Lulu Garcia Navarro (3:14)

You do get me sick, I'll be sure to mention it.

Mark Rutte (3:16)

You will let me know? Yeah.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (3:19)

Okay, so we'll get started now.

Mark Rutte (3:22)

Great.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (3:24)

Secretary General, thank you so much for joining the interview. I really appreciate your time, really appreciate being here.

Mark Rutte (3:29)

Thank you all for the invitation.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (3:30)

I'm going to start with a big but basic question, and I want it to be in the form of an elevator pitch, if you will. Why should NATO matter to Americans now? What do Americans get out of this treaty today?

Mark Rutte (3:43)

It should matter. And if I was in an elevator, I would say if you want to defend the US you have to make sure that three things are secure. You need a secure Arctic because it is opening up and the Chinese and the Russians are sailing there. You need to secure Atlantic because it is your sea, it is crucial. And you need to secure Europe because Russia is here and Russia is reconstituting itself at an incredible pace. And not to attack Norway, but to attack, ultimately the U.S. so if the Arctic, if the Atlantic Ocean, if Europe is not secure, US has a big problem.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (4:23)

I'm assuming that's how you sold it to President Trump, who has conspicuously not been a very big fan of NATO and essentially views European, as he has mentioned in the past, as a bunch of freeloaders. He sees it as European nations basically funding their welfare states, giving free health care, giving pensions at the expense of American defense. You think that view is fair?

Mark Rutte (4:49)

The second half of the view is fair, but the first half I would not buy into, because I think that, and I'm pretty much confident of the fact that the American President Trump very much realizes his whole team, based on my conversations when I was in Washington in March, when I was in April, when I had conversations last week in the Hague, that for the US to stay strong and safe, there is this embeddedness with European security and of course, working together to keep the inner Pacific safe. But I do agree with the second half because there is this enormous irritant since Eisenhower with American presidents, and I think they're completely right that the Europeans were not paying enough and that where you are paying on average 3 point of your GDP on defence, that the Europeans were, well, struggling to get to 2%. So there he has a big point. And luckily last week in De Hague, we solved that.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (5:44)

Before we get into that substance, I'd like to talk a little bit about the style, because your interactions with President Trump in the aftermath of that meeting have been called, and I'm quoting here, fawning an orchestrated grovel. I saw someone refer to NATO now as the North Atlantic Trump Organization. It's been a week of a lot of criticism. How do you see it?

Mark Rutte (6:10)

Well, let's face what is happening. There were seven or eight countries in Europe, not a 2%. This was the. So now it's 5%, a new benchmark. Do we really think that we would have been able last week in the Hague to agree to that 5% if Trump would not have been reelected as President of the United States? So I think when somebody deserves praise, that praise should be given. And President Trump deserves all the praise, because without his leadership, without him being reelected President of the United States, the 2% this year and the 5% in 2035, we would never, ever, ever have been able to achieve agreements on this.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (6:48)

I want to get to what exactly these numbers are and what they mean, but there are these two camps after this summit. You know, one said that you did what you did to sort of pacify President Trump's ego and have a successful summit, which you did. And the other says that while our president likes flattery, he ultimately sees it as weakness, and it only appeases him for so long. I'm sure you've seen all this commentary afterwards.

Mark Rutte (7:13)

I was 14 years Prime Minister of the Netherlands, so I know about criticism, but I don't care. In the end, I need to do my job. I have to keep the whole of NATO together. And the biggest ally is the United States. That biggest ally has paid since Eisenhower more than the Europeans. And now, for the first time in 65 years, we will equalize between what the US is paying and what the Europeans are paying. And without Trump, that would not have happened.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (7:35)

Did you mind the text message that you sent him being made public by him?

Mark Rutte (7:39)

Not at all. Because what was in the text message is exactly as I see it, one, that he did an excellent job on Iran with the bombing of the nuclear facility. And as I said in that text message, you are now flying into another big success, which is a NATO summit which will commit to 5% defense spending. And this is transformational.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (8:01)

All right. We are meeting after this NATO summit, and the big success is that the member nations, except for Spain, agreed to increase their defense spending to 5% of their GDP by 2035. Can you briefly talk me through why 5% is the right number?

