'Popcast': Gracie Abrams on ‘Daughter From Hell,’ Internet Cruelty, Writing With Paul Mescal, & Audrey Hobert

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Interview (from NYT, featuring Popcast)
Episode Title: Gracie Abrams on ‘Daughter From Hell,’ Internet Cruelty, Writing With Paul Mescal, & Audrey Hobert
Original Air Date: July 4, 2026
Hosts: John Caramanica & Joe Coscarelli
Guest: Gracie Abrams

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Overview

In this lively, candid Popcast crossover, singer-songwriter Gracie Abrams joins hosts John Caramanica and Joe Coscarelli to discuss her third full-length album, Daughter From Hell (out July 17, 2026). The conversation spans Abrams’ confessional songwriting style, her familial relationships, creative collaborations (with both Paul Mescal and Audrey Hobert), growing up in an LA industry family, processing internet fame and cruelty, emotional growth, and finding her voice amidst a vibrant generation of pop artists. The episode is peppered with humor, honesty, and a signature "snack test" segment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Album Title & Familial Themes

• The Meaning Behind “Daughter from Hell”
  [04:13] Gracie discusses how the title track originated as a heartfelt apology to her mother for a turbulent adolescence. The process fostered a new level of reflection and gratitude in their relationship:

  “It felt like the first time I was able to write a song—write anything other than a text—apologizing to my mom for being so brutal growing up... I owed her a big fat sorry and thank you.” (Gracie, 04:31)

• Family Dynamics
  Gracie describes her family as uniquely open to “disinfecting” conflict—having the hard conversations:

  "But specifically, the way that they chose to deal with friction and conflict in our house was very much unlike how I would see it in other families... If you’re lucky and stick with each other, you can break through to the other side.” (Gracie, 06:01)

2. Childhood, Adolescence, & Artistic Identity

• Rebellion & Middle-Child Energy
  [10:17] Gracie owned up to classic teenage acts like sneaking out and lying, describing herself as a socially ambitious but often introverted middle child navigating LA’s fast-paced environment.

  “It was just lots of lying, and ... that included, like, a total rejection of being around my family.” (Gracie, 11:41)

• Emotional Growth & Self-Reflection
  Gracie connects her songwriting to existential concerns and the anxiety of "having gotten what she wanted" as a young, successful artist—wondering if she missed something by not experiencing a traditional coming-of-age.

  “Sometimes I think about what learning did I miss out on that might be integral to my development as a person on this planet, not just as a musician, but as a friend and family member, a global citizen.” (Gracie, 13:10)

3. Career & LA/NYC Creative Scene

• Cultural Ecosystems
  [16:28] Gracie describes the privilege and energy of coming up in LA's driven young-artist scene, collaborating with peers like Blake Slatkin, Addison Rae, and Tate McRae. She credits the environment with normalizing the pursuit of creative careers:

  “It was like having this magical door into Narnia... And everyone was there because they loved each other and just wanted to make things.” (Gracie, 17:23)

• New York Interlude
  Her year at Barnard College furthered her independence and creative experimentation with longtime friend/collaborator Audrey Hobert.

  “[NYC] just felt like everything was immediately right there... lots of running around, smoking weed, listening to music kind of in a new way.” (Gracie, 21:28)

4. Friendship & Collaboration (Audrey Hobert)

• Deep Bond & Creative Partnership
  Although their solo careers diverged ("launch at different speeds"), Gracie says the friendship remains foundational and they will likely work together forever:

  “It doesn’t feel like a radical shift for us... Audrey, she’s like family.” (Gracie, 27:32)

• Writing Style: Humor & Scathing Honesty
  Gracie explores how her writing has matured—shifting from careless candor to self-aware, empathetic lyricism:

  “Being honest and let your experience be your experience... But I do think there's a way to be kind about it. I do.” (Gracie, 29:59) “On this album, generally it feels a little bit less like diaristic to me and, like, mildly more existential, I suppose.” (Gracie, 30:13)

5. Public Scrutiny, Internet Culture & “Nepo Baby” Discourse

• Navigating Pop Stardom’s Shadows Gracie addresses the influence and support she’s received from contemporaries like Taylor Swift, Lorde, Olivia Rodrigo, and Phoebe Bridgers—framing it as mentorship rather than competition:

  “Being associated with them in any capacity...is just a compliment.” (Gracie, 46:41)

• Internet Cruelty & Nepo Baby Conversations
  Gracie is candid about the double-edged sword of online attention:

  “There’s just, like, abject cruelty floating. And I think when people decide to kind of cash in on that, I worry for their hearts.” (Gracie, 54:52)
  On privilege:
  “I wasn't growing up afraid financially, and that's, like, the biggest deal.” (Gracie, 52:46) “When I see people pointing that out, I get it hardcore. The jokes and things...I had a safety net.” (Gracie, 52:46)

• Protecting Privacy vs. Vulnerability in Art Gracie reflects on sharing more of herself (family and romantic life) than ever before on this album—particularly her collaboration with partner Paul Mescal:

  “That was so fun to write together... We have a very creative, you know, home... It just did feel natural.” (Gracie, 37:33; 39:45)

6. Songwriting Evolution & Therapy

• Less Judgment, More Self-Compassion With time and therapy, Gracie describes a gentle turn in her lyrics—less about scoring points against others, more about mutual responsibility and introspection:

  "On this album...I was careful to try to really just write from having been both the protagonist and the antagonist in the songs.” (Gracie, 31:08) “I think I’m slowly growing to be more patient and carrying more grace, which is what I want and what I was...raised seeing in my mom.” (Gracie, 60:14)

• Lightning Round: Personal Questions & Tastes

  • Recalls only three phone numbers: “My mom, my dad, and the police department.” (64:12)
  • Song associated with love: “Bless the Telephone” by Labi Siffre. (64:56)
  • Song to blow out car speakers: “Speechless” by Lady Gaga. (65:58)
  • On insomnia: “If I cannot fall asleep, I will eat snacks and I will take a bath if I have one nearby at the same time. ... I was prescribed beta blockers... and it has helped me offstage too.” (68:05)

7. Film Debut & New Creative Chapters

• Gracie will star in an upcoming A24 film, helmed by Helena Rain, describing the process as nerve-wracking but thrilling—an unexpected but natural step given her bond with the director. (61:29–62:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On writing “Daughter From Hell” as an apology:

  “It took so long to get to this point...I owed her a big fat sorry and thank you.” (Gracie, 04:31–05:18)

• On processing both fame and critique:

  “My hope is to be around for decades. I want longevity... I can credit most of that learning to all the women that you just listed.” (Gracie, 47:17)

• On digital culture:

  “I also, like, grew up in a time where, like, stan culture was normal.” (Gracie, 51:04)

• On artistic growth:

  “I think all judgment is a bit of self-projection, and I...was careful to try to really just write from having been both the protagonist and the antagonist in the songs.” (Gracie, 31:08)

• On collaborations:

  “No, I think there’s—I don’t like the feeling of hiding. I also love privacy… but no… that was so fun to write together.” (Gracie, 37:33–38:30)

• On internet criticism and empathy:

  “There’s just, like, abject cruelty floating. And I think when people decide to kind of cash in on that, I worry for their hearts.” (Gracie, 54:52)

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Snack Segment (70:00–77:30)

• Gracie and hosts rate "sour pickle belts" (snack candy) and Chamoy rings; reactions are funny and candid, with Gracie eventually rating the rings a "four out of ten" and voting for a “pickleback” as palate cleanser.

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro to Gracie and the Album — 01:17–04:13
• Album Title & Relationship with Mother — 04:13–08:50
• Adolescence, Family, and Reflection — 10:10–13:10
• Creative peers and LA/NYC Scenes — 16:28–21:28
• Collaboration & Friendship with Audrey Hobert — 25:10–27:43
• Songwriting Growth & Therapy — 28:24–33:06
• Internet Culture, Stan-ning, and Nepo Discourse — 51:04–54:52
• Vulnerability, Privacy, & Paul Mescal Collab — 36:57–39:45
• Film Announcement—A24 — 61:29–62:53
• Lightning Round — 64:02–68:05
• Snack Segment — 70:00–77:45

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Conclusion

This episode offers an insightful, heartfelt, and frequently funny look at a young artist’s life in the glare of both pop stardom and the internet. Gracie Abrams’ candor on familial healing, creative evolution, and digital culture’s harshness and humor will resonate with fans and newcomers alike. The warmth with which the discussion is conducted is a welcome counterpoint to the more challenging themes of internet scrutiny and personal angst.

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Transcript

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[Gracie Abrams]

We're taking the 4th of July weekend off, but we will be back next weekend and it's going to be a great one. David's interview with Mick Jagger. In the meantime, I wanted to share a conversation from another great New York Times podcast, popcast. If you don't subscribe, you really should. The show covers all aspects of pop music and hosts John Caramonica and Joe Coscarelli have had so many great guests on lately, I'm jealous. Including Mia, Jack Harlow and Luke Combs. Today we're sharing their recent conversation with singer songwriter Gracie Abrams, which I think you'll really love. Have a great holiday and enjoy.

