How A Former White Nationalist Found Jesus

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Isabel Brown Show

Episode: “How A Former White Nationalist Found Jesus”
Host: Isabel Brown (The Daily Wire)
Guest: Peter Saitanovich
Date: March 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deeply personal and timely conversation between host Isabel Brown and guest Peter Saitanovich, who rose to notoriety after being photographed at the 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville as a self-described “angry torch guy.” Peter opens up about his journey from involvement in white nationalist politics to finding faith, community, and redemption in the Catholic Church. The dialogue explores what drives young men toward radical movements, the role of faith in healing, the challenges of public repentance, and how society can foster true reconciliation and community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Peter’s Background and Journey to Faith

• Viral Infamy: Peter recounts being photographed at Unite the Right as an early-20s college student, which turned him into a “face” of the alt-right movement and forever changed his life ([03:41]).
• Search for Justice & Community: Raised in working-class rural Nevada, Peter sought justice for the suffering around him but lacked the language or framework to explain what was wrong. He experimented with various political ideologies before being drawn to the “identitarian” movement, which promised solidarity but slid into racial supremacy ([07:46]).
• Moment of Reckoning: At the Charlottesville rally, during an especially chaotic moment, Peter recalls, “Kind of ironic as I was actually being carried away by a Klansman. Being carried away by a Klansman, you kind of realize like you've made a mistake in life, gotta go reevaluate a bit.” ([00:30], [03:41])
• Finding Faith: Ostracized and isolated, Peter began to attend Catholic mass—first out of curiosity, then conviction. The Church became the first environment where he felt genuinely welcomed and forgiven, starting him on a path to conversion and ultimately being confirmed in the Catholic faith in 2018 ([03:41]–[07:00]).

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2. Why Young Men Are Drawn to Extremism

• Sense of Injustice & Frustration: Peter and Isabel discuss how modern young men experience profound frustration, social atomization, and a sense of abandonment by mainstream society, leaving them vulnerable to predatory ideologies that channel anger into racial or identitarian politics ([07:00], [07:46], [15:10]).
• Online Radicalization: Peter explains the appeal of YouTube personalities and online communities in shaping his worldviews and how dissatisfaction with “market individualism” among conservatives left a void exploited by the alt-right ([07:46]–[10:51]).
• Real Community vs. False Solidarity: The identitarian movement's “community” was shallow, rooted in exclusion and hate, rather than real belonging and love ([10:52]).

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3. The Internet’s Impact & The Challenge of Redemption

• Frozen in Time: Peter describes the burden of his internet infamy, noting, “The Internet creates two people almost…My experience at Charlottesville has frozen a version of me in time that when people read about me, they hate me from that version of me.” ([18:57])
• Dehumanization: Both speakers lament how the internet erases complexities, making public redemption and personal growth extremely difficult for individuals with public past misdeeds ([18:57]–[21:28]).
• Difficulty of Forgiveness: Peter on Christian forgiveness: “Forgiveness is…you have to forgive the unforgivable, otherwise it's not a forgiveness virtue at all. And I think that's what makes Christianity so unique, is it is a radical forgiveness.” ([23:35])
• Paralysis of Redemption: Isabel notes, “It's our inability to evolve beyond the snapshot we've created of that person and the almost caricature we're building around them versus who their actual identity happens to be.” ([25:44])

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4. Faith, Community, and Hope for a Religious Revival

• Christian Community as Healing: Peter believes the Christian faith is uniquely equipped to provide the genuine human connection and purpose young people seek, countering loneliness and atomization with communal love ([17:12]).
• Hopeful Trends: Both express cautious optimism about a religious revival among Gen Z, rooted in love rather than reactionary hate ([17:12]–[18:31]).

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5. The Role of the Church in Modern Society & Politics

• Church vs. Ideology: Isabel and Peter discuss the “Americanism” problem, where political or national identity is often prioritized above faith. They call for the Church to reassert its social teachings on issues of family, economy, and justice that transcend left/right binaries ([37:26]–[44:40]).
• Catholic Social Teaching: Peter observes that Catholic tradition offers robust critiques of both socialism and unbridled capitalism, urging a balance that enshrines human dignity, communal rights, and the legitimate place of private property, but always with a social conscience ([43:01]–[44:40]).

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6. Finding Common Ground and Rebuilding Social Trust

• Get Off the Internet, Love Your Neighbor: Repeatedly, Peter recommends “getting off the Internet” and building real-world community as the antidote to alienation and polarization: “Just talk to your neighbor. But that's true. We don't know our neighbors, don't know each other.…Invite one for dinner. I think I can do a lot more for building charity and love…” ([50:11])
• Reintegrating the ‘Other’: He calls for mundane but vital acts of neighborly kindness and community involvement as acts of justice ([46:20], [50:11]).
• Reconciling Cultural Pride vs. Supremacy: On celebrating heritage without supremacy, Peter urges, “Recognize that these traditions are legitimate and beautiful…being able to accept they're legitimate and real, I think will go a long way to alleviate…extremity.” ([51:47])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On his turning point:
  “Kind of ironic as I was actually being carried away by a Klansman. Being carried away by a Klansman, you kind of realize like you've made a mistake in life, gotta go reevaluate a bit.”
  —Peter Saitanovich ([00:30], [03:41])

• On the dangers of the Internet:
  “My experience at Charlottesville has frozen a version of me in time that when people read about me, they hate me from that version of me…The Internet is almost more real than reality.”
  —Peter Saitanovich ([18:57])

• On Christian forgiveness:
  “You have to forgive the unforgivable, otherwise it's not a forgiveness virtue at all. And I think that's kind of what makes Christianity so unique, is it is a radical forgiveness and a radical, you know, charity to love the unlovable.”
  —Peter Saitanovich ([23:35])

