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- [00:02]
A
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- [01:00]
B
The Harvard Human Flourishing program is one that I work with quite a lot. They just released their global study on human flourishing with Baylor and Gallup, and one of the initial findings was that there was actually an inverse relationship between the prosperity of a society and its composite measures of human flourishing. Meaning middle and low income countries that were safe actually had people who were flourishing more than prosperous societies.
- [01:21]
C
Wow.
- [01:22]
B
So we've got this kind of prosperity paradox now where the richest people, the richest societies in the world, we're safer, we're more materially prosperous than we've ever been. But we're not happier, we're lonelier, we're angrier, we're more disconnected from one another, we have fewer relationships. And that's one of the things I think we need to focus on is in the midst of this prosperity that should have given us freedom to pursue these things, why have we gone off track?
- [01:59]
C
Buckle up because we're about to talk about everyone's least favorite subject. What a way to start an episode to make you watch all the way to the end. Money. But please don't go anywhere because this is one of the most important conversations we've ever had on the Isabelle Brown Show. I don't know about you, I didn't grow up talking about money a lot around the family dinner table or with my friends. I certainly never learned anything valuable in the American education system about building wealth, investing, saving to buy a home, how mortgages work, how to pay my taxes every year. Thanks Obama. Among other who got us here. But I am seeing an interesting generational paradigm shift wanting to talk about building wealth in a responsible way. And as our generation is leading a Christian revival across Western civilization, we have important questions to ask ourselves when it comes to our values and how they intersect with money, how can we follow Christ's commands to give everything we have to those who need it the most and to practice generosity while also still building a legacy that we can share with our loved ones and those we will leave behind eventually, namely our children? This is one of the best conversations we've ever had for our Friday Interview series. And I can't wait for you to hear what John Coleman, bestselling author, has to say about how Christians should navigate building of wealth combined with generosity and not to let money become the root of your identity. Let's jump in. John, I am so excited for you to be joining us on the show today to talk about your book and everyone's favorite and maybe least favorite subject in the world, money. For those that might not be familiar with you, can you give us an overview into who you are?
- [03:29]
B
Yes. So my name's John Coleman. By day I run an investment firm called Sovereigns Capital, which is an explicitly faith oriented investment firm. I've spent 20 years in the investment management industry and then for about 15 years I've been one of Harvard Business Review's principal writers on flourishing, purpose and meaning. And so this book is a nice intersection of those two things, this finance career I've led and this study of purpose and meaning that I've taken on.
- [03:53]
C
Oh, I love that. And that's a perfect jumping off point for us to jump into this because I think it's uncomfortable for so many people, especially people of faith, to talk about money as one of these taboo topics because it's often, rarely, or I should say rarely, not often discussed in Christian circles and in communities of faith, money is really presented far too often as the root of all evil. And so we just stay away from it. And that's totally understandable what we see in society and the fruits of so much of that with very corrupt individuals and bad actors with bad intentions. But you posit a different point of view a little bit, that money can ruin people's lives, but it doesn't have to be the root of sin and evil in the world. Can you explain that to us?
- [04:31]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So my point of view is that money is not inherently evil. And the Bible does anything. In 1 Timothy it says the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And indeed, the Bible talks about money more than almost anything else. 2,350 verses. It's one of the things that's addressed most frequently. And often they are cautionary tales. But my point of view is that money is a tool or a gift just like any other that can be used for good purposes or bad purposes. And the reason the Bible and so many other ancient traditions talk about it is it's uniquely tempting. It has asset facets to it that can lead people astray, even though it can be used for great good in the world. And so part of why I've started writing about this is I've seen people go both really good with money and really off track and bad with money. And so I wanted to figure out how can we situate money in the context of a flourishing and good life? Because I think it can enable that.
- [05:29]
C
What does scripture have to say about that? Where can we find our inspiration there for human flourishing? Yeah. Finding that middle road. Yeah.
