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- [00:00]
Isabel Brown
Every drop of Jack Daniels is mellowed.
- [00:03]
Cole Swindell
Through sugar maple charcoal, giving Jack its smooth taste.
- [00:06]
Isabel Brown
That's what makes Jack Jack.
- [00:09]
Matthew West
Please drink responsibly. Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.
- [00:15]
Isabel Brown
Today, Tuesday, October 14th, would be Charlie Kirk's 32nd birthday to honor his life and his incredible impact and to give encouragement to his family and the people all over the world who followed and loved Charlie and who, like us, are hurting. Today we wanted to take this effort episode of the Isabel Brown show to offer a very special tribute in his memory. I have been, and we all have been deeply moved watching the musical community use their special talents to speak out for Charlie and to offer us comfort as we process our grief. And that is what this episode is all about. We have spent time talking to artists who were so moved by Charlie's life, devastated by his death, and inspired to pick up his microphone and to help share his message with the world in whatever way they could. Today, we are going to be joined by artists across a variety of genres and generations alike. Matthew West, Cole Swindell, John Rich, Abe Parker, and Ann Wilson. It's a powerful, moving reflection on Charlie Kirk and you are not going to want to miss a minute. Happy birthday, Charlie. We love you. We love Erica and the kids and we love our whole worldwide Turning Point USA family. This, Charlie, is for you. You guys know I have been traversing the country. I think this is my fourth state in four days. So one of our artists actually was not able to join me at the same time in person, but we recorded something remote. I am so unbelievably grateful for this. First person you're going to hear from today, Matthew west, who guided by the light of the gospel and the impact of Charlie Kirk, has taken time to write a very special tribute song in his memory, dedicating it to Charlie's family and the legacy that will only continue to live on in his memory. Let's take a look. Matthew, thank you so much for being here today and helping us to celebrate Charlie's birthday and the legacy that his life is leaving behind for an entire generation. Talk to me about what hearing the news felt like for you and this shift that we're seeing in our country. Was it obvious to you right away that we would really never live in the same world again? What was your immediate reaction?
- [02:39]
Matthew West
Yeah, thanks for having me, Isabel. It's an honor to be here and on a special day to honor the life of an incredible young man who Left this world way too soon. Man, September 10th sure seems like it's going to be a day that we'll always remember where we were. The first thing that I felt was just a. A shock and a heaviness, just a wave of heaviness over the entire west household. I was actually in a songwriting appointment that day in my studio, and we were. Ironically, we were writing a song about joy and the reason that we have joy. And my wife rushed into the studio and told us the news about Charlie, and. Yeah, so I think that initial wave of heaviness was quickly met with grief and questions. And, you know, I had been a fan of Charlie's for a long time, just watching his videos and just being inspired by his bold stance, but also the way that he exercised his right to free speech in such a respectful way. And I have teenage daughters, you know, who. Who need young influencers like Charlie, showing them the way and speaking into their lives like Charlie had done on one college campus after the other. So I. I think, though, you could quickly sense things beginning to shift in the hours and days that follow, just the outpouring of support. And really, I've just sensed a stirring in the weeks following as I've toured across the country. And I was just, you know, on stage in an arena Sunday night in Pennsylvania, and I sang the song Unashamed, and I sang it in honor of Charlie Kirk. And I just asked the crowd, are you feeling a stirring like I'm feeling a stirring in the wake of Charlie Kirk's death, to be bold in your faith? And how many of you want to hear the words that I believe Charlie got to hear when he stood before the Lord, which is, well done, thou good and faithful servant. And the entire crowd of thousands standing up on their feet and cheering and honoring the life of a man who showed us what it looked like to run his race well. So I definitely have felt just a stirring taking place and a spiritual awakening, as well as just a cultural awakening of going, what kind of voice am I going to have in the world, and am I willing to use it even if it comes? Comes at a cost.
- [04:53]
Isabel Brown
What do you think stood out so uniquely about Charlie in embodying courage and boldness and encouraging so many other young people to run that race, too?
- [05:04]
Matthew West
Well, there's a verse in the Bible that says, do not let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers. I think it's 1 Timothy 4:12. I'm sure you have fact checkers, though, so. But that. That Scripture is one that I always thought about when I would watch this young guy get up and just armed with an incredible deep well of knowledge, but also a clear compassion for the people that he was debating with. I think that's. That's just something that, like, it was just undeniable. And even in the wake of Charlie's death, it was. It's been crazy to see, like, you know, I posted on social media just, you know, feeling a stirring. I wanted to use my platform and any platform God's given me, whether it's through writing a song or a social media post, to honor someone like Charlie, who I believe is a Christian martyr. And it was unbelievable just how even how much hatred came my way, you know, or anybody who voiced support for Charlie and his family in the wake of this. It's just. It's crazy when you think about how many people just settle for taking little clips out of context. And, I mean, context is everything, right? And so that's one of the things that I noticed so much about, even in these weeks that have followed, just people, they'll either choose to dig further into their beliefs and just take some sort of a clickbait quote that was taken completely out of context and then just put that stamp on who they think Charlie Kirk was. But when you pull back the curtain and dare to actually do your research and read and watch and literally see with your own eyes how he demonstrated what it looked like to be a Christian and a light in a dark world, I mean, I can think of few greater examples than the one that he set for all of us.
- [06:55]
Isabel Brown
That hatred is getting really loud in the last couple of weeks, and I'm seeing almost this veil being lifted of the legitimate spiritual warfare that we, as Christians do believe is constantly raging on around us at all times, and we're constantly fighting in, even if we can't see it with our naked eye. But I'm also watching this boldness and unashamed proclamation of belief in God come from young people especially. And it's reminding me that as Christians, we're not promised that we're going to be loved by the world or accepted by the world. When we follow truth, and we believe truth has a name, and that name is Jesus. And when we share that with the world, we're actually promised to be hated by the world. Christ himself promised us that over and over again. What does that mean for you in your career as a musician? And as you're seeing all this hatred come to the surface, do you think we're not going to care so much about the idea of being canceled or ostracized by the world, well, that's just.
- [07:52]
Matthew West
Another thing that inspired me about Charlie. He was not afraid to be hated. And I think, you know, I'm in a profession that like, you know, I started singing songs and the first time somebody clapped for me, I was like, hey, that feels pretty good, you know what I mean? And it's like I can get up on stage in a safe environment with like minded people and sing songs about Jesus and have people cheer for me. But the stirring that I felt in the wake of Charlie's death is to be unashamed in my faith. And people say, well, that, that's weird because you sing about Jesus everywhere you go. But what I'm talking about is the stirring that I felt, the conviction that I felt in my heart is, is the other 23 hours of my day not when I'm just standing up, singing a song for an audience and hearing them cheer for me. That's the easy part. It's about when I go through the rest of my day. It's about how I engage on social media. It's about looking for opportunities when God puts somebody in my path. To be a light and to not, you know, spiritually fall asleep, but to be awake and to think, how many people can I take to heaven with me today? How many people can I be a light to in the other 23 hours of my day? Not just seeking the applause of man. There's a line in one of my songs called Unashamed. And it's made me think about Charlie. And every time I find myself singing it on stage since Charlie's death, I think about him and I think about like I just, I almost sing it kind of angry. And the line says, I don't answer to the crowd, I answer to a king. So the louder they shout, the louder I'm going to sing. And then it poses a question. What's going to be said of me when it's all said and done? Did I stand for my beliefs or did I turn around and run? Well, let the whole world hear me say I'm unashamed. And so, yes, I think hear it from me personally. And what I'm seeing all around me is I think there's a whole lot of people are saying, you know what? Am I willing to be unashamed? Even if it comes at a cost? Am I willing to stand up for truth and what is right and good and pure? Even if it doesn't, even if it doesn't Even if it's not met with the applause of the crowd, the answer has to be yes. Because as you said, Jesus told us they hated him first. And by us choosing to become a follower of Christ and to stand up for what is right and good is true. There is a whole world that hates everything that you're gonna stand for. But that's what it means to be counterculture. In fact, we should be alarmed if we're not getting pushback. We should be. That should make all the bells go off to say, am I being bold enough? You know, if all I'm ever doing is getting applauded, that can mean one of two things. My message is watered down, or I'm only surrounding myself with like minded people and I'm not seeking out ways to go into the. To go into the world, right? That's the great Commission, right? To be the light of the world, not just the light of your. Your small little like minded group of believers. And Charlie demonstrated that as well, didn't he? He left the four walls of the church, he left the safety of his studio, and day in and day out, he took a light into a dark world. And it was a dark world that didn't want that light to expose the darkness, but he did it nonetheless.
