← The Isabel Brown Show
The Isabel Brown Show
How Jinger Duggar Vuolo Found Freedom In True Faith, Marriage, & Motherhood
01:00:34
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A
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying Big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for
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B
3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
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A
See full terms@mintmobile.com Brendan I'm Brendan Steinhauser, CEO of the alliance for Secure AI. We're a coalition of patriotic Americans who want to stop AI from taking our freedoms. Big Tech is propping up AI powered mass surveillance and exploiting our children online. This is not the future we want. The alliance is working hard to ensure that we put Americans first. Join us@secureainow.org to learn more. Paid for by the alliance for Secure AI no holding hands before you're engaged.
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C
Yeah. No kissing before marriage.
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A
Can't say I love you before you're engaged.
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C
Yeah. Oh, he said it. He had just started talking. He wasn't from the culture. So like he told me that he loved me.
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A
She said, okay, okay, yeah.
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C
Like you love me? Okay, cool. But I wanted to say it, but I was not about to say it because I didn't know what was going to happen to me if I did. It's just one of those things. It was so cultural and I just thought it was like this big deal. Like he said I love me and now what do I do with that?
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B
You guys might remember from throughout the 2000s and 2000s, one family in particular dominating the realm of reality tv. And I am not talking about the Kardashians.
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D
No, no, I am talking about the
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B
Duggar family, the face of the TV show 19 Kids and and counting. This family has had incredible scrutiny over
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D
the past few years.
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B
But many of the older Duggar siblings have now come out and built their own brands, voices, lifestyles and families coming into adulthood in the most beautiful ways. Despite unbelievable tragedy, extreme scrutiny in the public eye and a whole lot of controversial things about how they were raised, one of these Duggar now adults, not kids, is the beautiful Ginger Duggar. Now Ginger Duggar Vuolo and her husband Jeremy, who have spent so long, so much time over the past few years dedicating their public lives to building a platform, leading people to Christ in a beautiful and authentic way, not just for adults, but also for kids. And they have a very exciting new kids book coming out called you'd Always belong. This is the latest installment in Ginger's career as an author. But more than anything, I have just so enjoyed watching their content over the past few years. Both Ginger and Jeremy together speak with such beautiful intention. They are clearly grounded in the truth of the gospel and the light of the Holy Spirit and are doing everything they can to help other people find the beauty of Christ in our culture as well. Today, Ginger and Jeremy join us together on the Isabel Brown show for a full conversation about faith, about family and parenting, about our culture and where we need to fight for what is good and true and beautiful going into the next generation of American kids. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming them to the show.
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D
Ginger and Jeremy, I am so excited to have you on the Isabel Brown show today. Sadly, virtually, because our in person meeting didn't work out, but that's a. Okay. And namely just for you guys to continue telling your inspiring story to the world. For those that may not be keeping up with your family, Ginger, or may have last seen you when you were a kid, can you just start by reintroducing yourself to the world and let us know what you guys have been up to these days?
- [03:45]
C
Yeah, so I'm Ginger and of course my husband Jeremy here. And yeah, we've, we have currently, like, we're in LA and so we have three little kiddos who are keeping us very busy. They're seven, five and 10 months. And yeah, we, we were in the public eye for many years. So for anybody who's like, oh, Ginger, I think I know that name, but I'm not sure where I was. One of the Duggar kids grew up in the public eye on tv, on a reality TV show for most of my life, from the age of 9 or 10 until 27. And so that's kind of where people may have seen us. But then since then I've been writing books and speaking out on many topics that are close to my heart. And our latest is a kids book that we're excited to share with you guys today.
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D
I'm so excited to get into the kids book, but first I think we should just start with what your upbringing was like and what it was maybe like, Jeremy, for you to marry into this sort of a family dynamic. I certainly can imagine growing up in the public eye, especially with the scrutiny that your family was experiencing. Every day was a very unique experience. Can you give us a window into what that was like?
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C
Yeah, so I was very thankful to be raised in a Christian home. My parents shared us, shared with us the true gospel. And so from an early age, I knew that salvation was not by works. I knew that there was nothing I could do to earn God's favor. I was taught that. And sadly, at the same time, we also would say, sit under a teacher who he claimed to speak for God but didn't. And that was so difficult. So Bill Gothard, basically in the 60s and 70s, came on the scene saying he had all the answers to life's problems. And so a lot of families gravitated towards that, went to his conferences. They started to adapt their teachings to their family and their church settings. And basically they lived out this perfect guarantee for success by following all of these legalistic rules. And so that's kind of the setting I was raised in. Like, I knew the true gospel, but then we also really held to these teachings as it almost being like a prophet sent from God to tell us these extra teachings that we wouldn't have seen had we just opened the Bible for ourselves. And so through my younger years, we were also filming a lot. And so that's how, um, it was kind of just a part of our life. We knew we were kind of the odd ones out. You know, even on the show, people would be like, oh, this is so weird, because I grew up in a very large family. We had 19 kids total in our family, and it was hectic. But my mom had like, organization systems, and so she kept everything running and is really a superhero hero. She is. But it was kind of an interesting childhood because I thought, oh, this is super normal. And being raised with strict standards of even the kind of music we listen to, we would not listen to anything with drums because it could bring demons into our house or damnation upon ourselves or, like, some of the rules for, like, we girls would only wear skirts and dresses no matter what you were doing. So riding a bike, anything you were doing, you would be wearing that. And so fast forwarding. It wasn't until I met Jeremy, and shortly before that, I started to notice that, man, these teachings, they're not based in the Bible. And there was a lot of fear and manipulation and control that this teacher placed upon us. And so I started really examining that. And a lot of that was really because the Lord used Jeremy to help me see through a lot of those teachings. So we would just go to the word of God, talk about some things and look into it. And I just started to see, wow, this teaching is really harmful. And yeah, it was. It was quite the journey to where, you know, we're gonna. We can get more into that later. But being raised in like a large family in the public eye with all that, I felt there was a necessity, too, to speak out against the teachings, in particular, not against the family, because I love my family so much, and I think that that was a hard journey to walk on. But God's been faithful to allow us to have a voice to share.