[John Caramonica]

There are a lot of verses about high.

[Joe Coscarelli]

About being high.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Daughter from hell. Yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

Got what I wanted. That's it, right? Got what I wanted.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Welcome to the New York Times podcast. You are. I've actually done that more than once or twice, if we're being honest, of weekly Culture Chat. I'm John Caramonica. I'm the critic.

[John Caramonica]

I'm Joe Coscarelli. I'm the reporter.

[Gracie Abrams]

I'm Gracie Abrams and I am on popcast.

[John Caramonica]

That's right, Gracie Abrams here with us today.

[Gracie Abrams]

That's right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's right.

[Gracie Abrams]

Thank you guys for said it with her chest too.

[Joe Coscarelli]

She meant it.

[John Caramonica]

I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a quick rundown of your life, life and tv and then, and then we'll get rolling. Gracie Abrams is a Grammy nominated singer songwriter getting ready to release her third full length album Daughter From Hell on July 17th. Beginning with the Pandemic Era Minor EP, Gracie has become known for quote unquote, sad girl confessional bedroom pop.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wow.

[John Caramonica]

Is that, is that fair from the sad girl. Sad is a sad girl. Do you consider that a genre?

[Gracie Abrams]

I've seen, you know, people, I am a girl and there have been sad songs.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You've been sad.

[Gracie Abrams]

I'm just a girl amongst us. Really. Yeah. Let them say it.

[John Caramonica]

On songs like that's so true.

[Gracie Abrams]

Risk, God, I'm actually invested Think I

[John Caramonica]

really want and I love you I'm

[Gracie Abrams]

sorry I love you I'm sorry.

[John Caramonica]

A proud acolyte of Taylor Swift, Gracie has opened for a idol on the ERAS tour.

[Gracie Abrams]

Hey, Gracie, you want to come out and see this?

[John Caramonica]

The pair were nominated together for their duet us for a Grammy from Gracie's previous album, the Secret of us in 2020. The year before that, you were nominated for best New Artist at the Grammys. You've been selling out arenas all by yourself. This new album, written and produced with your longtime collaborator Aaron Dessner, has collaborations with Bon Iver, Marcus Mumford, a very special co writer who I think we'll talk about later. Yes, the first single Hit the Wall is out, But I wanted to start with the title of this album, Daughter from Hell. We just met, but you seem like a very polite, well mannered.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Are you on unusually good behavior today?

[John Caramonica]

Successful?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yes.

[Gracie Abrams]

I decided to be decent for you all.

[John Caramonica]

You've made a name for yourself. You've been nominated for some awards. You seem to be winning at life. Like, where does this version of you as a daughter from hell, where does that, where does that stem from? Cause I don't see it.

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, that's a good thing to hear. Thank you. Wow. Thanks, guys. I feel. Well, the song, the title track was written toward the end of the process of making the album. It felt like the first time I was able to write a song, but really like write anything other than a text. Apologizing to my mom for being so brutal growing up and obviously adolescence is tough for the child and for the parent. I think my mom and I had like, we earned our relationship. We have now for sure. She is like my favorite person and we facetime like I call her like six times a day. It's one of those again, everything you're

[John Caramonica]

saying still makes you sound like a great daughter.

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, listen, it just took. It took so long to get to this point and I feel, I feel, I feel like as I have grown up, I have luckily had more time to reflect on change and I owed her a big fat sorry and thank you. And yeah, I don't know, it was not all. It wasn't always lovely.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Like when I look back on my difficulties when I was younger, I think the things that I was often pointing at my parents and being frustrated about were actually just things that I was going through. Wasn't Necessarily directly connected to parenting.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Does that resonate for you?

[Gracie Abrams]

I think because they knew me very well, and so their radar for when things were off or if I was. Yeah. Being like, a total bitch. They're like, you're being one. I feel lucky to have grown up in the house that I did with the parents. That I did for a million reasons, but. But specifically, the way that they chose to deal with friction and conflict in our house was very much unlike how I would see it happen in other families, which I think there can be some sweeping under the rug of hard conversations that take longer in the moment, but that you ultimately, if you're lucky and stick with each other, can break through to the other side. And I think my whole family, we are all so, so close. And it's such a. To be, you know, entering my adulthood and to have that be true. And I know it's because of all

[Joe Coscarelli]

of the disinfecting, as it were.

[Gracie Abrams]

That's a great word for it. Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, that's interesting.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

I think we should say for our listeners of yours who don't know your father, J.J. abrams, for many people associated with Star Wars, I guess, but Alias, for me. That's what I was gonna say. The creator of Alias.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Alias. This is an alias.

[John Caramonica]

Fod.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. Respectful. No, but we're telling him right now,

[John Caramonica]

Alias, Alias, a classic show, Lost, et cetera. We don't have to list his whole resume. Your mother also works in entertainment alongside him. Did you play them the song specifically your mom? And what was her reaction when she got to hear it?

[Gracie Abrams]

I did play it for her. The night that we made the song. I was in the bath, and she was on. We were FaceTiming, and we were FaceTiming. I was propped up, and I played it for her over the phone. Like, phone into laptop. And she was just like, I hate the distortion on the guitar. She's like, I can't hear anything.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It is. They are the crunchiest guitars.

[Gracie Abrams]

The beautiful baritone on this album.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, on this album, like, by far.

[Gracie Abrams]

They're crunchy, for sure. But she, in fairness, couldn't hear anything I was trying to get her to hear. So I then sent it, and she did cry, which meant a lot to me. I know anytime there's any reaction in that capacity, I feel like, you know. But she did, and I think, you know, we've communicated prior to that song being written. But, you know, my apologies, like, laundry list of just probably taking years off her life. And I think she received it in the way I hoped she might there's

[Joe Coscarelli]

nothing in the song, that specific song, that you haven't expressed to her in other format or were there certain things that you feel could only come out in this format?

[Gracie Abrams]

I had never, I wasn't going into that song that session that day thinking of this wasn't like a song. I was like, I need to write this song.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay.

[Gracie Abrams]

But when Aaron started ripping on the guitar, it just did that thing. I was listening to David Byrne talk about this with Louis Theroux that he was saying that sometimes it's the, the music that you hear in the room that makes you recognize a feeling that you have not been looking at that just kind of bubbles up.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It unnerfs it.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. So that was the experience writing that song and I was really hardcore weeping in a way that I haven't writing a song in a long time. And there, you know, some descriptors and I think there's a softness. And that song in particular, while it is a love letter and a thank you note, it also is, I think presents personal anxieties about never achieving kind of the quality of person that I know my mother to be. And I don't think I've ever said that to her directly before. And it was nice to, you know, vomit that up.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Were you a real hellion as a teenager?

[Gracie Abrams]

I know, I feel like, what did she do?

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, just like, were you a real hellion?

[Gracie Abrams]

I just was. I, I. It wasn't like the craziest shit you've ever heard, but there was lots of sneaking out and lots of. I think the oxygen in our house was being taken up in different places where like also as the middle child, I don't know. Do you guys have siblings?

[John Caramonica]

I have a younger sister. John's an only child.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Duh, Classic.

[Gracie Abrams]

I could have told you that.

[John Caramonica]

Okay.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, okay, so.

[John Caramonica]

But you're a middle child, so that's.

[Apple Card Announcer]

I'm a middle child.

[John Caramonica]

That's a specific thing.

[Gracie Abrams]

An only girl. And I feel like the like at which I was, you know, I felt like socially ambitious but also weirdly like sh. There were just like lots of these contradictions and I think I would sometimes put myself in positions that were actually unsafe, that I think I probably thought I was hiding more successfully than I was. And therefore if you're a young kid, I think especially growing up in la, there's like, I don't know, there's like maybe more access to things earlier on where like if I put myself in my parents position, I would also be like scared shitless at times, you know, so you know, it was just. It was just lots of lying, and

[John Caramonica]

you were pushing back, sort of, it sounds like, against the safeness of the home that you had, where it sounds like you guys were communicating and loving.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. And also all, like, you know, other frictions that are not my business to, like, talk about, but just the kind of, like, just how it is in any household, I think there's, like, so much going down all the time. You're sometimes fighting to find your own lane. And for me, that. That included, like, a total rejection of being around my family. You know what I mean? And I think if you're a preteen into your, like, teenage years, that's probably a frightening. It's frightening for parents.

[John Caramonica]

Totally. This album and the last one seem to be about working on what it means to bloom into your full adult self. There's another song on this album, look at My Life, that also has this sort of disaffection, some angst, some insecurity that I think tracks through a lot of your music. And you have this closing line, I got what I wanted. It doesn't sit right. At the same time, it's. You know, you've achieved so much already, and I wonder when you're still reaching for something in these songs, when you're still feeling that sort of teenage angst that a lot of us never grow out of. Like, what is it that you're still wanting and reaching for that makes it so all that that you've done doesn't feel like enough?