- [10:53]
Isabel Brown
As Charlie used to always say, we have to go right into the heart of culture and try to change it from the inside out. And I never met anyone who was as skilled as him at doing that. I'm also starting to see that in the music industry. And you and so many other musicians have penned tributes to Charlie through new songwriting. You've dedicated songs to Charlie while you've been singing. I understand you have a song to share with us today in honor of Charlie for his birthday. Can you share with us a little bit of background about the song and then we would love to hear it.
- [11:23]
Matthew West
Absolutely. September 10th, after we found out that Charlie had gone home to be with the Lord, I gathered my wife and my two daughters together and we talked about it and we prayed and we prayed for Erica and his family. And later that night, I heard a song coming from my daughter's bedroom. And she was just up there, my 19 year old daughter with her guitar, and she was singing when peace like a river attendeth my way. She was singing this old hymn from my childhood. It is well, it is well with my soul. And I went to bed that night and the verse, that a Bible verse woke me up early that morning. I don't want to romanticize it, but literally that's what happened? I woke up early in the morning and. And I was thinking of Psalm 34:18. And that is such a powerful scripture that reminds us where God is. I think so many scriptures in the Bible are focused on proximity, on God's closeness to us, on God's search for us, that he would leave the 99 to find the 1. And Psalm 34:18 is such a powerful promise of where God is when we hurt, when we grieve, when we're brokenhearted, when we're crushed in spirit, when we wonder where he is. He tells us quite clearly the Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. And so I did what I always do when I'm trying to work out my feelings and my emotions. I went to my studio, I picked up my guitar and just sang a simple prayer claiming the promise of Scripture to be a promise that is true. And that's one thing I believe in a world filled with promise makers that are not as good at keeping the promise. We have a God who's given us His Word, and he keeps 100% of his promises. And so in times of grief, in times of times of turmoil, in times of trial and times of questions, we can build a firm foundation on promises that God will always deliver. And so this was the song that came out. It's just an acknowledgement of Like Man. The first line says, I can't unsee what I've just seen. And I think we've all had moments like that in recent weeks where we're just watching one headline after the other going, oh, man, I wish I never had to see that. I wish this world wasn't so broken. God, where are you? Oh, wait a minute. I remember where he is. He's close.
- [13:41]
Isabel Brown
I cannot wait to hear it. Matthew west, take it away. Be close.
- [13:53]
Matthew West (singing)
I can unsee what I've.
- [13:57]
John Rich
Just seen.
- [14:00]
Matthew West (singing)
I can't make sense of one more senseless tragedy.
- [14:07]
Cole Swindell (singing)
Another light.
- [14:10]
Matthew West (singing)
Put out by dark this wicked world just makes me wonder where you are, Jesus Be close to the brokenhearted Save those who are crushed in spirit we know that you've always been our only hope Be near when our minds are flooded with fear Be the hand that's wiping our tears in the voice that whispers weary so be still and know I'll always be close where there is hate let there be peace and where I don't see a change Let change begin with me where there is evil be not dismayed Give me the strength to stare that evil in the face and see say Jesus Be close to the brokenhearted Save those who were crushed in spirit we know that you've always been our only hope Be near when our minds are flooded with fear Be the hand that's wiping our tears and the voice that whispers weary soul Be still and know I'll always be close in our hurting Be close in our grieving Be close in our crying Be close We need you Lord we need you in our families Be close in our country Be close in this lost world Be close oh, we need you and Jesus Be close to the brokenhearted Save those who are crushed in spirit we know that you've always been our only hope Be near when our minds are flooded with fear Be the hand that's wiping our tears and the voice that whispers weary so be still and know I'll always be close Lord Be close.
- [17:18]
Isabel Brown
Matthew, that was so, so beautiful. And you know, I've been reflecting on this in the last few weeks, that in the midst of what can only be described for those of us that knew and love Charlie as the most painful heartbreak we've ever experienced, we also, weirdly, are still seeing so many miracles work through this and to see the light and feel the love and closeness of God. You articulated that so perfectly as we let you go today in celebrating Charlie's birthday. Do you have a message of encouragement or support for other people who are thinking to themselves, how can I live like Charlie Kirk today?
- [17:55]
Matthew West
It's a great question, and thank you for having me here. I'm so honored to be able to share that song. And you know, what you just said I think is important, and it makes me think of another promise of God in Romans that reminds us, and this is one of the hardest promises to believe sometimes, is that God really can and does work all things for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. And so I would pose a question to your listeners today. Do you love him? Do you believe that you're called according to his purpose? Well, if you believe those things are true, then you can build your house, your life, your story on a firm foundation, knowing that storms will come, tragedy will come, tears will come. We are broken people living in a broken world. But we do not grieve as the world grieves, because we know that weeping may last for a night, but joy comes in the morning. When we begin to look at our lives and this world through an eternal lens, we get a whole new perspective. And it's a perspective that's dripping with hope. Even in grief, we can grieve with hope. And we can take one step after the other into this broken and this dark world. And we can do that with hope, knowing that God is with us, that he is for us and not against us, that he will take even the bad things and turn them into something good. And then that ultimately our final resting place is an eternity in heaven. And may we run our race in such a way that we get to hear the same words Charlie Kirk got to hear. Well done, thou good and faithful servant.
- [19:38]
Isabel Brown
Matthew West. Thank you for being with us today on the Isabel Brown show, and we are absolutely planning the next stop on your tour to try to come find you as soon as we possibly can and hear more of your beautiful music.
- [19:49]
Matthew West
Thank you. Keep up the great work and thanks for letting me be a part of this.
- [19:56]
Isabel Brown
Colt Swindell, I am so excited to have you here on the show today. I have been a huge fan of yours for a very, very long and in the last couple of weeks going through some of these really dark moments, it made me so excited to see your name pop up as someone taking time and space to honor the beautiful Charlie Kirk and his life and legacy. Walk us through how you found out that this tragedy had happened and what your feelings were right afterwards.
- [20:22]
Cole Swindell
Yeah, well, first off, thank you for having me. This is such a special, special thing and I'm honored to be a small part of it. But, yeah, I was getting ready to go on the road and I was literally, me and Courtney and our brand new baby girl, we were just laying around and talking and we had the, you know, the news on and all of a sudden she got a text from a friend and that told us the. And we're like, no way. No way. And so we flipped on the news and we're following it. And it's just, you know, I just, the feelings, I don't know that you can actually put, you know, what you were feeling into words other than just couldn't believe it, you know, just shock and, you know, sad, scared, mad, Just a lot of it, you know, and that's kind of just, that's how we. We found out the news. And it's just like I said, as a, you know, we just celebrated our first wedding anniversary as a husband, just had our first kid as a father. Just, you know, I think it hit everybody a little, little different.
- [21:28]
Isabel Brown
It did. And I was really shocked. Obviously, for those of us in the more political world who knew Charlie and who worked with him for a long time, we were completely devastated. But I'm still shocked to see the global impact and the outpouring of support and loss and heartbreak and just raw emotion that people from across the board are experiencing, especially in the music community. What are you seeing in your own communities and what people are talking about?
- [21:54]
Cole Swindell
You know, I think, like I said, I hate that something like this had to happen to. I've said it before. I feel like, you know, bad things happen. It brings us all together, and then we slowly drift back apart. And this is just something that I think this is. You know, a lot of us drew the line like, this is. This is it. You know, I mean, a guy just, you know, got assassinated for believing how I believe, except for he was a little more bold about it. And I think that's what got me. It was just, you know, made me look in the mirror, you know, somebody that's living like I should be living and spreading the word as a Christian, you know, what I should be doing with the platform that I have. And I think, you know, you're seeing that. And like I said, I am by no means the first one. Obviously, John. Rich people, the Aldeans, I mean, people that have led the way in that. And now, like I said, I just think a lot of us are just, you know, fed up with feeling like we can't say how we believe. I mean, that's. There's no harm in that, you know, And I. Like I said, I'm a loving person. I'm not judgmental. I kind of stay out of the way and do my own thing and try to be good to people, and that's just not. It's not good enough anymore. You know, I have to influence other people to be good to people and just. Just keep trying to do all we can. Like I said, I never had a chance to meet Charlie, but I'm learning a lot more about him every day. I mean, the clips, the things I'm seeing, I mean, even this song was inspired. I happened to run across the clip of Erica the first time she spoke afterward. And that. That really is what. Is what hit me the hardest. You know, I'd heard Make Heaven Crowded. I'd seen the phrase, but it never, never hit me, like, when I watched her say that, you know, Charlie, you alongside Jesus, doing what you always wanted to do, make heaven crowded.