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B
Back to the Volos in just a second. But first, a message from our friends at Instagram. If you guys are anything like me, you love the good parts of the Internet, but you also probably tend to side eye what's out there for our teenagers. I've got a little girl at home, and even though she is light years away from having her own phone, I am already thinking about what inevitably it's going to look like when she eventually
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D
asks, mom, can I have an Instagram?
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B
That's why I'm so glad. Instagram teen accounts now build in automatic protections from day one for teenagers. By default, teen accounts limit who can contact teens so that they're getting messages from people that they actually know, not random strangers sliding into their dms. It's also designed to keep their content experience positive and age appropriate. And for younger teenagers under 16, they can't loosen those default safety settings without a parent's approval, which means that you stay involved in all of the big decisions about how your teen is using Instagram. As a mom, I want to someday actually guide my daughter's online life instead of just reacting after something goes horribly wrong. And these teen accounts give us more tools to do exactly that. So if you've got a teen in your life or a future teen like I do, check out Instagram teen accounts and see how these automatic protections can help them connect more safely online. Learn more@instagram.com teenaccounts Jeremy, before I bring
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D
you in here to talk about what it was like being immersed in this world for the first time, I. I'm curious, Ginger, for those that may not be very familiar with Bill Gothard or your family and watching the show growing up, beyond drums and skirts being worn all the time, what were some of these extra teachings that took you so long to unpack?
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C
Yeah, there were a lot. So a lot of the teachings were based in, like, my view of God. So that's a major thing. Anytime that you have a teacher who seems to have some. Some elements of truth, they'll have a verse that they use to hold to to say, if you follow this, God's going to bless you, or if you don't do this, then you're going to bring damnation. God's waiting to smite you at any turn. That was terrifying because even though I was saved at the age of 14, I remember my life changed drastically then. I wanted to go from loving my sin, loving myself, to loving God, showing his love to others, sharing the gospel. That definitely shifted. But then, because I was sitting under these teachings, it was really difficult for me to separate the view of God that I'd been taught as him being this domineering judge, even to believers, I didn't know how to approach God properly. And so I was very fearful. I was very afraid because a lot of the teachings were based in superstition. So Bill Gothard, for instance, he. He would share stories. He would say that there was like a woman whose husband and sons went out to sea and they died at sea. And he shared a story about a pastor who came in to her to counsel her, and this woman was just broken. And he said, well, if you're wondering why they went out to sea and they died, it's because you have a picture, a painting of a ship on your wall. And they saw that it made them want to go to sea. You didn't know that's the cause, but that's the cause. And she was just crushed and broken, but she got rid of that painting. But that puts the guilt on you for something you didn't know was wrong. So there were lots of layers to it. So he was very, very quick to take one verse and even about like, give us this day our daily bread. Well, he would take that verse and say, okay, therefore, we need to have this specific wheat grinder. We need to make this bread at home. It needs to be this specific kind of bread. You know, it was like, really ridiculous when I look back at it. But it's plausible because he makes up these arguments based on stories. And then once you, like, believe that story, it seems so gripping. He'll throw a verse in there, mix it up, and then he'll say, now pray and commit to God that you're going to do this forever. Basically, like make a vow that you're never going to drink alcohol or you're never going to use any sort of contraceptive or family planning at all. Yeah, you're going to only wear skirts or you're going to vow to read your Bible for five minutes every day. So you make these commitments thinking, oh, this is what God wants me to do. And then he says, and don't forget to pay those to God. So if you don't do that, once you've made that commitment and that vow, then you are in serious trouble, and God can smite you. So we've known many people who get into car accidents because they were not keeping up with this. So, wow. Puts the pressure and fear on you. So I remember being crippled with that fear for years, and it wasn't until we started talking about it, because I don't know, Jeremy, you might even share some of that. Like, he had no clue what he was getting into.
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D
Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, you meet this beautiful woman who, you know, you want to be your wife, and she has 18 siblings. I'm sure that's a lot to wrap your head around to begin with. But then from the more serious perspective, you start peeling back some of these layers, and it took you guys on a journey together. What was that like?
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A
Yeah, I'll just say. To piggyback on what Ginger just said, I quickly realized. Depends how you define quickly. Soon into, like, discovering the teachings and being attracted to her and wanting to get to know her. I'm discovering, okay, what does this teacher believe? And I realized that the pillars of have as many children as possible certain very strict guidelines for how to do relationships, which they call courtship, modesty, standards, what you can and cannot wear, certain things you can eat, can't eat. It's all that superstition that Ginger was talking about that consumed his teachings and had nothing to do with the Bible. Like, you go, so where do you get that in Scripture? And it wasn't there. He had to make it up. And I realized, oh, man, here is a teacher whose central foundational principles have nothing to do with Jesus. So whatever this is, this isn't Christianity. So you could say he's a philosopher or motivational speaker. He's not a Bible teacher. He's not teaching you Christianity because there's no Christ here. But for me, when I got introduced to it, I mean, I remember the first time I pulled up to Big Sandy, Texas, where they had one of their events, and I first met Ginger. I. Again, I had no idea this teacher I had knew of the Duggars. I had met Ben and Jessa. Jessa, her sister married a guy, Ben Sewald. And so I KNEW There was 19 of them, you know, But I pulled up to this camp, and all of these families had, like, 12 to 20 kids, and they were so nice and kind, and they're. A lot of those families are incredible families and incredible people. Like the Duggars I mean, they're just wonderful people. And I quickly realized when I met all the siblings, like, oh, this is a very special family. Like, there's a reason they've been given this platform. And also there's a unique grace that has been given to them. My brother in law, sister in laws, my in laws. They're wonderful people. And getting to know them was unique, but it was definitely a world where I was like, okay, what have I stepped into? I am out of my depth here. I didn't really have any context for it.