• On reconciling ideology and faith:
  “Is it something the President of the United States said, or my favorite podcaster, or is it a pope that I happen to love, or an early church father, or more importantly, just the magisterium of the church at large?”
  —Isabel Brown ([44:40])

• On rebuilding society:
  “If you're conservative, you're not Christian, then you could figure something out, I suppose. But if you are, the church ought to be the nexus of…everyday solidarity in the sense of caring for your neighbor.…Just work alongside your neighbor who may be a very progressive liberal and you can just say, you know, we can solve these every problem together.”
  —Peter Saitanovich ([46:20])

• Preserving cultural heritage without supremacy:
  “Recognize that these traditions are legitimate and beautiful and that…they have a place in our very diverse and beautiful world…If no one's answering me, then, you know, I will go to the more extreme.…people turn to racial solidarity because they feel attacked.”
  —Peter Saitanovich ([51:47], [52:21])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Peter’s Viral Past and Conversion Story: [03:41] – [07:00]
• What Drives Young Men to Extremism: [07:46] – [15:19]
• Online Radicalization and Identity: [10:51] – [13:03]
• Consequences of Internet Infamy: [18:57] – [21:28]
• Redemption & Christian Forgiveness: [23:35] – [25:44]
• Gen Z and the Loneliness Crisis: [16:20] – [17:12]
• The Church’s Role in Politics & Society: [37:26] – [44:40]
• Practical Community-Building Advice: [46:20] – [51:25]
• Preserving Heritage vs. Supremacy: [51:47] – [53:19]

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Conclusion

Through vulnerability, honest self-reflection, and theological insight, Peter Saitanovich’s story offers hope that personal and collective redemption are always possible—if we choose radical forgiveness, real human community, and a love-based faith over ideology. Isabel and Peter challenge listeners to get offline, know their neighbors, cherish cultural heritage without hatred, and make the Church (or similar communities of meaning and service) central to American renewal.

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For those struggling with loneliness, ideological seduction, or public shame, this episode is a powerful testament to the possibility of change, forgiveness, and the enduring need for real human connection.

Transcript

[Peter Saitanovich]

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[Peter Saitanovich]

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[Isabelle Brown]

In our quest to revive the good and the true and the Beautiful for America's 250th birthday. I came across a very fascinating article a couple of weeks ago written by a young man named Peter Saitanovich. And this, this article just completely grasped 100% of my attention. This was a young man who was photographed at the Unite the Right rally, an infamous event now in Charlottesville, Virginia, right at the height of the rise of the alt right and neo Nazi white supremacist movement in our country. This photograph instantly went viral. He somewhat became the face of the movement as a young, early 20 something here in our country. Just looking for a sense of community and belonging and seduced into this type of thinking. And now this picture has defined his entire identity. Identity despite the fact that he has dramatically changed his life, his beliefs and so much about his day to day existence. Peter is going to join us on the show today to talk about an article that he wrote describing this evolution in his life. Finding God, converting to faith in the Catholic Church and rediscovering our common shared humanity built in the divine image of God that we were all created in and has some really fascinating insights to share with us about how this is impacting American politics, how we relate to one another and where the church might need to take on a more offensive role in helping people understand our priorities, faith, family and freedom. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming this extraordinary young man to the show. I am so excited to be sitting down today with my new friend, Peter. Peter, thank you for being here and for lending your time this afternoon to having such an important conversation.

[Peter Saitanovich]

Thank you so much for having me on, Mr. Brown.

[Isabelle Brown]

So I found out about you and your story based on a piece that you wrote in Crisis magazine a couple of weeks ago and it totally stirred something within me. I was glued to the page. I was completely bought into your journey and just enthralled by how the Holy Spirit is working through you. But for those who might not be familiar with your story and your testimony of how you came to the faith, can you let us know what that journey was like?

[Peter Saitanovich]

So yes, my name is Peter. I'm most famous to being the unite the right angry torch guy from back in 2017. I attended when I was 20 years old, part of the identitarians and I joined going to my senior year of college, trying to enter politics more for the first time. I thought it was time to get involved and strive for what I what I thought was justice in an unjust world. I had been kind of exploring the faith very superficially that time attending church with friends but not not taking it seriously like you're invited to go for the social gathering. Not actual faith involved. But I kind of had that call but was kind of pushing it aside. But with Wintersville happened I had my photograph taken. I had the whole world come down upon me. My name was Doxxed and I was then thrown, thrown into hundreds of death threats. My whole I had many friends say, you know, we don't want to associate with anymore. I had family same way. But it was nice in that time actually during that night, during the Torch for Night rally was the first moment I realized I had made big mistakes in my life where it's kind of ironic, I was actually being carried away by a Klansman. And that's when you were being carried away by Klansmen. You kind of realize, like, you've made a mistake in life. Gotta go reevaluate a bit. And so that's why I decided that I kind of didn't like who I was or who I was becoming. I wanted to do the right thing, but I was so intoxicated with this racial, super racial nationalism that it was, you know, perverting any sense of justice I really had. So after Unite the Right rally, I was at home. I stay with my dad primarily, and I decided it was time to find a new direction in life. And it was around that time I started attending the Catholic Church more. More frequently. It was actually a mass, traditional Latin Mass at the Thomas Aquinas Cathedral in Reno, Nevada. They had it once a month. And I was taking a walk, and I saw it, so I decided to go. And I said, this feels like home. And so I talked to the priest at the time, and he says, well, you're. You're welcome here. And we just had very quiet conversations. And then that fall, I enrolled in RCIA and began the process to convert. And I didn't have that coming to God moment right away. I. I believed, or I wanted to believe, but I didn't really know much more than that. But I went into rcia, threw myself into learning the catechism, the history. And when I was there, the Church made me feel welcome, like they all knew, but they. They never made me feel unwanted, unwelcome. They kind of were already starting to want to forgive me. And so it was the one place I felt safe. I felt this is the first right decision I made a long time. And I was then confirmed in 2018, April 1, I think, Easter. So I was conferred to the Catholic Church.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah, I think this is so interesting to unpack because I hear this similar trajectory from a lot of people right now, and I think there's a whole generation of young men that are navigating these same feelings that you were having in 2015-2018 in real time. There's a sense of frustration, there's a sense of inaction from the people that are supposed to be leading our society. And I'm seeing this righteous anger be vulnerably preyed upon by people with bad intentions to activate people into what you're calling identity identitarian politics. I'm curious to unpack that a little bit with you as well. For people who don't necessarily know what that means. What does that mean? What is this Unite the Right rally? What were some of the organizations you were associated with, and how did you get sucked into that to begin with? Why was that attractive?