- [05:36]
B
Well, I think that if you look at the Bible, for example, there were a lot of the great figures of the Bible who were blessed with incredible wealth. Abraham was one of the wealthiest people of his day. David, Solomon, others. And often they were explicitly given that kind of money or wealth or power so that they could use it for God's purposes. And so I view money as like any other gift that we're given, whether that's talent, whether it's empathy, whether it's a talent for interpreting Scripture, Money can be a tool that some people are very good at creating. The parable of the talents in Matthew, for example, is a broader analogy for God giving us gifts and us using those. Well, but it's very explicitly about money, too, where he commands us if he's going to give us resources to multiply that and to use it for his purposes. And so I think money itself is kind of a neutral thing. Right. It's a gift that can be given just like any other. The question is, what impact are we going to have with that and how are we going to use it, and what mindsets guide that? And are they anchored in a view of human flourishing that's connected to Christian scripture, to what we know about what makes the good life? Or is that focus on money something that impedes your ability to flourish rather than enables it?
- [06:49]
C
I'm a big believer in ending on the high note, so let's start on the low note. When we talk about this contradiction, really, between money as a tool of evil and money as a tool of good. You say often in your works that money has the capacity to ruin people's lives.
- [07:03]
B
Yes.
- [07:03]
C
Why is that?
- [07:04]
B
Oh, gosh, again, it's uniquely tempting, and it becomes such a focus for people. So if you think about what's attractive about money. It is a clear scorecard. Right. If I think about the intrinsic things that make a flourishing life positive, relationships, character and virtue, service to others, mental, physical and spiritual health, those can be difficult to measure. They can be a little amorphous. We're both parents. Investing in your kid is such a beautiful thing, but it takes a long time for that to materialize. You don't often know how you're doing. Money has immediate satisfaction to it. You know how much you have, you know how much others have. It's kind of like physical possessions too. And so we're attracted to these things that are clear by which we can measure ourselves. It's also a dominant focus of societies that are prosperous, like the United States, in many cases to our detriment. Right. The Harvard Human Flourishing Program is one that I work with quite a lot. Led by a great guy named Tyler Vanderweel, they just released their global study on human flourishing with Baylor and Gallup. And one of the initial findings was that there was actually an inverse relationship between the prosperity of a society and its composite measures of human flourishing, meaning middle and low incomes countries that were safe actually had people who were flourishing more than prosperous societies.
- [08:20]
C
Wow.
- [08:20]
B
So we've got this kind of prosperity paradox now where the richest people, the richest societies in the world, we're safer, we're more materially prosperous than we've ever been. But we're not happier, we're lonelier, we're angrier, we're more disconnected from one another, we have fewer relationships. And that's one of the things I think we need to focus on, is in the midst of this prosperity that should have given us freedom to pursue these things, why have we gone off track? And at. At the micro level, you can see this in individual examples. So studies of lottery winners, for example, they go bankrupt at something like 10 or 20 times the general population. Wow. They commit suicides at higher rates than general population. NFL players who receive these big paydays as an example, go bankrupt at something like 16% over a 10 year period, whereas for the general population, it's only about half a percent or 1%. And so you see this sudden influx of money, sometimes very acutely destroying people's lives. And then at this macro level, we can. That prosperity is not actually making us happier or more fulfilled because we've lost our focus on what is human flourishing and how to achieve that.
- [09:27]
C
Yeah. So how do we define that? I know Harvard is studying this in depth. What are those key markers that determine whether someone is Flourishing or not.