- [23:43]
Isabel Brown
In the country music world. You kind of alluded to this. Over the past few years, there have been a few people who have been a little more outspoken on some cultural issues we're dealing with. And almost immediately, I see the music community respond as if they're no longer as a list or as big of a deal as they are, they're suddenly treated less seriously or they're considered, you know, more fringe and not associated with the big names in country music. As you've watched the last few weeks unfold and people being a lot more honest and raw and authentic about their beliefs, do you think we're about to see a pretty big pendulum swing or change happen here in Nashville or just around country music in general?
- [24:20]
Cole Swindell
You know, I hope so, and I hope it's not just in country music. I do feel like, you know, we're all going for the same thing here. And, you know, I just. Like I said, I hate that something like this had to happen, but I. I feel like those that know Charlie and that. That knew him best, you know, the fact that this has sparked this and you keep seeing the word revival and stuff, and I. I believe it. I mean, this is. I've never seen anything like it in my life. And if there's ever a chance for us to stand up and to keep this going, we cannot lose right now. It just feels like everybody knows that we've. We've got to do something. And. And Charlie is a huge part of that. And I just. Like I said, my heart breaks that. That his family and. And kids, it's just. It's heartbreaking. So we. That's the least we can do is just honor him and keep, you know, spreading the good word and being good to people.
- [25:12]
Isabel Brown
That word revival is one of Charlie's favorite words, always has been. And Erica shared in her response to everything at the memorial service that Charlie's ultimate dream, especially if he were eventually to which I don't think any of us doubted eventually he would, was to revive the American family. You just mentioned that you are a new husband and a new dad. I'm a new mom and a new wife. What does that mean to you with that legacy? And how can more young people tap into that?
- [25:38]
Cole Swindell
I mean, I've been thinking about this lately. I'm so glad you asked. I have chills because, you know, that is something I see him talk about, like, get married, have kids, and, you know, I don't know that until you do that. You really understand now. I understand why he was saying that. You know, even just the getting married part for me, you know, that took me a little longer, but once I've done it, it's like, man, I wish I would have found this. Or this feeling is incredible. But then you go, you have kids, and we just had our first Little daughter two months ago, and just. Oh, my gosh. I mean, now you want to go tell people you have to do that. There's nothing else like it. It's. No matter what you do for a living, what you've accomplished, it does not. I mean, looking into her eyes, knowing that nothing else matters. I mean, that. Why would you not want to share that with people? Why would you not want people to feel that? And that just shows you. I mean, even now, I never knew him, but the fact he was pushing people for that feeling is because he knew what it felt like, and he knew it was the best feeling in the world, I would have to think. And just to want people to be happy. I mean, that's truly all he was after. And to see, you know, the mixed reaction, it's just. It's unbelievable that he. Like I said, he's definitely made an impact on me. So has Erica, and I will, you know, anything I can ever do. If I'd have never seen her say that, and her talking about, you know, what he always wanted to do. That part of the speech hit me harder than the Make Heaven Crowded because it made me look in the mirror and say, would Courtney say that about me if I was gone tomorrow? And I didn't think that she would, you know, And I just think that, you know, that that's what hit me and said I have to use my platform. And if that's lyrics, if that's words from my heart, then that's what it's gotta. And just to see the reaction just gives me hope. A song can't do anything unless we, you know, put it into action. And Charlie, like I said, he's a big inspiration to me.
- [27:28]
Isabel Brown
Those words did come to you in the wake of his death, and you put together one of the most beautiful tribute songs I think anybody has written about Charlie. I'll try not to get too emotional. I've only been able to listen to it two or three times because I break out in tears every time. But your song Make Heaven Crowded is about the legacy of Charlie and his mission to tell the truth to the world and what we can do in the wake of this tragedy to keep that going and pick up the torch moving forward. How did you find the inspiration to write this? Was it different or the same from your normal songwriting process? And I'm excited to react to it here in a few minutes with you, too.
- [28:03]
Cole Swindell
Yeah, you know, it's like I said, it's unique, the situation. I. I've never. I just put out an album In June, I had no plans of putting music out, but obviously nobody had any plans of this happening. So just to, you know, to write a song, that it was something that was on my heart, you know. And like I said, I really, when I heard Erica say those words I had heard make Kevin crowded, but it just didn't, it didn't hit me like it, it did now. And it's just, it was just a wake up call. And like I said, I, you know, I've never been in a situation where I've just felt, you know, led to write a song. And like the idea, like, I knew it was from, like, I've literally been praying and praying about just personally, like, what, you know, do I still need to do this? Can I. Should I hang it up, be a dad? And like I said this song, the reaction, I think it was the Lord telling me, look, you're, you know, your career's not over. You're just not going any further without me. My wife told me that and I, I believe it. I think that, you know, Charlie has, you know, the way he lived his life has sparked something in all of us. No matter what it is you do, I think, you know, for me, this song, it means the world. And to play it live and to see the react now, the, to see the American flags, the freedom shirt start showing up in, in the crowd, it's just, it's real. And man, I, I, like I said, this song is if it helps one person, if it, if it changes one person's heart, then it's, it's done its job. I feel like, and like I said, I'm just, just honored to be here and on such a special day. Man, I wish, I wish I could have met him.
- [29:38]
Isabel Brown
Well, for those that have not yet heard your song, I'm incredibly excited for you guys to hear Cole Swindell's Make Heaven Crowded. Like listen to it together and then pick up on the other side I.
- [30:02]
Cole Swindell (singing)
Blame my sin and on I ain't no saying I bit my tongue said that it, it ain't my place and I've kept Jesus in the backseat But I can't any longer after what we all saw last week I can't help but wonder what if churches had a longer line outside and all them bars on Friday night? What if people pray for people who ain't on their side? What if good ran off the bath damn streets and go up that beat path this whole world will look a lot better than we found it.
- [30:51]
Abe Parker
If.
- [30:51]
Cole Swindell (singing)
We make heaven crowded what would the headlines And TV man say if we didn't give them no bad news to break, we all quit throwing punches and held out a helping hand that devil couldn't touch us, no, he wouldn't stand a chance if all them churches had a longer line outside and all them bars on Friday night. What if people pray for people who ain't on their side?
- [31:34]
Matthew West (singing)
What if.
- [31:34]
Cole Swindell
Good up every.
- [31:41]
Cole Swindell (singing)
Look a lot better than we found it.
- [31:50]
Cole Swindell
Yep. So that's.
- [31:52]
Isabel Brown
Wow. You start the song, Cole, with these words that I think are a real big gut punch to a whole lot of people of. I've kept Jesus in the back seat. I've said it's not my place to say anything. What does that mean to you?
- [32:06]
John Rich
It's.
- [32:06]
Cole Swindell
I knew to write this song. Like I said. I just. Who am I to. To write this song? And just the pressure. That idea. I just knew it could, you know, hopefully bring people together, but I knew I couldn't write it without calling myself out and. And just like it. It was the truth. I mean, I literally. It made me look in the mirror at my own life. And I just think there's a lot of other people. I knew that if it didn't catch you right off the bat and. Yeah, let people know I'm not preaching. I'm just, you know, we've. We've got to do something. I don't have all the answers, but, you know, I've blamed it on. Well, I never said I was perfect, but that's just. That's not good enough, you know? And I have kept Jesus in the back seat now, thanks to my wife and my baby girl. It's just he is. The Lord is, you know, working on me like he never has. And it's just. Like I said all this. I just hope that the song, it finds people and helps people out because I just. Like I said, I didn't get to meet Charlie, and I. I hope I get to tell his, you know, all of his people someday how much I just admire him.
- [33:08]
Isabel Brown
Yeah. Do you have a message for other musicians and. Or people who love music, your fans, on how we can live like Charlie Kirk and make heaven crowded every day?
- [33:18]
Cole Swindell
Man, I've. You know, I've always tried to live by the, you know, the golden rule, just, you know, treating people the way you want to be treated. But as far as music, I think anytime I've ever taken a chance and written something I was scared to maybe put out there, just. You find out there's so many other people that. That feel just like you. And until you take that step and put that out there, you just, you may never, you may never know. And like I said, I've not been one in the past that's ever done that. And this song is, is not about me or my career. This literally is, you know, to honor Charlie and to spread Jesus everywhere we can. And that's, that's why I do believe I, you know, have a platform and just people that do, you know, just use it for good. You know, who am I to tell you how to use it? But it's just there's so many people out there hurting that need it and they may look up to you. And the fact that, you know, if you can ever let them know, like, hey, I've been through stuff too. And that's all we're trying to do. We're trying to connect through music. So if you can do that, that's as a songwriter, as a singer, that's kind of, I think that's what I'm called to do from here on out.