[Gracie Abrams]

I weirdly would say that it doesn't feel like teenage angst with the place that I wrote that song from. Like, I was in college for one year at Barnard and took a leave of absence. And I sometimes, like, there's so much life and so much beyond my wildest dreams has gone down in the past handful of years that I. Or it's hard for me to wrap my head around. And I also think that sometimes I think about what learning did. I miss out on that, like, might be integral to my development as a person on this planet. Not just, like, as a musician, but, like, as a friend and a family member and like a, you know, like, cornet, but, like, global citizen. I'm like, not that college is the place you get everything you need to know, but there was something about that that I feel like part of that songwriting process I know is coming from that place. And then at the same time, if we're, like, looking at just that song, I know it probably sounds like I'm down about.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, it does the whole thing. It does.

[Gracie Abrams]

It's really not.

[Joe Coscarelli]

If no one's told you it's kind

[Gracie Abrams]

of a bad time. A new spiral every night crawling my eyes out. That's not the reality. I think, like, for all of us. We probably find ourselves to an especially doing. I don't know if you guys feel this way, but there's like something fishbowl esque about perception with a platform. And I think it's also like, Joe,

[Joe Coscarelli]

can't leave the house.

[John Caramonica]

Literally can't leave the house. I just need way more therapy.

[Gracie Abrams]

Exactly. No, but totally. I think, like, there's something about the perception piece that also feels strange as I do grow up and learn that there are like, I was a bedroom dwelling teenager in many ways. I did feel very. I was introverted. And there's something that. About the amount of energy that it takes, which I love giving, but that there's like a. My social battery or something. I feel like it drains quicker than other people's sometimes. And I will find myself being like, sure.

[John Caramonica]

Introvert.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. Like, it's just a. It's a strange thing. And then I'm like, ooh, like a

[John Caramonica]

hard job for an introvert that you've chosen.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. Are you that way? You seem very socially.

[John Caramonica]

I'm fine to yell at whoever's in front of me. You know, I'm a passionate guy.

[Gracie Abrams]

I guess it would be hard to do the job you guys have if you were like, I can't look at you in the face.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, we've gotten acclimated over the years. Certainly I didn't like set out in my career to be whatever this is.

[John Caramonica]

But also, yeah, being a writer is very different from being in front of a mic.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Well, I mean, no, that I did set out to make, but I just, I never, never had to associate it with the optics of it.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And there was a freedom in that. And then the change in the last two or three years at least for me, has been striking. But I think I'm now coming back around. I think, no, no, no. I'm fully liberated. But now I'm just like, oh, is this my superpower? Actually, like now I'm just like, oh,

[John Caramonica]

you grew out of this very vibrant, emerging cultural scene in Los Angeles and then a bit in New York, as you were alluding to your year at Barnard, you know, your co writer and longtime friend Audrey Hobert has been a friend since you guys were kids. Your teenage boyfriend was working for Benny Blanco, became a hit writer on his own. That's Blake Slatkin. You guys were around Kid Laroi. I know. Murfetti, addison Rae, Tate McCrae, like, this whole class. Yeah. What was it like to be part of this very hungry, very driven ecosystem at such a young age, and then watching everybody come into their power?

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, it was so cool. In real time, you knew it was cool.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You could feel the intensity.

[John Caramonica]

Like, oh, my friends are popping.

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, I think it was really just that, like, when Blake and I met, I was 15, and he was my first collaborator, and he was always as amazing as he is. Like, he was just so committed and so passionate and was Benny's intern at the time. So it would be like my introduction to Benny's world was like, we'd be. I'd tag along while Blake is running an errand, and we'd drop stuff off at Benny's house. And there was this eclectic mix of artists from all different lanes. You know, not just musicians, but, like, amazing chefs and sculptors. And, like, it was such a crazy thing to see. Like, despite having come from the household that I did, I think, like, nothing when you're a kid is less cool than what your parents are doing, no matter what. Like, even if, like, now I can appreciate, like, that was what a gift to have grown up with, like, learning that vocabulary and all that. This was, like, the thing I cared about the most. And it was like having this magical, like, door into Narnia, and you're like, wow, what the hell? Like, and everyone was there. Cause they loved each other, and everyone just wanted to make things. And then, you know, like, a couple years go by, and it is everyone you just listed, like, everyone our age really working hard. And that's what I learned from Blake. Just the discipline of the whole thing. And he learned it from, obviously, the best. And so I feel like I was just so lucky to absorb their kind of grit for it. And I also always felt like a bit of an observer, because even the kind of music that I was writing was, like, not as heavy, you know, necessarily. And I really did just feel like, I'll be here, you know what I mean?

[John Caramonica]

It's me strumming in the corner while they're making, like, pop smashes.

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, while they're making Stay. You know what I mean? And it's. But it's the. It is the. It is one of the most amazing feelings ever to, like, all these years later, like, Bieber and Leroy at Coachella playing that song. And it's like that, like, I don't know.

[John Caramonica]

That's my youth. Yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

It's just but just as Blake's youth and like, I think it's an. I run into Tate last week here. Like people, I'm very and obviously Addison. Like your guys conversation was amazing.

[John Caramonica]

Thank you, thank you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

One of our favorite.

[Gracie Abrams]

She's the greatest. So anyway, in short, yeah, very bizarre and lucky to grow up around that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Given that you say I'm in the corner, you know, watching this kind of like explosion of pop, and you're sort of finding your songwriting voice and exploring a different path. But on the other hand, did it at least make the whole thing seem plausible? You weren't strumming your guitar in the back of a, you know, bedroom apartment in Oklahoma City.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yes, a million percent. I also think like that growing up in la, period, it's like not a radical concept to pursue the arts as an adult. Like that alone. Being kind of normalized. And also LA being a hub for culture in the way that it was. As in like every tour comes through la or like there's amazing even, you know, like street performances or like the museums are incredible. So you get these great exhibits. Like it was just rich with inspiration.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Ultimately, top five LA buskers go, well,

[John Caramonica]

that's the hard question.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's why they pay us the big bucks.

[Gracie Abrams]

Hard hitting journalism.

[John Caramonica]

And what was your New York time like? You and Audrey were roommates in New York. What was your college experience and what did you take back with you to LA from New York?

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, I was just really excited to get, I think in the way that my mildly rebellious, for lack of a better word, instincts as a kid. Like when it came time to potentially go to college, it was like far away as possible. And Audrey's the year above me. She was the year above me in school. So she went to nyu, she had an apartment. I moved into the dorms at Barnard. Audrey, I had a key to her apartment and I was basically kind of like every other night sleeping in Audrey's. We would share our full bed and it was like the. It was just the total dream. Like it was full of music. Even our relationship has always been sort of centered around music before we ever decided to or, yeah, started writing anything together and. But I think it was just liberating to actually have independence in that capacity in this city where, you know, having come from la, it's all so spread out. This just felt like everything was immediately right there and there was just lots of running around. It was like we were smoking a lot of weed and like listening to music kind of in a new way where you're then like Walking down the street completely alone and your family's nowhere near. And there it just felt that. It felt like that cliche thing. It was that cliche thing.

[John Caramonica]

It happened to me, too.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. Where did you move from?

[John Caramonica]

I grew up in Florida, so sort of the opposite, which is. I came here because I had been totally deprived of culture in central Florida, and I knew I needed to be in New York as soon as possible to have those same experiences, but not just away from my family and everything I'd grown up with, but because it was like a promised land of all those things you were describing in la, of music scenes and museums and. And then.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Plus blogs.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah. Blog.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

They didn't have blogs in Florida, so.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, they didn't have them. Were you taking school seriously or was it a pretense?

[Gracie Abrams]

I loved it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay, so it wasn't just a pretense.

[Gracie Abrams]

No, no, no, no. I'm still on my leave of absence.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're returning to Barnard? I'm on my leave of absence. We're breaking news for my PhD too.

[Gracie Abrams]

Are you?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

From where?

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's Goldsmiths. It's one of the University of London campuses.

[Gracie Abrams]

Cool.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So I'm on 25 years of leave of absence.

[Gracie Abrams]

That might be me, but when I. When I went back soon to, like, file the paperwork, they were. Someone come back when she was 80.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Shock.

[Gracie Abrams]

So I'm.

[John Caramonica]

Oh, you can still. You can, like, hold that spot.

[Gracie Abrams]

I'm holding out.

[John Caramonica]

I'm.

[Gracie Abrams]

I really am holding out. But I wanted to major in international relations, and I took a ton of classes because freshman year, you're kind of free to explore. And I loved it. I loved it so much that it was. It was. I was very. It was bittersweet to leave.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I was gonna say it was hard to, like, once the music starts to.

[Gracie Abrams]

Hard to leave. But also, you know, I think when I had started posting, like, snippets of songs that I was writing, like, in real time, very kind of reactively in high school, there were all of these people reaching out. You know that when I'm like, mom, look. She's like, that's a creep. Like, you're not gonna.

