The Grody-Patinkin Family Is a Mess. People Love It.

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Grody-Patinkin Family Is a Mess. People Love It."

The Interview by The New York Times
Release Date: July 12, 2025
Hosts: David Marchese and Lulu Garcia-Navarro
Guests: Mandy Patinkin, Catherine Grody, and Gideon Patinkin

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1. Introduction to the Grody-Patinkin Family

David Marchese opens the episode by introducing Mandy Patinkin and Catherine Grody, a couple married for 45 years. Mandy is renowned for his Tony Award-winning performances and roles in iconic productions like The Princess Bride and Homeland. Catherine is an accomplished Off-Broadway actress, playwright, and author. Their younger son, Gideon Patinkin, has garnered a significant online following through his TikTok videos showcasing his parents' candid interactions, leading to the family's venture into an advice podcast and a TV pilot titled Seasoned.

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2. Embracing Family Messiness

The conversation delves into the family's self-described "messiness." Mandy humorously remarks, “You need to take some medication” ([02:11]), highlighting their playful dynamic. Catherine embraces their messy nature, stating, “I embrace being messy more than I ever have as a reaction against the whole AI chatbot algorithm world. It’s like, I want to be messy, I want to be human...” ([02:32]). This authenticity resonates with their audience, providing a relatable glimpse into family life during challenging times.

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3. Navigating Long-term Relationships

Mandy and Catherine reflect on their enduring marriage, discussing how their relationship dynamics have evolved over 45 years. Catherine shares the initial turbulence of their relationship, mentioning a pivotal first date where Mandy declared, “I’m gonna marry you” ([10:16]). Despite contemplating separation twice, they chose to commit daily, fostering resilience and deepening their bond. Mandy adds, “Let it go and move on, as the song says,” emphasizing the importance of releasing grudges and embracing the present ([12:18]).

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4. Coping with Emotional Challenges

The couple candidly discusses their emotional struggles. Mandy opens up about losing a friend and the anxiety that ensued, leading to visible signs like a cold sore ([02:57]). Catherine acknowledges their collective emotional responses, noting how their older son learned to manage his reactions by observing their behavior ([03:27]). Their son, Gideon, adds perspective by highlighting how witnessing their emotional turbulence taught him valuable life lessons about maintaining joy and perspective ([04:05]).

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5. The Impact of Social Media and Public Persona

The family's unexpected online fame began during the pandemic when Gideon's TikTok videos resonated with a wide audience seeking familial warmth. Catherine theorizes, “We seemed to offer some comfort or warmth... people don't have, in general, the bias about elders” ([05:55]). They discuss the authenticity of their online presence, emphasizing that their popularity grew organically without intentional self-promotion. Mandy humorously notes, “Sometimes I take a little kombucha... and the next thing we know, we get boxes of it” ([07:46]), illustrating the serendipitous nature of their online success.

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6. Political Activism and Jewish Identity

The Grody-Patinkin family's political engagement is a significant topic. Catherine passionately speaks about their stance on the Gaza ceasefire and condemns antisemitism, clarifying that their critical views on certain Israeli policies do not equate to self-hatred or antisemitism. She asserts, “Compassion for every person in Gaza is very Jewish... I am very proud of every Jewish person that stands up for the humanity of people in the Middle East” ([24:29]). Mandy adds a personal narrative, sharing his experiences and urging Jewish individuals worldwide to reflect on the consequences of their actions, emphasizing the sanctity of human life over political affiliations ([25:52]).

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7. Parenting and Third-Generation Influence

Gideon offers insights into his parents' parenting style, appreciating their openness and the lessons learned from their emotional displays. He mentions, “One of the gifts is I've seen their often hysterical, emotional, painful response to things... if they could take a moment, they'd enjoy their experience a bit more” ([04:05]). The discussion also touches upon their grandchildren, with Catherine expressing her joy and the simple wonders she observes through their interactions with the young family members ([31:33]).

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8. Creative Ventures and Future Projects

The family is actively working on expanding their creative endeavors. They are developing an advice podcast and collaborating on a TV pilot, Seasoned, co-written by Gideon. Catherine discusses her exploration of new intellectual pursuits, including physics and the concept of cosmic interconnectivity, while Mandy shares his continuous journey of personal growth and managing anxiety through mindfulness and living in the moment ([36:40], [38:49]).

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9. Boundaries and Privacy in the Public Eye

Despite their online presence, the Grody-Patinkin family maintains strict boundaries regarding their personal lives. They are selective about what they share, especially concerning their grandchildren and deeply personal matters. Catherine recounts her past mistake of using her children's real names in a play, leading to a reinforced commitment to privacy ([44:07]). Mandy emphasizes their respect for personal boundaries, ensuring that only what they choose to share is made public ([42:20]).

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10. Reflections on Family and Growth

In closing, the family reflects on their journey, acknowledging the complexities and messiness that make their relationships genuine. Gideon encapsulates this sentiment by describing their family as a "big, swirling, beautiful mess" ([52:29]). They express gratitude for their enduring bond and the continuous effort to find joy amidst challenges.

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Notable Quotes

• Catherine Grody ([02:32]): “I embrace being messy more than I ever have as a reaction against the whole AI chatbot algorithm world. It’s like, I want to be messy, I want to be human...”

• Mandy Patinkin ([12:18]): “Let it go and move on, as the song says.”

• Catherine Grody ([24:29]): “Compassion for every person in Gaza is very Jewish... I am very proud of every Jewish person that stands up for the humanity of people in the Middle East.”

• Mandy Patinkin ([25:52]): “I ask you Jews everywhere... to think, is this acceptable and sustainable?”

• Gideon Patinkin ([52:29]): “I think we're just as messy and complex and contradictory as, like any other family that's trying to get along...”