- [34:24]
Isabel Brown
That's what it's all about, ultimately. Cole, thank you for your bravery and your courage. Thank you for taking your platform to honor such an incredible man and for joining us here today on Charlie's birthday. It means the absolute world to us.
- [34:35]
Cole Swindell
Thank you so much.
- [34:37]
Isabel Brown
As we continue to see the pursuit of truth reign true in the music industry, it is shocking to me that more people haven't considered the same in journalism. Media too. And how many people haven't heard of YAF's National Journalism Center? There is not a more consequential or important pipeline from college into conservative media than the NJC. They boast a 12 week internship training program that is fully paid and gives you access to the best reporters and personalities in the business. It also sticks you right in a working newsroom in the very first week. If you want to be at the heart and center of the nation's biggest political stories, NJC is the fastest way to do it. We have had several reporters here at the Daily Wire who have even attended NJC and launched their professional careers immediately. Our NJC alumni have pursued stories relentlessly, like taking pictures from a helicopter to expose illegal immigrants and so much more. Their reporting was actually featured on Ben Shapiro's podcast, Fox News and a whole host of other prominent media outlets. This reporting from Daily Wire's NJC alum has created real, tangible change and puts concrete wins on the board for all American patriots. It all traces back to NJC's internship journalism bootcamp which covers everything you need to break into media, whether you're interested in podcasting like me, video production, print reporting, or independent journalism. More importantly, if you are just tired of the fake news liberal media and you want to win, get off the sidelines and into the game. You can submit your application to the National Journalism center today. Joining us now on the Isabel Brown show to pay tribute and homage to our friend Charlie Kirk is our friend John Rich. John, thank you so much for being here today on this tough but very special and important day to honor our friend.
- [36:24]
John Rich
I appreciate the invitation to talk about him. What a great man and a guy that I had gotten to know because I'd played several of their big events, including the big one out in Arizona. So to be able to come in and say a few words about him is quite an honor.
- [36:37]
Isabel Brown
Yeah. You know, earlier in our conversation with Cole Swindell, he referenced you as a source of inspiration for somebody in music who really blazed the trail, along with Jason Aldean, to shake things up and be unapologetic about the things that you believe in, to be honest about your values, even when you knew that would come at a cost. What encouraged you to do that originally and did Charlie have anything to do with it?
- [37:00]
John Rich
You know, I think as an American, you always have this. You have this decision to make at some point, especially in today's culture. And that is, am I willing to say what I really think and stand for, what I really stand for, knowing I'm going to take a horrible bloody nose in my career or possibly worse. And I wrestled with that for many years because my American dream was to play country music, be on the radio, I play the Grand Ole Opry, write hit songs, all of that. And so knowing that the industry was so liberal, if I came out swinging as a Christian conservative patriot, I'm probably going to be short lived from that point forward, at least in that part, that part of the world. And sure enough, that was the case. I'm not on the radio anymore. I don't get invited to their big fancy parties. But on the other hand, I can say whatever I want to. I don't have a record deal, a publishing deal. I have no contracts. So I'm a free agent. I can speak the truth. I can speak what's important to. And you know, Charlie represented that. I mean, you see a guy who knew that walking into those situations was going to be uncomfortable at the least and potentially dangerous, which now we know it was actually deadly to walk into those situations. But he represents what it means to be a real Christian, real Christians don't just speak the truth when it's comfortable. Matter of fact, quite the opposite. In the New Testament, Jesus said, you will be persecuted for bearing my name. Basically saying, if they're gonna come after me, they're gonna come after you. But at the end of the day, you're not here to make the world happy. You're here to make him happy. And when an evil world despises you, that's actually a check of approval that you said it correctly. And I think nobody set that example better than Charlie.
- [38:45]
Isabel Brown
As you're watching, in the aftermath of his death, so many people come out of the woodwork in the music industry to pay tribute to him and write songs about him. Do you think that we're about to see a seismic shift here in Nashville and across the music industry at large with people being a bit more unapologetic? And what can we expect from that?
- [39:04]
John Rich
I think you are going to see not only in the industry, but I think, in the young people in America. So I have two sons, 13 and 15, 14 and 15. Now, they had a really serious reaction to what happened because they had been watching Charlie Kirk videos on YouTube. You know, they would check in and listen to him, and to them, they just couldn't believe he was gone. And they felt compelled that now it's our turn.
- [39:26]
Isabel Brown
Turn.
- [39:27]
John Rich
It's our turn to put on red ties and jackets. It's our turn to walk in like young men, not like kids. It's our turn to be leaders in our country. I think you are going to see this become a revolution of Christianity, of guys and girls wanting to get married and have kids, go out there and work. I think they're realizing how shallow culture has become, how shallow and meaningless. The things that they spend their time on most of the time mean they don't mean anything. And I think now their attention is, I want to do things that count, things that are legacy, things that mean something in the world. I don't think that's going away. Matter of fact, imagine when my sons are having kids and this whole generation start having their own kids and they're teaching them the truth. Yeah. I think it could have impacts on our country for the next 50 to 100 years, potentially.
- [40:17]
Isabel Brown
Charlie had a mission, really, to revive the concept of the family, because he loved his children so much, he loved his marriage so much, and he wanted so many other young people to experience that, too. I owe my family to Charlie. I met my husband working at Turning Point usa, and our daughter only exists because of him. Do you think that we're going to see this marriage revival and family revival really transcend across just America and across Western civilization as well.
- [40:44]
John Rich
Well, are we still the human race? Yes, we are. We are still the human race. God created man and woman, and for them to procreate, go forth and multiply, as he said, that's always been the tradition of human beings, is to find your partner and go multiply and have your own kids. It's the greatest. It's literally the greatest feeling a person can ever have, as you know and as I know. And I think that that has been downplayed, ridiculed, demonized even. To go out and get married and have kids. I mean, we've seen it in the media. No, you don't need to do that. You need to be a Kardashian. You need to be a pro athlete. You need to be this, be that, that. What about just being a regular good dad or a regular good mom? And they've never really talked about the, the benefits you get back, back to yourself when you become a good dad or a good mom. But there's nothing in the world that compares. And so I do think with Charlie's death, the, the mask of shallowness has been pulled back off of our culture. And that people like Cole Schindell, he just talked to, it's. It's giving people a line of sight into the real deep things of life that really matter. And I think they will take advantage of it.
- [41:53]
Isabel Brown
You said earlier that it was kind of a wake up call for all of us who've been involved in this political world, that these ideas that we are standing for aren't just dangerous, they can be deadly. And for those of us that have been working in Charlie's orbit for years and years, I think we knew this was a possibility, but we never wanted to acknowledge that it was a legitimate possibility until it now happened. But we're also watching this revival of courage and people saying, I don't care what the consequences are. The we are Charlie Kirk movement. We are all Charlie Kirk now. How does that feel for you? Knowing that we are outspoken, we are out there in the public eye, we're unapologetic about our values, and what message can we send to those who want to silence us by any means necessary?
- [42:35]
John Rich
I mean, I had a death threat three days ago, and they referenced Charlie Kirk's name and the threat. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of us have these stories now. If you're a, a outspoken conservative, you know, the New Testament says, put on the whole Armor of God. Well, that's the spiritual armor for the spiritual battle. But if you go look at King David, he prayed that he would stay, that God would keep him safe, but he also carried a bow and a sword. You know, he physically kept himself safe. My advice to people out there is, is keep your eyes peeled. Because when Charlie Kirk died, righteous people, people began pursuing righteousness at light speed and wicked people began pursuing wickedness at light speed. They both happened at the same time. It says also in the New Testament, it says the word of God is like, is sharper than any two edged sword, dividing even between the spirit and the soul. That's how sharp the true truth is. And when that truth came down that day, when we saw what happened that day, it did divide. And you are going to see more of that. You're going to see wicked people become more wicked and righteous people become more righteous. And to me, this is when you talk about the cultural shift that is now happening, it's in both directions simultaneously. You know, you're supposed to pray for your enemies, pray that they'll turn, pray that they'll repent before they die. And we should pray for them because I think a lot of them can come around at some point and at the same time, be very careful and keep your eyes and ears open.
- [44:06]
Isabel Brown
Yeah. You know, Erica really shocked the world in that regard as well during the memorial service in publicly forgiving the man who killed him, her husband. A lot of people weren't bought into that. They said, but I'm angry. I want to hold on to my anger. We should be angry, and of course we should be. You wouldn't be a human being if you weren't angry about what happened to Charlie. But to see her Christian faith and her steadfast fortitude and the Holy Spirit prevail in the face of what obviously could be the easiest catalyst into more hatred, I think really inspired a lot of people. So how can we continue walking in that vein as well and try to make this world more like the next one as the wicked get even more weak?