[John Caramonica]

You're like, no, no, Mom.

[Gracie Abrams]

Visit that label. And like, okay.

[John Caramonica]

You're like, mom, that's Lord, not a creep.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's like. It's literally Lorde.

[Gracie Abrams]

Correct.

[John Caramonica]

That happened, right?

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, that did happen. That did happen. That did happen. But anyway, so then eventually, when I was in college and I went back to meet with Interscope again and they. I was just. I figured it was A good time to see. To see if. If it would.

[John Caramonica]

But I want to talk a little bit more about your partnership with Audrey. You guys write a lot of songs together. She's a co writer across most of your previous album. And then you got to watch her career take off in the way that it has her. Her solo career, which has, I assume, meant that she didn't write with you on this album. So all but one, right? And I want to talk about minibar. Great one. Throw a throwback. Gracie Audrey. Classic.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

But what was it like to sort of launch at different speeds and in different directions and then take this step apart as things are going so well for each of you?

[Gracie Abrams]

Weirdly, it's felt super in line with the way that our friendship has kind of always operated. Like when we met, we didn't go to the same school. Then we did, and we'd hang out. Then she went to college. Whenever we're in the same place, we're like entirely inseparable, locked in. And then when we are not in the same place, it's like that family thing where you can just. You just pick up immediately when you're back. And it's the like three hour facetime, like once a month, you know what I mean? And the various kind of manic texts for the important shit. But it's been remarkable. Cause we were also then roommates. Sorry, I should mention.

[John Caramonica]

Back in la.

[Gracie Abrams]

Back in la, when I was touring for two years, we lived together and that's when we made the music. And so in this moment, it actually feels like very normal. Except I'm so selfishly, selfishly happy that she has just blown up in the way she has and that she's on tour because I get to like seek content of my best friend, like crushing. And it feels like home when I see pictures of her and on stage and when I hear her music out in the world. And so it's. It doesn't feel like a radical shift for us, I would say.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you feel like you could come back together for subsequent projects, either on hers or yours.

[Apple Card Announcer]

A million.

[Gracie Abrams]

I mean, forever. Like that. She's like family.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This isn't. Damn.

[Gracie Abrams]

I'm like, don't do that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This isn't just like kind of like two highways weaving in and out.

[Gracie Abrams]

It's just like family. I don't know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Sure, yeah. You described yourself in the Interview magazine conversation with Kaia Gerber. By the way, I think your best interview that you've done. Good conversation. Shout out, Kaia Gerber.

[Gracie Abrams]

Shout out. Kai was smart.

[John Caramonica]

John just kept being like, I can't believe how good of an interview Kaia Gerber was.

[Gracie Abrams]

Really great.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, I was just like not personally but friends of friends of friends.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, she's brilliant. She's. You can tell she reads all the time.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, she's on it like that was. And you don't always get that shout out Mel, you know, but like you don't always get that shout out Mel,

[Gracie Abrams]

shout out Mel Chill.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But you described yourself as a scathing writer.

[Gracie Abrams]

Uh huh.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And I wonder if you can talk about what feels to me especially comparing the last album to this album, two different modes of scathingness. There is the mode on this album which to me feels maybe a tiny bit more self lacerating whereas on the last album there is a little bit more. It's a little more playful, it's a little bouncier, spicier. Yeah. What's different in you in those two modes?

[Gracie Abrams]

I think just a couple more years of living.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay.

[Gracie Abrams]

Because skepticism earned skepticism or like just kind of. I feel like in this is something that has been embarrassing for me. I think like having music exist out in the world forever after you've kind of personally moved on from the point of view from which you were writing it. Where I was in the past. I think quite careless about the impact of songs like being on the receiving end of a song being written about. You can suck. And I think if you're not being sensitive or gentle with. With the people you're writing about and with that relationship, it can make someone feel terrible. And I have learned that you might want that though. I'm all for being direct and coloring with as much detail as possible and being honest and let your experience be your experience and put it everywhere. But I do think there's a way to be kind about it. I do. I think you can be honest and I think you can be kind. And I did not believe that maybe

[Joe Coscarelli]

in the past on the last album, you know what I'm saying?

[Apple Card Announcer]

Yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

And on Good Riddance as well. I think there was just some carelessness and I think with this album and I think it's really fun and it's like an amazing release to write without considering anyone else's feelings. But I also want to be a decent person and I think that on this album generally it feels a little bit less like diaristic to me and like mildly more existential I suppose as I am coming into myself, I suppose I feel like all judgment is a bit of like self projection a little. And I on this Album was careful to try to really just write from having been both the protagonist and the antagonist in the songs. You know what I mean? Sort of. Like, I think it's exciting to me, even if it hurts when I see my behavior reflected back to me in other people. And I wanted to explore that. And maybe even just having that level of consideration in my brain, which is like, maybe even only 10% more than previous years of being alive. Like, maybe that seeped into this album or I. I hope it did.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You've done a lot of therapy.

[Gracie Abrams]

Maybe I've done some. Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're speaking. Yeah. It's a lot of person who has done.

[Gracie Abrams]

Done, like, emergency therapy also.

[John Caramonica]

Who amongst us, like, is there a line. Is there a line in particular that you regret when you think back of the way you wrote when you weren't thinking that far ahead?

[Gracie Abrams]

There's a song called Best on Good Riddance. I, on one hand, love that song. And on the other hand, I feel like such an asshole. And I really don't like that I painted things that way, even if I believed them in the moment. Used to lie to your face 20 times in the. I think that there's, like. I feel really lucky that writing music for me, that kind of outside whoever's outside the studio, whether it's who I'm writing about or my audience or strangers or people who hate me, I'm like, they aren't making their way in yet. And I. And I. So I think it's okay to, like, there shouldn't be a filter when you're making anything. I just do think I am okay keeping some things from coming out if it means you're not harming someone.

[John Caramonica]

This is.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What this is bringing up for me is if I think about Taylor's mid to late career turn towards fictionalization and abstraction. Right. And you do that partly as songwriting exercise, but you also do it because. Or not she also does it. Cause after X amount of years of being relentlessly scrutinized and Wikipedia ed and footnoted and so on and so forth, at a certain point it's like, what if I made a song that was not that I can create some distance between myself and the sort of commentariat. The way you're talking about this sounds similar to me. You want to create a little bit of space between you and the maybe analysis. And some of that analysis might come from the target of the song or the object of the song. And some of it might come from your very. Some songs, but also for the people who you have Millions of people who care about you, who wish to unearth every detail in truth. Does that resonate for you as a touch point? But I always was struck by how she described that turn to abstraction as part art, part defense.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, I can't begin to imagine that impulse because there's, like, no one on the planet who has kind of, like, a larger microscope on their life, you know, And I'm. I feel very lucky that that's not my reality. Like, I think I'm less so coming from a place of not wanting people to wonder who I might be writing about, but just I. And I think, like, I've always turned to writing as a form. As my form of processing. And typically, that's when stuff feels, like, impossible to put into language in any other way. Like, where it's easier to write a song than it is to just speak something out loud. And I guess it's less about songwriting, actually, and more about the way that I hope I navigate relationships with people, which is, like, having, like, taking things less personally. And I think it's really fun to write a bitter song, and I think it can be really funny to write a bitter song. Yeah, I think I learned that with Audrey, whose sense of humor is, like, top tier and whose wit, like, is a part of everything she does.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Very biting.

[Gracie Abrams]

Very biting. And it also, you know, that's my best friend. We have this shorthand in our humor, or we have all of this information about one another that it's really easy ultimately, to quickly be like, this verse. We're going to talk about how whoever he's sitting across from now is, like, laughing at everything, but thinks he's, like, the dumbest to ever walk. You know, that's easy. I don't think that actually in my quiet moments by myself, I would so quickly go there. I think I, more so in the past, have turned to, like, it's bad that you loved me, or, like, you know, and I'm like, what the hell? I just. I think there's. I think I'm just trying to grow into my music, being reflective of where I'm at outside of my music.

[John Caramonica]

You're being quite humble about the size of your audience and the way that people want to put the microscope on your life as well. But I think your audience has only grown. You started already from a place of notoriety just because of how you grew up and who your friends were, et cetera. And I think that's only intensified. And you've been, I think, very pointed about trying to keep some things to yourself. Whether that's your relationship with your parents or your love life.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

And on this album, you're sort of letting both of those things a little bit more into the forefront. We spoke about the title track and singing about your mom, you co wrote a song on here with Paul Mescal, your boyfriend, amazing actor. And that's imaginary friend on this album. And that, of course, is gonna invite scrutiny into a part of your life that you've tried to keep very separate from your music and your career. Was it difficult for you to go there and say, we're gonna collaborate in this very public way and you're gonna

[Joe Coscarelli]

use your real name?

[John Caramonica]

Right?

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. No.

[John Caramonica]

No pseudonym.