[Peter Saitanovich]

So I grew up in rural Nevada. For those who aren't aware, read outside Rand, Nevada Wash, your county. So I was near the city, but not quite in the city. And I grew up not destitute, but definitely working class, poor. And I saw a lot of people around me who were very much poorer than me. Drugs were a big problem. Violence was a problem, and. And it was primarily white. And when I was growing up, my dad taught me about justice. You know, he was really big into the classics, Aristotle and things like that. He told me about, you know, trying to do the right thing. And so I saw this kind of injustice around me, and I knew my heart was wrong, but I didn't have the language to articulate why. And so that was a big reason why I went to college. I started. I would go into political science because I wanted to figure out more of the answers to why is this wrong? It's, you know, it's famous. Like, you can see an injustice, can't explain why. So when I was there, I got. I tried to get involved with different political groups. I was kind of all over the place. I didn't really have a philosophy, so I kind of got involved with the Marxists for a little bit, and that didn't really work out. I kind of worked with libertarians, and that didn't work out. But what really drew me to what to call the identitarians was a sense of community solidarity. Is at the time, the. A lot of the conservative college Republicans I was working with were very much of the individualist free market, which is not necessarily wrong. It's just when I was talking to him, I just didn't answer the question. I was looking for some. It's a good conversations. We get more heated. But I never felt satisfied with what I was being taught was like, the correct answer for conservatism, even though I was drawn to conservative ideas. So I started looking online, like we all do. You know, it was going to YouTube. And this was literally 2015 with Trump's first term. And I was. I was on board with Trump from the. From day one, because I felt, even though he's a billionaire, he was. The first time someone said, I care about you. You're poor, white trash, middle of nowhere, but I care about you. And as out of all the candidates at the time, I feel like he's the one who actually, you know, meant it, you know, and so me and a few other college Republicans, we really got on board. And I wasn't super active with this campaign, but I was taught, I had a lot of conversations about it. And those conversations led to more online stuff. So around 2016, after Trump's elected, the first time I voted was for Trump. I was very excited with him winning. But this kind of was. The alt right movement was an attempt by online personalities to articulate a paleo conservative or an old guard conservative ideology that wasn't libertarian. It had much more of this communitarian social solidarity kind of aspect to it. But what they really got stuck on was racial solidarity.

[Isabelle Brown]

Interesting.

[Peter Saitanovich]

There were a few Christians, but they were. It wasn't about faith or kind of, I think a more holistic traditionalism, like faith, family, freedom. Exactly. Yeah. They, they created a very superficial understanding where the only thing that bound us together was a material racial solidarity. And that if you were, if you were half white, half Hispanic, you weren't even count, you know, there was a way to find exclusions. But for me at the time, it was the only solidarity I really thought made sense. I hadn't learned about the tradition of the church yet. That was still foreign to me. So I started getting involved with these people, just having conversations, looking at their YouTube and then just listening. And it was the only thing. Since it was the only answer I had, it became the correct answer at the time. And this was. I apparently joined the group Identity Europa because I thought they were the most moderate. That's maybe that's true. But they weren't modern themselves. For any people aren't aware, the identitarianism movement was mostly in Europe at the time. And this was kind of the idea to bring that to United States. And I think there was an attempt to make it legitimate where it's not the neo Nazism or the Klans and we're like, we're better than that. We just have a kind of racial, of a European heritage solidarity. So we thought we were better in reality. You know, I fully admit is I didn't think I was, but I was drawn into neo Nazism. I found myself becoming more, more hateful, just genuinely more hateful at my everyday actions. I became just more angry as a person because the wrong people were just kind of just inserting little ideas in. And so I didn't actually join any official group until, that's the summer of 2017. I knew people who were joining. I was primarily involved with like just trying to go through college. But I joined this Identity Europa in 2017 and that's what led me to Charlottesville because they invited me. This is big rally coming in. This can be your first one. So that's what kind of brought me to the identitarianism in the United the right movement. And I think the, the red flags were there from the beginning, but I actively chose to ignore them.

[Isabelle Brown]

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[Peter Saitanovich]

That's very accurate. Yes. I very much think that they, you know, they kind of took the one kernel of legitimate concern and then were able to, you know, corrupted.

[Isabelle Brown]

Interesting. Do you think other young men are being seduced in that same way right now?

[Peter Saitanovich]

Yes and no. I. I think in a way things are more extreme. I think with the past few years, you know, we've. The temperature has gotten hot, a lot hotter for. On both sides. But on the other side, I think a lot more people recognize that is an issue. So at least in my case, when I converted Catholicism, I was able to find avenues of Catholic social thought and other people who also were able to answer these questions, but in a far more legitimate, much more of Christian charity, which was not bound. Not we're bound together in hatred of others, but we're bound together in love of one another. And so I think it's just a problem without others who are still drawn. More people are probably drawn to the more hateful version. But I also think a lot of law people are allowed to find these alternatives that are more common.