- [44:43]
John Rich
Wicked, you know, everything we need to know about how we're supposed to live is written in the book. You can't trust your own opinion. You can't trust the opinion of people you see on TV or hear on the radio. You can't fully trust any human being's opinion or advice. What's written in the book was written there on purpose. It is all right there in plain English, and you can read it and apply it to yourself as you've Seen lots of people saying, I bought my first Bible today. Or I pulled the Bible down off the shelf for the first time in 10 years today and started reading it. I've had lots of friends that have. That have actually become Christians, gave their life to Jesus in the past month that I never thought in a million years would happen. And they asked me, what should I read? What's the first thing I should read? I said, well, everything Paul wrote in the New Testament were basically letters to brand new churches. You know, there is a parallel, I think, that runs with, With. With Charlie Kirk and with Stephen in the New Testament. So Stephen was a young man, he was going town to town. He was preaching the gospel, and he got targeted by the Romans, and they didn't want him talking about that. He was converting thousands and thousands of people. And they stoned Stephen to death. It says before the first stone hit him, though, he looked up and said, God, please receive my spirit. Said he looked up and he saw Jesus Christ stand up at the throne next to. Next to the Father and received Stephen's spirit. And he fell asleep before the first rock hit him. And right after that is when you saw the explosion of Christianity. That's when you saw Corinth and Ephesus and Thessalonica and Philippi. All these churches started. Started exploding. And then Paul, Saul becomes Paul on the road to Damascus. And you saw that type of explosion in Christianity. I really do think there is a parallel to that. We don't get to live and die based on our own calendar. If we did, we'd all live to be 150. You know, God makes his moves when he makes them for specific reasons. And the tidal wave we're seeing right now back towards him is unbelievable.
- [46:39]
Isabel Brown
You know, I never knew this, or I guess I perhaps knew it, but I didn't put it together in my own head that at the memorial when Benny Johnson was Speaking, he referenced St. Stephen, and Stephen was the same age as Charlie was when he became the first martyr of the church. And I totally agree. That parallel is astounding. And I think for those of us that knew and loved Charlie, we're devastated, we're heartbroken. It is very difficult to see the greater purpose in all of this. But at the same time, we are all starting to see the greater purpose in. Because look at the response that has happened. This is so much bigger than a conservative movement or electing the right person to the presidency or reviving conservative political principles. This is bringing millions of people to Christianity in a way I don't think we've ever seen in my lifetime.
- [47:22]
John Rich
Well, over a hundred million people saw an altar call. Over 100 million people. So the biggest ones that ever existed prior to that happening would have been, like, Billy Graham. People like that. Billy Graham in South Korea had like 2 million people at one point. Point. How about 100 plus million? I don't even know the number. Got to hear an actual sermon and give an actual altar call to over 100 million people. How many lifetimes would Charlie have had to have lived to get 100 million people to hear an altar call?
- [47:51]
Isabel Brown
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's crazy to think in our last few minutes together, before I get way too choked up, do you have a message for other people in public eye and the people who follow all of the people in the public eye of how we can live like Charlie Kirk? How can we be courageous and bold? How can we go out of our way to be unapologetic about the things that we believe in and be willing to lay our life down if that's the cost?
- [48:13]
John Rich
Ultimately, people need to stop concerning themselves with success, and they need to start concerning themselves with significance. There is a difference, there is a distinction between success and significance. Don't live to be successful. Live to be significant. Say things that are significant. Do things that are significant. Put things into motion that will outlive you. That way down the road, when you're no longer here, whether you die at 31 or 110, somebody somewhere gets to hear or see you, do or say something that impacts them long after you're gone. I think a lot of. A lot of people in my line of work or that are. That are famous people are constantly focused on success, success, success. How many viewers can I get? How many clicks can I get? How much money can I make? Whatever it might be, climbing the line ladder, that's fine. It's okay to go be successful. But your focus should be significance in your music, in your art, and what you say in your speech. In shows like this, say things that will outlast you. That would be my advice.
- [49:18]
Isabel Brown
I love that advice so much, and I hope it resonates with a whole lot of people watching today. John, thank you so much for your courage for a very long time, that has always been inspiring other people. But your renewed commitment to that significance in the wake of Charlie no longer being with us, we're so grateful you were here to celebrate his birthday with us.
- [49:34]
John Rich
Thanks for me having. Having me.
- [49:39]
Isabel Brown
Abe Parker, the man who started this entire idea behind a musical tribute episode for Charlie, welcome to the Daily Wire. Welcome to Nashville and the show. We are so excited to have you here today.
- [49:51]
Abe Parker
Thank you. Yeah, it's awesome to be here.
- [49:52]
Isabel Brown
Absolutely. So this all got started when we were circulating your amazing new song that you wrote in tribute to Charlie Kirk the last few days, when a gal who's on our PR team named Gloria, she's the guest goat, had the idea of putting together a tribute to Charlie from a musical perspective, because we've just been so blown away at the outpouring of support and love and inspiration coming from musicians and songwriters like yourself. Far more that transcends than the political world that. You know. We've been working with Charlie for years and years. We all know him, we all have worked with him. We can all post video montages of him. But there's something about music that really speaks to the soul and transforms how people experience emotion, how we connect with other human beings, and how we bring these values forward into the future. So let's just start with asking what Charlie meant to you and why you felt so compelled to write this beautiful song.
- [50:44]
Abe Parker
Yeah, I mean, I. I'd been following Charlie for years, you know, watching a lot of his video and a lot of his content. Yeah, I think the song for me was. It was really just kind of like a response to how I felt like things were in society. Like, I was. I was wrecked and devastated when I found out what happened. And I think the biggest reason, though, that I wrote this song was actually right after just seeing people's response, just going on social media and seeing people, like, cheering and celebrating and, like, making TikTok dances to this guy that just got assassinated. And I'm like, I just don't want to live in a world like that. And that was the reason I wrote the song. I. To be honest, I don't do a lot of political stuff. I don't do a lot of even Christian stuff in most of my music. I am a Christian, but. But, yeah, I just felt like it's something that needed to be done. And, yeah, like, it was just like, I just don't want to be, I don't know, in a place where, like, people can celebrate something like that and. And not have consequences, you know?
- [51:58]
Isabel Brown
Yeah, absolutely. And that certainly was still. Is one of the bigger shocks, I think, to those of us that have been so impacted by this is to see John Rich put this really well earlier. The righteous becoming even more righteous, but the wicked becoming even more wicked in the aftermath of this, in the last few weeks, and to see People openly celebrating the death and destruction of a man whose really only crime was to want to have conversations with people he disagreed with was really jarring. If anything, I think I almost expected the music community to respond in that way. Not with honoring Charlie and being so outspoken and supportive of him and his legacy. And you mentioned you don't really do much political or religious oriented music. I think most people don't. It's just not what's interesting in the music industry. But I'm wondering if we can expect to see more of this type of content in the future, especially from people who are a little bit more indie or songwriting oriented, like yourself.
- [52:53]
Abe Parker
Yeah, I mean, I hope so. Like, I really do hope that. It does seem like you said in the music industry as far as anything that's not super, super left or super on that area, like, there's nobody that's talking about anything. There's maybe like three artists that come to mind, and that's kind of it. You know, it's like. I think for starters, that's one thing that Charlie really meant a lot to me was that he was a voice for people that didn't know how to speak up for themselves. And I feel like in the music world there's like no voice for people who have those beliefs. And it's not like there's just a slim amount of people that have those beliefs. There's a lot of people that believe the way that Charlie did, believe the way that I do, and there's just nothing that represents them. You know, there's no one that speaks up for. And so I hope so. I hope there's. I hope that the music industry can find a way to do that. To speak the truth, but then also to speak the truth in love. I think that's what I really want to do. And if I do, you know, go into more of that kind of stuff, then that's what I'd love to do, is like, you have to be honest and you have to speak up, but you also have to be, like, loving. And that's the hard part.
