving to balance personal enlightenment with communal responsibility.
Education, Social Mobility, and Family Dynamics
Vuong discusses the tension between pursuing higher education and maintaining connections with his working-class roots. The pursuit of academic success often created a sense of isolation from his family, who viewed reading and education as a form of class betrayal.
"Reading itself is almost a betrayal. It was seen as like, oh, you're too good for us." (37:11)
This disconnect highlights the broader challenges faced by immigrant families navigating assimilation and upward mobility, leading to feelings of loneliness and grief.
Relationships and Identity
Exploring the fluidity of identity, Vuong contemplates the multifaceted nature of self-presentation across different social contexts. He questions whether there is an inherent "center" to one's identity or if it is merely a collection of instances.
"Are we just a matrix of instances?... On some days, I feel like, all right, I am who I am." (39:52)
This introspection extends to his relationships, where he navigates the balance between being recognized as a public figure and maintaining personal connections.
Supporting Refugees and Familial Responsibilities
Vuong opens up about his commitment to supporting nine Vietnamese refugees, highlighting the ongoing struggles and fears surrounding their status in the United States. This responsibility underscores the lingering impact of his family's refugee experience and the continuous effort to provide stability for the next generation.
"Every day has been a nail biter, and I'm in kind of survival mode for them." (41:40)
He reflects on the cultural mistrust of authority and the challenges it poses in accessing essential services, further complicating the lives of refugees.
Reflections on Kindness and Cruelty
Addressing the broader societal trend of perceived increases in cruelty, Vuong connects it to his own experiences with violence and control. He emphasizes that acts of cruelty often stem from fear and vulnerability, advocating for greater compassion and understanding.
"A lot of times it comes from fear and vulnerability... there's a doorway through violence with always been suffering." (43:51)
Through his narrative, Vuong calls for stepping back from destructive impulses, metaphorically suggesting alternative paths that lead away from violence and toward empathy.
Conclusion
Ocean Vuong's candid exploration of his life—from the depths of anger and violence to moments of grace and enlightenment—provides a rich, multifaceted portrait of his journey as an immigrant, artist, and human being. His reflections on kindness without hope, the enduring impact of caregiving, and the intricate dynamics of identity offer profound insights into the human condition. As he continues to navigate his role as a writer and caregiver, Vuong remains committed to using his art as a medium for understanding and healing, embodying the sincerity and earnestness that underpin his acclaimed literary work.
Notable Quotes with Timestamps
-
On Deception in Fast Food Industry:
"Everything is about deception...presenting wholesome home-cooked meals." (03:23) -
On Kindness and Frustration:
"There's a kindness that arises out of that. There's also a deep frustration...we had this ceremony...but the suffering...showed us it wasn't enough." (05:02) -
On the Moment of Grace:
"I was 19 and we have our backs together...He says something I can never tell my wife." (14:33) -
On Caregiving:
"Caregiving requires endurance because you are in a heightened place of selflessness and giving with no determinate end." (27:13) -
On Buddhism and Satori:
"Satori is like this moment before a true awareness arrives... and the culture just supplants it." (46:49) -
On Reading as Betrayal:
"Reading itself is almost a betrayal. It was seen as like, oh, you're too good for us." (37:11) -
On Identity and Relationships:
"Are we just a matrix of instances?... On some days, I feel like, all right, I am who I am." (39:52) -
On Supporting Refugees:
"Every day has been a nail biter, and I'm in kind of survival mode for them." (41:40) -
On Kindness and Cruelty:
"A lot of times it comes from fear and vulnerability... there's a doorway through violence with always been suffering." (43:51)
Closing Notes
Ocean Vuong's Emperor of Gladness is set to be released on May 13, further cementing his place in contemporary literature. This episode offers listeners a profound glimpse into the personal experiences and philosophical reflections that inform his acclaimed work.