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Conclusion

The Grody-Patinkin family's openness about their imperfections and genuine interactions have endeared them to a broad audience. Their willingness to share personal struggles, combined with their commitment to authenticity and growth, offers valuable insights into maintaining strong family bonds amidst life's inevitable challenges. This episode serves as a testament to the beauty found in embracing one's messiness and the enduring power of love and honesty within a family.

Transcript

[David Marchese]

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[Mandy Patinkin]

You need to take some medication.

[Catherine Grody]

I might.

[David Marchese]

Maybe at the end.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Maybe.

[David Marchese]

We'll see how it goes. So in the social media post where you said you were working on an advice podcast, Mandy, you referred to you two as messes. Katherine, do you think that you're messes?

[Catherine Grody]

Oh, definitely. What do you call purposeful messes? I mean, I actually, it's interesting. I embrace being messy more than I ever have as a reaction against the whole AI chatbot algorithm world. It's like, I want to be messy, I want to be human, I want to make mistakes, I want to apologize, I want to be tactile, you know? So, yeah, we're messes.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Speaking of mess, I'm also a mess, emotionally a mess. And I lost a friend and the memorial was on Monday. I needed to speak and I was extremely anxious about it. And that's why I have this cold sore on my lip, which no matter what, it's not gonna be hidden. I'm sorry. I'm a member of Spinal Tap, right?

[David Marchese]

Yes. For people who don't know there's a scene in Spinal Tap where all the.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Members of the band have told stories.

[David Marchese]

You lean into it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you. So back to her. Mess.

[David Marchese]

Yes.

[Catherine Grody]

I mean, how you know by mess I just mean we're not careful with each other. We're all react. Well, he's not reactive and our older son is not reactive because I think in reaction to seeing us be so immediately hysterical about things their whole lives they've lear to embrace taking a breath. But it's funny, over the years when I tried to contain the mess, I now just think it's human and I'm letting it out.

[David Marchese]

Gideon, do you think what your mom just described about how your parents messiness maybe led to a particular emotional reaction from you, does that sound accurate? Is that how you experienced it?

[Gideon Patinkin]

Yeah, 100%. I mean, they've been great teachers in what to do in the world and what not to do in the world. And I think one of the gifts is I've seen their often hysterical, emotional, painful response to things not be in service of their life and joy. And if they could take a beat, take a moment and have a little more perspective or gratitude or just air in their lungs, that they'd enjoy their experience a bit more.

[David Marchese]

What do you think about the idea of your parents making an advice podcast?

[Gideon Patinkin]

Well, I think that idea and experiment, and we're just in the process of making a pilot right now to see what that would be like is kind of like an outgrowth of the conversations and play we've been having creatively since COVID And these two never think they have much interesting to offer. They talk, they respond and communicate their life experience. And many people find it illuminating and hilarious and bizarre and they see their own parents in it. But they're the farthest thing from thinking that they'd have any advice to give. You know, one of the potential ideas for the name of it was don't listen to us. Just to clarify that these two don't have any expertise in anything.

[David Marchese]

Do you, too, have a hunch for why people respond so positively to you? What's your thinking?

[Catherine Grody]

I have a couple. First of all, all of this was an accident of the pandemic. People were terrified. They were stuck in their homes. And I think we were unknowingly an antidote to the youth bias in the culture, so that for people that couldn't get to their parents or couldn't get to their grandparents, and they were stuck and terrified, one, we seemed to offer some comfort or warmth. And I think it shows that people don't have, in general, the bias about elders or people with white hair that the culture would think that you do. You know, I've been furious about this for years, since I was like, 50. Do you know, because you don't.

[David Marchese]

Yes.

[Gideon Patinkin]

You used to. If somebody would offer her a seat on the subway, that was a big mistake. She would tear into them like a really crazy person. But now it's a little different.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I used to pity these people that would try to help her.

[Catherine Grody]

No. There was this one woman once, I remember I just come from working two hours in the gym. I get on, I have my New York Times in one hand. I'm holding onto the bar of the other, and I see this young woman get up, and I actually thought, oh, that's really nice that she notices some older person needing. Is that for me?

[David Marchese]

Right?

[Catherine Grody]

You're standing up for me. I just was at the gym for two hours. And she's like, I'm so sorry.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I'm so sorry, but that was maybe 15 years ago. And now you're like.

[Catherine Grody]

Now I'm like, excuse me. Excuse me.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I can't figure it out. I don't understand it, what the logic is. I don't understand the logic of why they would pay attention to us. I mean, there's a lot in this world I don't understand. And that is one of the things, because we're just ourselves.

[Catherine Grody]

But it brings it back to the mess that you talked about, David. I think that authenticity. We're not selling anything. I have no brand of makeup.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Obviously, it's not always true. Sometimes you're selling yourself.

[David Marchese]

Sometimes, yeah. What do you mean?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Sometimes I take a little kombucha, you know, like I'm drinking it or something, and then I can't say it right. Then he makes fun of me, and the next thing we know, we get boxes of it.

[Gideon Patinkin]

That's not what I mean. Those are happy little accidents where you get a free thing, but you're not sponsoring anything. I mean, that we started sharing things with no intention of self promotion or anything. And that's like a very pure thing. And the initial intention was to get more eyeballs on posts about the International Rescue Committee and support of refugees around the world, which they've always been attached to. But as time goes on and you build a following, then sometimes you do have a project that you're making a post about or sharing. I mean, Mom's got a play she wrote coming up, so we do. I just want to be truthful when you're like, we're not selling anything. But the purity of the initial thing can change.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. And it has changed. The reason that we're here today in truth is we're having a lawn sale and we're hoping that we'll give the address before it's over.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Wonderful items.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, we have wonderful items and we're hoping that they're going to come gently used some broken. But you know, you can get them fixed.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Lovely bench.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Lovely bench. The bench. Oh, don't talk to me about the bench. I'd give that one away. A bench that she insisted on buying that nobody sits on because it will cripple you instantaneously. It's really beautiful in the center of the. The room. The kids don't love sitting.

