Podcast Summary: The Interview (The New York Times)
Episode: Raja Shehadeh Believes Israelis and Palestinians Can Still Find Peace
Host: David Marchese
Guest: Raja Shehadeh
Release Date: December 20, 2025
Overview
This episode features a deep and candid conversation between host David Marchese and Raja Shehadeh, a celebrated Palestinian writer, lawyer, and human rights activist from Ramallah. Across two conversations, they examine the lived reality of the Israeli occupation, the evolution of Palestinian identity, and the prospects for peace. The discussion delves into grief, justice, anger, narratives, and nonviolent resistance, while also reflecting honestly on the limits and hopes of cross-cultural understanding.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Family History and Exile
- Personal Origins (02:26–03:29)
- Shehadeh recounts how his family fled Jaffa during the 1948 war, relocating to Ramallah with the intention of returning soon:
"They left on 28 April to Ramallah and they were never able to return." (03:23)
- He describes the “exile’s consciousness”—living with the feeling that the real home is always elsewhere:
"Where you are is not home. Where you are is temporary and the real home is somewhere else..." (04:38)
- Shehadeh recounts how his family fled Jaffa during the 1948 war, relocating to Ramallah with the intention of returning soon:
2. Agency, Anger, and Hope
- Life Under Occupation (03:29–06:18)
- Shehadeh talks about the psychological impact of occupation and displacement, the sense of impermanence, and familial longing for Jaffa.
- Relationship with Anger
- He sees anger as a "dead end" and an impediment to productive action:
"Anger is it imprisons you. And I didn't want ever to be angry to the point of being immobilized." (05:25)
- He sees anger as a "dead end" and an impediment to productive action:
3. Justice and Documentation
- Role of Justice-Driven Politics (06:18–07:58)
- Shehadeh emphasizes the importance of documenting abuses and de-mystifying colonial processes:
"The colonization works by mystifying, by making people lose a sense of who they are..." (06:38)
- He aims to remind younger generations what the landscape and relationships were like before the settlements and checkpoints.
- Shehadeh emphasizes the importance of documenting abuses and de-mystifying colonial processes:
4. Disconnection and Dehumanization
- Severed Interactions (08:10–09:02)
- Notes the lack of normal contact between ordinary Israelis and Palestinians due to walls, checkpoints, and the occupation:
"Palestinians have never met an Israeli who is not a settler or a soldier ... likewise the Israelis of the Palestinians." (08:10)
- Notes the lack of normal contact between ordinary Israelis and Palestinians due to walls, checkpoints, and the occupation:
- Illusion of Collective Responsibility
- Warns against broad-brush assignations of guilt:
"That delusion was very dangerous because it led to the genocide in Gaza... leaders indoctrinate their people..." (09:35)
- Warns against broad-brush assignations of guilt:
5. Education for Peace
- Breaking the Illusion (10:31–11:07)
- Argues for education about shared history of coexistence, not just conflict:
"They can start teaching about the other and teaching the literature of the other... concentrate on the brighter spots." (10:31)
- Argues for education about shared history of coexistence, not just conflict:
6. Experiences of Zionism and Distinction from Judaism
- Personal Impact of Zionism (12:02–13:19)
- Shehadeh separates his critique of Zionism from anti-Semitism:
"Zionism, which is trying to use the religion to promote a certain political project, is an enemy to me. And the two are separate in my mind entirely." (13:49)
- Describes the strategy to make life so difficult that Palestinians would leave as “negative magnet”.
- Shehadeh separates his critique of Zionism from anti-Semitism:
7. Friendship, Suffering, and Mutual Recognition
- Jewish–Palestinian Friendships (14:30–15:59)
- Friendship requires mutual recognition of suffering and rights, especially the right of return:
"The important thing is to be clear and open. And that, I think, can be the basis for a relationship between Israelis and Palestinians." (14:50)
- Discusses the pain when Israeli friends do not acknowledge suffering:
"Now with the genocide, it's a very big challenge... I expect the Israeli friend to speak out..." (15:36)
- Friendship requires mutual recognition of suffering and rights, especially the right of return:
- Competition of Suffering
- Criticizes justification of violence based on one’s own trauma:
"But to use that [Holocaust suffering] as a justification for causing more suffering... is untenable. It's wrong, immoral." (16:54)
- Criticizes justification of violence based on one’s own trauma:
8. Double Consciousness and Internal Israeli Contradictions
- Refusal to Acknowledge Harm (17:44–18:27)
- Israelis may know and not know at the same time about their role in Palestinian suffering.
9. Self-Destructive Policies of Israel
- Long-term Impact (18:51–20:07)
- Settlement-supporting policies are corroding Israeli democracy and society itself:
"The right wing in Israel is trying to destroy some of the bases for the good things that Israel had of democracy..." (18:51)
- Settlement-supporting policies are corroding Israeli democracy and society itself:
10. Twin Narratives and Recognition
- Toward a Shared Narrative (20:44–21:42)
- Mutual recognition of self-determination is essential for a new, inclusive narrative:
"Both sides must recognize the right of the other for self determination. And if there is a recognition... then this is a very important starting point..." (20:44)
- Mutual recognition of self-determination is essential for a new, inclusive narrative:
11. The Power and Limits of Storytelling
- Permission to Narrate (21:56–22:57)
- Observes that Palestinians have gained more space to tell their stories since the Gaza war, in contrast to Edward Said’s era.