[Isabelle Brown]

It sounds to me like this is driven by a lack of community and orientation towards other people around you. And certainly this seems to be a huge problem for Generation Z. We are regularly reported as the generation struggling with the most loneliness in maybe all of American and world history. We struggle with things like anxiety, depression, suicidation, substance abuse, and a lot of people blame these things for it. I think there's a lot deeper cultural contribution to that than just technology, although that certainly plays a part. I like this juxtaposition you create, though, of being driven by hatred for others and creating a sense of solidarity that way, or being driven by a common shared love that is binding us together, probably in the fact that we were all created in the divine image of God. Right. We can see God in one another. Are you hopeful about the religious revival you're seeing with young people right now and making that distinction away from hatred

[Peter Saitanovich]

and towards Love, I think so. I know that people can be drawn to different faith traditions, but what I think is so beautiful at the Christian faith is it does emphasize the human person. And I think in a world where jobs can be lonely, the Internet can further isolate us with parasocial relationships. Poverty is dehumanizing. There's all these kinds of social ills that drive us to isolationism, isolation, loneliness and just these, all these issues in our society. But I think what the Christian faith really emphasizes for me is this kind of social nature of the person that it's good to pursue. These kind of communities that are very banal and boring, but they're what makes life worth living is living near your church and walking to your neighbors and then having brunch with them or bringing the family's over to the kids play together or just socializing after church and making conscious effort to kind of find love in those everyday interactions. I think that, and I think the church is probably the best emphasizing that in a way that other communities can do it. But I think the church has the, the deepest answer.

[Isabelle Brown]

You said that the temperature is turning up pretty significantly in these last few years and I would agree with you. I think Internet discourse is totally different now than even when I started as a content creator several years ago in the midst of the beginnings of a Trump era of politics. And there's a lot to unpack there. But I'm curious to see from your experience what you are noting on the Internet as potentially very troublesome or even just outright dangerous, especially for young men.

[Peter Saitanovich]

I think. Well, a lot of blogs on the Internet, to be fair, I try to try and don't even use any more if I can. But I think the thing that bothers me is at least from my own personal experience is this kind of the Internet creates two people almost at least for my example of my experiences. My experience at Charlottesville has frozen a version of me in time that when people read about me, they hate me. From that version of me, they know everything they need want to know about me from googling me and they oh, he is Nazi. He did this. They read articles that might like you know, from 10 years ago that some are even true, but it's a snapshot of me that is so. It's almost more real than the me I am now. In fact, where I still lose friendships, I still, I still lose jobs. I'm still to this very day I'm so worried about my employment, despite all of the attempts is in my, in my real life outside the phone. The Internet. I have a loving wife, I have good friends. I have everything. That life makes life meaningful. But that doesn't matter to some people, to a lot of people on the Internet. And I know, I'm sure the same would apply to you and to others where the Internet is almost more real than reality. And I think that's something that is. Affects people on the right, the left. Where we want, we build up these caricatures, caricatures of those we hate or don't disagree with. And I. I know I'm still guilty of this all. Someone I'll see online and I'll immediately have this medium, like almost revulsion, like a visceral reaction. Yeah, yes. You know, same as someone I for your name. But you mentioned the person who did OnlyFans and then converted to Christianity. I pray to God she's legitimate and I hope she's happy. But my. I mean, I admit my immediate reaction is kind of like, oh, I don't want to trust that, because the Internet gives me a snapshot of this person. It's a real human being created in the image of God, created with, you know, hopes, dreams, fears, everything I have. And the Internet scrubs that away. So I think the Internet, for all of our discourse, is very dehumanizing in a way, and it's creates a barrier to interpersonal communion that we so desperately need and what God calls us to

[Isabelle Brown]

do, ironically, as it's connecting all of us in so many important ways. Right. It's almost like it creates an inability for you to evolve as a human person the way that we've treated social media in so many different aspects throughout our lifetime. And I really see that in the lens of redemption and walking away from sin to repent of evil and to instead start walking towards the grace of God, which we desperately need, obviously, but certainly pray that everyone has the chance to access as Christians. And I'm curious to get your take on that because you talk in your article about how people have this immediate visceral view of you that makes them really uncomfortable based on one photograph that was taken of you at a very dark, vulnerable point in your life. People hear your name, they Google you, they look at this picture and all they can think is, peter is a white supremacist, Peter is a neo Nazi, he's not worthy of us to be associated with, and he's gonna lose his job or not get accepted to a graduate program or whatever. Right. I see that a lot right now with people coming to the faith in really public ways. You mentioned one Person in particular, a good friend of ours named Nala Ray. She's a beautiful young woman, used to be an OnlyFans creator, one of the top creators on the platform, and decided to leave all that behind to pursue a faith in God, to get baptized, become married, and to use her platform to bring people towards Christ. There's another example off the top of my head of a young man named Niza Powers, who we had on the show a couple of months ago, but is a detransitioner. He lived as a woman for 12 years and decided that he wanted to connect with who God created him to be instead, so decided to detransition from living as a woman. Is now in the process of converting to the faith. Will be confirmed at Easter with his beautiful girlfriend. We're so excited for them. And I see people, people want to believe in these stories, but there is this, like, initial, well, I know something about them from a few years ago, or I saw a video of them that still is going to live in infamy from 12 years ago or something crazy. They're too far gone. They're too beyond redemption because they did that one thing that's just never going to bring them back to the sanctifying grace of God. You get some of that in your own life. How do we overcome that as Christians?