[Catherine Grody]

They love standing.

[Mandy Patinkin]

They never sit on it.

[David Marchese]

Stop her.

[Mandy Patinkin]

They don't.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Feel free to stop them. Plenty of time.

[Mandy Patinkin]

David, come over, set up a camera, you know, night vision, whatever you want. The children don't sit on the bench.

[Gideon Patinkin]

David, to get you through this family experience, we give you carte blanche to just stop anyone.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No one sits on the bench.

[David Marchese]

I have to say, even just in the. In the few minutes we've been talking, the way that you two instinctively held each other's hand, the way that you, Catherine, patted down Mandy's hair.

[Mandy Patinkin]

What's left?

[David Marchese]

What's left of Mandy's hair. It's just very sweet. And I'm curious, are there ways in which you see your dynamics as having changed over the years? Because the way I often think about it is early in a relationship is when the dynamics get established and. And then it seems to me that things solidify and everyone plays their roles and there's not a ton of deviation. But I've only been married 14 years, so.

[Catherine Grody]

Baby, beginning.

[David Marchese]

Can you tell me about how your sort of roles with each other have changed or not over time?

[Mandy Patinkin]

You go first.

[Catherine Grody]

I think there is so much sturm and drong in the beginning of relationship. Do you know? I mean, I'M six years older than him. I had had two serious relationships when I met him. I consider. I mean, the only thing I knew when I was 20, I was gonna have life in the theater. I was gonna be a mom. Different than my mom, but I was gonna be a mom. And I was never gonna have anything to do personally with an actor. Cause I thought one in the family was enough. I was right. You know, at our first date, very first date, he said, before we eat, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna marry you. Okay. I had not had coffee with this guy. I really thought he was insane. And I said, well, I don't believe in marriage, so that's not gonna happen. Six weeks later, after we've been dating, he said, let's just stop.

[David Marchese]

Stop dating.

[Catherine Grody]

Stop dating? Yeah.

[David Marchese]

So he went from I'm gonna marry.

[Catherine Grody]

You to let's stop dating.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Okay.

[Catherine Grody]

I think he wanted to still sleep together, but basically stop having a relationship. It was not my thing.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't know if that's true. I'd just like to have my lawyer here for the rest of this conversation. Go ahead.

[Catherine Grody]

We went to the reflecting pool at Lincoln Center. And, you know, I said, if you can let go of the future, and if I can let go of the past, and we can just be in this moment, let's take it day to day. And here we are, 45 years later. It's all that you don't know David. You know, am I gonna find my person then? The person you find is totally not who you expected to find. And it's all the unknowns that you know. Our rabbi at our wedding said marriage is a real leap of faith and just beginning careers and children and figuring out what our differences were. There was just so much high drama and joy and passion and love, but it was also exhausting.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, I knew. Go. I'm sorry. I thought you were done. Mandy, you asked about what's the trick? What's the secret? Why are we together?

[David Marchese]

Or how the roles that you play with each other either have or haven't changed over time?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Have or haven't changed? Yeah. Two things that I've noticed. One, there were times where things got pretty scary. Ugly frightening. Maybe we made a mistake. We were separated, I think, on two occasions. I think once for six or eight weeks, and then once for, like, two or three months. Right.

[David Marchese]

You refer to these periods as the troubles.

[Catherine Grody]

As our troubles.

[David Marchese]

Right.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I got pretty close, but we saw each other every day. We spoke every day.

[Catherine Grody]

We.

[Mandy Patinkin]

We met at popovers on Columbus every day Next to Barney Greengrass. Amsterdam on Amsterdam. Next to Barney Greengrass. Every day. Every day we were together, we couldn't be apart. And so on our 25th wedding anniversary, she gave me this wedding ring, this silver one. And it has two bumps on it to represent our two troubles. And from those troubled times, I feel during the previous times when somebody said this to me once, I thought it was. When you can't even watch the person you chose to live your life with eat, it so repulses you, you can't watch them eat. You don't wanna hear them speak. You're just looking for the exit constantly. I just learned Let it go and move on, as the song says. But something's happened.

[Gideon Patinkin]

He's talking about the song from Sunday in the park with George, not Frozen. The.

[Mandy Patinkin]

That's what I thought it was. Oh, Frozen. Frozen yogurt.

[Gideon Patinkin]

It's a different Frozen Let it go from the movie.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, it's called Move. But the key thing that I feel has changed is time and what it means. And Catherine would, like she said, be in a rage if you tried to give her a seat on the subway. And things that had to do with age or whatever. But she has stopped obsessing and screaming about aging and being terrified. What's changed is she's not worrying about time like she used to. She recognizes it is moving way too fast. And if we worry about it and complain about it, we're gonna miss a lot.

[David Marchese]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And that has changed exponentially. And I'm so grateful that we've accepted that we're older and there's such benefits to it. We're always saying to each other, if you could be whatever age, what age would you be? And I would say, well, I'd be 25, the age I was when I met you. Only if I can know what I know now. You take away what I know now, all bets are off. And I.

[David Marchese]

Talk to me. Well, you're looking skeptical.