- [54:07]
Isabel Brown
You know, it's always the hard part. Especially the more divided and angry everything in our society tells us to get. Charlie had a really unique knack of encouraging people to use their voice in unexpected ways. And I certainly owe my career to that. I think a lot of people across our country do. And I'm starting to see this movement in the music industry to using your voice in a more authentic way, not what your record label is telling you to say, not what the Industry is pressuring you to say or what you think might perform well based on the way things have always been done. But especially thanks to the dawn of TikTok, like real people making great music and really disrupting and transforming the industry industry from an independent creator perspective from music. That certainly is a bit of your story and I know with some of your music lately has absolutely exploded on TikTok and inspired people in ways that you couldn't necessarily reach as big of an audience from in listening to songs on the radio or relying on record label distribution the way things have been done in the past. How do you see more independent voices and free expression continuing to shake up the music industry industry big time?
- [55:10]
Abe Parker
I mean it's like it's totally, it's totally different now. I mean I definitely owe my career to tick tock. I owe my career to not just tick tock but also reels like the whole new social platform. I just see a lot of people that, you know, if you're willing to put in the work and you know, make, make the content that everybody hates making, you know, like to get up and make the cringy content, like if you're willing to work hard, you can make a career for yourself. And yeah, especially what you said as far as with the record labels, like there's just like a 180 at least in the past, like three or four years where labels are starting to see like hey, like, like we, we aren't as needed as we used to be, you know. And so I do have to shout out my label with this song too. I do remember writing the song and teasing it and being pretty certain that my label wasn't going to let me drop it. I was fairly certain they probably wouldn't and they've been supportive this whole time. They're not a Christian label. They're not. I would imagine a lot of people on my team probably don't have the same beliefs that I do, don't feel the same way, but they've been supportive and that has been really, really awesome and just really encouraging that there are people on board, both sides of the aisle that are willing to, I don't know, do good work.
- [56:32]
Isabel Brown
It's a turning point, for lack of a better term in our country to let people come back together again and find our common shared humanity. I hate that something like this had to happen in order for so many people to wake up to that. But I think those of us who are believers and those of us who can see God working all things together for good in many ways, we are kind of starting to see the bigger plan in all of this with the impact people have had. And so much of that boils down to love and loving other people, which is what you're saying song how to Love is all about. So tell us what inspired you to write this specific song and where some of these lyrics came from.
- [57:07]
Abe Parker
Yeah, I mean, the song came. Well, let's see. The verse in the chorus came in about 30 minutes. So when I first heard the news, I. To be honest, I didn't. I wasn't planning on releasing a song. I didn't want to write a song about it simply because, I don't know, sometimes it just feels hard to justify. It feels like you, you're. You're gaining momentum on the back of something terrible. And so I didn't want to do something at first. And to be honest, I probably wouldn't have if it wasn't for seeing people celebrate, like seeing people celebrate what happened. That for me was the moment was like, okay, I gotta, I gotta do something, like for my sake. But then also for like my, my, my son's sake. Like I don't want him to grow up in a world where like he can't, he has to. Like political assassination is okay, you know, Like, I don't want that. I don't think anybody does if they really look deep. But yeah, and that was a moment that I was like, okay, I gotta do something. Wrote the verse, the chorus, teased it and did really well. And then I spent probably like two entire days trying to write the second verse on the chorus just. Cause I wanted it to, to like mean something, you know.
- [58:22]
Isabel Brown
Yeah.
- [58:22]
Abe Parker
And so that's kind of how it came about. You know, I just filmed a TikTok video, something super simple, just sitting in front of the TV with the lyrics going over top. And that's kind of. I think that's, that's what people needed to hear.
- [58:37]
Isabel Brown
So I will be honest, I've only been able to listen to your song three or four times without bawling my eyes out. Because I think of Charlie with every word that you're singing. And the part that really impacts me and I think has shaken a lot of people in a powerful way. Has been your choice to include Charlie's voice in the song. Was that an intentional choice? Did it come out later that you wanted to do that? Why is that part of the exact song?
- [58:59]
Abe Parker
Yeah, I mean, that was kind of a last minute thing. I wrote the second verse and the second half of the second verse really Talks about how, like, it talks about how people are laughing at this. But then I kind of contrast that by saying, like, that's not funny. But it is funny how, you know, when you try to. Like, the blackest night brings out the sunlight's glow. And, like, when you try to silence someone, you do only make it grow, you know? And then I was like, you know, I just feel like it would be really cool to just give a little hat tip to him. And, yeah, so I just put that in, like, kind of little bridge section action. And it means a lot to me. And I know for the people that were supportive of him, it means a lot to them, too. That's one of the moments that people have been posting about a lot. It's like how they just break down in that area. And I do, too.
- [59:51]
Isabel Brown
We all do. For those that have not had a chance yet to hear your song, how to Love, we are incredibly excited that you are going to play us a rendition of it today on the show. So let's take it away.
- [60:02]
Abe Parker
Do it.
- [60:15]
Abe Parker (singing)
I saw someone laughing at a man who lost his life and left behind Two toddlers and a newly widowed wife I think it's time we take it down deeper look inside and ask who are we and what am I? I watch the news machine spin up again and make us all believe that he deserved what came to him Am I the only one who's crawling in my skin Half terrified of what's inside? So what kind of world do we want? What kind of world are we in? Good God, where did we go wrong? How do we so quickly forget how to love how to love? How do we forget how to love? How to love how do we get so brainwashed to believe that it's okay to end a heartbeat if they disagree? Cheering in the face of broken people while they grieve oh, I don't know it's not a joke but it's funny how by silence and a voice you make and it's funny how the blackest night Brings out the sunlight's glow and it's funny how the devil's been trying the same thing since 2000 years ago so what kind of world do we want? What kind of world are we in? Good guy with till we go wrong how do we so quickly forget how to love how to love how do we forget how to love? How to love how do we forget how to love?
- [62:26]
Isabel Brown
How to love Abe, I'm so, so moved by the lyrics that you wrote there. In speaking to all of our hearts and this opportunity not just to acknowledge that what happened was so shocking, so jarring and so evil, but also that there's so much evil within all of us that we've bought into this division, this hatred, this almost impassable divide between all people in our society because of the news machine, because of the algorithms on social media, or just the political data divide. What does it mean to you for us to move beyond this? How do we look in the mirror? How do we prevent a society like this for our kids? I know you're a relatively new dad. Your son's almost 2, and I have a beautiful new daughter just offset. Hopefully it's not going to start crying. But what. What can we do to look in the mirror as all of us, to participate in changing our society for the better?
- [63:29]
Abe Parker
Yeah, I mean, as if I have the answers. I think the biggest thing thing, I think on one side of the aisle, I think, is to. As if you view yourself as a conservative or some. Someone on that side. I think the important thing is a. To like we talked about, speak the truth. Like, there's just a lot of people, myself included, that it's. That are scared to speak up and to say what they believe and what they feel. And so that's the first thing. Speak the truth, but then also speak the truth and let love. Like we talked about before. I do a lot of, you know, a lot of my music has been for people that have maybe different political views than I do. And I do have to say, like, probably most those people, like, almost everybody I meet, like, they disagree with me. I think, you know, maybe they have the wrong opinion on something, but they really do care for people. Like people of the left on that side. Side. They really do care and they have like, empathy, you know, for people. I think, unfortunately, that's been just weaponized. You know, like, people have just kind of taken advantage of the empathy and. Yeah. And then, I mean, I think the final thing, if anybody's listening, I mean, the. The ultimate answer is it's just Jesus, like, looking into. I mean, just when you know that the Creator of the universe loves you, you know, and like, cares enough for you that he's willing to die for you, that changes everything, you know, and it. You're. You're able to deal with anybody or anything. I think the. The response from Charlie's family and from like, the people in that whole realm was just proof of that. Like, you know, all the vigils and the. The prayers and the gathering they had in Arizona, like, you know, their. There wasn't buildings being burned down and there weren't riots. And like, Like, I think that is such a great testimony. And like, what you said too, like, like how it just made people that were already chasing goodness even gooder, you know, even better. And, yeah, I think if we could all just learn how to love, that would be great.
- [65:44]
Isabel Brown
In our last couple of minutes in our episode honoring Charlie on his birthday today, do you have a message for people watching today on what it means to live like Charlie Kirk and how we all can pick up that microphone in whatever way we can? Whether you have a podcast, you're a musician, or you're just somebody living their day to day life.
- [66:01]
Abe Parker
Yeah, be brave. I think that's the biggest thing. That's the biggest thing I have been confronted with since hearing the news. Like, there's just a lot of things that I'm just scared of feedback, you know, I'm scared of losing followers. Um, and on someone on the other side, after losing a lot of followers, it's not that scary. You know, it's like, okay, so what? It's just a number on a screen. Like, I think being brave is something that I want to get better at, and I. I really do credit that to Charlie and his family. I think that's something that I think we all could do more of. And then, just like I said before, be more loving and speak the truth, but speak it in love.
