The Interview – Rev. James Martin on Our Moral Duty in Turbulent Times

Podcast: The Interview by The New York Times
Host: Lulu Garcia-Navarro
Guest: Father James Martin, SJ
Date: February 3, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Lulu Garcia-Navarro speaks with Father James Martin—a Jesuit priest, bestselling author, and Vatican consultant—about navigating America's moral and spiritual crises amid social and political division. Their conversation covers Father Martin's new memoir Work in Progress, lessons from his working-class upbringing, the evolving role of the Catholic Church in the U.S., the challenges and moral imperatives facing faith leaders, and the fraught topic of LGBTQ inclusion within the church. In a follow-up segment, Martin offers reflections on maintaining moral clarity and compassion during times of heightened violence and polarization.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Finding God in the Small Moments

• Attentiveness to the Divine: Martin opens by expanding on a recent article, discussing how despair distracts us from seeing God’s presence in everyday life.
  • Quote: “God’s presence is not just confined to within the walls of a church or in reading the Bible, but it’s in nature and relationships and work and food and entertainment. And so the key is just being attentive and aware.”
    (03:30)
• Subtlety of Grace: God often communicates quietly, through unexpected kindness or moments of calm, rather than dramatic interventions.
  “Sometimes God’s a lot more quiet and subtle, tricky.” (04:06)

2. Working-Class Lessons and Vocational Calling

• Background: Martin shares stories from his memoir, recounting summer jobs as a busboy, caddy, and dishwasher, highlighting how these experiences shaped his understanding of dignity and service.
  • Quote: “Not to treat people who are on the lower rungs of the economic ladder like dirt. That’s one of the first things I learned.” (06:29)
• Corporate Alienation: Reflections on experiencing “soul-destroying” corporate culture after attending Wharton and working at GE. Therapy and an encounter with Trappist monk Thomas Merton’s autobiography steered him toward the Jesuits.
  • A pivotal question:
    “What would you do if you could do anything you wanted to do? … That’s easy. I’d join the Jesuits.” (08:09)

3. The Catholic Church in a Fractured America

• Current State: Martin describes U.S. Catholicism as “healthy...except for the fact that only 30% are going regularly.” Division reflects the country’s political schisms, though both conservative and progressive Catholics want unity. (10:09)
• Young People & ‘Post-Secular’ Faith: Despite secularization, he sees a surprising surge in young adult engagement, motivated by a “natural desire for God” and a hunger for community and meaning.
  • Quote: “They want a sense of meaning. They want a sense of mystery. They want Community is a big word, Right. They want to belong.” (11:45)
• Challenges: The greatest crisis isn’t division between conservatives and progressives, but loss of belief altogether.

4. The Historic Moment: An American Pope

• Impact on American Church: The rise of Pope Leo (an American) brings the Vatican—literally and symbolically—closer to U.S. Catholics. It makes the papacy feel accessible and relevant.
  • On his potential visit:
    “His first visit to the US Is going to be nuts.” (13:57)
• Balancing Politics: Pope Leo resists direct involvement in partisan politics but will advocate on moral issues rooted in the Gospels (e.g., immigration, poverty).
  • Quote: “His mission is to preach the gospel. And if the gospel has political implications, so be it.” (14:33)

5. Navigating Division and Moral Duty

• Immigration as a Litmus Test: The Church’s long-standing commitment to migrants and refugees stands at odds with current political discourse and policy.
  • Quote: “It’s really kind of, we sometimes say, invincible ignorance. It can’t be surmounted.” (18:30)
• Practical Church Responses: Direct action—standing physically and emotionally with the marginalized—is paramount.
  • Story of Greg Boyle: “He said, are you standing with them? … then that’s all you should do.” (21:23)
• Refusal to Demonize: Maintaining unity means avoiding demonization and giving opponents the benefit of the doubt.
  • “It’s never demonizing the other person, right? Always giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.” (20:29)

6. LGBTQ Ministry and Controversy

• Catalyst for Advocacy: The 2016 Pulse massacre and the church’s muted response motivated Martin’s public support for LGBTQ Catholics.
  • Quote: “What does this community have to do to get the church to notice it? Does it have to be murdered?” (23:09)
• Mixed Reactions: At the Vatican synod, Martin encountered praise, requests for help, and harsh criticism—especially from bishops in Africa and Eastern Europe.
  • Quote: “I had a archbishop, I won’t say from where, say to me, the reason that there are gay people in my country is because people like you pay them to be gay.” (25:34)
• Vision for the Church: Martin stresses the need for listening, and points out many parishes already welcome LGBTQ people, even if official teaching lags behind.