[Catherine Grody]

No, I just. I mean, it's completely different response. I'm just listening to this, seeing what parts of it I identify with or not. I mean, the question was, what has changed over the years, David? And first of all, it's all the things you don't know. It's, are you gonna be able to have children? Are you gonna be a good parent? Are you gonna still be able to work? Are we gonna be able to make a living? Do you know? And it's also, I think, at the beginning of the relationship, you make a lot of assumptions about commonalities. Cause there were certain things that drew you together and you make big assumptions about what those things are. And then when you commit to each other you discover, oh, I'm a social person. He is not a social person. Do you know I love people. He is more.

[Gideon Patinkin]

He likes some people.

[Catherine Grody]

He likes some people. I was gonna say selective.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Okay, one, you know, Maureen's nice.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Rosemary Ellen.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Rosemary Ellen.

[David Marchese]

Bills in the abstract.

[Mandy Patinkin]

They all got in the article. Look at that.

[Catherine Grody]

Really. You know, so I think the.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

[Catherine Grody]

The inherent tension of not knowing all of those things brings out the best and worst in you. You know, I mean it was very funny recently we were talking about when the kids were little and I mentioned that when he was four days old and our oldest son was four, Mandy came to Central Park. We had a birthday party for the four year old and then kissed us goodbye and went to Europe for several months to do Princess Bride. So we were talking about. And I was alone with the four day. And Mandy went. I would never have done that. That didn't happen. I said, honey, who you are now wouldn't have done it. But who you were then. Yes, yes, you did that. No, Kathy, that's not. And I had to go back and. Although.

[David Marchese]

Yeah, that could be fact checked pretty easily.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But you got hanging quickly with this.

[Catherine Grody]

I came when he was three months old, honey. So you didn't see him for three months. And when we arrived.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I'm still sore about it.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah, really.

[David Marchese]

But get it. Have you seen a change in your parents relationship?

[Gideon Patinkin]

Yeah, totally. I mean in their troubled times. There was a period when they split up and I was teenager, I think 16. Yeah. That I was sort of at a certain point happy for them. I was like, these are two people who are so enmeshed and codependent like might be having an experience in their adulthood where they could get to discover who they are without the other. And that could be really great for both of them in different ways. And then I saw two people who were trying to separate completely incapable of being away from the other. And I remember thinking as they were getting back together, like, oh, I just kind of gotten used to the idea of them being part. I was like kind of excited for how they'd develop in ways that maybe they couldn't while stuck together. But that was a long time ago.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And we haven't developed at all.

[Gideon Patinkin]

That was 20 years ago. And now I've gotten to see two meshiguna people, you know, stick it out, um, for better and worse and you know That's a beautiful thing.

[David Marchese]

Katherine, you were gonna.

[Catherine Grody]

That's what I was gonna say. One of the bigger things is, I think, in the initial coming together of a relationship, you assume you're one person, which is a big error. You know, I never understood that, that settling down thing. You know, I thought of dust mites. When you shake a blanket, it's like, who he is, who I am, and who we are as a couple. And I think it takes a. A long time to figure out that you have permission to be your totally different selves and who you are as a couple. And so I would always. You know, I understand. I would try and fix what ailed him for years, which just usually had the opposite effect of making things worse. And I would also try and talk him into, you know, things that I wanted him to be at. And now.

[Gideon Patinkin]

So you're doing that less, and I.

[Catherine Grody]

Do it a lot less. I just say whatever you need to do. And if he has permission to do whatever he needs to do, he most often shows up than not. So it is not being threatened by the fact that you're two really different people that have chosen to share life and make a life and make family together. But there's.

[David Marchese]

Amanda, you have something to add?

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Two things. I want to bring me back to the word fix, but also I want to talk about your earlier question. Being together, I wish for everyone to have a companion to go through life with, to do nothing with, to have in the other room, to just think about calling. You don't have to be married. I don't care what the circumstances are. But someone, when you meet that someone, if you're lucky, which many people are, and you feel that something that you cannot put into words, that is what you should hope and pray for and be available to the possibility of that taking place in your existence. And the thank God part of that is when the shit hits the fan. And in every relationship, if it's worth its salt, it will hit the fan. You will reflect on that moment in the beginning of hello. Where you couldn't put into words what you felt about that person. And that is the gold. The other word you hit on that I heard, I think Kathryn said it was fix.

[David Marchese]

Fix.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, the word fixed. And my teacher for the past, since about 2005 or 6, started teaching me the Buddhist idea of stay in the moment and don't be in the past or the future and don't try to fix what's wrong. You know, you fix things in every imaginable way. You drink it you drink yourself, you eat yourself, you divorce, you run away. Fix, fix, fix. As opposed to staying in that discomfort. One of my favorite things was with little babies, when they fall down, you say, let me kiss it and make it go away. Don't make it go away. Kiss it if you want to, but it doesn't have to go away. It hurts. It's okay. And I just think the whole world would be better if we learned to stay with our discomfort, learn to live with it. Stop running away, stop trying to fix everything. And I could go on, but that's.

[David Marchese]

You know, you made me emotional.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I somehow wanted to just. Cause that's the teaching of my life. If I was on my deathbed and you said anything lasting other than love to the kids and grandkids and Catherine, I would try to communicate this idea of just be in this moment.

[David Marchese]

Oh, Katherine, go ahead.

[Catherine Grody]

You know, I can sum up when a huge difference just occurs to me.

[David Marchese]

Yes, go for it, Mandy. And then I have. Then I. Do you have another question?

[Catherine Grody]

No, it's just very funny. I used to want to share my feelings about politics, about a book I read about an article about a person, and it would drive him crazy, and he would say, I just want you to be a body in the other room. And I would be furious. A body in the other room? Get one of those dolls they have.

[Mandy Patinkin]

In which we looked into.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah. And now it's just so funny. I found that so insulting in the beginning of our relationship.

[David Marchese]

It sounds dehumanizing.