- [66:44]
Isabel Brown
Abe, thank you for teaching us how to love one rendition of your song at a time and for your bravery and your courage. Truly, the way that you are honoring Charlie's life is so beautiful to behold. And I think you inspired a whole lot more people than you know in releasing this song of other musicians too, to write songs of their own. So I cannot wait to see the bravery that comes out of that in the music industry.
- [67:05]
Abe Parker
Thank you. Thanks for having me on course.
- [67:11]
Isabel Brown
We are so excited to be joined by AN Wilson, an amazing Christian musician who I have been following for a very long time. So, so excited for you to join us today, Anne, and to pay special tribute to Charlie on what would have been his 32nd birthday. You came to mind as someone we wanted to include in the episode today with what started as an Instagram post from you honoring Charlie's life and legacy. And I was really moved by your caption on Instagram calling for more Christians to live boldly as this voice of a generation, our generation, Charlie has been taken from us so prematurely. What does that mean to you and what are you seeing now in the wake of his death?
- [67:49]
Ann Wilson
You know, it was devastated to hear of his passing as we all were. And as someone who's 23 years old in the heart of Gen Z, he was such an inspiration for being bold in your faith and standing for Jesus. Jesus. And last year, I actually put out an album called Rebel, and this album was all about that. It was. It was literally like what it means to be a Christian in today's world is to go against the grain. And when you are a believer, it makes you stand out and it sets you apart, but it also makes you hated by the world. And so I put out that album, and then I ended up writing a song called Stand as we were in the election season last year. Just being really bold in the things that I was believing in, calling my generation to vote and. And especially the Christians to stand for Trump for, for what he stood for. And so I think leading into all of that, Charlie was a huge inspiration for my generation last year in. In leading into that election season and then through his passing. I have seen such a change, even in my close friends, even in people that I have walked through life with over the last few years. Just, they are more on fire for going and telling the world about Jesus than they ever have been. And it's such an inspiring thing to see because as a Christian artist, I'm standing on these stages, I'm traveling the country, I'm. I'm, you know, preaching the gospel. It shows there's only so much that I can do. And so to be able to, like, see these people fired up now and on fire for Jesus and wanting to be bold in their faith, it's such an encouraging thing and it's so inspiring for me to see. And just, I feel like there's just so much hope now for our generation and what can come out of it. And truly the revival that I feel like is taking place right now in.
- [69:27]
Isabel Brown
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- [71:39]
Ann Wilson
I am. It has been really powerful to see. I think, you know, being in the Christian music industry, everyone is a believer, but it's also a business. And so things can get lost in translation. Things can kind of be pushed aside. And I think the like, I guess that fire for Jesus can dwindle down in, in people and people can be less bold in their conversations about faith or, you know, whether it's in. In the songwriting or the way that they're doing a show, their faith can just get dwindled down. And so since his passing, there has been a shift for sure, in the Christian music industry. People just being so much more open about it. Before he passed, it was, it was. There was a movement that started, I would say, at the Beginning of this year, year in our industry, where you were finding artists just being way more bold about what they believed in. And then through his passing, it has been like, night and day different to see, which is. It's so. It's such a bittersweet thing, you know, and my brother passed away in 2017, and through the loss of him, it's like when you go through hard things in life, there's always those good things out of that, and that's such a sweet thing. Like, the Lord will take a tragedy and turn it into something beautiful, but the other side is the tragedy that took place. And so it's been so hard to wrestle for, you know, for all of us with that. But just thinking through it, it's just been so devastating to think that it. It's this situation that has led to this revival, like, this change of hearts.
- [73:02]
Isabel Brown
I love what you're saying about the working all things together for good that God always does. Even in the midst of what feels to us like the biggest tragedy and a hole that we could never dig ourselves out of. You know, we're all truly, really heartbroken about the loss of our friend. It feels like there's this hole that we will never be able to fill in the conservative movement in our country, in our generation. I mean, you said it perfectly in your Instagram caption. Charlie was the voice for Gen Z. He set the moral tone and the expectation for the things that we should hold as our values nationally as young people. And yet there is this opportunity for us to take stock in the leadership component of this and where we all can continue to pick up the microphone, how we can pitch in to work all things together for good, as God is as well. You mentioned you lost your brother in 2017 at a very young. And I'm curious to get your take on how you think this is impacting Charlie's family and what specifically about his family's response has inspired you and continues to inspire the nation. In the last month, I'll tell you.
- [74:04]
Ann Wilson
The day after he passed, I was just. I was really taking it hard. I mean, I've never had the chance to meet Charlie, but I was so inspired by who he was and what he stood for. And I was outside on my front porch, and I. I was just so depressed and so sad. And I called my mom, and my mom was hysterical, just crying, like, her eyes out. And she was like, anna, this reminds me so much of Jacob's loss. And the reason why is because when anyone dies so prematurely, it almost triggers us because We've been through it. And, like, the first thought I had, the second I found out he passed was his precious wife. Like, the first thought I had was what she's going to have to go through, what his little kids are going to have to walk through, that all, you know, all the people that lost him, the friends, the family, the people that looked up to him. It's so different when your own, like, flesh and blood family loses someone. And the devastation that happens and the. The feeling of like, literally not being able to take your next breath. And watching her get up on that stage at his memorial and say that she forgave the person that took his life was so moving for me because my brother was in a car accident. It was. It was not his fault. He was killed by someone else. And that person walked away with, with no scratches or anything. And I've never openly said that, but. And talked about the details of the accident, but that was something that me and my family had that moment too, of saying, we forgive that person. Like, we forgive him. We're going to choose to allow Jesus to heal our hearts, and we're going to walk away knowing that maybe God can use this to touch that person's heart and, and have an encounter with him through that. And so that's the first thing I thought of, was Erica and her heart and what she's going through and the pain that she's feeling. And then just like, what. It's not just a, like, memorial. And then you move on. It's like for the rest of her life on this side of heaven, she will be grieving him and missing him and mourning the loss of him. And so I think my focus has. Has been on that. I think loss affects a family in such a deep way. There's no way to describe it if you haven't been through it before, but it is. It is so, so devastating. And the only fix to it is Jesus. Like, he is the only one that can come in and heal your heart, give you peace, give you comfort. And I watched that firsthand when my brother passed away of just. It felt like the Lord himself was wrapping his arms around me and my family, walking us through that time. And it's been over eight years now, and we feel like we're healed, but we're also grieving every day still. There's not a day that goes by we don't think about Jacob or a day that goes by that we don't miss him. And so I think this will always be something that I will be praying for is his specific family. You know, that's something that they will. They will never forget him. We'll ne. We all will never forget him, but especially them. And just that constant reminder that they don't have him a part of their lives now.
- [76:54]
Abe Parker
Yeah.
- [76:55]
Ann Wilson
And so I think it's just. It's such a devastating part of life. But Jesus is the only one that, that can fix it. And I think watching her faith through that has been really inspiring.
- [77:03]
Isabel Brown
Yeah. That moment of forgiveness. Forgiveness of the deep, deep breath she took and how she couldn't even make eye contact with the audience. She just fixed her eyes vertically directly on heaven and on God to say, I forgive him. And I can only imagine the anger and the frustration and the mixed conflicted feelings that she was dealing with inside as she was saying that. But it almost was this exhaled deep breath of fresh air after she said it. And you saw a change in how she was able to get through the rest of the speech after she said it versus before, which in the room, I can tell you, you could hear a pin drop in an audience of 73,000 people. Everyone was holding their breath as she said that. And to see the response on social media in the aftermath of that, of how many other people are now experiencing forgiveness for the first time has been so humbling. I remember seeing Tim Allen tweet about how for the first time in his, his entire life, he forgave the man who killed his father when he was a teenager because he was inspired by Erica and countless other tiktoks saying essentially the same thing. My family member was killed by a drunk driver. This person I knew was murdered. And I'm publicly forgiving that person. So I think it's a really interesting time for Christians to wrestle with and re reconcile our beliefs in forgiveness. What are your thoughts on how we've failed to live up to that in the past, especially in American Christianity, and how this might be an opportunity. Opportunity for a turning point, for lack of a better term, for us to really, truly walk in all of the teachings of Christ, including to forgive those who persecute against us and to lean more into our faith now that more than ever.