7. Politics, Faith, and American Public Life

• Mixing Religion and Politics: Expressing faith in public life is virtuous if it doesn’t lead to exclusionary moral certitude.
  • Quote: “As long as it doesn't imply that somehow God is, like, on our side. Completely. Right. And if you’re not with us, then you’re against God. That’s the problem.” (30:24)
• Reframing Religious Language: Martin wonders why Christians advocate posting the Ten Commandments in schools but rarely push for the Beatitudes (“Blessed are the poor... Blessed are the meek”), which are arguably more challenging today.
  (31:09)

8. Confession, Human Nature, and Forgiveness

• Confession as Grace: Martin discusses the profound privilege of administering the sacrament, emphasizing God’s mercy over human failing.
  • Quote: “Confession is not about how bad the person is, it’s about how good God is.” (32:06)
• Universal Struggle and Hope: People continuously strive and fail—and are always worthy of forgiveness.

Second Conversation: Moral Clarity in a Violent Age

(begins at 34:48)

• Navigating Hate: Martin shares advice for engaging in activism without deepening polarization.

  • Practical Tips:
    1. Always give people the benefit of the doubt.
    2. Never go ad hominem. Critique actions or policies, but not personal worth.
    3. Accept not everyone will like you; “Must everyone like you?” (36:11)
  • Facing Hatred: He recounts receiving hatred and threats due to his advocacy, and describes spiritual practices to cultivate resilience.

• Moral Clarity and Human Dignity:

  • On Violence: Martin responds to recent violence in Minneapolis (the killing of Renee Goode), warning of society’s “coarsening of morality” and the danger of treating opponents as less than human.
    • Quote: “For Jesus, there’s no us and them, there’s just us. And all of us deserve to be treated with dignity.” (39:24)
  • Realistic Activism: Instead of seeking sweeping solutions, Martin urges listeners to focus on “the person in front of you”—emulating Jesus’s example of direct, individual engagement.
    • “Jesus dealt with the person in front of him and so can we.” (41:28)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Divine Subtlety:
  “Sometimes God’s a lot more quiet and subtle, tricky.” (04:06, Martin)

• On Church Division:
  “It was amazing to me...some of the same people who said you could never disagree with the Pope under John Paul and Benedict were like, disagreeing with Francis constantly and calling him an anti pope ...” (15:44, Martin)

• On LGBTQ Inclusion:
  “It’s a very selective sort of focus on LGBTQ people, unfortunately, in the church, because you don't say to somebody...anyone who uses birth control...Right. These are all sinful things. We don’t focus on that. How about anyone who doesn’t care for the environment...We don’t focus on them. They’re welcome. So why not LGBTQ people?” (26:32, Martin)

• On Resilience:
  “‘Must everyone like you?’ … That was really a moment of invitation for me.” (37:07, Martin recounting a spiritual insight)

• On Moral Action:
  “Jesus dealt with the person in front of him and so can we.” (41:28, Martin)

Key Timestamps

• 03:30 – Finding God in all things; noticing daily graces
• 06:29 – Lessons from manual labor; dignity for every person
• 07:37 – Corporate burnout and vocational calling
• 10:02 – Health and divisions in the American Catholic Church
• 11:45 – Why young Catholics are returning
• 13:36 – The effect of an American pope
• 16:33 – On immigration and the Church’s response
• 21:23 – Church’s duty is to ‘stand with’ the marginalized
• 22:54 – Father Martin’s LGBTQ advocacy
• 26:32 – Church as a welcoming place for LGBTQ people
• 32:06 – Confession: a lesson in divine mercy
• 34:48 – Follow-up: violence in America, Minneapolis
• 36:11 – Navigating division: practical spiritual advice
• 39:24 – The ongoing crisis of human dignity
• 41:28 – Activism through direct, personal engagement

Tone & Style

The conversation is thoughtful, frank, and often light-hearted. Martin’s blend of spiritual wisdom, humor, and willingness to face the church’s and society’s hardest questions gives the episode both gravity and hope.

Recommended for listeners looking for guidance on how to sustain moral conviction, compassion, and spiritual awareness in a time of political and cultural upheaval.