[Catherine Grody]

Just dehumanizing and not seeing me and my needs and screw you. Now it's. I'm really. I know what that means. The comfort of just having somebody you know really well, there's company there. And we're sharing the same space, but very comfortably being each other's body in the other room and knowing we're there.

[David Marchese]

This is sort of a difficult question, but, you know. So all three of you are. I was about to say, obviously, but I don't want to assume anything, but you're Jewish.

[Catherine Grody]

Yes.

[David Marchese]

And you are also politically active in your way, including on social media. And you talk about your hope for a ceasefire in Gaza and the tragedy of that situation. And then that's on one side. And then by nature, of being Jewish at this moment in history, antisemitism is obviously heightened right now. It can be a conflicting set of feelings for Jewish people. I'm Jewish also, and I just wonder, are you thinking or feeling any differently about what it means for you to be Jewish in this moment?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes, I Am I'll let them go first because I don't want to take up too much space.

[Catherine Grody]

I've always loved the concept tikin olam to heal the world. If you save one life, you save the world. And so my, I hate the way some people are using antisemitism as a claim for anybody that is critical about a certain policy. You know, as far as I am concerned, compassion for every person in Gaza is very Jewish. And the fact that I abhor the policies of the leader of that country does not mean I'm a self hating Jew or I'm anti Semitic.

[David Marchese]

You mean Netanyahu, when you say the leader of that Benjamin Netanyahu?

[Catherine Grody]

Yes, yes. I feel this is the behavior, the politics of what he's doing is the worst thing for Jewish people. It's like lighting a candle for anybody that has any anti Semitic feelings. It's creating a generation of wounded and hurt kids who will understandably be very angry. So that is how I feel. And I feel, I really feel deeply troubled and horrified by what is happening in my name because it is the opposite. You know, it's that old hurt people, hurt people thing. I see people acting the way they supposedly created a place out of the horror of the hatred. So I am, I am very proud of every Jewish person that stands up for the humanity of people in the Middle East.

[Mandy Patinkin]

May I? Do you want to speak first, please. So I'm sitting here praying as I'm listening to Catherine. I'm asking Hashem who I like to refer to and ask for his strength for me to be of service to your question. I'm going to say several things and if I go all over the place for a minute, I'll try to make sense.

[Catherine Grody]

Okay.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I want to take you back for a moment. I came back from Europe after working. We had our firstborn son, Isaac Grody, Hyphen Patinkin. And he was about this big on my arm. He came to about here. He would suck on my bicep and give me a hickey. And I was asked to sing the Israeli national anthem at One Dog Hammersholt Square in front of the UN for a Soviet jewelry rally, I believe. I was on the podium with my baby son. Mario Cuomo was on my right. Ed Koch was sitting behind us. And a stranger was next to me. This stranger next to me, I didn't know who he was, but he had a very distasteful vibe. And I took my baby son and I moved him from my left arm between the stranger and me to my Right arm. So my baby would be between Mario Cuomo and me, not between this man. This man got up to speak. And I remembered that he was introduced as the ambassador from Israel to the United Nations. And I remember sitting there because I'd often hear my parents say this phrase on the south side of Chicago, in the Jewish community, that's good for the Jews or that's bad for the Jews. And in my mind, out loud, I heard that's the definition of what's bad for the Jews. And I didn't know this man. I knew nothing about him. I just knew he was a threat to my child. And later I learned that that man was named Benjamin Netanyahu. And I loved that. I had no idea who he was or what his position meant.

[Gideon Patinkin]

You felt the vibes.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I felt it. Then I don't remember exactly when. I think what age. It was a while ago, 10, 15 years ago, I was in Philadelphia getting ready to do a concert with my dear friend Patti LuPone. And then I go up to the hotel room. Catherine was in the hotel room and the movie the Princess Bride was on. She was watching it. And just as I walked in the room is that final scene in the movie where Inigo is sitting by the window with a man in black. And the man in black asks Inigo, would he like to be the next Red Pirate Robertson. And the Inigo Montoya actor, who was me, said these words, which I did not really know what they meant, that William Goldman wrote, which I think are the singular greatest words I've ever read. And those words are, were, and always will be. You know, I have been in the revenge business so long now that it's over, I do not know what to do with the rest of my life. And I ask Jews all over the world to consider what this man, Benjamin Netanyahu and his right wing government is doing to the Jewish people all over the world. They are endangering not only the State of Israel, which I care deeply about and want to exist, but they are endangering the Jewish population all over the world. He is the most dangerous thing, not just since October 7, it has been a deeply troubled situation.

[Gideon Patinkin]

And endangering the Jews by endangering those in Gaza.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And to watch what is happening for the Jewish people to allow this to happen to children and civilians of all ages in Gaza is unconscionable and unthinkable. And I ask you Jews everywhere, all over the world to spend some time alone and think, is this acceptable and sustainable? How could it be done to you and your ancestors, and you turn around and you do it to someone else.

[David Marchese]

I appreciate all of your honesty and. Sorry, I think I'm going to take a sip of water.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Just give a moment.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah.

[David Marchese]

And then whether Jewish, not Jewish, whatever you believe politically or about the world, it does feel like we're living at a moment that's sort of pervasive with uncertainty and despair. But I think it's hugely important, just as a person, as best you can, to not succumb to despair. And I want to know where and how you find joy in the world.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Can I chime in?

[Catherine Grody]

Yes.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I think one little place I find joy in the world. And that I remind my parents often is just, you know, being very proud of them when they speak up.

[David Marchese]

For.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Things they believe in. And it always feels good to remind them that I'm, you know, always proudest of them when they speak for people who have less power and are being harmed.

[David Marchese]

And.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Catherine, do you have more? No, that's just our grandchildren.