Mark Rutte (8:19)

Yeah. And by the way, all 32 agreed. There's one issue with Spain, and that Spain is saying, okay, we agree, but we think we can reach all those capabilities with a lower investment. That is absolutely impossible. So history will prove them wrong. But that's an agreement to disagree. But then to your question, we have an enormous geopolitical challenge on our hands and that is first of all, Russia, which is reconstituting itself at a pace and a speed which is unparalleled in recent history. They are now producing three times as much ammunition in three months as the whole of NATO is doing in a year. And don't forget Russia is only the size of the economy, of taxes, 2 trillion, and the whole of NATO is 50 trillion. So this is unsustainable. But the Russians are working together with the North Koreans, with the Chinese and Iranians, the mullahs in Ukraine, in fighting this war, unprovoked war of aggression against Ukraine. So here, the Indo Pacific, your Atlantic are getting more and more interconnected. We know that China has its eye on Taiwan. Given this whole geopolitical setup, there is no way and we can defend ourselves if we would stick to this old 2%. So when it comes to core defence spending, we have to move up to 3.5%. And then of course there is all the defence related spending because a bridge needs to hold a tank if it crosses the bridge. We need to develop the defense industrial base, we need to spend money on cyber, on hybrids, we need to prepare our societies at large. So beyond the military, and that's the extra 1.5% leading into the 5%. So yes, this is an enormous amount of spending, but if we don't, we have to learn Russian. That's the short summary.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (10:00)

I'm sure you saw comments by Russia's Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, that this new target will cause the end of NATO because it will basically bankrupt NATO members. Essentially, he's saying NATO is involved in a costly arms race.

Mark Rutte (10:15)

You know, I know Sergey Lavrov very well. He has been foreign minister, I think, since the birth of Jesus Christ, of Russia, and I've never taken him seriously. So when you really talk about fake news, listen to Sergeant Lavrov.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (10:28)

So you're not worried about an arms race then between Europe and Russia?

Mark Rutte (10:31)

No, not at all. We have to make sure that the deterrence is there. And the fact that Lavrov makes that comment, again, I would not take too much interest in all his comments, but it is clearly evidence that the deterrence is working. And that is crucial because Russia is on a war economy, is on a war Footing in every sense, the size of the military, what they are investing in their tanks, in their air defense systems, in their artillery, in their ammunition. It is amazing.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (10:58)

German Chancellor Frederick Merz said, money alone won't solve our problems. So we've talked about the spending. What are the problems that you see with actually making that spending effective?

Mark Rutte (11:13)

He is totally right, because the deterrence is, yes, the spending, but the deterrence is only real if we have the people and the industrial output to make sure that the people can make use of the weaponry. We need to really defend ourselves. So these are the two issues we really have to work on. To get the right number of people in the military is something international level and countries can take decisions. Yes, conscription, no conscription, spending more on salaries for your military units.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (11:43)

Do you think that Europe's going to have to do conscription?

Mark Rutte (11:45)

No, no, that's up to the individual countries to decide. Some countries will do. Finland already has conscription, others will not do it. But it will mean in generally paying good salaries for our men and women in uniform. What I'm particularly worried about is the defence industrial output. And this is a problem across the alliance because we simply lack the defence industrial base to produce the weapons we need to produce to make sure that we can deter the Russians or the North Koreans or whoever to attack us. And this is we are working on very quickly now and every day. I was this morning in Toulouse visiting Airbus. They want to put.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (12:28)

It's the airplane maker in France.

Mark Rutte (12:29)

Of course it's the airplane maker in France. It is partly French, but also British, Spanish and German owned. And they are putting in the extra production lines, the extra shifts to make sure that they can deliver at scale, not increasing the price, but making sure that the scale of the production is there, that they can deliver what the rest of the alliance needs.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (12:49)

Which is what exactly?