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B
Interesting.
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D
So you guys start your courtship process. Can you walk us through what that looked like for you and how it may be different from how typically falling in love looks like American, culturally? Perspective?
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A
Well, it starts before the courtship begins. So everything goes through the father, which I think is very wise in the sense of, like, moms and dads, especially. A father should be very involved.
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D
Absolutely.
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A
The difference was. Yeah, the difference was that Gothard mandated everything. Like, the father had complete control. So if he said, you're not going to date, then that's it. Or if he said, you know, you could be courting for a while, then he goes, nah, it's over, then it's over. Like, there was complete control from the father just in that system. And So I approached Mr. Duggar and I told him we were on a missions trip in El Salvador, and I said, hey, I'd really like to get to know Ginger. And his first response to me was like, she's pretty great, isn't she? And he went on to, like, effusively praise his daughter, which I thought was really sweet because he was just saying things that I had seen inklings of, like her servant heartedness, her humility, her love for others. And he was just telling me, like, ginger's a special girl. And I'm kind of like, yeah, that's why I want to get to know her. How about it? You know? And he told me, he said, why don't you and I get to know each other for a couple of weeks? That turned into five months of just me and him basically talking. And I think a lot of that was because I was from the outside. I was such an unknown entity, and I had theological differences. I wasn't from their world. And so he wanted me to listen to all of Bill Gothard's teachings, which I did. That opened up the doorway for Ginger and I to talk a lot about that stuff. So when I finally got permission to date her and we started courting, I should say, then it was A pretty quick process of six months or so until we were married. But it had been about, it's a
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C
longer time on the front end, probably
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A
about a year plus that we had really been, you know, getting to know each other and moving toward that.
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D
But Ginger, what was your experience about that too? Yeah, I'm dying to know.
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C
Well, it was interesting because that's all I knew. And so I didn't think much of it because a couple of my siblings had gone before and got married and they went through the same process. Jeremy had it maybe a little harder. Maybe one of my other brother in laws too, who went before they had it a little harder because coming in from the outside, like he said, you're not a family friend, you're not in the system. And so they're kind of gonna challenge you a little more. And also being in the public eye, we had a lot of marriage proposals. We had a lot of things come across our plate. And so there was also that weeding out process of just regular, regular. What had to happen?
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A
When she says marriage proposals as well, she's talking like, like letters with like men sending pictures of themselves, like, hey, this is me. Will you marry me?
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D
Wow.
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A
To like people coming around the family at conferences and like hovering around, like trying to.
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C
The moms were the moms.
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A
I don't want to say the moms
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C
were the worst, but they were the worst.
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A
Wow.
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C
But it was an interesting season where they would be like, oh, my son wants to meet you. And he's like, oh, no, no, no, no. So yeah, it was, it was, it was crazy. So I think that there was a process that had to happen. And like we said, we're, we are not anti, like parental involvement at all. There's so much wisdom. I think more young people today need to have godly counselors, wise people in their life to guide them and direct them when it comes to that. Um, our setup was a little different. It was a little bit interesting because Jared ended up filling out this massive questionnaire, which is another part of the story.
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A
Hundreds of questionnaires. A 50 page questionnaire.
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D
Mr. W. 50 pages. Wow.
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C
50 pages of questions.
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A
And as well, he wanted to know everything. It was a, it was a questionnaire that was just given to guys kind of in that circle. And it was like everything about you, your, your family's financial history, sin issues, I mean, everything. Your, your, your theological convictions, political everything,
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C
history, everything from the future, what you had, your 10 year goal, 20 year goal. It's. It was really in depth. So I felt like I knew a lot about Jeremy going into that. And so, yeah, looking back, it wasn't like, you know, it's not something that you probably would choose, but I know that God had a plan and all of it anyways, because it's just. That's how it is with anything. Even looking back at the teachings that I was raised under, I don't have this anger or, you know, bitterness in my heart against even my family for what they were in or the community that I was raised in, because I also see it as God's plan for me and his ultimate sovereignty over it all. And so I think that's something I want to say. But it is fascinating now looking back, because I'm like, oh, wow, that was really crazy.
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D
Like, that was super clear.
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A
No holding hands before you're engaged.
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D
Yeah.
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C
No kissing before marriage.
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A
Can't say I love you before you're engaged.
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C
Yeah. Oh, he said it. And then he wasn't from the culture, so he told me that he loved me.
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A
And you know what she said back?
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C
We had just started talking.
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A
She said, okay.
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C
Okay. Yeah. Like, you love me. Okay, cool. But I wanted to say it, but I was not about to say it because I didn't know what was gonna happen to me if I did. So it's just one of those things, right, that it was so cultural, and I just thought it was like this big deal. Like, he said, I love me. I love you, and now what do
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A
I do with that?
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B
So back to it in a second. But first, let's be honest. Public discourse these days can feel downright chaotic. Between the nonstop noise online and the pressure to always have to say the perfect thing, it's so easy to feel overwhelmed or tongue tied if you've ever stopped and thought, I want to speak the truth with grace, but I'm really not sure how. Then you absolutely need to check out Father Gregory Pine's new book, Trust Training the Tongue. I am so excited to get my hands on my own copy. I've been told it is in the mail, and I'm checking the mailbox every single day. Until then, this isn't just another book about communication. It is a call to action. Packed with real practical wisdom. Training, the Tongue challenges us to take ownership of our words and to rediscover what it means to speak with purpose. In a time when outrage often drowns out understanding, Father Pine reminds us that our voices can help build stronger families, communities, and even restore faith in the institutions that hold this country together. So to all of my fellow Americans trying to Live out their values boldly and faithfully in public and professional life. This one is for you. Let's learn how to speak truth, lead with conviction, and bring a little more order, reason and charity back into the conversation. Grab your copy today@st.paulcenter.com training huge deal.