[David Marchese]

Yeah, it's on the floor. Tell me about your grandchildren.

[Catherine Grody]

It's such a strange thing. I still can't get over that I'm old enough to be a grandmother. I mean, my parents didn't get that gift, and so I am very grateful for it. And the sense of wonder. My grandson, my granddaughter, is nine months old, but she's just simply. She sees you and she goes. And I remember being out on a deck when a sudden downpour happened. I mean, just, you know, one of those things, like God dumped water, big water. And our grandson was 18 months old, and he was there. And his response, David, was just. He thought it was so extraordinary that this thing was happening. And it was the same thing. I remember walking with him in the fall and he said, look, Grangey, the leaves are yellow. And I remember thinking, yeah, it's gonna be one of those yellow falls. Where's the red? And I stopped myself and went, jesus, what is with me?

[Gideon Patinkin]

That is your lesson.

[Catherine Grody]

That is my lesson. This is it.

[Gideon Patinkin]

To notice the yellow leaves.

[Catherine Grody]

To notice the yellow leaves and to suck in and drink that wonder and joy. And that is my antidote to grief.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I think you guys find joy still in, you know, the creative practice. I mean, dad with your, you know, singing, and Mom, I mean, we had an incredible time making this TV pilot together and writing this show, which came out of their incredibly generous willingness to let me and my dear friend and collaborator, Ewan Wright take their most vulnerable lived experiences and write stories with them and turn them around and say, look, these things that felt painful or embarrassing or useless or a waste of your time or the family's time can actually be like relatable, hilarious connective tissue for other people.

[David Marchese]

And the show is essentially. I saw the pilot. It's essentially a fictionalized version of your relationship.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes.

[David Marchese]

There's a scene in the pilot where you two, or your characters, you and your characters, hard to take responsibility for. You have this big argument. And you, Catherine, have this line that you say to Mandy where, you know, it's not always easy because you take up all the space.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Your feelings are so big.

[David Marchese]

Your feelings are so big, yours have to shrink. You know, assuming that you figured out how to work through that problem or manage it. How did you do that?

[Catherine Grody]

I think it was a weird trick. It was very easy to avoid my own mishigrass because his was so big. And, you know, I once said publicly I was supposed to marry a rock so I could be the lunatic I am, and instead I married a lunatic, so I have to pretend to be a rock.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Don't forget to say, I'm not always.

[Catherine Grody]

And he's not always a lunatic at all. And, in fact, this came out very nice. I have my own lunaticness. And I think that I realized at a certain point that I could avoid dealing and improving on my issues. I could avoid it because I was so busy taking care of people. Yes.

[Gideon Patinkin]

And you do that with your children, too.

[Catherine Grody]

And I do that with my children.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I've said to you, I said, mom, you know, I really also want to be good friends with you, but that involves being able to communicate things that aren't positive in my life. And it's very difficult to do that with you when you're so ravenous to take your children's problems or anybody else's problems and then blow them up and make them a bigger thing and repeat them to your friends and live in them so that you can avoid your own life. And I think that's something.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Catherine Grody]

So that's an improvement, right?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, sort of.

[Gideon Patinkin]

We're getting there.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah.

[David Marchese]

I actually had emailed Gideon maybe last week or something and asked him, because he obviously knows you a lot better than I do. He knows as well, you know, are there any things that might be interesting to ask your parents that they haven't been asked before? And he sent me a long. Pretty long list. It was a long list, comprehensive.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You feel free to publish it as a book.

[David Marchese]

And one of the things that he brought up was that, you know, he's noticed that you, Catherine, seem to have developed an interest in Sort of expanding the mind a little bit. You know, sort of. He said that you've gotten into astrology or learning about string theory. I think the way you put it was, you know, that you, Catherine, are toying with the idea of taking psychedelic mushrooms. And I want to know, sort of, do you think about the balance between pushing yourself intellectually and emotionally as you get older versus a completely understandable comfort with, you know, just being who you are and kind of settling down, not in a negative way.

[Catherine Grody]

You know, there's an aspect of this is who I am. All those questions about will I find love? Will I be a mother? Will I have a career? Will those have all been settled? But I don't feel who I am sitting here right now as who I want to be in 10 years or 20 years. I cannot. I'm so drawn to physics, the concept of one thing being in two places at one time. There was this article in the Atlantic, June of 23, called something about, we're all part of the cosmos, but you still have to buy groceries. I cannot tell you, David. My brain is not able to really grok those concepts. But I am so drawn to the description that we're all part of a cosmic hum. That energy really doesn't ever die. I read this article, and I said to my director, we were doing a workshop. I have to put this in tonight. This is the thing about time. It's about time we don't ever really die. Ovid was right. Whitman, they're all right. It just transforms. And she's just going, what? What are you talking about? And I did try and put it in that night, and it was a complete disaster. But I want not to be afraid to learn new things or change my mind about things. You know, I am very drawn to the idea of microdosing. You know, you're drawn to the idea.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Of all kinds of dosing. You just haven't crossed over yet.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah, right.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I've learned something that works every time, which is why.

[Catherine Grody]

Oh, no, honey, it's not gonna work now.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It will work. No, it won't. Not if I tell you I adore you.

[David Marchese]

Wait. Tell me.

[Mandy Patinkin]

She laughs whenever I say I adore her. She can't stop laughing when I say.

[David Marchese]

I were gonna say something else a day.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, I want to just tell her, I adore you. Anytime I say I adore you, she starts laughing.

[Catherine Grody]

It's just a very funny thing.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But why do you think that is?

[Catherine Grody]

Because, honey, it is not. The word does not accurately describe your feelings toward me on a 24 hour basis.

