Episode Overview

Podcast: The Interview
Host: Lulu Garcia-Navarro (The New York Times)
Guest: Simon Cowell
Episode Title: Simon Cowell Is Sorry, Softer and Grieving Liam Payne
Date: November 29, 2025

This intimate episode delves into the transformation of Simon Cowell, once “the king of mean” on reality TV, as he reflects on his career, his evolving public persona, experiences of loss, and his current efforts to launch a new boy band in a rapidly changing music landscape. Cowell discusses facing the grief of losing Liam Payne of One Direction, his regrets and lessons learned, and his new perspective on life, fame, and fatherhood.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cowell’s Public Persona: From “King of Mean” to Softer Figure

• Cowell warmly welcomes Lulu to his London home, describing his life now as his "cozy era." (00:35)
• Lulu recounts the power of “booing” Cowell at an America’s Got Talent taping, asking what it’s like from his perspective:
  • Simon Cowell: “It makes me laugh, to be honest with you… in that moment, they're, like, really, like you said, invested.” (02:54)
  • Cowell encourages honest audience reactions; he relays his father’s wisdom to make everyone around him feel important, which still guides his approach. (03:58)

2. Early Career, Cultural Relevance, and Embracing “Uncool” Hits

• Cowell’s school struggles led to a series of odd jobs before his mother landed him an entry-level job at EMI. (05:14–08:26)
• He explains his unconventional, bottom-up approach to the music business:
  • Simon Cowell: “All I was thinking was, I've just got to keep a job… and I know what it feels like to be broke because I was broke and I didn’t want to go back there again.” (11:35)
  • His willingness to sign “gimmicky” acts (Power Rangers, WrestleMania) stemmed from the need to “keep the lights on” and an understanding of what’s popular, not just what’s “cool.” (13:24)
  • He describes his strategy of breaking records via gay club play, leveraging cultural tastemakers others overlooked. (09:17–10:52)

3. Looks, Talent, and the Recipe for Pop Success

• On Westlife: Cowell originally turned them down for lack of chemistry and looks, then signed them after they were restyled. He emphasizes that the “song is probably the most important factor in all of this.” (14:38–16:20)
• He confesses to aggressive tactics, such as locking songwriters in his office for a deal.
  • Simon Cowell: “I locked them in my office. And I said, you're not leaving until we do a deal.” (16:03)

4. Regrets and Missed Opportunities

• Cowell reflects on losing out on signing the Spice Girls:
  • “That was really, really hard… But every time… it just makes you more determined.” (16:43–18:01)

5. The Reality Television Era: Idol, X Factor, and the Drawbacks of Bluntness

• Shares that his strategy on Idol was motivated by finding genuinely talented artists to sign, not just being a shock judge.
  • He acknowledges regret: “I'm sorry. Well, just being a dick.” (19:30–20:23)
  • Cowell admits the editors favored his meanest moments: “Of course, you know, out of a hundred nice comments, what are they going to use? They're always going to use… me being in a bad mood.” (19:43)
• He diplomatically explains Ryan Seacrest’s enduring ubiquity as due to ambition and hard work, but offers little detail. (21:05–21:27)

6. Britney Spears, Conservatorship, and the Difficulties of Fame

• Details his efforts to recruit Britney Spears as an X Factor judge:
  • “She was so fun, engaged, passionate…” in their phone conversations, but “she really struggled with saying no to people” on the show and “wasn’t happy.” (22:29–24:57)
• On reading Spears’ memoir, Cowell reflects: “That's a shame. I did say to the network, I don't know if she wants to do it… And actually, she also mentioned to me how much she didn't like pop music.” (25:01)

7. The Formation and Aftermath of One Direction

• Reminisces about assembling One Direction during X Factor, describing Liam Payne’s evolution and the chemistry between the boys. (26:14–27:38)
• Cowell heard news of Liam Payne’s death during filming for his new Netflix docuseries:
  • “It was like, wow. It’s a bit like I felt when I heard the news about when my dad passed away… it’s just a shock, total shock and a surprise.” (28:02)
• Guilt and limits of care:
  • “If I could go back in time to that one day… What if I’d said this?... But, you know, there’s only so much you can do with any artist.” (30:29–31:52)

8. The Toll and Paradox of Fame

• Considers the challenges of attaining and managing fame:
  • “I don’t honestly know what is harder, which is trying to be famous or managing your fame. Both are equally difficult.” (33:57)
• Discusses his responsibility for the young artists he launches: “It’s always complicated… You have to work differently with each artist.” (32:18)