Mark Rutte (12:50)

It's in their case, airplanes, it is air transport, it is helicopters, it is drones. But we need everything. Take for example the Patriot anti missile systems the US is producing at this moment. It takes you sometimes 10 years before a new Patriot system will be delivered. And the joke then is, will it be delivered in the morning or the afternoon? Why does it matter? Yeah, in the afternoon the F35 will arrive. So when it comes to spending, the US is in good shape and the Europeans and the Canadians have to step up when it comes to the defence industrial production. We are all in the same boat. The capacity and capability will be key to keep our deterrence at the level it has to be. So Friedrich Merz, to your question was Totally right.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (13:33)

Are you worried that perhaps European nations at this point are investing in the war that's taking place now and not the war that will come in the future? I mean, we've seen already in Ukraine the use of drones, the use of a lot of more nimble technology that is not based around, you know, heavy weapons, et cetera.

Mark Rutte (13:53)

I'm not worried about this. But you're totally right that the war of the past is not a war we will fight against the Russians or whoever will attack us in the future. And that is why this war of aggression against Ukraine is also teaching us something. Exactly. As you said, it is about drone technology. It is applying artificial intelligence. There are so many developments now which we have to figure in the way we think about warfare and developing our defense industrial base. We have now this joint center in Poland, jtech, where we capture all the lessons from the battlefield in Ukraine. And what we learned from this is a few things. One, ammunition is still the base for everything. This has not changed over the last 500 years. If you do not have enough 155ammunition, we cannot fight the 152ammunition from the Russians. So this has to be there. And we are totally lacking at this moment the production capacity. The UK is now building six new ammunition factories. I was happy to hear a couple of weeks ago that they will do this. Then of course you have the big ticket Items still, the F35s and the European equivalents, the tanks, etc. And there is a huge opportunity here for our innovative industries. And there is a huge opportunity here for our small and medium sized enterprises. And that is why I really believe that with this extra defence spent, we also will see a defence dividend coming to our economies from Spain, the Netherlands, France, the US all over NATO territory.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (15:21)

To put this into context, obviously the United States is the biggest partner in NATO in terms of by far, by far in terms of its capacity, what it does for NATO, what it spends, et cetera. And there was this big New Yorker piece that came out recently and it described a training exercise in Estonia, which is a member state, to test their readiness for a possible Russian invasion. And of course Estonia would be on the front line of that. The piece noted that Estonia basically has no air force, it has no navy, and in the exercise the team playing the invading army had a capabilities overmatch, quote unquote, more heavy armor, more long range fire. Basically it did not go well for Estonia. Was that exercise a wake up call for you?

Mark Rutte (16:03)

No, but what the New Yorker described, there is Right. But it's not a wake up call because of course, we have all the plans in place that if Estonia will be attacked and the relations know this, that our reaction will be devastating. And I cannot go into all the details, of course, because Putin, I know, is watching these programs. But of course, we have to make sure that we not only have those plans, but we also have the people and the military gear to back it up. And this is exactly why we need to spend more. It's not that the Estonians are left to themselves. It will be the full force of NATO with its 800 F35s here in Europe, with all the NATO, Navy and landmass capabilities, including the full backup of the United States, which will come to the rescue. Putin knows this. This is why he will not attack Estonia today, but he might in five or seven years if he would not make all these extra investments.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (16:54)

There's a key sentence in what you just said which is, with the full backup of the United States, which would come to our defense. I mean, this is clearly so much of the concern and discussion has been about because President Trump has never fully committed to coming up to Europe's defense if indeed something like that should happen. Are you confident at this moment, if Estonia was invaded, that the United States would come to Estonia's aid?