- [09:35]
B
Yeah, I love two frameworks. There's one from the University of Pennsylvania, a guy named Marty Seligman who talks about a perma framework that's positive emotions, engagement, relationships, meaning and purpose and accomplishment. And the one I've really anchored on in the book is from Ty Vander Wheel and the Harvard Human Flourishing Project. And they say that there are effectively five intrinsic goods that enable human flourishing. That is meaning and purpose in our work and in our lives. That's spiritual and mental and physical health. It's deep, positive and meaningful relationships. Right. It's happiness and life fulfillment, and it's character and virtue. Are am I living in a way that's aligned with my values? And you achieve that through the ways you engage society. So religion, family, education and work, those are the pathways. They've actually added a sixth characteristic of human flourishing, which is financial and material stability. But they've kept it separate from those other five because those first five are intrinsically good. You can't have enough character and virtue. You can't have enough fulfillment, you can't have enough purpose. And each of those enables one another. So if you're high character, you'll have better relationships. If you have great relationships, you'll feel more meaning and purpose. Financial and material stability is not an intrinsically good thing. It is simply a by which we achieve those more important ends. And in fact, as I talked to Tyler, it's the one of those six characteristics that can compete with the others. So if you become too focused on money, you can lose your focus on relationships, you can lose your focus on your character and virtues. And in so doing, money becomes not an enabler of those positive and intrinsically good things, but an impediment to them. And so that's the delicate balance you have to walk when considering it.
- [11:23]
C
It is so fascinating for me to hear you outline those five intrinsic the things that we all should be pursuing as a society. Because from my vantage point as a gen zer in particular, I would argue and posit that our society is not achieving any of those five. In fact, we're very much hurting for any sort of fulfillment in any of those five categories, whether that's our health, our relationships, our mental well being, our spirituality. And you're watching a little bit of a pendulum swing on all of those things now in response to this rock bottom that I think we've hit throughout my lifetime. But all of that is happening with a generation that received virt no financial literacy education whatsoever. I never once in my entire education pathway, I Was very fortunate to attend private schools my entire life until college, when I attended a public university, never once received any sort of formal education about money. How do you pay your taxes? How do you save to purchase a home? How do you make sure that you know how to set up a budget? And I know many people have in this country. But more often than not, the people that I'm talking to in my generation never learned any of these things in their education pathways and certainly never talked about money at home with their parents to set them up for success moving forward. Forward. So it seems to me like we have a lot of room to improve in all six of these categories, money included. But do you think that there's an important intentional education gap that was setting up this generation for failure? And how did we get there?
- [12:44]
B
For sure. And if you look at culture right now with Gen Z, I'm an old millennial, Isabelle, we will throw you under the bus.
- [12:50]
C
We'll accept you as a refugee. I know we're a cool generation.
- [12:53]
B
I've got a son who's like Gen Alpha now. So I'm learning all the slang. The cultural messages really are destructive. If you look at things like the manosphere or even the Instagram world, the education you get about money is money means I'm better, that my worth is connected to my net worth. It's my cars, it's the attractive people I'm dating, it's the watches I have, et cetera. It's all these bad messages. And at home or in school, we're not really getting that right. The last chapter in this book was actually explicitly about money and kids, because I think one of the biggest gaps, and I'm the parent of four young kids right now who we're taking through this, actually, and apprenticing in this, is that parents haven't taken on explicitly this idea of apprenticing their kids about money and anchoring them not just in practices like invest early, save well, give generously, but in the values and mindsets that precede that. So one of the things I encourage parents to do is to start not with money itself, but with setting a family mission, vision, and values. And this was something I've learned from my mentors. You know, I'm in the investing world. Every company has a mission, vision, and values. But our most important organization, our family, we typically haven't been that explicit. We may raise our kids in church. They may absorb some of the great lessons of our faith, for example. But in our house now, we have a mission that we follow that's kind of perpetual. We plagiarized it from the Bible, so
- [14:19]
C
it's to live just for us. I think God will forgive you for that.
- [14:23]
B
Yeah, the copyright's over. And to walk humbly before God. We set a vision for the kids, which is to raise healthy, well adjusted, independent Christian adults who want to spend time with us in each other. And then we have simple virtues because our kids are young, which is kind, curious and courageous that we want them to exemplify. And then we connect all of the lessons about money to those characteristics that mission, vision and value. So I think as a family, it starts with being intentional about what do we believe and what do we care about? And then how does money fit into that? And I think the start of that is parents apprenticing, right? Not just getting a book, not just leaving it to schools, but taking kids through the decisions at age appropriate levels around earning, around spending, around investing, around giving together so that you're all in it together and your kids are even holding you accountable for the things that you're teaching them. And that's a much more enriching lifelong education in both the practices and the values around money than simply teaching them a few tricks or taking them through a financial literacy course, as important as those may be.