9. The Current State and Future of the Industry

• On the lack of new breakout bands from the UK/US versus K-pop’s global dominance: “I don’t know… I knew that KPop was gonna be big. I could sort of feel it.” (35:05)
• On AI-generated music: “I guess so… if I thought it would be successful… I’m not thrilled at the prospect, if I’m being honest.” (36:03)
• On staying relevant as an older scouter in today’s supercharged, TikTok-driven climate: “The change in 10 years is ginormous… you just have to… There’s just no guarantee.” (37:01)

10. Personal Life, Grief, and Transformation

• Cowell discusses family and personal losses—his parents’ deaths and the impact on his mental health.
  • On the turning point of his son’s birth: “Well, it saved me, if I’m being honest with you, Lulu.” (45:45)
  • “I always had suffered from depression… it was like my life changed when he was born. Everything started again.” (46:45)
  • On parenting: “He came in one day and it was about 2:30 in the afternoon and he went, dad, what are you doing asleep? And I went, God, he’s right. I’ve got to readjust.” (47:42)
• On personal growth and softening: “I'm, I'm more, I think, more confident in myself now… I'm not afraid to take on new things.” (48:49)

11. Reflections on Technology, Culture, and Legacy

• Cowell and Lulu ruminate on whether they would stop the internet if given the chance. Cowell argues yes:
  • “I personally think that people were happier then than now.” (50:22)
• On contemporary culture’s cruelty versus his own softening:
  • “I sort of live in a slight bubble, because I don't have a phone and I don't read anything online or… newspapers… I'm happier that way.” (52:32)

12. Fun Lightning Round

• Favorite new artist: “Chapel Roan. Eric [his son] played it to me, and I went, that is one of the best songs I've heard in years.” (53:15)
• Reality TV? “No.” Housewives? “No.” Celebrity Traders? “Never.” (53:29–53:35)
• Still wants to be cryogenically frozen? Used to, but not anymore; now believes in “something good that happens afterwards.” (53:40–54:23)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On audience feedback:
  “If you ever lose sight of that… you're in the wrong job. Because the minute you put a song out, or you go on TV… then of course your life is going to change. But ironically, the audience are paying for your salary, so you can't not talk to them or be nice to them.” (03:58, Simon Cowell)

• On career ethos:
  “All I was thinking was, I've just got to keep a job… and I know what it feels like to be broke because I was broke and I didn’t want to go back there again.” (11:35, Simon Cowell)

• Apology for harshness:
  “I've got to be honest with you. That's why I did change over time. I mean, I did realize I've probably gone too far… I was frustrated. I didn’t particularly. I still don’t like audition days because they’re long and boring…. What can I say? I'm sorry.” (19:43–20:21, Simon Cowell)

• On managing fame:
  “I don’t honestly know what is harder, which is trying to be famous or managing your fame. Both are equally difficult.” (33:57, Simon Cowell)

• On personal loss and transformation:
  “Well, it saved me, if I’m being honest with you, Lulu. When my mum passed away in 2015… it was like feeling like an orphan, genuinely. And thank God my mom… met Eric and you know what is amazing? And he remembers her vaguely because he was really young and my mom gave him this brown blanket… to this day, he will not go anywhere without that brown blanket.” (45:45, Simon Cowell)

• On fatherhood jolting him out of depression:
  “He came in one day and it was about 2:30 in the afternoon and he went, dad, what are you doing asleep? And I went, God, he’s right. What am I doing asleep? I’ve got to readjust.” (47:42, Simon Cowell)

• On fame and the internet’s impact:
  “I liked the time when we didn’t have so much choice… it was such a fun, amazing time. And I personally think that people were happier then than now.” (50:22, Simon Cowell)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Greeting and reflections on public persona: 00:35–03:58
• Cowell’s path into the music industry and early strategies: 05:14–13:24
• Westlife, looks vs. talent, and signing hits: 14:38–16:20
• Regrets and the ones that got away (Spice Girls): 16:43–18:01
• Idol era and public persona: apology and self-reflection: 18:41–20:23
• Britney Spears and X Factor: 22:14–25:40
• Formation of One Direction & Liam Payne’s death: 26:14–29:55
• On the music industry’s duty of care: 30:29–33:35
• On fame’s paradoxes and industry changes: 33:52–38:02
• Personal loss, fatherhood, and growth: 45:45–48:49
• Reflections on culture, the internet, and legacy: 49:32–52:32
• Lightning round (favorite artists, reality TV, beliefs): 53:15–55:08

Final Thoughts

This episode presents a humanized Simon Cowell—reflective, oft-apologetic, and reshaped by loss and fatherhood—whose instinct for popular taste remains sharp yet humble in the face of today’s cultural and technological shifts. Cowell expresses regret for his past harshness, deep sorrow over Liam Payne’s death, and a belief that personal connections and kindness matter more than ever. Those only familiar with his “king of mean” persona will find a candid, vulnerable Cowell changed by life and ready—still—to take a risk on something new.