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D
But what I love the most about your guys story, I think especially in how you tell it so beautifully in your own content and the ministry work that you guys do, is that you represent so beautifully this concept of getting married and going to build your own new family. And I think this is a widespread cultural issue that America is dealing with across the board. Not a uniquely Christian problem or in the church. But I hear from so many other young people and I'm certainly navigating that. I'm in my second year of marriage right now. This concept of leaving your mother and father and going to build something new together and as you did that, you had the chance then to look back on how you were raised and start looking at how do I want to bring some things forward, but also what am I really struggling with, what am I processing in real time and how can I use this platform that God has given me to impact other people in a positive way? What did that journey look like from the time you got married and started building this beautiful new family? And what was the impetus and the catalyst that really made you want to speak out publicly and not shame your family in any way, but to say, you know, I just need to go in a different direction with my life?
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C
Well, for so many years it was something that we were walking through. I was, I was working through what I believed. And I think that many young people go through that when they go to college, when they're on their own. And I was working through that after we were first married. And so it was an interesting process. It definitely was painful, it was hard, wasn't easy. But then on the other side of that, the more that I was coming out of those teachings, there were some circumstances that happened that were very public around my family and a lot went down and no one was saying anything about even like we had just shared so much on of our lives publicly and no one was speaking up for the glory of Christ. It was like, this is what happens to Christian families when you follow Christian values. And it was like, wait, there needs to be a distinction made between actual Christianity, Christian values and legalism, because there's a fine line there. And so when we follow legalism, we think it's going to protect us from all the pitfalls in life. And we think if we just raise our kids a certain way, if we just put them in this certain circumstance, they're going to be fine and they're never going to have any problems. Instead of, as Christians, we see, okay, if we are living as Christians, we're obeying God's word. Yes, there will be blessings, but also we realize that sin is in the world. And so there were, like, examining our own hearts and seeing, like, if we're actually saved, you know. And so there's that side of it where I was looking back and saying, okay, there's been so much harm that these teachings have caused in families with this guarantee for success. They're looking to that as the end goal. And they see a family like ours have struggles and then they're just going to discount all of Christianity. So in that place, I am the last person in the world who wants to speak up because I am more passive, more of a people pleaser, which was my previous book that I wrote. And so talking all about people pleasing. But in that place, I was just praying. And we had talked about it for years, like, should we speak up? Should we say something about the teachings of Bill Gothard being harmful or not? But I was not in a place to share. And also I was very worried about my community, the friends I was raised up, you know, grew up with, and those relationships. I was nervous about losing them. And I wanted to be sensitive and share in a way that was winsome to where if I was going to speak up and write a book or share in any way I wanted to be, where if I said something that one of my loved ones could read it and said, oh, this is something that she's sharing out of love, not out of spite. And so that was my heart, but also sharing the truth, because the truth needs to shine forward. So we were kind of like wrestling through it and we talked and prayed a lot about it.
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A
Well, it was one of those things where being a public Christian family for so many years, they shared the positive aspects of their faith. But then when things started to crumble and go wrong, whether it was Bill Gothard himself being kicked out of the ministry because of all these accusations of horrible actions, and nothing is set. Nobody says anything. Yeah, you go, wait, this is the ministry we've been promoting, or whether it was with Ginger's brother, things that happened publicly. And we go, wait, nobody's saying anything. Like, when things go bad, we have a responsibility to vocalize, hey, this is how we view this. This is how the scriptures view this. And so Ginger got to a point where she's going, well, if nobody's going to say anything, I'll say something. And so that's what instigated her writing, Becoming Free Indeed, which was her theological memoir. Going from those teachings back to Christ to what Christ actually said in an effort really to say, we've got to vindicate the glory of Christ here, because the world is looking on and going, yeah, that's what Christianity is. And Ginger was able to say, well, yes, Christianity is filled with fallen people who struggle with sin. However, those teachings, that's not Christianity. That's actually the opposite of what Christ said on these points. And so I applaud her for that because she is. If you get to know her like she said, she'll let others speak. I'm talkative. She'd rather. But for her to take that stand for truth and say, well, no, I'm going to speak because the glory of Christ is at stake here, I think was really admirable.
- [28:20]
D
How for both of you, maybe it was a different perspective coming from being raised in the Duggar family versus getting married into it was navigating that process with maybe some fear of backlash from your family, certainly not wanting to put a target on anyone's back, not wanting your parents to think that you're completely abandoning everything you were raised with, and yet also feeling that tug from the Holy Spirit. No, I have a vocation to do something about this. This is bigger than me. It's bigger than my family. This is for the glory of God. How did you both navigate that in different ways?
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C
Yeah, I think it was. It was definitely one of the hardest things I've ever done. I think leading up to the book, there were many days where I would just sit there and cry. Cause I was like, I know this is right. Truth needs to be spoken. And at the same time, it's going to be hard. Like, it's just the reality of it. Because I, as much as we will share with loved ones or friends, even in that community, and say, hey, this is. I. I want to share this truth. And I don't have any spite. It's not because of any anger in my heart, but I just want the truth to be shared, it still is going to be hard. And so looking at the. The goal of the book was helpful for me. So I had to be very objective. And Jeremy was very kind to walk me through that, thinking through every day, just the why behind it. Because I saw so many of my friends who grew up in that setting who were Deconstructing, they would tear their faith down to the studs, never to build it up again. And ultimately, they were not true believers if that was the end of where they stopped. But I also saw. Saw so many people who were genuine believers who were in that. Or they were thinking about leaving that setting, and they just weren't sure where to go. And they were super confused when this guarantee for success was given. And then it all falls apart. And so I. I think that we both felt this pull and this need to speak up, to share this message when it wasn't easy. And God gave clarity and he gave peace. And even as we were praying through every single page of that book, it was like. It was a painstaking process. It felt like. I mean, it's kind of crazy. It felt like birth. Like you, like, waiting. You know, you're, like, in the. The process, like, okay, now I feel nauseous. Now I'm, like, feeling horrible. And then you're just at the end and it's all miserable. But then seeing the finished product is, like, so helpful. So I think even now, looking back and seeing how worth it it was to go through that, because so many people have shared that the Lord has used it, and that is only by the grace of God that he's used it. Even for one person to come to freedom in Christ, to see God as a kind and loving savior, not as a domineering taskmaster who is waiting despite you for things that you didn't know that you did wrong, that's worth it.