[Peter Saitanovich]

I know the answer, I think, is very easy, but also very, very challenging, where it's just, I think, the true virtue of forgiveness, it's very much. You know, I did mention just in my article, it's. He, he did say at one point where, you know, forgiveness is. You have to forgive the unforgivable, otherwise it's not a forgiveness virtue at all. And I think that's kind of what makes. Makes Christianity so unique, is it is a radical forgiveness and a radical, you know, charity to love the unlovable, to love the ugly, to love the. The lowly. And I think that the whole tradition is fundamentally based on that. And it's, it's. It's really hard. But it's what God ultimately commands us to do, where God forgives all of us. We all have that potential for grace. And I, I think if we truly want to live as Christians, that's, again, probably one of the hardest things we can ever do, that we always, we all have somebody who, like, I will never forgive them.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah.

[Peter Saitanovich]

But that's just not we're supposed to do. And I think it's hard for people to believe, maybe because we live in a less Christian world. I do think we kind of ignore a lot of the virtues that make being Christian difficult. We tend to prefer a very secular, atomized material world which makes the Christian virtues so much more alien to us. But it's really just trying to live out these radical senses of again, radical joy, radical hope, charity, faith, forgiveness. All these things which they sound easy but it's I think it's possible just living in, you know, in your everyday interactions forgiving those who annoy you or just your neighbors who are very, you know, or causing you issues or your family members who you may not like or maybe that you, you always got to forgive them. Those everyday interact I think are make it easier to forgive the people who you don't meet who like you know, they, they make so public. But like oh is possible to forgive them. But the answer is it's easy but also really hard.

[Isabelle Brown]

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[Peter Saitanovich]

One point is to get off the Internet more. I think social media is driving that wedge between us. I think it's essential to get off the Internet more. I think there's. That we should pursue something of like the right to be forgotten, at least in terms like a policy side. Because I do think the. This. These kind of issues, it almost is affecting our politics, is that humans. I think there's a. If you do something wrong, like I legitimately messed up, I will never say I did nothing wrong. I. I made horrible mistakes, I hurt people indirectly and I truly wish I never did that. But I think there's almost a human level of this kind of punishment at a certain point where even people say it's like you make a mistake online for the Internet, if you make a mistake, it will go in the newspaper, but eventually we'll forget. There's a natural point where it kind of recedes off and if you truly repented, you can live a new life and that will be for forgotten for the most part. And there's kind of a natural limit to these things and now the Internet makes that possible.

[Isabelle Brown]

So yeah, what do you, what are your concerns about that? I mean the Internet says everything lives forever, right? At something you tweeted when you were 12 years old. All of a sudden is defining whether or not you can go to graduate school or get a job.

[Peter Saitanovich]

These days, I think it's really hurting our ability to live next door to each other in the sense of, you know, we want to find common ground as a country again. We have to find a way to let these things go. And it's, it is a point of maybe looking to the Internet, but also is again asking this for ourselves and not just as a superficial I forgive you or I hear a lot of time is, you know, it's kind of this condescending, patronizing, you know, I know you messed up and I, you know, I support your right to freedom of speech and they don't really mean that. But I think it's, you know, if people are really part of this religious revival to Christianity is understanding this, this, this radical demand that I think will require, it's almost if we all follow it would mean more transformation of the social system, of our social order is we are social creatures who must live together and that God commands us radically to, you know, live together. That, that saw that, I think it was St. John Paul II or maybe Benedict 16th. I said this is salvation is social, is that we seek heaven together and that it's a, it's not just a thing you can do sometimes. It is a radical command to live out the faith. So even if the Internet's not going to let you forget, I think we have to raise the next generation of children, of our children to recognize that, yes, your stuff's gonna be online too. They, they do something stupid, well, you're gonna do it too. Like I, I still see people in the next generation of people who are posting things online and I see that's so, I'm so, I feel sorry for him.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah. That's really driven a lot of my husband and I's parenting decisions. I mean, our daughter's not yet one, she'll be one next month. But we've been thinking so much about how are we going to shelter our children from some of this stuff and protect them from the eternity of the Internet. Because the stuff I'm seeing 10 year olds post on Tick Tock because their parents aren't involved in their lives and, and in helping shepherd their technological experience is so, so scary to me.

[Peter Saitanovich]

It is wild, it's horrifying. And then it's just it will be there forever.

[Isabelle Brown]

It will.

[Peter Saitanovich]

And I don't think people recognize that. It's one of those things where like, you can say it to them a thousand times, they're not going to get it until they're seeing it 20 years later.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah, you said this like common dehumanization that we're seeing of the other and othering people on social media is really impacting our politics. Can you shed some more light on that?

[Peter Saitanovich]

So I don't have like the actual, like a more very articulated answer, but something I've been thinking about over the last year or so in my own academic studies is this sense of, you know, the we. We all fall into our own individual factions in the Paul in the politics and the Internet because it creates that kind of character. It's easier to antagonize that where you know, instead of it used to be where you have to meet the other person face to face and deliberate in the Tokavilian sense, you go to your town and you deliberate and it's kind of messy, it's kind of chaotic, but you're still working with your neighbor.