[Gracie Abrams]

No. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. I think it's like. No, I think there's, there's. I don't like the feeling of hiding. I also love privacy, where it feels like the right thing. But no, it's like, you know, that was so fun to write together. It's like that wasn't some groundbreaking event for us. Like we, it's. We have a very creative, you know, home with friends who are like so good at what they do and everyone feels happy to share that with one another. And so no, I think the scrutiny, it's like I always like try to assume the absolute worst case scenario of everything and then anything else is like, pleasant.

[John Caramonica]

Sure.

[Gracie Abrams]

And I also think it's. It's if you know how happy your experience was making something or how much you learned about yourself or your partner or whatever. The thing is, it's like no amount of hate or trolling or whatever could take that away. And I think that's like. That is a part of my life that brings me so much peace and joy. And I'm not gonna like pretend like that's not true, but I also think it's not like an open door policy,

[John Caramonica]

you know, but no, it's not an invitation for.

[Gracie Abrams]

No, but of course I understand.

[John Caramonica]

Like speculation.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

But also, like, it is what it is. Sure. What does that collaboration look like? Like, what was. How did that song come to be?

[Gracie Abrams]

Just home. Just as it sounds like, it's such a simple, short, you know, song. And it was really just. Just us fucking around, trading lines and singing along your classic process.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And was it sort of like mid flow in the making of the album as a whole? Like, one of the things I was struck by, obviously, most of the songs here, they're written and produced, you and Aaron. There's a couple of extra writers here and there, but it's like it's not disharmonious. You know, the song, it's not like it didn't come from left field.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. It was in the middle of the album making process, so it just did feel natural. And also I was like. I was thinking out loud that day, sort of like there are so few kind of actual strummers on this album. And I think coming from Secret of Us, that was like, solely like, we're acoustic guitar girls, you know, like, it was very, very much based there. And I kind of wanted the show to have one or two more moments where it could be super small in that way. And so that's what we were talking about.

[John Caramonica]

And that this album, it's more finger picking than strumming.

[Gracie Abrams]

It's like gothic folk finger. Aaron Central. Aaron is the mayor of Gothic folkville.

[John Caramonica]

Well put. The other outlier, or more of an outlier, I would say, is the song you did with Audrey Hobert, which we alluded to earlier. Minibar, which has a bit more ecstatic Audrey and Gracie together energy. Did that come from somewhere else?

[Joe Coscarelli]

50 bucks in a brain cell. Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

A great verse about being high. Although there are a lot of verses about being high.

[Joe Coscarelli]

About being high.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

I really like. But, you know, there's a line about.

[Gracie Abrams]

I was listening to your. Your Young Lean interview, and I noticed.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Say hi to Young Lean.

[Gracie Abrams]

Hello, gorgeous. I just. Sometimes your nervous system, like, gets really overstimulated or overwhelmed in any way. That for me, has been up and down like a coping mechanism sometimes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Smooth it out.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. Or like. Or a panic attack.

[John Caramonica]

I've been thinking through the hard things over. Light drugs is one of the things of phrase on this album.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Different song.

[Gracie Abrams]

Thank you.

[John Caramonica]

A good drug line.

[Gracie Abrams]

I appreciate it.

[John Caramonica]

Thank you. Drugs.

[Gracie Abrams]

Light drugs. Well, you've heard of Hard drugs.

[John Caramonica]

Yes, I've heard her.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yes.

[Apple Card Announcer]

No, I know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So listen, no one's just crazy. No one's done it before.

[Gracie Abrams]

Congratulations and thank you so much. Minibar. I think we wrote that the same week we did that. So true. In my memory.

[John Caramonica]

Okay, so it is from those sessions,

[Gracie Abrams]

from back in the day sessions, us being at home. Yeah. Like, we were just on the couch. But yes, we had so much fun writing that song. And there was another song that. That I think might be on a deluxe edition or something of this that we also did in that same period. That is one of my favorite songs I've ever been a part of, and I just need to get it kind of right. So it's not on this edition.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Stay tuned.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, yeah. But it is zippier That's a good way to put it. And it's like I do think kind of in the way that I was describing how easy it is to make fun of anything. Like, Audrey and I just laugh when we are together in a way that that doesn't happen to me elsewhere. It's like such a specific alchemy of having known each other for 16 years and our collaborative relationship now layered into that there's just such an intimate knowing of one another. And I think writing songs like Minibar or like that's so True, for example, it's like just happens so quick and it's such a joy. And she is brilliant beyond measure. I really believe, like, you know, she's just got her special sauce that I admire. I've no, like, it's not news to me, you know what I mean? And she's been a brilliant writer outside of music since I've known her. She's like, her screenwriting is so fucking funny. And anytime she would write any kind of story or in college we would go line for line writing stories out at a bar. That was our joy. And so I grew up with her personal voice kind of soundtracking all these different chapters of my life. And I'm just happy that the rest of the world gets to have some of that.

[Apple Card Announcer]

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[Gracie Abrams]

of death for children and teens in the United States.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Some people avoid talking about gun violence

[Gracie Abrams]

because they don't think they can make a difference.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But every conversation matters when it comes to gun violence. We agree on more than we think, and having productive conversations about gun violence can help protect children and teens. Learn how to have the [e-mail] brought to you by the Ad Council this message comes from Betterment. Betterment's Dan Egan talks about tax loss harvesting. Tax loss harvesting is a tax management strategy. When you Have a position that's gone down over time. We intentionally sell out of it to realize a loss, which we then say to the irs, hey, we lost money. You get to use that to offset your ordinary income every year, decreasing your tax burden. Investing involves risk performance, not guaranteed. Betterment does not offer tax advice. TLH may not be suitable for all customers. Learn [e-mail] TLH-terms

[John Caramonica]

the last thing you said makes me think of something else, which is we alluded to lorde being Internet friends with you early on. You've been in such direct contact with so many of your pop idols and contemporaries, Whether it's Taylor and the eras tour, as we talked about opening for Olivia, you know, coming up alongside the other people we named, you know, Phoebe Bridgers, all these people who have been in your periphery and also. And also, like, closely associated with you and your career. Do you ever feel like that's been hard to differentiate yourselves from these sort of towering shadows? Obviously, it's good from a attention and business perspective to have a duet with Taylor Swift, et cetera, but is there any part of you that feels like it's made it harder to separate yourself from your contemporaries and your influences?

[Gracie Abrams]

My immediate answer is no, in that to me, this has been like the opportunities that I have been granted by artists who have had significantly larger platforms than me sharing their stage. You know, Taylor and Olivia both in, like, such meaningful ways that to every stage of the like. And lorde, for example, you know, being so supportive early on, Phoebe being like such a. I mean, she is just like the writer of our generation in my mind, like, having grown up, you know, with her music in my life and learning from each of these women as really, like mentors in many ways, Being associated with them in any capacity and with their careers is just a compliment. And I think, like, my hope and dream, you know, I'll be writing music like if the people no longer have me forever, but I. But for as long as they will have me. Like, my hope is to be around for decades. I want longevity. And every chapter thus far, I have learned. I've learned so much more than I ever thought I'd have the opportunity to. And I can credit most of that learning to all the women that you just listed. You know,

[Joe Coscarelli]

it feels like a really. It's interesting because on the one hand, it's a very fortuitous time to emerge as a young singer, songwriter, especially a young woman. We talk about this a lot in hip hop with Drake. It's like for a young Rapper who never knew life before Drake. You know, if you started, you were seven years old in 2012, you know, it's like, just been Drake in the water since you were thinking about what music is. And also, I think that's how we feel about Taylor. It's like Taylor's just in the water at this point. And on the one hand, it's so generative. Cause you're just like, every day you wake up and you're like, well, there's a brilliant person. On the other hand, there's the tension of, I want to do something more and different. And I wonder, as you've navigated. And it doesn't even have to be in this specific moment, but when you think back over the course of the last two or three albums, were there tendencies that you had to unlearn?

[Gracie Abrams]

Do you mean, like, literally, like, melodically in things like.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, melodically or songwriting turns. Like, are there things that you. In your mind were water? And then you step back and said, actually, their influence. How can I filter them out? Probably.

[Gracie Abrams]

I wouldn't say consciously. Honestly, I think it's like, you are what you attend to. And so much of my life has been, you know, soundtracked by Taylor's albums. And I think, like, you know, she's 10 years older than I am. That's like. I think music when you're a kid and film and art of all sorts like, that, before you've experienced things yourself, is what allows you to yearn. You're like, I want that. And so Taylor's music, you know, has always been there for me in that capacity, like. And I don't. Truthfully, I can't remember a time where I was ever like, ooh, that sounds like exactly what.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's too close.

[Gracie Abrams]

No, so far. So far, no. But I get what you're saying. I think it's also like. Well, I think there's two things. One, the way that artists get, like, put together on, like, a bookshelf is like, you know, I understand that. That's like the Internet for you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's a shorthand.

[Gracie Abrams]

It's shorthand. It helps people understand, like, your catalog.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Exactly.

[John Caramonica]

Totally categorize.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. And so that doesn't, you know, irk me. And frankly, it's, like, such an honor, you know, to be on any shelf. Truly.