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B
As new parents, I know Ginger and
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D
Jeremy get this just as much as I do. Sleep is one of the most underrated
- [31:34]
B
parts of your health routine. If you're not actually resting at night, it's a lot harder to show up with energy for your family, for your work, and for the fights that matter. For a long time, I've been tossing and turning, waking up hot and uncomfortable, and just feeling way more drained than I should have, even running on less hours as a mom, which is exactly why my husband and I switched to a Helix mattress. And. And I am genuinely obsessed. Helix has a sleep quiz that matches you to the right mattress based on how you sleep, your firmness, your position preference, all of it. So that you're not guessing and hoping it all works out. When you just order a random mattress online, it's super comfortable. My Helix mattress keeps me very cool at night, and I have noticed deeper, more consistent sleep that makes it so much easier to take on a busy, crazy day. We love Helix so much that we even are switching our daughter to a Helix mattress as we're transitioning her to a floor bed approaching her first birthday. When did that happen? And I know we'll never go back to another brand either. Helix is an award winning mattress brand reviewed by places like Forbes and Wired and they ship it right to your door in the United States with free shipping, a 120 night sleep trial and a limited lifetime warranty so that you can try it out completely risk free. If you're waking up tired, sore or just not feeling like yourself, it might be time to finally upgrade your Mattress. Go to helixsleep.com Isabelle for 27% off site wide that's helixsleep.com Isabelle For 27% off site wide and make sure that you enter our show name the Isabelle Brown show after checkout so that they know we sent you.
- [32:51]
D
Jeremy, I'm curious as you were navigating this role of leading your new family that's so, so important a role that we are often neglecting for young men today. I think there's been sometimes an overcorrection in society with a lot of the cultural issues we're dealing with when it comes to the unique roles men and women are playing that there's a lot of people, including in the Christian space right now, advocating for women not to have a platform or to have a voice or to speak out and talk about some of these more important things. How have you balanced that as the leader of your family and this devoted husband to help shepherd and guide your wife, but to also let her speak freely about these things as God is calling her to?
- [33:29]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. I think all we need to do for the corrective to the overreaction that we're seeing in some of these niche Christian circles or even our culture is to just go back to the word of God. When we see that God looks at Adam and says it's not good that man is alone. It's because he had given Adam a task to rule the earth, to be a vice region. Adam is made in the image of God to represent God on earth and he can't do it alone. So he makes woman. He calls woman Adam's helper. And I think we often forget that the only other person who's called helper, so predominantly throughout the Old Testament, is God himself. He is the helper of Israel. He is the one that Israel goes to in need. He is their strength, Yahweh, Isaiah. He is their helper. And so when we look at a woman made to be man's helper. That doesn't demand that we obliterate roles between men and women because men and women are simply different, miraculously. So you look at how a woman has been created to mother and to nurture and has these capabilities that men just simply don't have. And you go, we should recognize and celebrate and honor the differences between men and women. However, they are two different players on the same team and they're going to the same place with the same destination, the same goal. And God gifts, men and gifts, women, often in different ways, and yet they're helping one another. So my role as a leader is not to suppress my wife, not to put her down and make her less than, nor to suppress the ways God has gifted her. Whether it's a brilliant intellect, whether it's a capacity to lead in a certain way, it's to cultivate those gifts. And as a servant leader, taking my cues from Jesus, I want to help cultivate her, to blossom, to bloom, to be everything that God created her to be so that she can serve God with her gifts, with joy, with freedom. And so I get it. There's some loud voices out there who don't understand the biblical text and wouldn't understand a holistic perspective of it. And how God has created women in his image to be vice regents with men on earth. That doesn't obliterate roles. You know, for your more theologically inclined listeners, that's actually pro complementarianism. We complement one another in our tasks that God's given us to do on this earth. But I see my responsibility and this, you could go right to Pauline text in Ephesians 5, where I'm called to love her like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, completely self sacrificial, laying my life down, considering her interests over mine. And so every day the husband is called to put his wife forward above himself and to present her pure before Christ ultimately. And so in this situation, for my relationship with Ginger, that looked like me going, okay, Ginger's got, she's growing in her conviction. She's got a responsibility based on her context and the world she grew up in. I want to help her understand first of all who God is, to help her reorient her understanding of something that was maybe misaligned or misunderstood. And then to help give her this voice to speak truth. Anybody who thinks the Scripture suppresses women's voices should probably read the scripture.
- [37:20]
D
Yes, they should.
- [37:22]
A
And, and especially, I mean, you look at Paul's commands to Titus and older women are to teach younger women, they are to speak, they are to instruct, they are to have a voice. And just you say, well, yeah, there's a proper place in the order of ministry in the church. And yeah, sure, this is not obliterating roles. This is not obliterating order God gives to his church. But we are to cultivate our gifts and to see those flourish. And as a husband, that's my desire with my wife. I equate it, Isabel, to a gardener. You know, I want to get in in the garden, I want to weed it, I want to cultivate it, I want to, you know, put mulch and water it so that these flowers blossom and bloom. And that's kind of how I see my role with Ginger, is I want her to lead her.