[Isabelle Brown]

How the sausage is made, as they say in Washington. Yes,

[Peter Saitanovich]

but I, I think that, you know, even like a lot of, you know, people on the left, people on the right, they do have different visions of the world. But the Internet first I think is creating openness of information so people can develop a whole separate vision of the world where people on the left have. They absorb their own source of information that you know, their own circles of old books that you can now look on PDFs, old stuff that you can never find before you can just Google it. And there's a hundred cop, you know, thousands of copies. And they have, they create their own. Creating their own worldview, their own sense of good and right and the same with the right and you know, you know, especially the Christian sense. And when you disagree with them, it's. Their whole worldview is just wrong on everything. And I think it's again going with like sense of just their sense of right and wrong is now being able to diverge more. And then that kind of cries to the. The dehumanization that we see of, you know, again where someone could post something on a stream and then it. You disagree with it. But also reflects to a profound distinction of a worldview that at least for me as a Christian is I have a worldview that is now more traditional and is I. I still truly believe that marriage is between one man and woman. I. I don't believe that you can transition. I, I don't. You know, I also don't really believe that divorce, you can't, if you get married in the eyes of God, you can't really divorce these type of things. And that's a whole set of a worldview that the left is, it's totally anathema to it. Yeah, totally the same thing. They will have values that I just, I can't agree with. And the Internet just makes it impossible to even kind of bridge each other. And that's kind of rambling. Answer.

[Isabelle Brown]

No, I like how you're articulating this actually, because I worry that we've created this echo chamber of confirmation bias because of algorithms that I don't know how we overcome moving forward. And we certainly see that on social topics like gender transition. Right. And some of these more controversial things that we've lacked the opportunity to really openly discuss as a society because the second you bring it up, you're just censored for hate speech or misinformation or whatever. So there's no real open conversation about it. But I do see it in both directions. And I think we've often fallen prey in the last decade or so to putting the ideology above the human person. And that's something I've really been struggling with in my Catholic faith this last few years or so. Perfect example being that your family will always matter more than your job. Right. So what policies can we put forward to help young people have more families and put their families above their paycheck? Maybe we should be incorporating better maternity leave or paternity leave policies. That's not really a traditional conservative thing to believe. But sometimes the second you bring that up here in Washington, people just go like, it's immediate. No, I don't have anything to listen to from here on out with anything that you have to say. And obviously the exact same thing goes the other way. Right. People think that they are like this, this like crusader for everything that is good if they're trying to help a 12 year old castrate herself before she even goes through puberty, because that's how she's going to love herself. And the minute you suggest otherwise, you are this evil bigot and misogynist and you, you hate people, et cetera. Where I've been trying to reconnect with my faith and I think where maybe the church has yet to take on an offensive role in this. And what I'm hopeful we'll see more of with a Pope that really understands what's going on socially. Right. Now is that the church is the nexus point of our common shared humanity. Right. And there's some things about my worldview as a person that inevitably I'm probably getting wrong. And it takes a lot of humility to say that. But I am an opinionated, values based person just as much as the person sitting on the other side of the aisle is from me. And I have to have the humility to submit myself to realizing the reality that God has perpetuated throughout all of human history is more important and more morally right than some of the things that I'm feeling inside of my own soul every day. So how do I resubmit to that? I don't know that the church has taken on a very active role in catechizing the next generation of young people to believe that, though.

[Peter Saitanovich]

I don't, I don't think so either. Like I. One of my favorite things is saying Catholic social teaching. So I won't get too far into it right now. But one thing I like about it is the church has had, has this extremely deep well of social teachings, of philosophy, of moral teachings. Basically everything you think of, they, they talk about it. It's. When I, when I go to Catholic University, they talk to the theology students. They're just, they have theology of everything. There's somebody who talks about it and you just. The, the very niche things they can come up with is fascinating. But what I think is great about the Catholic Church especially, or just Christianity is I think it's the point where people can transcend the traditional left right spectrum. Like I think being Roman Catholic is. I am so pro family that I very much support there. There are very much legitimate criticisms. Left has of tour our current market system to housing, to banking. In fact, you know, Chesterton was famously anti capitalist. In fact he died his last essays was just absolutely deriding the capitalist system as destroying human families. And I think that allows for this kind of recognition that the left has either some truly do have part of the truth. They have legitimate concerns over the environment, the concerns over banking and interest rates. Housing is an issue. And I think the right has corrections like the family social values. And I think the beauty of the church is you look back throughout the tradition. They have, you know, they have clergy members and lay people writing about it and they're constantly coming to traditions that almost anathema today where you have priests who are deeply socially conservative but also are espousing views that are very left wing, at least economically. And it's, it's something that I think in our world. It's so hard to kind of recognize that there can be a truth that is, you know, again, truly transcends both. We say we want that. It's like we want to look, pursue the truth on ideology, but then it's hard to do.

[Isabelle Brown]

I could have 8 million more conversations about Catholic social teaching and theology. And I know you guys are wanting them because you keep asking for them. So I promise more will be coming. But in case you forgot, on the note of being Catholic, we are smack dab in the middle of Lent, headed towards Holy Week, the most most powerful week and my favorite week of the year. This is our moment to walk with Jesus through His suffering, his death and his resurrection. Don't let it pass you by. This Lent, I have very much dove Into Hallows Annual Pray 40 Lent Prayer Challenge and it has been so transformative in my life, my family's life, and just recentering God as the cornerstone of our daily routine as a family every single day. Here is Hallow's challenge for you. If you have or even haven't been participating in Pray 40 throughout Lent this year, finish Lent strong. You can have more prayer, more intentional fasting, and more generosity. Start with prayer. You guys can download Hallow today even if you haven't the last few weeks, which would mean you're not listening to me, which I would be frustrated about. But now commit to something daily. There are thousands of guided prayers, passion meditations and worship tracks to help you actually slow down and hear God's voice in the middle of a noisy world. Next fast from what's distracting you. Maybe that's food, but maybe it's also social media or constant scrolling negativity, gossip or your phone in general. Remove whatever is blocking you from having a deeper relationship with God. Then give not just money, but give your patience, your grace, love and kindness, especially when it's inconvenient, because that is real Christian charity. Whatever you're carrying, broken relationships, family stress, anxiety, fear, bring it all to the cross this Lent. You do not have to carry it alone. Jesus died for you personally. Lent is our chance to respond. Download Hallow on the App Store today. Commit to daily prayer and get 3 months [e-mail] Isabel I think people usurp their faith with their political ideology a whole lot more, especially in America. And that seems to be a uniquely American problem in the last several decades, certainly within our lifetime, where Americanism and your political ideology, your national identity is more important in many different ways than your identity in Christ. But we have so much History to fall back upon to realize okay, how do we find this middle way economically is a great example. Right. The church teaches that Marxist socialism is wrong. It is very antithetical to the teachings of the church in terms of human dignity and the rights that you have to certain private property that God has gifted you with all of these things. Right. But at the same time totally unbridled capitalism is also wrong. And we saw a lot of that in the industrial revolution that people became commodified. You have to have some level of dignity baked into workers rights in a society to make sure people aren't being taken advantage of. And how do we learn how to charitably share with others, not just to covet for ourselves. These are such important questions, but often don't even make it to the conversational circuit in our society because we can't talk to each other anymore.