- [15:27]
C
I love this concept. It is reminding me of a conversation I just had a few weeks ago with a friend, Lila Rose, and we were talking about the mom as like the CEO of the household enterprise. And nobody really talks about it like running a business, but it really does take that level of dedication and often outsourcing some of the lower level chores to make sure that you can remain the 30,000 foot CEO of your family household, your family enterprise. But this concept of apprenticeship is really interesting to me and I love this because I think so many well meaning parents who are financially stable or even financially wealthy don't ever want to talk about money with their kids and even set up a formal allowance routine or the idea of earning money with their children early on because they don't want their children to be spoiled. So is there a way to navigate this without making your children feel entitled? Do we give them money? Do we not give them money as we raise our children? And how does that more formal apprenticeship concept look from a practical perspective?
- [16:22]
B
100%. And this is honestly, in writing about it, the place I learned the most because I had an opportunity to sit down with wealthy families who were incredibly high functioning, who still loved one another, who operated well after seeing some cautionary tales. And so my family learned a Lot, lot. A couple of the practices that we've embraced, we do give the kids money allowances. We've embraced a ledger system and we actually use physical ledgers like actual paper. Some people use green light or other online platforms and they earn money through their chores or extra jobs that they do or like. My daughters had a little earring business they set up over Christmas.
- [16:58]
C
That's so sweet.
- [16:59]
B
Sold earrings out of our driveway with hot chocolate and made a little bit of extra money. And we keep entries for all that they've earned there. And then they're allowed to give, save or spend out of that right. And this applies to our 5 year old through our 12 year old. the end of the year, we monitor everything that they're doing, so we have to approve what they're doing, but they're spending on the things that they want because they're learning the value of money. At the end of the year, if they've saved, the bank of mom and dad will give them a return on their savings, like investments. And then we've started the practice of having a family generosity session around Christmas where we sit down, we give the kids a little bit of money that they can give to one of approved charities. We have six approved charities now after a false start, because kids will choose crazy things to give to sometimes. But we sat all four of our kids down and we said, we're going to give you this much and then you can give as much as you want out of your ledger and we'll 10x what you give to that particular charity. So we'll multiply that. And it was the most beautiful session. Isabelle this is the first time we'd done it in that way because we didn't know how much they'd give. And one of the charities we'd chosen, one of my daughters has a complicated health issue and we chose one of the charities that supports kids like her. My oldest son, very first thing he did was said, I'm giving to that health charity that's good for Libby And I'm giving 100% of what I have. And then three of the four kids said, I want to give 100%. And it was, it was so convicting because a, as a parent, you're like, I was, you know, tearing up as they were talking to see my son care about a sister like that. But we were convicted because we were like, man, that is a heart for generosity. Like, if they can keep that. It was convicting to my wife and I and we ultimately didn't let him give 100% because we, we thought that wouldn't help them learn some of the other things. We capped it, but we topped him up. But practices like that are important. I've started taking my oldest son to work with me sometimes on work trips. Exciting ones. Like we visited movie sets. The boring ones. He sat in investment consultant meetings with me in a suit and tie at 12 years old just so he can learn. Like when dad goes to work, he's not just cashing a paycheck, like he's doing something that's meaningful to him. And we want them to learn that when you earn, you should earn with purpose. You should have an impact on the world through your job. And so it's, that's apprenticeship. It's giving them insight into the adult world at appropriate age levels. My 5 year old doesn't do that yet. And letting them mature alongside you.