- [38:09]
C
He does a great job of that. I just have to say, like, he is. He's been so sensitive even throughout this whole process. It would be so easy for any guy to get fed up and to just be like, okay, go ahead and like get over it already. You know, like even things that I'm working through, praying through, even if it is something that's more legalistic, he's never been the one to say, you need to just move past that. You need to go ahead and get over it. But like letting me come to those convictions on my own as God's leading me and my own timing has been great and us having conversations. He's just been so patient and gentle and kind. And I think that's what I saw in him even in those early days when it wasn't ideal, it wasn't this the scenarios that he expected to enter like a relationship with me. But he was always very kind and honoring even of my parents wishes and how he would handle a relationship. Even though it was totally not his culture. He abided by it and was very kind and gracious to them. And yes, when you become your own family, you definitely can make those decisions for how you want to operate. But I was appreciative of how he respected that and didn't just, you know, run over me or run over even my family in that time.
- [39:29]
D
That's a beautiful journey that really every young couple has to go through in figuring out how their family is going to be different from their family of origin, how they were raised and what they know they want to take with them, but also how they might want to reinvent the wheel in some ways. How do both of you think we can strike a solid balance between taking the beautiful parts of what we were raised with and Also putting our own spin on how we raise our children and bringing that forward to the next generation.
- [39:54]
A
That's a good question.
- [39:55]
C
Yeah, it is. I initially think. I think we're in a culture where it's so easy for us to just cut off family for very little things. And I say that there are times where relationships will be in really difficult places, or maybe there is a relative that definitely you need to almost cut off because of safety reasons. Um, and there is that. That extreme. But I think that sometimes the. The reaction can be, well, I was so harmed by some little thing that maybe is not so big. And we're so quick to push parents out. We're so quick to push out, you know, our siblings because they offended us in some smaller way even, or maybe a way that was big. And the forgiveness aspect is something that I think we have worked through some things, you know, even in the past, like, with others outside, there have been issues that come up. And I think that in the church, once we realize, like, okay, I was forgiven so much by Christ. And so even looking back at, like, okay, I was raised in this setting that was very harmful. I have, you know, it was the mercy of God that he has brought us through. But looking back at that, there can be pain and bitterness that comes up from that, because maybe I. I feel like there were little elements of things that I wish I could have done that I wasn't allowed to because we were in that strict setting. But looking at it as a whole and saying, okay, I don't want to focus on that, but I want to have. Offer a heart of forgiveness. And it's not just blind forgiveness. Like, I'm just gonna, you know, like, act like it never happened type thing.
- [41:45]
A
Yeah.
- [41:45]
C
I don't know.
- [41:46]
A
But there. You know, there's a distinction, too, of, like, looking. Even Ginger looking at her. Her parents and saying they intended well and they're loving. They love their kids.
- [41:57]
C
Yeah.
- [41:58]
A
So even if you read her book or if you listen to how she speaks, and I so admire this about her, she. She's not just painting with a broad brush. She's, like, looking at her mother and father going, my goodness, they loved us so well. Now they got caught up. And I totally understand why they get caught up. But this teaching is harmful because of this, this or this. But that's not an assault on their parents. It's like, we recognize. I think the best thing for some of these young people who might wrestle with bitterness is to become parents themselves and realize, oh, this is hard.
- [42:29]
C
This is really humbling it's definitely humbling.
- [42:32]
A
Like I remember sitting there with my three year old and going, she's only three. And I'm like wrestling with my parenting. You know, we've got a lot more years to go here. And so that'll give a measure of grace in retrospect. And so I do think a lot of young people who maybe wrestle with bitterness and have a tendency to cut off is because it's what Christ said, if you haven't been forgiven, you're not going to forgive.
- [42:59]
D
Yeah.
- [43:00]
A
So if you haven't experienced forgiveness first from your Savior, you're not going to have any forgiveness to give to others. And so wanting to handle difficult situations and have legitimate questions with mom and dad like, hey, what about this, what about that? And even disagreements where we don't see things the same way today. But then to be able to have an underlying disposition of forgiveness. There's a text in Mark 11 where Jesus says, I think I got that right. Or maybe it was Luke 9 where he says, whenever you stand to pray, if you have anything against anyone, forgive them. And that's a disposition of forgiveness which the Christian is operating out of. So I think that's kind of been a help to us in these situations.
- [43:45]
B
Something I love about Ginger and Jeremy is just how deeply intentional they are with every single thing that they do. And you guys know I am incredibly picky and intentional these days about what I put in my body. Body, especially with supplements. I'm so over the junk brands that happen to say that they care about women, but then they're cutting corners behind the scenes every single time. Which is exactly why I love our friends at We Heart Nutrition, a family owned company from Jacob and Kristen that uses research backed, highly bioavailable ingredients without cheap fillers, artificial colors or sketchy proprietary blends. And they third party test everything for purity and for heavy metal. They sent us an amazing box to
- [44:18]
D
try many, many months ago and we
- [44:19]
B
have not stopped taking them since. And it was absolutely hilarious.
- [44:21]
D
When the box showed up at our door. My husband Brock pulled out the bottle
- [44:24]
B
that said Men's multivitamin, looked at me with the most quizzical look on his face. Am I supposed to be taking these?
- [44:29]
D
Yeah, honey, you actually are. He feels a lot better now that it's part of his daily routine too.
- [44:34]
B
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- [45:01]
D
so, so much more.
- [45:02]
B
Not sure where to start. I get it.