- [78:37]
Ann Wilson
Yeah, I think that forgiveness is not talked about near enough in the church as it should be, but it is such a powerful thing in it. You're so right on that, like, breath of fresh air almost that it felt like kind of came over her because it's freeing when you forgive someone, it frees you. And it's this weird concept that, that I think we don't fully understand until we go through something like that where we have to fully forgive someone and let go and say, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let go of all these feelings I have about them and I'm gonna choose to forgive them and what they did that they could have easily not done. And I think that that is so much the heart of Jesus, though, is forgiveness and how he was on the cross, giving up his life for all of us, knowing all the things that we were gonna do, all the sins that we were going to commit, all the ways in which we were going to completely just disregard our faith or, you know, blatantly sin and choose sin time and time again. He gave his life for us and that we're forgiven through him. Like, it just. That is the example and model for how we should be as Christians. But I do think that the social media response from that moment, I think has forever changed our country. I think in, in that specific topic of forgiveness, I think that there are so many people that I've heard stories like that as well, of personal people just saying, like, I cannot believe that she forgave him. That makes me want to go forgive this person. And I think that it's so important as Christians to, like you said, follow every single thing that we're taught to do that Jesus says, but specifically forgiveness. Jesus talks about the importance of forgiveness, forgiveness and how much. So like you forgiving someone is such.
- [80:17]
Isabel Brown
It.
- [80:17]
Ann Wilson
It changes your heart too. It's not just you letting go of the resentment that you have towards that person or the anger, but it's also changing your heart too. And I think that that's a beautiful thing, especially for my generation. My generation is very broken and very lost. And so to have someone like her stand up and say to forgive, I think that that's going to change everything for my generation.
- [80:39]
Isabel Brown
You know, it was so fun being one of the only Gen zers at the time. Early on when I was hired by turning to working for Charlie on the media side because Charlie, it's no secret, was a millennial and he was confused on how to figure out Gen Z for a really long time. For a while I think he totally bought into some of the you're all woke and you all have purple hair and 37 genders concept. But he came to have so much respect for young people today, seeing the totally upside down, broken world that we grew up in and having to scrappily fight our way through that to eventually, shockingly come out on the other side as we're Growing up to want to get married and want to have children and want a deep, deep, substantive faith based in tradition that our culture really hasn't offered us. There is this revival, not just religiously, but of traditional cultural values from a secular perspective as well, that's largely being driven by young people. And I think Charlie really was the intellectual and moral leader encouraging us to do that day in and day out on TikTok, on his show show, on all of the speeches that he did on college campuses. How do you feel about the future of Gen Z? Knowing the impact that Charlie had and seeing this faith revival come out of this?
- [81:48]
Ann Wilson
I feel so hopeful. The day after the memorial, I remember I called my mom. My mom's always the one I go to just to really, like, unload about all these things. And I remember calling her and I remember crying, like, weeping, and I just said, mom, I feel like there is so much hope for our generation now. I truly do. And, um, I think what you said about just the legacy he left, but going back to the traditional values that he talked about and set, like, even those conversations have come up. Not just the Christian religious side of things, but those conversations of, I can't believe how much he stood for this or how he stood for life. And all the things that he stood for are such important things for our generation that we desperately need. And so I think that he. I think it's changed our generation for the better in every single way. And I'm hopeful. I'm. I'm so hopeful for my generation being the one that is going to stand for Jesus, the one that's going to fight and be bold in our faith and have marriages that last a lifetime and have a family and build these things that are lasting and important. And he was just such an inspiration for us in that. And I'm just so grateful for that and all that he did for us that we can now walk away with and have and to help guide and lead us, because there was no one else doing that for us, and he was the only one. And so my hope, and even just in my own music, through his loss, it's inspired me to be even more bold than I ever have before to speak out on things that I was maybe too afraid to speak out about. Now it's like, it's. Now is the time, like, no more shying away from anything. Now is the time to be bold for Jesus and to stand firm in your faith. And I really believe that my generation is. Is going to end up being okay. And we're going to work out and, and I think that there's a lot of hope for it now.
- [83:32]
Isabel Brown
The kids are all right, as they say. You know, I'm really struck by what you said because Charlie being one of the only loud, loud voices speaking into the heart of Gen Z for a long time was different. It was radically countercultural. Even in the conservative young political movement that was largely geared towards young people, the, the in vogue thing to say was that, oh, young people are so lost, they're so woke. They've lost their way. They don't understand who they are, they don't have a sense of identity. We'll get them when they grow up eventually, like they'll get a little bit older, they'll get a little wiser, and eventually they'll come around to see our point of view. But Charlie had this sense of urgency and this sense of understanding that we don't have the luxury of time to wait on an entire generation to all the way grow up and to see the light of day in a broken culture for eventually them to change their minds. He instead was encouraging and inspiring and speaking life into a young, broken, broken generation in the midst of our brokenness. That's been sitting with me a lot in the last few weeks because I think especially as quite platformed Christians in our society, I don't see a lot of speaking life into young people. I see a lot of complaining about the status of culture. I see a lot of finger pointing the blame of how we got here and who is responsible for all of this evil that has come to the surface. But very few people are willing to say, say you're worthy of more. You're created in the image of God. Let's go fight for these things so that we can be a genuinely happy and joyful and rooted in purpose society. How do you think more Christians with platforms, whether it be musically or as podcast hosts or social media influencers, can take a page out of Charlie's playbook there?
- [85:06]
Ann Wilson
Yeah, I think that there's so, you know, truly the things that you say hold so much value. And I don't think that sometimes that we realize, myself included, that what we say on social media, the things that we talk about on stage, can truly have an impact on someone's life. And one of my favorite things that I've gotten to be a part of is a ministry I have called Hail Nation, which is speaking specifically to young girls and their identity in Christ. Because I know that as these little girls started to come to my concerts and listen to my music, it was like an immediate realization for me that I could potentially be their role model. I could potentially be a woman of God that they look up to and look to for answers, for questions, or just inspiration on what it's like to be a woman of God. And so I. I take that very serious. And I've really started this journey of how can I encourage these young girls and their identity in Christ, reminding them of who they are in Jesus. And so I think that. I do think that people in the spotlight that have a voice and have a say, whether it's in music or podcasts or whatever it is, need to be so aware of that, that when they're speaking and putting anything out to the world, that you never know who's going to be watching that or how they're going to receive it or how they're going to need that in that moment. But that encouragement is the key for. For our generation. I was telling my mom this, like, as someone who's right in the heart of Gen Z, 23 years old, like, the way that I feel like, at least from me and my friends and the people I'm around, the, I. I truly think encouragement is what betters us. And I think that we're a generation that needs someone like Charlie to stand up and say, this is what you should do. Almost kind of modeling it out of this is what your life should be like. And, and encouraging us in that, and. And not putting us down and not, you know, putting us to the side or disregarding us, but lifting us up and encouraging us. And so I think that everyone could do a better job of that. You know, like you said, the complaints or the pointing fingers or just the drama that can come from this whole situation. I think it's so important to put all that aside and to instead focus on encouraging this generation, loving on them and speaking truth into them. That's ultimately what my generation needs more than anything, especially with social media and all that we have faced in this generation compared to generations before us. We need to know our identity, and we need to know that it is in Jesus and that it is rooted in him and that that's where our worth comes from. And so I think there's such an importance to. To just leading with that. Whatever, you know, your outlet is, whatever your voice is, whether it's on a podcast, music, whatever it is, just having encouragement at the forefront of that and then leading with. With truth and how these kids and this generation can find their worth in Jesus.
- [87:41]
Isabel Brown
I'm so excited for your album to Drop on Friday. And truly, thank you so much for your courage and using your platform to honor Charlie. I cannot wait to see how you continue to be a rebel in all of your music moving forward and just so honored that you took the time to be here today.
- [87:55]
Ann Wilson
Thank you so much for having me.
- [87:57]
Isabel Brown
I am so unbelievably, deeply grateful to every single one of the artists who joined us today on the show. And believe it or not, there were many, many more who wanted to be here and who have written special songs all about Charlie and the impact that he has made. They just weren't able to make it on such short notice. So to everyone who is using their musical talent given to you by God to honor the life and legacy of this once in a generation man, thank you from all of our hearts and to everyone looking to live more courageously and more boldly, you have the perfect examples in the people that joined us today on the show on exactly how to do that tomorrow, tomorrow and today, let's all choose to live like Charlie Kirk. To boldly speak the truth, to be courageous in our values, and to never back down or surrender, even in the face of evil and hatred. Happy birthday, Charlie. We love you and we miss you and we can't wait to see you again someday.
- [89:03]
Matthew West
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- [89:08]
John Rich
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- [89:15]
Isabel Brown
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [89:18]
Cole Swindell
Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera.
- [89:22]
John Rich
They see us.
- [89:22]
Matthew West
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- [89:26]
John Rich
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- [89:27]
Matthew West
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