Mark Rutte (17:19)

100%. I have no doubt at all. And it was very clear in the closing press conference in the Hague on this. But also everything I've discussed over the last six months with the new US Administration, that's absolutely no shiver of a doubt, not at all, that the US is completely committed to NATO, is completely committed to Article 5. There is one big irritant, and that is the fact that the Europeans since Eisenhower have not paid their fair share. And of course, the good news of last week is, and that was the transformational outcome of the NATO summit, that finally, for the first time in recent history, European allies will pay the same as the US has paid.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (17:59)

That is the irritant that President Trump talks about publicly. But there is an underlying issue as well, which is that President Trump does not like to get into foreign entanglements. He has a very transactional view of the world in which if it's good for him or good for America, then he will do it. So it again comes back to this idea. Are you certain that the only irritant was that they weren't paying enough, or is there a fundamental disconnect between the way that the, our American president views the world and its commitments to these international organizations?

Mark Rutte (18:32)

I don't believe so. And the reasons we already touched upon it briefly earlier in the interview is that President Trump puts in place an excellent foreign policy team, including Marco Rubio and Pete Hacksett, Matt Whitaker, the ambassador here at NATO. And there is broad spread agreement that when it comes to the defense of NATO territory, the US Is part and parcel. That means that it's not only about defending Europe, it's about the United States. For the reasons I mentioned earlier, that the US Is not secure. If the Atlantic, Europe and the Arctic is not secure. There's a second reason that has to do with Indo Pacific. There's an increasing realization that if China. And that risk is very real, because why is China building up its military as it is building up at the moment, at this pace, not only to have its parades in Beijing, there must be some real world reason why they do this. And of course, this is Taiwan. We all know this. And let's really be not naive about this. If Xi Jinping would attack Taiwan, he will first make sure that he makes a call to his very junior partner in all of this, Vladimir, Vladimir Putin residing in Moscow and telling him, hey, I'm going to do this and I need you to keep them busy in Europe by attacking NATO territory. That is most likely the way this will progress and to deter them. To do this, we need to do two things. One, is NATO collectively being so strong that the Russians will never do this. And secondly, working together with the Indo Pacific, something President Trump is very much promoting, because we have this close interconnectedness working together on defense industry innovation between NATO and Indo Pacific.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (20:09)

I mean, it's interesting that you talk about President Trump's foreign policy team and their understanding and commitment to NATO's security, because the US has had, I believe, up to 100,000 troops stationed across Europe as part of their NATO commitments, including about 20,000 that President Biden deployed following Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But the Trump administration is now saying that it is going to redeploy some of those to other parts of the world. Have you been told what that drawdown will look like?

Mark Rutte (20:38)

There is no talk at this moment of a drawdown. What we know is that Europeans have to spend more. That's what we are doing. When it comes to the troop numbers, we have all agreed there should be no capability gaps in Europe. Whatever needs to happen in the future to pivot more towards Asia has to be done in a way that, indeed those capability gaps are not there, that there are no surprises. This is exactly the way I'm discussing this with the American administration, of course, there are three things at play. There is the actual troop numbers in Europe, as you mentioned, to 100,000 or 80,000, depending on which number we use. There's, of course, the backup from the United States if an attack would take place here, but also the critical enablers and what we are doing in NATO now, a burden shift taking place from the US More to the European allies. So already that burden shift is taking place, opening up the possibility for the US to pivot more towards other theaters.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (21:32)

French President Macron said it would be nice to know what the timeline is for reductions, which says to me that America's greatest European allies do not have a sense of when this is happening and what the number will look like. Do you have a sense of when this is happening and what the number will look like?

Mark Rutte (21:47)

Well, I have a sense of the fact that we all agree that NATO is integral. And let's not forget, the only time Article 5 was ever triggered was a day after 9, 11, when now, Lord Robertson, the then Secretary General, declared an Article 5 situation because of the attack.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (22:05)

Secretary General, what I'm asking here is you say that the commitment is ironclad.

Mark Rutte (22:11)

Yes.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (22:11)

And yet what we are seeing while a war is raging with a resurgent military Russia on Europe's doorstep, is the United States pulling back from Europe.