- [45:03]
D
You can take their quick 30 second
- [45:05]
B
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- [45:18]
D
Let's talk about becoming parents because I'm certainly excited about hearing about your guys's journey. I'm a new parent myself. I 10 month old also. She's my first and it is a beautiful journey. Truly the best sanctifying experience we will ever have to understanding how God loves us. You guys have a bit of a unique circumstance coming into parenthood because you grew up in the public eye in particular, Ginger. And I'm having so many interesting conversations with people who maybe were raised by famous parents or they themselves were part of a show that they never had the opportunity really to consent to when they were young. And now they're navigating how to deal with this as parents themselves. Do I post my children on the Internet? Do I encourage them to get out there and become a public figure early? Do I really hyper shelter them from all of these things? There's a whole generation paradigm shift that we're seeing right now, especially with the Internet and social media, on what's appropriate for kids to be involved in while they are so little like this. And parents have that ultimate responsibility to shepherd their spiritual guidance and their safety and innocence. What are you guys talking about at home about this and knowing what you know now, would you raise your kids with some of that public attention the same way that you were raised with?
- [46:28]
C
Well, it's interesting. When we first had kids, we talked about that and we were still filming at that time when we had our first and our second. And it was one of those things where we kind of thought we would shift away and protect their privacy. But at that time we were under certain obligations that we couldn't. So we were sharing them on just the show. And so stepping back from that, once the show ended, we immediately went into like, we're not sharing our kids on social media. Maybe the back of their heads. If they're, like, in pictures or whatever, but try not to make them the focal point, even if what we talk about, we don't want them to be necessarily the selling point for anything we're doing. And that it kind of. A lot of it did come from being raised in the public eye. There were definitely times where it was very beneficial. We had a lot of opportunities handed to us. We had a lot of sweet experiences that we got to have that we wouldn't have if we were not on the show. But then also, the downside is when you walk through challenges, when you walk through trials in a public space, it puts a lot more pressure on you to have to perform. And as a child, I did not want that for my. I mean, as an adult, I didn't want that for my kids, looking back. So I was like, would that have been more helpful to not have them at all on TV when I was. When we first had them? Yes. But we just slowly faded out. And it's kind of one of those things that I think the Internet is evolving, and there's so much happening that we just don't know. And so for us, we just feel like it's just right.
- [48:11]
A
Yeah, it's a fascinating cultural topic. I mean, because everybody. It used to be like the Duggars, for instance, were kind of at the start of this reality TV boom. And so their family was an experiment. And you look at, like. It's like the Truman show, right? You look at children who are raised under this microscope. Well, now, you know, if you look at the Roloffs or you look at the Duggars, and you look at these families that were raised on tv, that was very unique to them. Well, now it's not unique because everyone's on social media. So everyone's got their own reality show. And so kids are being raised. You know, they're embarrassing moments. Moments. They're going to look back and go, mom, why'd you have. Why'd you show that? Now it's. It's unerasable. And so I think parents do have a stewardship and a responsibility to think through social media in a way where, for me. And you're going to call me old. Don't call me a boomer. I'm not a boomer. But I was in high school when MySpace came out, and I am so glad, like, MySpace and Facebook came out, even towards the end of high school, because I was an idiot. It's like we had no conception of, oh, this will be on the Internet forever, and our bosses will Be looking at this. And so parents have a responsibility to steward the privacy of their children. Childhood is hard enough as it is. Like we're going to talk about with our book you Always Belong, challenging or helping kids in these challenging situations to amplify that with television, reality TV or even social media. I'm not saying it's wrong, like it's not in the category of immoral, but it's in the category of stewardship and wisdom. Parents need to be thinking very intentionally about the why. And I think unfortunately some parents will have to come to the conclusion if they're honest with themselves. The reason our children are on the Internet is so that we can make money from this content.
- [50:10]
D
Yeah.
- [50:10]
A
And you just have to ask like is that, is that wise for your children?
- [50:16]
D
So, so important.
- [50:17]
A
Not saying that they're. Independence, motivation.
- [50:19]
D
Yeah. Beautiful segue into your guys new book which I know is the primary reason we wanted to have you on right now. I'm so excited, excited for you to share this with our audience. Can you give us a glimpse into what's next?
- [50:31]
C
Yes. So this is our kids book you Always Belong and this is a book that we wrote because I had just written People Pleaser, which Jeremy has the book there, he's going to hold it up. There's the book People Pleaser. I had, I wrote that book and it was talking about my journey coming, you know, to some more balance in people pleasing because I struggle with it so much. And I realized that a lot of those tendencies started when I was super young. So as a kid I wanted to like obey so much, you know, my parents. And then as I was a teen, I was looking around at my teen friends and I developed an eating disorder. And I leaned into that for a while because I thought that's how I was going to gain acceptance and approval. And then in motherhood I was wrestling with that, you know, just thinking like okay, what are other moms around me doing if they eat only organic food? I'm going to hide my unhealthy snacks when they come over. Try to please everybody around me constantly. And so we wanted to write a kids version because we had a couple instances with our little kids that really propelled us into this journey of like we want to be able to break it down and say like what would be helpful for them to use as a tool going into normal life to be able to, to have a, an understanding of who they are made to be in Christ.
- [51:52]
A
Yeah. If you look at like Ginger's journey that she talks about people pleaser People pleasing and the fear of man comes from a lack of having confidence in your own identity. And so you're going into relationships needing something from them. Yeah, like, Isabel, I need you to validate me. And so I'll do anything to have you validate me. And so then we start doing, or not doing certain things. You see the bully picking on the little kid at school and you go, I should stop that. But then they'll laugh at me and I need them to like me. So I'm not going to do what I know is right. And there's one day when Felicity, she was probably five or six, came jumping into my truck after class and she was about ready to burst into tears. And she said, daddy, they were laughing at me today. And then she did start to cry. And you know, you go, oh my goodness, I'm not prepared. How do I. What do I say to her? Yeah, you know, my instinct is to go. You wait in the car, go into the school and tell the teacher if that ever happens again. But that's not setting her up for success. Do I tell her, like, hey, you don't need those kids. Forget those kids. Oh, really? Like I'm gonna have her walking into school rejecting community. How do I help her little mind shape a situation like that? So as Ginger and I were talking about it, we realized, like, we want to give her a foundation of confidence in who she is. If she's a young girl made in the image of God who has a relationship with Jesus Christ, she can operate from a place of security. And so when people don't approve, her whole world doesn't crash in. And so we told her, we said, let's see, God's not laughing at you like he's. Even if they're making fun of you, God's not making fun of you and he's with you. Even with a sense of security, Mommy and Daddy aren't making fun of you. We also did tell her too, like Felicity, sometimes you do some things that are really funny. You should be able to laugh at yourself.