- [19:26]
C
Yeah, back to it. Learning how to responsibly manage our money from a biblical perspective with John in just a second. But first, if you are anything like me, you probably love the good parts of the Internet, but you also probably side eye what's out there for teenagers. I've got a little girl at home now, and even though she is light years away from having her own phone, I'm already thinking about what it's going to look like when inevitably she does ask mom, can I have an Instagram? That's why I'm really glad. Instagram teen accounts now build in automatic protections from day one for teenagers. By default, teen accounts limit who can contact contact a teenager on Instagram so that they're getting messages from people they actually know, not random strangers who are sliding into their dms. It's also designed to keep their content experience positive and age appropriate. And for younger teens under 16, they can't loosen those default safety settings without a parent's approval, which means you stay involved in the big decisions about how your teen is using Instagram. As a mom, someday when this becomes a bigger part of my parenting journey, I want to actually guide my daughter's online experience instead of just reacting after something goes horribly wrong. And these teen accounts give us more tools to do exactly that. So if you've got a teenager in your life or a future teen like I do, check out Instagram teen accounts and see how these automatic protections can help them connect more safely online. Learn more@instagram.com teen accounts. It takes me back to thinking about scripture with the idea of give everything you have, right? If people ask more of you, keep giving more. And that certainly was something I was loosely exposed to. I grew up in the Catholic Church. I'm still Catholic today. And there generally is the expectation that when they pass the plate around every Sunday, you're expected to put something into it. They send you giving envelopes every month in the mail to make sure that that's a normal part of your family routine. But I don't think people often articulate that out loud and express it so intentionally. That this is part of our responsibility as Christians to give in some capacity. We are called to do that by Christ. How do we navigate that balance between give everything away and also make sure you're stewarding financial stability for your family and for yourself?
- [21:16]
B
That is such a great question. And Isabel. And the first thing I would say to Gen Z audience through a boomer audience is get in the game and start giving and do it consistently. Even within the Christian church, giving rates are low. So right now in the United States, only around one and a half percent of GDP is given to charity each year. And we're twice as high as any other country in the world. There's no State over 4% right now.
- [21:40]
C
Wow.
- [21:40]
B
And even among Christians. So about 4 out of 10Americans don't give anything at all during the the year. And Christians only give it about, about 65% of Christians give anything at all during the year, which is, wow, that's
- [21:52]
C
lower than I expected.
- [21:53]
B
And, and that's not even like 10% or 15%. That may just be. I went through the grocery checkout line and I, I topped up my charitable donation. So in general, we have this crisis of giving in the country. As Christians, we are called to be generous with others and to serve others. But one fascinating thing I found in the research is even if you were just a selfish person, even if you only cared about yourself, generosity is one of the greatest unlocks to human flourishing. In the research that you can possibly get, it's regularly top two or three relationships is usually number one, generosity is usually their number two or three. And it even has physical benefits. So if you look at people who are generous versus those who are not, those who are generous have lower incidences of heart attack, lower all cause mortality, they have lower incidences of depression, depression, they have higher social engagement, they have better relationships, et cetera. So there are all these psychological and physical benefits and it helps the world. And so one of the things I've been trying to push to people is don't wait until you get. Because a lot of people say I'm going to get rich and then I'll give it away. I'm going to earn. I think you should start becoming a percentage giver right at the beginning. And that means taking off the top of whatever you own, living on the rest. The rate of that is something for you to choose if you don't have a lot of resources, if you're living hands, maybe that's only a couple of percent, because that's what you can spare, right? The widow and her might. In the New Testament, she gave what she could. As you age, as you become more wealthy, maybe that's 20, 30. I know people who give 100% now of what they make away, but start with that practice. And if you do that, it anchors you both in holding money loosely, meaning you're not idolizing it. It becomes simply a tool. And it anchors you in the mindset of, I am here to create wealth not just for myself, but to solve problems for other people, to help who are in the greatest need. And, of course, that's what Jesus commanded us to do as well.