12. Engaging with Media
- On Boycotting Major Outlets (23:17–24:10)
- Shehadeh acknowledges past failings in coverage but advocates for ongoing engagement and dialogue with influential media.
13. Responses to October 7 and Hamas’ Actions
- Understanding Complex Reactions (24:54–26:34)
- Describes initial feelings of happiness at Gaza “breaking the barrier”, but clarifies that atrocities must be condemned.
- Distinguishes legitimate resistance from violations of human rights:
"The attempt at taking a stand against Israel is legitimate, but the excesses that go on with that are not acceptable to me." (26:34)
14. Refusing to Speak for All
- Shehadeh insists he does not represent all Palestinians and prefers explanation to empty condemnation:
"I speak my mind... even if they are unpopular, I did not change them." (27:54)
15. On the Two-State vs. One-State Solution
- Expresses personal caution about the feasibility of a one-state solution and the need for stepwise progress (29:15–29:39).
16. Prospects for Peace and Hope
- Future Directions (30:59–32:23)
- Finds hope in the growing international recognition for Palestinian statehood and the power of grassroots activism, referencing the anti-apartheid struggle.
Second Conversation Key Insights
17. On the Language of Apartheid and Genocide
- Terminology and Its Power (36:21–37:44)
- Shehadeh was initially cautious about using charged terms to avoid derailing the facts, but now insists on their accuracy and legal implications:
"Now that it has become very clear that the situation is one of apartheid, I think it's very important to use the term." (36:55)
- Shehadeh was initially cautious about using charged terms to avoid derailing the facts, but now insists on their accuracy and legal implications:
18. Effectiveness of Nonviolent Resistance
- Obstacles to Ethical Resistance (38:14–39:41)
- U.S. and international failure to support nonviolent Palestinian resistance reinforces extremism:
"When people have no protection against Israeli brutality ... the answer is the only way to do is to fight like Hamas." (38:45)
- U.S. and international failure to support nonviolent Palestinian resistance reinforces extremism:
19. Intergenerational Differences
- Tactics and Tone (41:40–43:12)
- Acknowledges generational differences in activism styles, but holds that his own lifelong approach involves understanding the other side to effect change—despite recognizing it "has never worked":
"I've always been hesitant to use strident language ... to win the other side, but it has never worked." (42:47)
- Acknowledges generational differences in activism styles, but holds that his own lifelong approach involves understanding the other side to effect change—despite recognizing it "has never worked":
20. Raja’s Wish for the New Year
- A Vision of Hope (43:44–44:36)
- Calls for an end to the Gaza siege, for Israelis to witness the destruction firsthand, and a chance for Gazans to rebuild:
"I would like the end of the Gaza siege... it will end their suffering that has been going on for 18 years. It's too much. Too much." (43:50)
- Calls for an end to the Gaza siege, for Israelis to witness the destruction firsthand, and a chance for Gazans to rebuild:
Memorable Quotes and Timestamps
- "Anger is a dead end. Anger is it imprisons you."
—Raja Shehadeh (05:25) - "Palestinians have never met an Israeli who is not a settler or a soldier."
—Raja Shehadeh (08:10) - "Zionism, which is trying to use the religion to promote a certain political project, is an enemy to me. And the two are separate in my mind entirely."
—Raja Shehadeh (13:49) - "It's important to realize that we have two nations living on one small strip of land, that eventually they had to live together."
—Raja Shehadeh (43:19) - "I would like the end of the Gaza siege ... And so this is my hope for the new year. And it is not a small thing. It's a big thing, but it's my hope."
—Raja Shehadeh (43:50)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 02:26 Family History and the Reality of Exile
- 05:25 On Anger and Hope
- 06:38 The Importance of Documentation
- 08:10 Loss of Contact Across the Divide
- 10:31 Breaking Down Stereotypes in Education
- 13:49 Zionism vs. Judaism
- 14:50 Friendship and Recognition
- 17:44 Double Consciousness Described
- 18:51 Israel's Self-Destructive Path
- 20:44 The Need for a Shared Narrative
- 21:56 Palestinians' Permission to Narrate
- 23:17 Navigating Media Engagement
- 24:54 Reactions to October 7th
- 26:34 Resistance, Bravery, and Human Rights
- 29:15 Two-State vs. One-State Debate
- 30:59 Hopes for Palestinian Statehood
- 36:55 Why Use Terms Like ‘Apartheid’ or ‘Genocide’
- 38:45 The Futility of Non-Violent Resistance Without Support
- 43:50 Wish for the New Year: End the Gaza Siege
Tone and Language
Shehadeh’s tone is deeply humane, reflective, and consistently measured—even as he addresses tragedy, injustice, and missed opportunities for reconciliation. Marchese matches his candor and curiosity, probing difficult issues without sensationalism.
Conclusion
Raja Shehadeh’s perspective offers a rare synthesis of steadfast advocacy and empathetic optimism. Throughout the interview, he emphasizes the need for mutual recognition, accurate storytelling, and efforts to humanize the "other"—while rigorously avoiding both hatred and hopelessness. His appeal is for lasting peace rooted in justice, memory, and patient activism, even as dire conditions on the ground persist.