Mark Rutte (22:24)

United States is not pulling. I really have to correct you. The United States is not pulling away from Europe. What the United States expects the Europeans to do is to take care of their own defense at a larger scale than we do currently, which is only logical. Let me assure you that all the plans we have basically coming from the defence planning process in NATO, leading to the capability targets. Part of those plans is that the Europeans gradually, and this is a shift, take more of the burden for the defense of this part of NATO territory from the US so that the US can therefore pivot more towards Asia, towards the Indo Pacific, as the US should, also with our European interests, because we know that China and North Korea are very much involved in this war effort in Ukraine. So this is all interconnected on Ukraine.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (23:12)

I mean, one place where NATO and the US seem to diverge is on the question of Putin's actual appetite for peace talks. Both Trump and Secretary of State Marco Rubio made comments recently, I mean, very recently, suggesting that they believe talks are still on the table. A senior NATO official, on the other hand, said that, quote, we continue to doubt that Russia has any interest in meaningful negotiations. Where do you stand on this?

Mark Rutte (23:37)

With the risk that I'm again praising President Trump, but I will do it again. He is the one who broke the deadlock with Putin when he became president in January. He started these discussions with Putin and he was the only one who was able to do this, because going forward, this had to happen. A dire dialogue between the American president and the president of the Russian Federation. Then, of course, this is a step by step process. We had now two rounds of peace talks in Istanbul where the Ukrainians sent a very senior team, took it very seriously. And unfortunately, the Russians sent this historian not to be taken so seriously. So we have to take it from here. And that means that in the meantime, we have to make sure that Ukraine has what it needs to stay in the fight. The good news is that Europeans have now cobbled together 35 billion again in military aid this year to deliver to Ukraine, which is more than last year.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (24:29)

Well, the Europeans have had to do that because the United States has stepped back from doing that.

Mark Rutte (24:34)

But isn't that logical that the United States has asked the Europeans, could you please, over time, take more of the burden when it comes to the concrete support to Ukraine? I think that is totally logical and totally fair. So the Europeans are doing that, and that means that this year the total support is higher than last year.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (24:51)

But again, one thing is take over more of the burden. Another thing is actually we're going to pretty much pull the plug.

Mark Rutte (24:58)

Who told you this?

Lulu Garcia Navarro (24:59)

No, no, but I mean, there is a real difference of opinion on what exactly America's. America's commitment to Ukraine is.

Mark Rutte (25:06)

The American administration completely takes the view and the point and shares this with Europeans, that this war in Ukraine is crucial also for the defense of NATO territory going forward. And that we have to make sure that Ukraine is in the strongest possible position to stop the Russians from taking more territory. And that when it comes to a ceasefire or even better, a peace deal, that Ukraine, with some help, will be able to prevent Putin from ever attacking Ukraine again in the future. But when it comes to the actual money spent, I think it's only fair that the Europeans take a bigger share of the burden.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (25:44)

Do you think if there is peace talks and some sort of resolution, that that resolution will mean that Ukraine has to cede significant territory?

Mark Rutte (25:54)

Well, you know, I've decided never to comment on what peace talks might exactly look like, because I want to bring the situation to a point where these peace talks can start. And then I know one thing that it is the Ukrainian president and his administration deciding on what concessions they might yes or no one to do. It's up to them, because this is a sovereign country, they have been attacked. And that means it's really in the hands of President Zelensky to take those decisions.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (26:26)

After the break, Secretary General Rutte on how he sees America's commitment to the alliance.

Mark Rutte (26:33)

I find it a bit unfair that we are constantly questioning the U.S. are you still with us? And if you are still with us, are you really with us? Or might you maybe leave us one day?

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Lulu Garcia Navarro (27:40)

You know, we've been talking about the many challenges of NATO, the many issues that NATO is facing. You stepped in as Secretary General last fall at a time when President Trump was absolutely blasting NATO over and over again. And I'm wondering why you chose to take this on. Did you have any reservations about the job?