- [23:50]
C
I want to get into practically how you've been doing some of that and advice that you have for other people, but you said something interesting there about idolizing money and making that really the center of your life. I don't think most people who do that even realize cognitively that that is something that they've done and certainly has become such a normal part of secular culture in the west today. You mentioned the manosphere, the. The bro podcasters, the. The alpha males that I see all the time on my social media. And really, it is creating this idea for young men especially, that the only way to say that you've made it and that you're successful is to drive 15 Lamborghinis and eat at a Mushlin Star restaurant every night and go move to Dubai into, like, a $12 million house. And I'm hearing a lot of this as the life plan and the vision board and the goals from young people on college campuses. When I'm on college campuses a lot. What does Christianity say about wealth? How can we get it right? And how can we make sure that our income doesn't become our identity?
- [24:45]
B
Oh, gosh, such great questions. You know, there was this Wall Street Journal poll recently that reflects what you've said. They surveyed what do Americans value? Right? And they did that from 1998 to present. Value in family had dropped off a cliff. Value in religion had dropped off a cliff. Patriotism had dropped off a cliff. There was only one characteristic that mattered more to people now in terms of what they valued than in 98, and it was money, right? Because as we've had this spiritual crisis as a country, as we've experienced this crisis of pur. Many people have sought, wrongly, I think, to place their identity in this thing that's tangible that you can see that actually does provide a comparison. There are a couple of psychological principles at play. One is this idea of the comparison trap, and that's related to another called hedonic adaptation. In psychology, the comparison trap is the idea that we're not happy with material things based on our absolute level of material wealth. Because in America today, we're wealthier than. Than any place in any part of the world ever in the history of the world we get our happiness out of. How wealthy are we relative to the other people? I see social media, my neighbors, the people at my school, and we fall into not being happy with what we have, but constantly wanting to outdo those who are around us. I mean, this is a story as old as time Keeping up with the Joneses. It's something the Bible explicitly warns about. To not be covetous of others, to not be envious of others, because they knew that would be God, knew that that would be a trap for people. And underlying that is this cool psychological concept called hedonic adaptation, or the hedonic treadmill. And what that means is when you get a material thing or a new standard of living, you think it's going to make you happy. You get a new car. It's the car you've always dreamed of. You're happy for like a day, and then the next day, that's your baseline, and you're like looking at the new car. You're looking at the new house, the new watch, the new vacation home, the new vacation. And so psychology in human beings is why, for unending acquisitiveness, we always want more. And so if we're not reflective about not placing our identity and value in our material possessions, with which money is an enabler, then we can easily fall into defaulting to this one thing that we can see and measure, right? That's easier to measure than relationships, our impact on others, the purpose that we have, right? Those are a little bit fuzzy, even though they're much more enriching. Money and stuff. Stuff is what you can see, but it's a trap, right? Because there's no one in the world. I've hung out with billionaires who will walk in a restaurant and know who's ahead of them on the Forbes 500 list. And that's Just a terrible psychology. It's a treadmill. It's a race that you run forever without ever being able to get off. And I think people think when they're a low income, if I just get a little bit more, I'll be happy. The truth is, unless you're reflective, unless you define a standard of living ahead of time, a financial finish line that gets you off that treadmill, you're always looking a little bit up that chain and you're never going to be satisfied.
- [27:48]
C
Do you think social media is playing a role in creating false expectations of what everybody else has? I certainly see it in the influencer world, right? People who, like, rent designer clothes, certainly you don't own them. You're paying 100 bucks a month, but you're wearing an $800 jacket when you're giving a speech, and all of a sudden people assume they must be making so much more money than I am. The pressure feels so intense. What is that manifesting like in American culture right now?