[Peter Saitanovich]

No. And it's like I think you know, going back to even August and, and I think St. Gregory the Great, I can't remember her name but you know that there is a radical call to giving away money to the poor. And that's just not like a little bit. It's a radical. You must give it away at a certain point. I know Fulton Sheen talked about that too. Is he even said like famously when it was a quote that stuck with me. Is the right to say this bed is mine is different than saying this yacht is mine. At a certain point it becomes super, super superfluous wealth.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah.

[Peter Saitanovich]

And even the church even says on private property. I like it is private property is a right, but is a social right. The. The right to property is private but the use of is social.

[Isabelle Brown]

Interesting.

[Peter Saitanovich]

There's a balance where I think it's one of the Pope separate guys killing me. He actually says private property is a secondary right to the human person. And that John Paul II I believe that, you know, it allows support of private property. But recognizing its use, its value has a social dimension. Same with a lot of what we do which allows for many Catholics historically and even up to today supporting large scale involvement into credit unions and cooperatives. In fact that's actually what my dissertation is about.

[Isabelle Brown]

Interesting.

[Peter Saitanovich]

Is studying a cooperative corporation because it's founded by a Catholic priest. Priest. And you know I know both Leo 14 is pretty new yet. But Pope Francis, Benedict XVI, John Paul II especially were very big on these seemingly left wing economic issues. And a lot of times they were because it was about the, the social nature of the person. It's very fascinating. It's the church is almost Paradoxical and all these things.

[Isabelle Brown]

Well, we think about it like left wing because that's the lens politically through which we're viewing it. But really it's outside. It transcends the political spectrum.

[Peter Saitanovich]

These things sound like a contradiction or paradox, but in, in the Christian faith it's not. It's kind of, you know, it's, it's everywhere. Everywhere else it would almost make no sense, but how the church understands the nature of society and the person, that actually makes perfect sense.

[Isabelle Brown]

Well, I'm sure we would have a lot of very fun things to talk about economically because I am a capitalist if nothing else. But I do think there is an interesting opportunity here for Christians especially to start reckoning with what is the hierarchy of importance in establishing my worldview. Is it something that the President of the United States said, or my favorite podcaster that's really involved in politics? Or is it a pope that I happen to love, or an early church father, or more importantly, just the magisterium of the church at large? Where is my submission going to and how can I use that as the lens through which to build my political and social worldview? In our last couple minutes though, I'm curious to get your take on this. The idea of this vulnerability happening with young people, stemming from frustration, I think is really going to guide the next era of American politics and social thought. Universally, young people are frustrated, period, full stop. On the right, on the left, everywhere in between, there is this sense of generational anger in a righteous way, in many ways, that those who came before us failed to act in the right ways to serve the common good, whatever that means. We are seeing a huge resurgence of generally socially conservative policies happening with young people right now, right in hand in hand with this religious revival we're seeing. But we're also seeing the idea of legitimate social justice being co opted by the left into all of these insane ideologies and radical propositions to really destroy the dignity of the human person and our unity in society. How do we start to reconcile that and how can we reinstitute legitimate social justice with this revival of conservatism in society?

[Peter Saitanovich]

I think the most basic thing to do is pursue justice in your everyday communities the most banal ways you can. There's always the high end political of voting for president, voting for Congress and Senate. But I think conservatives, if they want to pursue a true just social order, is working with other Christians to pursue the, the methods of, you know, see, seeing the errors you have in your community, I think that a lot more can be Done in the boring in the food donation, in the helping each other out with home repairs or clothing and food drives like the Catholic Church used to have. Almoners used to give so much to your church they had to pay somebody to distribute the money. And I think that's the. The church ought to be. If you're conservative, you're not Christian, then you could figure something out, I suppose. But if you are, the church ought to be the nexus of. I get your everyday solidarity in the sense of caring for your neighbor. Yes. And basic mutual aid. Just if your neighbor needs help with basic needs and services coordinating that I think doing those little basic things. I think think alleviate that frustration that they're saying done. Because you can see it tangibly in your everyday life versus waiting for the next political leader to save us all. When nothing gets done, everything, everything starts to rot around you. And I think that just a a it's more human interacting with your neighbor. Especially if you have the chance to work with people who are also not conservative.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah.

[Peter Saitanovich]

If you're not, if you just forget about conservative, liberal, Republican, Democrat that forget all of that and just work alongside your neighbor who may be a very progressive liberal and you can just say, you know, we can solve these every problem together. I think that kind of solidarity in, in labor and working together will help mitigate the. The alienation we fought we find with one another. So it's the boring everyday work.