[John Caramonica]

You're on the shelf.

[Gracie Abrams]

I'm just happy to be here, guys. Just crawling right up.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You were going to put.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, so that's real.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's a good gag. We should do that. It's a good gag.

[Gracie Abrams]

Get, like, figurines. Yeah, that would be good. A shelving?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, it's a shelf. You're giving us ideas for the set. Refresh.

[Gracie Abrams]

Wow. Thank God. And then the other thing is, I, like, grew up in a time where, like, Stan culture was normal. And I think, unfortunately, yeah, it's nuts, but I also understand it because it's like, before we had this, everyone was like, they're in my head. They're in my head. And now they're, like, in the palm of your hand, and there's this kind of access. And I think that. I wonder if it's actually more like critics or if it's, like, fans that drive the grouping. You guys would know.

[John Caramonica]

I think it's both, and I think they feed off of each other. And as much as you've benefited from the passionate Stan communities of pop Internet.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

You've been on the receiving end of some brutal stuff from them also. Whether that's the Nepo baby stuff or just cruel memes that don't account for the idea that there's a human on the other side. Like, they can be funny jokes, but also, you have to read them. And probably the way these algorithms work, anytime you're near a phone, they get sent towards you. I know you've probably tried to distance yourself.

[Gracie Abrams]

I was gonna say, however, yes, discipline is a beautiful thing.

[John Caramonica]

I wonder if you can talk a little about what that feels like, just as a young woman, to be pilloried in that way, in addition to supported.

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, I mean, the Nepo stuff is obviously in the discourse. Like, appropriately so.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Like, you didn't bring your parents to podcast. We had to.

[John Caramonica]

We have done that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Q. Hollis was here. Brought his dad. Musicians.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, different kind of.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Different kind of.

[Gracie Abrams]

If my dad were a musician, maybe I'd be like, come on. Sorry, guys. Sorry, guys. No, but of course, that's been a part of the conversation, and I think about the privilege there, and it's like I had a safety net, and that allowed me the ability to experiment and concentrate, and I had the gift of time to dedicate to doing this thing I loved. I wasn't growing up afraid financially, and that that's, like, the biggest deal. And then the specific household that I was born into, with my parents both having worked in the entertainment industry for as long as I've been alive, like, the way that you overhear your family talking about anything, like, at the dinner table or in the car on the way to school, there is just this vocabulary that I was so lucky to grow up with. So, like, When I see people pointing that out, it's like I get it hardcore, the jokes and things. I also understand the blocking.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Gracie Abrams.

[Gracie Abrams]

I'm like, go crazy. I understand the tone of the Internet. I'm on it too sometimes. But I also have. It is funny when comes it overwhelms the things you actually want to see. And where you're like, you know, because my name is my name. Your algorithm is just naturally being like. You're being like force fed. And there are some days where I'm laughing just as hard as the person posting it. And there's other times where like, we're all people. It's like that can't feel good. And I think I'm fascinated. But these days there's just like abject cruelty floating. And I think when people decide to kind of cash in on that, I worry for their hearts.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Well, and also just the overall tenor of the discourse, you know, when there is consequence free cruelty, that's really the thing, I think. And also the ability to aggregate support.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

From other people without consequences. That is to get your clout up also.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That has been obviously detrimental to the tenor of public discourse.

[Gracie Abrams]

I feel very lucky doing what I'm lucky enough to do today. I feel support when I'm playing a

[Joe Coscarelli]

show, which is where it counts, or

[Gracie Abrams]

when I'm with my friends.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

I have a suspicion that people who either enjoy or just spend their time that way on the Internet, the likelihood of them not getting support elsewhere is quite high. And so I really actually back to the attempting to not take things so personally. Point all of what's valid, I feel. And I know. And also, so lots of criticism. Like, I've had that thought, but ten times worse about myself already.

[John Caramonica]

The Lena Dunham. The Lena Dunham version. The Eminem of it. Yeah, the Eminem or Lena, depending on when you grew up.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Or optimally both.

[Gracie Abrams]

The duality.

[John Caramonica]

Yes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I can't wait till those two collaborate.

[Gracie Abrams]

Exactly, exactly. The next book. But so, you know, for me it's like that will never stop happening. And if I'm lucky enough to continue gathering new listeners, I will also be gathering more of the other side of it, and that's inevitable. So it's like the mental discipline of not being surprised by that is important. And I also think, like, forget the personal trolling at times I just don't feel better or more I don't feel more interesting when I spend time reading anything really on the Internet. Like truthfully, with the exception of your program and like my select podcast, I'm not learning more than I am when I'm phone down out in the world. And I don't know if it's like. I don't know if it's like. I don't think it's London. I think it might be just this time where I think lots of friends of mine are feeling this switch.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, we've reached a tipping point in some regards culturally.

[Gracie Abrams]

And I don't think people like. And so I am anticipating all of it and I can't control it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And I watch popcast and Touch Grass.

[Gracie Abrams]

That's the takeaway from this episode.

[Joe Coscarelli]

After listening to the album and then going back and listening to the prior album, I had two related questions. I wonder if there was a specific version of yourself or a tendency, and it could be musical or it could be personal, that you feel like this album is the one where you've left it behind, where you can identify its presence in 2024, but you know it's not there. And then because you've been willing to speak openly about your relationship with your mother, write a song about it, like you're elevating to some new kind of transparency. I wonder if that went hand in hand with some emerging awareness that you are more than just your parents child. Now, were those awarenesses or changes or developments intersecting in any way? Does one of them speak more to you than the other?

[Gracie Abrams]

That's such a cool question. The first half of the answer is that I think. I think this album had more. There was more patience with this album as a whole. I think that especially compared to Secret of Us. I wrote that when I was touring some of this album, Daughter from Hell, we started on tour, but we did most of it when that was over and it was done for the first time in four years. And I think there was a kind of like white knuckling and the deepest joy of my life happening at the same time when I was touring. But I was really reactive in ways that I hear on the Secret of Us, like a kind of more manic voice than on Daughter From Hell, which I think, you know, a lot of that, I think comes from writing by myself or writing with Aaron. But like the way that we write together, I write all the words myself. You know what I mean? It is very much kind of. It does feel like I'm alone. And I say that as a compliment to him. It can feel like I'm alone when I'm writing the content of the songs. It feels like that matched my internal rhythm at this point. And I think That's a more patient person. So I think I'm slowly growing to be more patient and carrying more grace, which is what I want and what I was, you know, raised seeing in my mom. So it was. I think in some ways, I feel more attached than I am.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's interesting. So it's sort of a reverse, in a way, of I am my parents

[Gracie Abrams]

or I see it. I would love to become the quality of human beings that they are. And I feel comfortable shedding light on our relationship because for whatever subconscious reason, it came up now. So I'm not putting a wall between me and what is true for me this year, but maybe I'll regret it.

[John Caramonica]

I like that we came back around and ended this conversation where it began. But before we do our lightning round and our twisted snacks that you chose, which I can't wait for. I'm so excited.

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh, you're not gonna even look at me.

[John Caramonica]

I want to talk about the. The other new chapter of your life and career, which is that you're gonna star in an A24 movie. You talked in the past about how music was your own little refuge away from the entertainment industry of your parents and that you grew up in and that you wanted to pursue music and never film or television, in part for that reason. But why is that the right thing for you at this stage in your life and career?

[Gracie Abrams]

The reason it felt correct now is because it was Helena Raine. And she wrote the script and is directing the.

[John Caramonica]

And that's the director of Baby Girl and the forthcoming please from A24 starring Gracie Abbotties.

[Gracie Abrams]

Bodies, Bodies.

[John Caramonica]

Bodies, Bodies. Of course.

[Gracie Abrams]

I met her three years ago through a friend who thought we might like each other. And we got breakfast, and it was this, like. I felt like I knew her forever. There was just this weird kind of undercurrent that felt. It just felt like this electric thing. I was like, what the hell? And then three years goes by, and then she reached out. I'd asked if I would want to read her script, which I didn't. I didn't. When she reached out, I didn't think she was asking me to read it and potentially audition for it. I just thought she wanted me to read it, which I was just. It was the best day ever getting to read her work. And it really moved me so hard, so fast. And I called her back immediately, kind of raving. And that started the audition process. Us, which I had never had no experience in that realm. And, like.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So you had to. Even though she's your friend, you had

[Gracie Abrams]

to audition many, many times.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay. All right.

[Gracie Abrams]

So many.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I like to think of Joe Ron, a movie. He just. Oh, my God. I just think I'd be in it.

[Gracie Abrams]

You guys have a. A brotherly love. I. I would like to observe.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I hope so.

[Gracie Abrams]

It was a whole process, but like every round of audition, like the. When she was like, do you want to audition? So scared for my life. But also it was such an amazing opportunity. I felt like the luckiest girl in the world. Like coming home that day, going to sleeping, like, I got to read her words and she was in the room and she's so brilliant. And then when she asked me back, like the same thing and then the same thing again. The same thing. And I was always just like, how cool that I get to know what this version of the circus feels like. And for some reason she's letting me try. And it's already very humbling and I'm thrilled and nervous. Of course, it hasn't shot yet. No.