Mark Rutte (27:58)

No. To be honest, no. I was first asked by President Biden in January 23rd, but I had to tell him if I would say yes to the job job offer that would lead to new elections in my country. And the Netherlands has a very slow electoral process and then a very slow government formation process. So I thought I could not do that. I just committed to a fourth term. Unfortunately, that team didn't last so long. So in the summer of 23, we had to announce new elections. I decided to step back from national politics after being prime minister for 14 years. And then I thought again about the job offer. But the reason I did it is because I thought with 14 years of national experience, given what is happening in Ukraine, what is happening with Russia, the fact that the Russians and the North Koreans and all of this working together, I thought, okay, if they think I can do this, I can take on this role, who am I to say no? And I must say, since the 1st of October, I'm here and of course it is a very serious job. But at the same time, I can tell you I love every minute of it because there are incredibly good people here and the issues are staggering.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (29:06)

When I was preparing for this interview, obviously I read a lot about you. And one of the things that really struck me was that while you were Prime Minister of the Netherlands, you advocated for withholding pandemic funds from countries that weren't adhering to EU democratic values. What you were saying was countries that aren't acting in a democratic fashion shouldn't perhaps be the beneficiary of money coming.

Mark Rutte (29:30)

From the eu, which was a wild, broadly held view in Europe.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (29:35)

But it made me wonder, do you think countries that aren't credible democracies should be part of NATO?

Mark Rutte (29:40)

Well, I'm now leading this alliance of 32 countries, and that means that I've only one job, and that's making sure that the whole alliance stays together, that we stay on one page. And that means that the last thing I'm going to do is discuss national politics.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (29:56)

Part of the idea of NATO is about allies who share a commitment to democratic values. I mean, it was created for that. And now you have, as part of this alliance, what some would call a democratically backsliding United States. You have Hungary, which calls itself an illiberal democracy. And you have Turkey under President Erdogan, which has been called an electoral autocracy. I mean, can this alliance hold when the very values at its heart are no longer commonly held in the way that perhaps they once had been?

Mark Rutte (30:29)

Well, I'm not sure I would completely subscribe to all the assumptions in your question, but that is a debate. As democracies we can have. That is why we are indeed an alliance of democracies. And I can tell you that in NATO, you will have many debates and issues between countries. There are debates on values, on everything. That's exactly why this alliance is so alive and so strong, because we sometimes have these tough issues. We fight them out, and then we come together and agree. And at this moment, I can only tell you that this alliance of 32 countries is stronger and more united than ever in recent history. And America plays a big role here, and the new administration, but also, of course, the threat from the Russians. But I cannot, in my role, debate the pluses and minuses of what is happening in each of the 32 allies. It will never do that, because my role and job is to make sure the alliance stays together as strong as possible.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (31:26)

Right, But Viktor Orban's close relationship with Putin is very well documented. So it's not just about debates and competing viewpoints. This is about the very soul of the alliance and what it's meant to do.

Mark Rutte (31:38)

I understand. And that means that sometimes internally, without a press there, and that is not very democratic, but that's the only way to do it. That sometimes internally and in A discrete way. You have your discussions, debates, but never out in the open. That's impossible. And by the way, what you said about the US and backsliding, I would not agree with this. I think the US Is still one of the strongest democracies on earth.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (32:01)

Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth recently refused to rule out military intervention in Greenland, possibly a takeover. I mean, you've said before directly to President Trump that you don't want to drag NATO into this. But Greenland is governed by Denmark, a member of NATO. So what do you do when one NATO country is talking about attacking their territory of another or taking over the territory of another?

Mark Rutte (32:23)

Sorry for the boring answer again, but when it comes to these issues between NATO allies, I can never comment about them in public. That has not been done for 76 years by. No, the Secretary General is only there since 74 years. The NATO is there for 76 years.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (32:38)

It's this overarching question about what is the alliance really about if these 32 members are still united by a common vision of what it's supposed to achieve?

Mark Rutte (32:49)

And they are, and we are.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (32:53)

So it doesn't concern you that Trump has also talked about annexing Canada, for example, also a NATO member?