- [53:50]
C
And that's what happened in that instance. We found out later that it was. She did something cute and they all thought it was really funny, so they
- [53:57]
A
were laughing with her, you know, but she.
- [53:59]
C
She took it as them laughing at her. So, yeah, I think that. But giving them a framework of knowing that you always belong when you're part of God's family, I think that's something that we all need to remember. And in kids books, it's amazing how much we can learn from A kid's book.
- [54:15]
B
Oh, my God.
- [54:16]
C
As adults reading, and I'm like, oh, I needed to hear this today, actually. Like, let me just read that line again.
- [54:22]
D
I was reading to my daughter the other night before bed, and I found myself tearing up at the kid's book. And I'm thinking, they do not write these good enough for me to get through bedtime, because I can't. I can't. It was so funny.
- [54:32]
C
And especially postpartum, let me just say,
- [54:35]
D
don't I know it. Yeah, the hormones speak for themselves there, too. But there is so much wisdom in a children's book. My mom actually has a great kid's book on her bookshelf at home that says everything I need to know in life, I learned from a children's book. So I love that you guys are jumping into this. I will have to send you a copy for sure, but in our last few minutes, I know you're so, so busy promoting the new book and all of the beautiful things you're working on. I would love for you to share just a message of encouragement with our audience on this idea that we're constantly under a microscope in so many different ways. Our culture is incredibly volatile. It's very divisive. And we are regularly attacking the things that we know to be good and true and beautiful in society, faith and family being chief among them. It's so easy to pull out some of these extremist examples and really bad people or bad visions of what that might look like as the hallmark epitome of what faith and family is all about. But what I love about your story is every day you're waking up with the beauty and the humility to go to God and look for the real thing every day. How can other young people embrace that? And how is that going to be really one of these elements that saves our culture from all of this anger and divisiveness?
- [55:46]
A
So my mind goes to First Timothy, chapter 2. The apostle Paul tells us to pray for our leaders. He's speaking about governmental political leaders in order that we might lead peaceful and quiet lives, godly and dignified in every way. We can't control all of the chaos of politics and the chaos of geopolitical tension around the world. We pray for our leaders. We do what someone like yourself is doing, Isabel, which is speaking truth into those spaces. But then our first priority must be our own integrity before the Lord. The ultimate goal of having political leaders who allow us to exercise freedom is that we might live lives that are quiet, dignified, and Godly so, if we're not doing that, if we haven't worried about our own home, to have integrity, which means to be the same person, you are out there behind closed doors. If, if we're not pursuing godliness, if we're not pursuing dignity and beauty, then why are we fighting for those freedoms that would allow us to live in that way? And so focusing first and foremost on seeking first the kingdom of God, ensuring that we know our Creator are living in light of his mercy and grace, and then seeking to demonstrate the love we've been shown from Christ to others, even in difficult situations, even in the midst of the fight, because there are real battles that are happening and we are engaging those battles in a very real way. And yet to do so in a way that reflects the love of Christ, who is our premier example, we don't want to forget or take lightly the reality that he walked this earth and he gave us the way, and so empowered by his spirit, we can follow his example.
- [57:48]
D
That's so beautiful. Ginger, I'll give you the last word. Any last words of wisdom for young people today in navigating faith and family and that pursuit of ultimate truth. More importantly, having the courage to proclaim it even when it's hard.
- [58:03]
C
Yeah, I think that Jer, Jer said it very well. I don't know if I could say it any better, but definitely, I think for, for anyone who is looking to stand firm in their own faith, get involved in a good local church if you're not already, because that's where you're going to find the community and the strength to even speak up on hard topics that maybe the culture around us is not willing to speak up on, and having that group of people behind you who are encouraging you all the way and you're learning about God's Word and growing in him together, I think that's so invaluable, so beautiful.
- [58:37]
D
I am so grateful for both of your voices in this crazy, messed up world we live in, encouraging people to find what is good and true and beautiful and build it ourselves. I am so hopeful to meet your beautiful family in person sometime soon. And I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of your new kids book, remind people where they can buy it if they can already, and how they can continue following you and all of the things your family is up to.
- [59:02]
A
Yeah, publisher Zondervin Kids. You can find it on Amazon. Probably the easiest place to go or wherever you get your books is the standard line. You can check out our podcast, the Ginger and Jeremy podcast. Follow us on the socials injervolo eremyvolo on socials. And yeah, we're around.
- [59:18]
D
Awesome. Thank you guys so much.
- [59:20]
A
Thanks Isabelle.
- [59:22]
B
So, so deeply grateful for Ginger and Jeremy both joining us on the show today. Don't forget, you guys can pick up a copy of their new kids book, you Always Belong in the link in our show notes for today. And as a reminder, because I know it's been a while since I've reminded you, if you guys are ever wanting to catch these longer episodes completely ad free, you can join us on Daily Wire plus as a member over there to make sure you see every episode of the Isabelle Brown show with no ad reads and some extra special little opportunities for some fun behind the scenes content that only exist on Daily Wire. Plus, hope to see you guys over
- [59:51]
D
there and I hope you have a great weekend. See you Monday.
- [59:56]
B
Sa.