[Isabelle Brown]

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[Peter Saitanovich]

I think the most basic thing is to get off the Internet more. Maybe not all the time, but if you can getting off social media a little more and just try and get away from that riling up and going just talking to your neighbors more, trying to again your everyday living with recognizing there's a reality outside the Internet that is riling you up. And you'll find that even if you may not agree with your neighbor, they're still probably a decent fellow. You know, they have a world experience that's that, you know, it might be worth talking to. And I think those everyday interactions of life or what make life meaningful and I think it's kind of what's going to do more than anything else. It just talk. It sounds very boring. Boring. And I'm sure people who see this have heard it before. Just talk to your neighbor. But that's true. We don't know our neighbors, don't know each other. And I think why do we hate. Why do I hate my neighbor? Because he said something on Twitter when I can just just, you know, have a, you know, a potluck or just say hi, invite one for dinner. I think I can do a lot more for building charity and love than probably any other major thing we can do.

[Isabelle Brown]

Last question for you is a good one. In the midst of this righteous frustration with the lack of action we've seen from our elected officials and cultural leaders at large in watching Western culture be erased, including the culture of the church in so many ways. How can we keep fighting for our cultural heritage and our traditions while not getting sucked into racial supremacy?

[Peter Saitanovich]

I think it's. I think the answer would be to recognize that these traditions are legitimate and beautiful and that, you know, they have a place in our very diverse and beautiful world, in this world of nations. And it's allowing, you know, I think a lot of people turn to racial solidarity because they weren't allowed to even believe in that heritage in the good way. It's kind of the local traditions of your community. And also if you're of being an American, there are unique heritage that make us uniquely American. And that's okay and beautiful, actually.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yes.

[Peter Saitanovich]

And it's. I love American history. It's 250.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah.

[Peter Saitanovich]

So it's these type of things that being able to accept they're legitimate and real, I, I think will go a long way to alleviate the, you know, if no one's answering me, then, you know, I will go to the more extreme. And I think the same with the European cultures and I guess all cultures. That's the thing is, you know, I personally think it's recognizing that all the world that God gave us, all these beautiful nations of the world, and that's good, especially in the world of globalization, being able to preserve them and allow people to have these identities and these, this history and that makes them unique in the world. And I think. But if, if the left and the right can just universally agree that these are all real cultures, I think that will go a long ways. It's because people turn to racial solidarity because they feel attacked. And if they don't feel as attacked, they don't feel as antagonized. I don't feel they. I don't think people have as much a desire to associate. They don't feel that's the solution they have to go to.

[Isabelle Brown]

That's always troubled me about multiculturalism and globalism because if everything's the same culture,

[Peter Saitanovich]

then nothing is cultural. It's all the same.

[Isabelle Brown]

So always need to keep fighting back and making sure we fight for the truth more than anything against these lies that are seeking to destroy the beautiful aspects of our humanity. Right.

[Peter Saitanovich]

Anything. There's a natural, there's an organic diversity to the world and then there's kind of like this again, like, I would say like a. Almost like a liberal force diversity. It's, you know, the like looking United Kingdom is very diverse with the Anglo Saxon cultures and the Welsh, the Irish, the Manx. And no one rational person would say that's a not diverse place. And the United States is already incredibly diverse with the Southern cultures and the Western cultures, the Amerindian peoples and the African cultures that they all mix and blend. And, you know, I'm thinking to, you know, oh, that's just not. That's not diverse. That's incredibly diverse in its own way. All our own regions, our own accents, which are slowly dying, sadly.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah. But then our own food even. Yes. In different parts of the country.

[Peter Saitanovich]

Forcing all this, I think forcing new levels of diversity and saying that's not real diversity. Diversity, I think is antagonizing to people like, wait, what do you mean my life's not diverse? You know, and I think that's. I don't think it's the proper way to pursue that. I think it's antagonizing.

[Isabelle Brown]

Yeah. Well, may we all fight for less antagonism in our culture, moving forward and coming together in our shared nexus of our common, shared humanity. Again, we fight for that every day on my show, whether that be in the pro life movement or seeing one another as created in God's divine image against the lies of stuff like physician assisted suicide and so, so much, much that we're navigating constantly in our often very broken and sinful world. But to know that there is a path for redemption for so many people and that there's a sense of hope in our culture, again matters so, so much. So thank you truly from the bottom of my heart for having the courage to share your story about leaving racial supremacy politics behind and finding that common, shared humanity in your Catholic universal faith with so many people in our generation

[Peter Saitanovich]

who need to have shared it. Thank you very much.

[Isabelle Brown]

Absolutely huge thank you again to Peter for joining us on the show today. I think this conversation really matters, you guys, and I encourage you to share this with people in your own life because I am seeing so many young men rightfully angry about the lack of action to preserve our cultures, our heritage, and Western civilization at large, but who are being preyed upon in this moment of vulnerability by bad actors with bad intentions to try to institute actual evil in the world. This is turning into a really messy spaghetti web of way too much going on at the exact same time. And I think it's confusing this next generation with exactly how we are supposed to institute the good, the true and the beautiful when we go on offense for Western civilization moving forward. Maybe, you know, a young man who's been struggling with a lot of these issues, maybe you're worried that someone in your life might be thinking about them. For whatever reason, you might want to share this with someone. I hope Peter's story can be a source of inspiration and light. To know that it's 1,100% possible to preserve one's culture and heritage, but also to make sure our common, shared humanity is at the forefront of what we're fighting for every single day. We are back next Friday for some long form interviews with some very special guests. As usual, every week. But in the meantime, we'll see you on the show on Monday. Have a great weekend.