[David Marchese]

But Mandy, how do you think about at your age, balancing still wanting to grow and learn new things and change versus this? Is it an understandable inclination, maybe, to just rest in who you are?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Resting in who I am will bore the shit out of me and dissatisfy me. I have so much growth to do. I came to puberty very late. Mark Freifeld in the sixth or seventh grade said, what's the matter? Thinking you don't have any pubic hair yet? Well, I'm just trying to.

[David Marchese]

Speaking metaphorically at first. No, no, you meant that literally.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm back at Mark Freifeld forever because I was late to everything and I'm late to being a human being and growing up and changing. I struggle continuously with panic attacks, with anxiety, with trying to live that lesson of being in the moment and not going back and not going forward, but being right here. And I. I want to get better at it before it's over.

[Gideon Patinkin]

And you've gotten so much better at it. You have that shit under control in a way that you can't see or understand because you live with that. But those around you see a person who has learned that part of themselves and learned to manage it and learn to deal with it beautifully.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you. But when. Oh, gosh, where was I going? Where was I going? Oh, but Catherine, Catherine sometimes, and she's gotten so much better at it since all the changes have gone on in the world. She'll go to sleep reading every difficult article, you know, dark stuff, every podcast, and then she goes to sleep crying, wakes up crying, and she wakes up with me. So I'm the first one who hears the tears and needs to be held and everything. And we're begging her as a family, please stop reading everything, Please stop listening to the podcast. Please put other things in your way. It's an addiction that she works very hard at trying to break.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I mean, she's not alone.

[Mandy Patinkin]

She's not alone. But there are moments that are going on in this world, in this life, at this moment, globally, home, everywhere, in our personal lives, in every aspect. That put me in the reverse gravity chair the other day. And I'm upside down with my head back and I can't. And I'm weeping for maybe 3, 35, 45 minutes. And Catherine and I couldn't control it. I just couldn't hold. I just couldn't hold on anymore. But she just sat next to me, didn't say a word, and just held my hand and I started to get it together. And then it would come again, the floods would come again. And she just held my hand till we were done. And then we went to the kitchen, I think, and we had more of her number one dish, which was rice and vegetables that you have to put on so much dish and special sauce that Gideon brings to make it taste like something. But. But we made it through it, and. And I believe. I believe there's so much good ahead. Go ahead, ask the next question.

[David Marchese]

You know, you. You pretty clearly let it all hang out and do it in public. Is there anything that you think that you would like people to know about the Patinkin Grody family that maybe they don't already?

[Mandy Patinkin]

We've given up on boundaries.

[Gideon Patinkin]

No, we'd like to take things back. Yeah, we'd like to take too much.

[Catherine Grody]

They do. Yeah. I believe in boundaries, actually, because I do, too. I was kidding, but it's very. We just stretch them.

[David Marchese]

After the break, I get more quality time with the Grody Patinket family.

[Catherine Grody]

Emma.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Question was. For me to answer the question. He was talking to Giddy.

[David Marchese]

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[Mandy Patinkin]

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[David Marchese]

Shoreline, or walking the beach, each moment invites reflection.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Fort Myers is a place to experience.

[David Marchese]

Fully at a pace that just feels right.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Discover a slower, more intentional way of living@visitfort Myers.com.

[David Marchese]

You guys can hear me?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Okay.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes.

[David Marchese]

All right. Mandy and Catherine, where are you?

[Catherine Grody]

We are in upstate New York at the place we've had since our oldest son was 2. And we came very, very periodically because of our unpredictable schedules. And then in the pandemic, this is where we came to wade that out. I am a deeply urban person, so I'm still adjusting.

[David Marchese]

Gideon, where are you? Are you at home?

[Gideon Patinkin]

No, I'm in a big artist's collective studio in Jersey City.

[Catherine Grody]

What are you doing there, Gideon?

[Gideon Patinkin]

I am doing a variety of things.

[David Marchese]

That is a child's answer to a parent if I ever heard one.

[Mandy Patinkin]

There you go. Always undercover.

[David Marchese]

When we spoke last time, I had asked if there are things that are kind of off limits for the public, and you said there are boundaries. So without being specific, where are your boundaries for what you'll share with the public?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Go ahead.

[Catherine Grody]

Go ahead, kid.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Well, well, I. Yeah, yeah, It's a good question. I. I find that you often put up a boundary for yourself, and as soon as you claim there's something or a Space you don't want talk about. You might enter into that space, but it's about knowing that you can feel you don't have to talk about anything that allows you to talk about more than you'd expect.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Would you agree? No. No. No. Photographs and. Or videos of our grandchildren is certainly one. Well, sometimes we say name. I think we have, and. But no videos. That's one thing. And. And just an endless list of all the things that are deeply personal and deeply private in both our personal lives, our family lives, with our children, our lives individually, professional things. The list is things that are just too private. It seems like we'll talk about anything, but we're very selective. And. And the beauty which we do not have the luxury of while we talk to you is when we do social media or anything. Social media, particularly. Gideon is also the editor, not just the interviewer. And that gives a great sense of safety.

[Catherine Grody]

You know, it's respecting the privacy. We've been very open about what we call our troubles, our true separations, you know, years ago, but I'm not going into the specifics of that. The only people that need to know about is me and him and, you know, what we want to share with our kids. So that's an area. You know, I once did a play years ago at the public called falling apart together because I was frustrated with people being together for two years, separating, have another marriage for two years, separating. And I wanted to show how a family could go through wonderful things, horrible things, and then infold all of that in their story. And I was insensitive. I used my kids real names because I was advised to. I thought they were years away from how I was portraying them. And I really learned a lesson, David, about respecting my sense of my privacy, about my life is one thing, but I really have to respect what they feel comfortable sharing and not sharing.