[John Caramonica]

Coming soon, certainly. All right, we're going to hit a couple questions in Our podcast Lightning Round 52 cards in the podcast deck. You will pick some at random and they correspond to pre written questions on our computers. So. So go ahead and we'll pull three, but let's do one at a time. What do you got?

[Gracie Abrams]

Nine of diamonds.

[John Caramonica]

Nine of diamonds.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay. Okay. How many people's phone numbers do you have memorized?

[Gracie Abrams]

My mom and dad and the police department.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay, that's good, that's good.

[John Caramonica]

Nobody has ever pulled that third one before.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Is that true?

[Gracie Abrams]

So that's okay?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, that's true.

[John Caramonica]

Two of those barely count. But you're Gen Z, right? Do you consider yourself Gen Z?

[Gracie Abrams]

I don't know. Am I 99?

[John Caramonica]

I think you are. Yeah. Just gonna go ahead and be Gen

[Joe Coscarelli]

Z. I'm Gen Z.

[Gracie Abrams]

All right.

[John Caramonica]

Pull another one. Sorry, Audrey, she doesn't know your phone number.

[Gracie Abrams]

Four of hearts.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Four of hearts. Four of hearts. Okay.

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh, shit.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What is a song not by you that you associate with love?

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh, bless the telephone. Laby Sifri.

[John Caramonica]

Ah, nice. Good pull.

[Gracie Abrams]

Strange how a phone call can change your day Take you away Away from the feeling of being alone.

[John Caramonica]

Bless the telephone. Have you been listening to that recently or is that just an all timer?

[Gracie Abrams]

It's an all timer for you for sure.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And since before you ever fell in love.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yes, but I think like as you live, everything needs habits. But yes, that's definitely. That's my thing.

[John Caramonica]

It's a good one. You're putting the kids on. Tell us in the Comments. What you think of this stuff?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Lab beats. L, A, B I, S I M Mr. e.

[Gracie Abrams]

Six of hearts.

[John Caramonica]

Six of hearts.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay. Sort of the counter. Maybe the polar opposite counterpart to that. Question. What is a song that you play to blow out your car speakers? Do you have a car?

[Gracie Abrams]

I don't anymore when I move.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Because you blow out speakers.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yes. I broke it. Speechless by Gaga.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wow. Wow.

[Gracie Abrams]

That's definitely one of my all time.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Just.

[Gracie Abrams]

Car.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's a rager.

[John Caramonica]

It's a car.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Rager.

[Gracie Abrams]

Car.

[John Caramonica]

A beast of a song.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. Should we do five?

[Gracie Abrams]

Should they be these two that fell or is that you?

[John Caramonica]

Tell.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You tell us.

[John Caramonica]

Those feel right for you?

[Apple Card Announcer]

I don't know.

[Gracie Abrams]

They kind of.

[John Caramonica]

Yes. Pull them. She wants them.

[Gracie Abrams]

You want new ones? No, I want you to fight in your house.

[John Caramonica]

Words. It doesn't matter.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I don't preach.

[John Caramonica]

How about one from the floor and one from the pile?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Fair. Good. Partnership.

[Gracie Abrams]

Okay. You're kind of like favoring this side in such an aggressive way.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Do a money. Do a money thing, Joe.

[Gracie Abrams]

10 of hearts.

[John Caramonica]

Wow.

[Gracie Abrams]

Heart forward.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay. I mean, I feel like you're pulling. I mean, candidly, I think you're pulling pretty easy questions.

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, do you want. Well, maybe the ones on the floor are like the worst you've ever heard.

[Joe Coscarelli]

10 of heart. Art. Who's a musician people would be surprised to know that you love.

[John Caramonica]

Oh, you got all playlists on, so whatever. We're building the Gracie Abrams playlist.

[Gracie Abrams]

Surprised to know I love.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah. Something. Something real.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Do you know who Marie Samosan is? Okay, sorry.

[Gracie Abrams]

I'm surprised to know I love.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We're taking this question out of the.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, this is boring.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, we're taking it out.

[John Caramonica]

This is the last ever. Yeah, you're the last ever person to answer this question.

[Gracie Abrams]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't find anything so wildly shocking. Next question.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right.

[John Caramonica]

Grace Abrams doesn't like any musicians. You'd be surprised.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Sorry, I don't know.

[John Caramonica]

All right, pick your last card from the floor.

[Gracie Abrams]

Whichever one I have to lean over and change.

[John Caramonica]

All right, there's three on the floor.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, man.

[Gracie Abrams]

Middle. Why not?

[John Caramonica]

All right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right, let's see what we got.

[Gracie Abrams]

Five of spades. Whatever, guys.

[John Caramonica]

Wow, we really turned Gracie off.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Actually, this is a good one that we have asked before, and it's. This is good. What do you do when you can't fall asleep?

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh. Oh, God.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This is very, very personal for people. This is like a very personal thing.

[Gracie Abrams]

If I cannot fall asleep, I will eat Snacks. And I will take a bath if I have one nearby at the same time. Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

You eat in the tub?

[Gracie Abrams]

Absolutely.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. Tight. Are you a brain racer, like, before bed or.

[John Caramonica]

No?

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, I was prescribed beta blockers, like, a couple years ago for on stage. That was the idea. And I find it's helped me off stage too. It's been helpful, so that's also been good. But I also sort of have a competitive, probably unhealthy thought process where, like, I know I wouldn't be prescribed them if the medical professional didn't think I could use them.

[John Caramonica]

Well, you could just get them on the Internet now, basically without a prescription.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Okay.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

By the way,

[Gracie Abrams]

direct to consumer, beta blogger, pro fda.

[Joe Coscarelli]

He's gonna be able to get him at the bodega any day at some point.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

That's actually probably real. Is that real? Oh, wow. Wow. Okay. Well, every time I take them, I don't. With myself. No, no. I'm not thinking like, oh, God, what's good? It's not that. It's just. I'm like, can I not handle this on my own? Is where my brain goes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, but that's. I. That's part of the reason, like, for many years, I wouldn't take Ambien because I was like, I'm better than this. I'm better than.

[Apple Card Announcer]

You take ambient.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No. And then I took. No, no. Then in my mid-30s.

[Gracie Abrams]

Flip the script.

[Apple Card Announcer]

No, no.

[Joe Coscarelli]

In my mid-30s, I went through a stretch of time where I was like, I was sleeping so badly and up at all hours, and I was like, okay, fuck it, I give in. And then I was literally alphabetizing my CDs at like 5:30 in the morning. Like, going totally on ambient. Yeah. Like half conscious, doing reverse alphabetized.

[Gracie Abrams]

I've taken Ambien on tour. It would not even put me to sleep.

[John Caramonica]

It would just make you loopy.

[Gracie Abrams]

Possess.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. It like, puts you in, like, the room right before sleep and leaves you there.

[John Caramonica]

It's a dangerous place.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But, yeah. So I had to get off Amban. The Lord did not want me to be off.

[Gracie Abrams]

I can't believe that exists.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's a lunatic drug.

[John Caramonica]

Speaking of lunatic drug.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, geez.

[Gracie Abrams]

Beautiful.

[John Caramonica]

Every episode of Povcast ends with a snack. Gracie. Everyone's walked in here and picked two. She couldn't decide whether the Sour Pickle belts from what I assume was a farm stand in the southwest west.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Shout out, Amanda.

[John Caramonica]

Shout out to Amanda Webster, our photo editor. And these cholula chamoy rings. Watermelon, pineapple and mango flavored.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Canadian.

[John Caramonica]

Those are from Sammy in Canada.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Shout out. Sammy Rice, our couch guy.

[John Caramonica]

Wait, these are. These are both snacks, as I told you off camera, that I would buy on my own at no camera that I would avoid.

[Gracie Abrams]

And we're divided.

[John Caramonica]

We're going to eat both of them right now. You start with the sour pickle and I'm going to open in these chamoy rings.

[Gracie Abrams]

What's your palette like?

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's like a seven year old's.

[Gracie Abrams]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's like a really mature seven year old.

[John Caramonica]

It's fine.

[Gracie Abrams]

No, it's not.

[John Caramonica]

All right, John, get the rings.

[Gracie Abrams]

I mean, I love pickles, but I love smell.

[John Caramonica]

Does it smell like a pickle?

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. Can we require smell test?

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, we always smell smell first.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But like, like, okay,

[John Caramonica]

these are.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Is there a ripe order to eat these in?

[Gracie Abrams]

I think so. I go savory, then those are gonna be sweeter.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Ah.

[John Caramonica]

Although these are spicy.

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, my God.

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh, my God. You're gonna be so mad and sick. I like how this smells so much.

[Joe Coscarelli]

The problem with family, you don't like this.

[Gracie Abrams]

Did you like this?