- [28:11]
B
100%. And this is where I'm so empathetic to Gen Z, Gen Alpha. As an old guy, I grew up before this was so readily accessible. And when I was a kid, I was born in a trailer park in central Florida. My dad was a rodeo cowboy. Actually, we lived a little. Single. Yeah, I know I'm a perpetual disappointment. I'm like, writer, nerd. My dad was like a rodeo cowboy. That's. I'll be a perpetual disappointment. But, you know, I never really thought of myself as poor because you just saw the other people that you lived around in that trailer park or in the apartment complex that we moved to. So there was always comparison. But our world was smaller, right, because we couldn't see everything. Now in the social media era, not only do you have visibility into everyone in the world at all times, you've got these social media personnel who are putting on a show, right, who really exaggerate what they have. You're right. I know extremely well people you would think are extremely wealthy who are driving exotic sports cars on leases, who have mortgages they can't afford, who are wearing watches they can't afford just to keep up impressions. And I think that's particularly epidemic on Instagram or TikTok or elsewhere, where the whole monetization scheme is around seeming like impossible. Have it all, the private planes, everything else. So if you're some kid in a trailer park, like I was, you're not just looking at your neighbors anymore. You're on TikTok thinking, how does everybody else in the world have private jet rides and cool watches and fancy cars, and that must mean that they're better than me. And I think that that's a real danger. I think social media in general is a danger to young people now and their ability to achieve purpose. And I think the way the world has become small and the way that we're projecting those images into people's brains has just absolutely set on fire that comparison trap that we all have and made it without boundaries. You're not just looking at your neighbors anymore. And I think that's particularly dangerous if people don't get their hearts right and develop these values within themselves that make them resistant to that kind of temptation.
- [30:11]
C
That resistance is so important. And I am seeing that start to manifest in certain ways with our generation, not just financially and talking about money, but in so many different other value areas as this clapback to the broken culture that we've been living in. And I'm so hopeful for that. I think for most people, the overcorrection that this might look like could be complete denial of all material possessions and this idea of no one should own anything and then we'll all be really happy. Right? And I do see a lot of people articulate that down to billionaires telling you you will own nothing and be. So we're not all called to a radical vow of poverty. God does call some of us in a vocation to steward wealth in a responsible way and to build things, as you've been mentioning. You are a beautiful example of that in your investment portfolio. Can you give us a little bit of an insight into how you and your family have approached that and how others with opportunities and wealth can do the same thing?
- [31:00]
B
Yeah, totally. And I'll be the first to say this is not meant to target anyone. It's totally okay to have nice clothes, it's okay to go on vacations, it's okay to have a great house for your kids. So this is is. I'm not a socialist in that respect. I'm very much a capitalist. I write about investing in the book a bit. My day job is as an investor for a group called Sovereigns Capital. And our mission is to love God and love our neighbor through investing. We're an explicitly faith oriented investment firm. And so we seek market rate returns. We're capitalists. We want to generate high returns because the people who invest with us are churches and colleges and mission groups and we want to create capital for them. We want to return the talent so that they can go do their missions incredibly well. But we want to weave the positive values of Christian faith within that by trying to create human flourishing. We do that in a bunch of areas. There are less exotic examples. Like we've got this beautiful company that is the largest used fire truck company in America and they bought a wildfire defense company with it as well. And it's a way in which we see flourishing in those employees. We get to empower municipal fire departments all over the country. We actually had trucks out in the Los Angeles fires, helping to fight those for a period that we brought in from elsewhere. And so you see how even these eclectic Main Street America businesses can be run in such a way that the people within them get great purpose from their work and have a positive impact on others. And then the more, the more glamorous stuff that my kids like to visit more. We've done some entertainment investing, for example, so we were privileged to be the lead investors in a movie studio and streaming platform called the Wonder Project, where I get to serve on the board now. And we saw a need to create great cultural artifacts in the faith and family friendly world to bring positive messages of courage, resilience, love, hope, faith into the world. And that's been incredible. The team is amazing. It's people like John Irwin and Kelly Merriman. They produced that Amazon show, House of David, which I got to visit in Greece for a little, which is incredible. A new TV show called It's not like that, which is about a pastor who's lost his wife and the way in which he and his family grapple with that. The new Nate Bargazzi film is a wonder project, actually. And then alongside that, more recently, we've even invested with a guy named Bear Grylls, who's an outdoor adventure star. And so we're his production partner now, creating stories of hope, courage, resilience, strength, sacrifice that are also fun on tv. So I think this use of cast capital is incredible, the impact we can have on the world while also seeking to return that capital to these great missions. And it's fun for my kids to be a part of. Like, they see how our family isn't just going a job to get a paycheck, but we're on a mission. I want my kids to be on a mission with their work. I want them to believe in what they're doing. And the fact that I'm able to do that and I'm privileged to do that is something I hope inspires them to try and do the same with their own lives.