[David Marchese]

Katherine, you did talk about this idea of. I think the way you put it was lunatics and rocks and how, you know, you're maybe more naturally a lunatic when you kind of had to be a rock.

[Catherine Grody]

Yeah.

[David Marchese]

How did you learn to be a rock?

[Catherine Grody]

God, David, you ask really good questions. I think I love this guy a lot. And I loved. I really needed my family to be an intact family because my parents died when I was 25. And I think I didn't realize how much that impacted me in terms of family separation was kind of death, you know. And I honestly think even though I have lunatic qualities, I am also, even though I find it boring, I'm kind of a Rock, you know, I kind of naturally am a rock.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You're a pretty rock.

[Catherine Grody]

Thank you, hon.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I mean, therapy helps.

[Catherine Grody]

Oh, yeah, therapy helps. And having to be where your kids need you to be. You know, they gave a structure that was sort of a rock like place too.

[David Marchese]

Gideon, from our brief time together, you sure seem like a rock. Thank you. Do you have any lunatic in you?

[Gideon Patinkin]

My. He was talking to me.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh.

[Catherine Grody]

You know, that's actually true. Gideon and Gideon, our sons, are more rocks than either of us could ever be.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Let Gideon answer the question. Okay, he was talking again.

[Gideon Patinkin]

He's asking, do I have any lunatic in me? I mean, you know, my family would probably have a different response to this question, as would my partner, but.

[Catherine Grody]

I.

[Gideon Patinkin]

Think I definitely get very, like, hot and tense inside. I think that's in part a result of having, like, very emotional parents and maybe countering that. So I think most of my lunatic is tight and contained within me. Maybe that's my. The toxic masculinity influence.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Who knows?

[David Marchese]

Mandy, you know, I read about this incredibly intense formative experience you had in your family as a young man where your father was ill with cancer. And then for some reasons that your family decided not to tell your father that it was cancer or that it was terminal. And you sort of all engaged in this deception in the hopes of not crushing his spirit. And you found that experience so.

[Mandy Patinkin]

That.

[David Marchese]

As a result, you had a real hunger and yearning for the truth. You only wanted honesty. I would be very surprised if your own family dynamic, the four of you, including your other son, involved something quite as intense as that. But do you think there is sort of a Rosetta Stone incident for the.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Family or can you define what a Rosetta Stone incident is?

[David Marchese]

Something that explains the dynamics of the family?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. Well, I can only explain it through the window of my existence. You are correct. It was one of, if not the singular most formative event that took place in my younger years. That the truth means everything to me, almost to a fault, because I feel that I don't deserve to live if I do a take while I'm making a movie with Elmo and my concentration failed while I was talking to Elmo and I'm back in my trailer literally thinking about calling my therapist because I failed Elmo. And that's to the degree of what I'm dealing with here. And when I didn't tell my father the truth that he had cancer because my mother and his two elder sisters and the doctor and everybody who was the grown up to 18 year old Mandy said You mustn't tell Daddy because he had an earlier accident where he broke his neck and it was very traumatic for him when he was, like, 17. And if you tell him he has cancer, he'll probably take his life. So I put myself in the position to do what the grownup said. And I never got to sit with my father to tell him the truth of his condition. And when we lied to him and told him he had hepatitis, my father was not a fucking idiot. He knew he didn't have hepatitis in five seconds. And we never got that moment. And you don't get it back. And I'll never forgive myself for it. And the way I deal with it is I try to be truthful to you, to my wife, to my son, to my audience, and to the world. And it is. It is not hard. It is not hard to be truthful.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I never heard that about Grandpa. I never heard that. You guys told me I had hepatitis. I didn't know that was part of.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Us, but I told you a million times. But maybe you didn't. Maybe I didn't. I don't. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. I wish to God I could answer any of your questions without getting so intense I don't know how to do it. I wish I could.

[David Marchese]

Gideon, maybe you could help me bring this question home.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Let me get out the fire extinguisher.

[Gideon Patinkin]

I mean, the truth, you know, is there? Is there?

[Catherine Grody]

No.

[David Marchese]

Is there? Do you just. In your own memory, is there a moment that you think kind of encapsulates what your family is about?

[Gideon Patinkin]

No, I think we're just as messy and complex and contradictory as, like any other family that's trying to get along, trying to understand ourselves and each other, and kind of the pathway, I think, towards having more peace and less misunderstanding is like trying to talk to each other about our shit when we have problems with each other. I don't think there's a singular moment. I don't think there's a singular saying. I think it's just a big, swirling, beautiful mess.

[David Marchese]

I want to thank all three of you for letting me and our audience sit with you and your various feelings of discomfort and comfort and being a family. So thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

When's the next session, David?

[David Marchese]

Well, then I start charging. Then I start charging. That's the grody patingit family. Catherine's one woman show, the Unexpected Third will be at the People's Light Theater in Malvern, Pennsylvania, from September 17th to October 19th. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sonia Herrero, original music by Diane Wong and Marian Lozano, photography by Devon Yelkins. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our Executive Producer is Allison Benedikt. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renon Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Matty Masciello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com theinterview and you can email us anytime@the interviewytimes.com Also, we have a new YouTube channel where you can watch this interview and many others. [e-mail] BeTheInterview podcast next week, Lulu talks to actor Sandra oh live on stage at the Tribeca Festival about her life and career, including her 10 seasons on Grey's Anatomy.

[Catherine Grody]

I wanted to leave well, and I.

[David Marchese]

Think that for me, one of the.

[Catherine Grody]

Proudest things that I have in my life is how I left the show.

[David Marchese]

I'm David Marchese and this is the interview for the New York Times.

[Mandy Patinkin]

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[Catherine Grody]

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