Mark Rutte (32:58)

I mean, when I'm not commenting about discussions between individual allies, of course I will not comment on that. No, I can't. That's not my role.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (33:09)

Just to step back. I think a lot of what is being discussed around NATO in the United States and really in Europe, from what I've heard, is uncertainty around America's role in the alliance. And the reason that there's this uncertainty is because of the things that we've discussed. You know, Trump's America is mercurial on its international obligations. Things like the Greenland and Canada issues make people worry about America's expansionist ambitions. Possibly. And so. So as an alliance, that so relies on the intelligence, the manpower, the weapons, the logistics, the nuclear umbrella. Can there be a NATO without the US if it ever came to that.

Mark Rutte (33:53)

But it won't come to that. It won't. Let me give you another picture. So this is one picture. Let me give you another one. Eight countries at 2% this year would never have happened without Trump. The whole of NATO committing to this 5% would not have happened without President Trump there. I mean, all these things are there because of President Trump and his team. So this is also a way to look at it. So I think this is very much in foreign relations, foreign policy, investing American president understanding the power the US Has. Of course, his style can Be a bit harsh, yes. But without that style and him being sometimes harsh, I'm not sure that we would have the outcome. At the NATO summit last week, we had.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (34:37)

Listening to you talk, I am hearing you articulate the feeling that you clearly, strongly have that Trump is handling America's role in the world very well and that you don't have any concerns about his relationship with NATO. What do you think the president's critics don't understand about him and the way he views America's role in the world?

Mark Rutte (35:01)

You know, so I'm a transatlanticist. I was born in a family which felt deeply indebted to the United States, together with Canada and Poland, liberating my part of Europe, the Netherlands. And I've always been raised with the absolute realization that without a transatlantic relationship which keeps the US Strong, which keeps Europe strong, we might have been communist in this part of Europe. Europe at this moment, and part of the Soviet Union instead of a part of the free world. And President Trump, in my view, is totally committed to that tradition. Very irritated indeed about the somewhat free rider thing here in Europe. And that has now been corrected. And I find it a bit unfair that we are constantly questioning the U.S. are you still with us? And if you are still with us, are you really with us, or might you maybe leave us one day?

Lulu Garcia Navarro (35:59)

To be fair, that's based on the president's own statements. This is not supposition, but please go on.

Mark Rutte (36:05)

Yeah, but when you, for example, what he said about Article 5. Article 5 is ambiguous in itself because we will never want to make Putin or Xi Jinping or whoever might ever try something against us wiser than he or she is at the moment. And look at this closing press conference in the Hague. I mean, it couldn't be clearer than this put on the television when President Macron was visiting the White House, when Prime Minister Starmer was visiting the White House, when Prime Minister Maloney was visiting the White House. Listen to President Trump's comments. You cannot have a clearer commitment to NATO than what he said on those occasions.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (36:37)

So you think NATO will last another 50 years with America at its heart?

Mark Rutte (36:41)

Absolutely. Absolutely. I have no doubt. America being the leader in the world and also within NATO, but it's the Europeans taking their fair share in terms of the burden, and that's only good. And that makes that NATO is stronger and fairer and more lethal. Exactly as we should be.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (37:00)

Secretary General Mark Rutte, thank you so much for your time.

Mark Rutte (37:02)

Thank you so much for this interview. Thank you.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (37:09)

That's NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Marian Lozano photography by David Vintner. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedikt. Video of this interview was produced by Brooke Minters, Felice Leon and Paula Neudorf. Cinematography by Devin Ujale, Tom Escormel and Oliver Impfeld. Audio by Luis Trunk. It was edited by Eddie Costas and Amy Marino. Special thanks to Stephen Erlinger, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann and Sam Dolnick. And we have a new YouTube channel where you can watch this interview and many others. You can subscribe@YouTube.com Next week, David talks with artistic power couple Mandy Patinkin and Katherine Grody, along with their son Gideon, about finding viral fame online in their 70s and what they've learned from 45 years of marriage.

Mark Rutte (38:25)

When you can't even watch the person you chose to live your life with eat, it so repulses you. You can't watch them eat. You don't want to hear them speak. You're just looking for the exit constantly. I just learned. Let it go.

Lulu Garcia Navarro (38:43)

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from the New York Times.

Mark Rutte (39:02)

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