[John Caramonica]

I love the smell.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh, my God.

[John Caramonica]

The problem with the new wave of pickle flavored candy is that most of it is not pickle enough.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's just green.

[John Caramonica]

But this one really smells like pickle.

[Joe Coscarelli]

He's gonna hit that whole thing.

[John Caramonica]

John, some pickles.

[Gracie Abrams]

You're gonna be super sad.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No. You guys are wild. This smells so acrid.

[Gracie Abrams]

Do you want to do this one first and this will probably be maybe a little more normal?

[Joe Coscarelli]

No.

[Gracie Abrams]

Are you doing full?

[John Caramonica]

I'm going to take a big bite.

[Gracie Abrams]

I don't know.

[John Caramonica]

Pickle tastes like jerky. Oh, wow. Strong pickle flavor. Oh, it's so good. It's so good.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, my God.

[Gracie Abrams]

Actually, do you have to swallow it?

[John Caramonica]

You do whatever you want.

[Gracie Abrams]

I'm trying to like it really bad.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's like one of those survivor challenges

[Gracie Abrams]

where you eat the bug now. I like it.

[John Caramonica]

It tastes good at the end.

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh, my God.

[John Caramonica]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It kind of finishes. Okay.

[Apple Card Announcer]

It's nice.

[Gracie Abrams]

The aftertaste is actually lovely.

[Joe Coscarelli]

The beginning was really rough.

[Gracie Abrams]

I keep getting like a chill almost.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Are we gonna rate them at the end or we're gonna rate one at a time?

[John Caramonica]

I think we should rate the pickle while it's fresh. That is an incredible snack. That's a nine out of ten. Don't believe these liars.

[Gracie Abrams]

Did you say nine?

[John Caramonica]

I said nine. It's so good. I think it's so good.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm gonna be all right. You guys are winning the.

[John Caramonica]

Oh, now you like it?

[Gracie Abrams]

No, I didn't give a number. I didn't even go for it.

[John Caramonica]

But you made a crazy face.

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, initially, I would say it's a seven for me.

[John Caramonica]

Okay.

[Gracie Abrams]

Cause I think it's. I think it's a seven.

[John Caramonica]

It's very original.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah, I guess. What are the. What are we scoring on?

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's just vibes.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, just. Yeah, it's.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Look, in the first five seconds, it was a two.

[Gracie Abrams]

Absolutely agree.

[John Caramonica]

Do you like pickles?

[Joe Coscarelli]

No.

[John Caramonica]

Oh, you don't eat pickles.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's not.

[John Caramonica]

No.

[Gracie Abrams]

I love pickles. And I agree. In the first year, it started really

[Joe Coscarelli]

tough, but it leveled. It's like a 5.5 to me.

[John Caramonica]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It leveled out.

[John Caramonica]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It like went up to like a seven, and then it settled at like a five and a half.

[Gracie Abrams]

I think we should all go with.

[John Caramonica]

You want the light.

[Gracie Abrams]

Okay.

[John Caramonica]

So we can match in. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What are we doing?

[John Caramonica]

The. The flavor that.

[Gracie Abrams]

Okay. Joe's got one that's a little different.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Jesus.

[Gracie Abrams]

Perfect. Don't lie.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, it's fine.

[Gracie Abrams]

Really? That's so nice.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's fine.

[John Caramonica]

Pineapple. Yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

Pineapple, yeah. Little tang.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And then what's going on on the other side?

[John Caramonica]

Really good.

[Gracie Abrams]

It's got. I like when gummies have. You guys know the tangfastics.

[John Caramonica]

Oh, yeah.

[Gracie Abrams]

That have the marshmallowy and then the.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yep.

[Gracie Abrams]

That's like kind of what's happening here.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, definitely. One is the marshmallowy side. All right, we'll try the watermelon. These are good. These aren't. They're lacking spice.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. I was going to say, like, for a cholula snack. Everything that is advertised in this is a thing I do not like. But the snack itself does not deliver those things. It's like just a totally fine, you

[John Caramonica]

know, like the watermelon.

[Gracie Abrams]

Not. Not as much. I all. And also, this is medium, so maybe they do bump it up.

[John Caramonica]

It's two out of three chili peppers.

[Gracie Abrams]

It's two or three chilies, but it's not spicy.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You know, I hate spice.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, no spice.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Like, I literally viscerally cannot handle spice.

[Gracie Abrams]

Whoa.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Cannot at all.

[Gracie Abrams]

Love spicy.

[John Caramonica]

Tasty, though. These are tasty.

[Gracie Abrams]

They're good. I actually. I'm going to have another one of these.

[John Caramonica]

The Canadians know what they're doing with their gummies.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This advertises as a far more extreme thing than it actually is.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, it's not extreme.

[Gracie Abrams]

Far more thing.

[John Caramonica]

I'm saying. Eight. It's an eight for Me, I'd eat the whole bag.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, it's, yeah, it's a, I'm not like thrilled by it.

[Gracie Abrams]

I actually don't even want to finish this.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But it's a really. But from a gummy perspective, I find it really sturdy. It's not too chewy, it's not too stiff. We ate some other Canadian gummies recently that we were really impressed with.

[Gracie Abrams]

Yeah. Sweet or sour?

[Joe Coscarelli]

They're actually on the table. We'll show you they're on the table. We'll show you the extra package back.

[Gracie Abrams]

Thanks.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think.

[John Caramonica]

I mean, you're on a roller coaster with these.

[Gracie Abrams]

I actually don't like this anymore.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wow.

[Gracie Abrams]

I hate.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wait, what's happening?

[John Caramonica]

The watermelon turned her off.

[Gracie Abrams]

I don't know. But I don't, I, I, I don't think I like anything about the aftertaste here. And I think I. That was this. Pickles redeemed themselves.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You want to do pickle hit again just to square even it out.

[Gracie Abrams]

Thought you would never.

[John Caramonica]

Pickleback is what they call it.

[Gracie Abrams]

That was great.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Even as a non drinker, I know what that is.

[John Caramonica]

I think I taught you that on this show.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, I, I watch tv.

[Gracie Abrams]

Oh, Jesus Christ.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I watch tv.

[John Caramonica]

This was making a mess. I hope you don't have an appointment after this.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Who makes the pants?

[Gracie Abrams]

The row?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, I was going to say. I was actually going to say the row.

[Gracie Abrams]

They're not mine. They're not mine.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's okay.

[John Caramonica]

I was going to say don't.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No pickle dust on the row.

[John Caramonica]

First. First time nasty gummies have ever been dropped on the row.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Definitely. I'm just, I'm actually startled. I felt like I was candidate number one to detest those. And I'm startled that it's you who's having this reaction.

[John Caramonica]

We need your rating on the rings.

[Gracie Abrams]

Four.

[John Caramonica]

Okay, wait.

[Joe Coscarelli]

How do you act when it's a two? If that's how you act when it's a four? Wow. Okay.

[Gracie Abrams]

Flip the table.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay.

[Gracie Abrams]

Burn the couch.

[John Caramonica]

You're well done.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Well, great, because then we'll just take early delivery on the next one.

[Gracie Abrams]

Well, maybe, I don't know.

[John Caramonica]

No, you could say four's four.

[Joe Coscarelli]

A four is a four.

[John Caramonica]

Now we left you holding all this

[Gracie Abrams]

garbage that the aftertaste of the rings are not my favorite. And then I was like, let me palette cleanse.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Start off with the pickle to start with pickles. It's tastes ugly. What would you even call ugliness in taste? What is that even? Is there a word for that? Is there like a German word for that? There's got to be a German word. Germans in the audience. Please be in the comments.

[Gracie Abrams]

That is foul. Gracie Abrams, thank you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

First of all, very gay.

[John Caramonica]

Yes.

[Gracie Abrams]

Sorry.

[John Caramonica]

Thank you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Mary Kate and Ashley, we're so sorry. We didn't mean to get any pickle dust on your pants. We feel terrible.

[Gracie Abrams]

A sentence that's never been spoken before in the history of the human.

[Joe Coscarelli]

As with many sentences on podcast, that's how we like to roll. Gracie Abrams, thank you so much. Thanks for being game. Exciting. Very fun to have you. We appreciate it. Every episode of Popcast [e-mail] popcast you're watching us on YouTube. As of course you should be. YouTube.com podcast like and subscribe. Check us on Instagram, check us on TikTok. Check us anywhere you would like to be absorbed and focused. And we'll be back next week.

[John Caramonica]

We're gonna work on these outro.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Sorry, I'm tired.

[Gracie Abrams]

I really want to be absorbed.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yes, this is.

[Gracie Abrams]

Check this.

[John Caramonica]

Cheer.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I am my grandmother's grandson.

[Gracie Abrams]

That's amazing. What else you got?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Caffeinated gum.

[Gracie Abrams]

Are you okay?

[Joe Coscarelli]

No. Oh, my God.

[Gracie Abrams]

That's why you need the ambience.

[John Caramonica]

The water.

[Joe Coscarelli]

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