- [33:58]
C
Most of the people who watch the show and who follow me on social media are under the age of 35, which is so fun because we're really just figuring out life as we know it. Right? We're redefining ourselves every day in our 20s. We're getting married, we're having babies, we're starting careers, we're changing our majors in college. And it's fun for us to start to answer these questions earlier in life of who do I want to be and where am I going? Where is God calling me to go? Not everyone obviously can invest in. In the Bear Grylls of the world and create entire movie studios and do all of this. But what would you say are the key concrete steps that somebody who might be watching this today can take to make sure their life is lived with a sense of purpose and mission and direction and to start investing, either literally or more metaphorically, in their future and how they can give back to their community?
- [34:42]
B
Yeah, the very first step, I'd say. And this can start at any age, especially in high school or college or in young adulthood. Think about what matters to you. What is your conception of the good life? You don't have to believe the framework I outlined. You may have a different one. You may research it and do your own thinking on it and define something different, but actually come up with a conception of what do I want my life to mean right when my funeral is happening 80 years from now? What do I want to have accomplished with that life? What relationships do I want? What family do I want? What type of person do I want to be? And anchor your whole life in those values and that conception of the good life that you. Because most of us are. I was not reflective of that. When I was in college. I took my first job at an energy hedge fund out of college where I was like the world's worst energy trader because it paid a lot and it was a miserable experience because it wasn't my calling. I didn't feel missional. I was doing it because I had this financial insecurity because of the way I had grown up. And it was a great learning for me. I wish I had anchored more concretely in those values. And then I would say seek to connect your professional decisions. Like, one of the biggest decisions people make is about what job they're going to take and what spouse they're going to marry. I think spouse is actually more important than job, which is a whole other question.
- [35:57]
C
I would agree with that, actually.
- [35:59]
B
But a lot of people have anxiety about, like, what's my purpose? And my last book, the HBR Guide to crafting your Purpose was all about this idea of professional purpose in life. And I think that most people don't have a single calling. I think we go through phases where we have different callings. I think we have multiple sources of purpose in our lives. And so I tell you, young people, don't have anxiety. Don't look for the perfect thing. Figure out what type of person you want to be. See what opportunities might match with that. But always prioritize building purpose and meaning into the career that you're taking. Whether you're a cashier or a bus driver or an investment banker, don't settle for not having a sense of meaning and purpose in your work, because that influences your relationships. It wastes a huge chunk of your life. And, and I think there are ways, concretely, you can build purpose into almost any job and seek to craft a career and a personal life that are deeply reflective of those values. And then money comes into play in providing you the financial and material stability to enable that. Right? And so there are practical tips, like, I think young people now with the Trump accounts, parents should help. Start when kids are infants.
- [37:09]
C
That's huge.
- [37:10]
B
$10,000 invested to today at 10% over 40 years is worth $750,000 without any additional investment. At 15%, it's like $4.5 million. At 2%, it's 25,000. So start investing today. Start saving today. For a lot of young people, I would counsel, never let your net worth go negative. Don't mess around with credit card debt. Be very careful about auto debt. Mortgages are a little bit different. Be very cautious about student. Student loans, which I think is there's like, $1.7 trillion in student loans now, and that's trapping a lot of young people, even people my age, in this cycle of debt that prevents them from building a financial foundation. Make smart decisions about educational expenditures. Don't take an education you can't afford. Don't lock yourself into a debt cycle right away. And then just very thoughtfully bake in these principles of generosity. First, living, next, next, making sure you're saving a little and just be disciplined, because if you do that, you build the financial flexibility so that you have the agency and autonomy to choose the careers and live the life that you want, rather than feeling trapped by your financial decisions.
- [38:22]
C
Last question for you is a fun one. They say money can't buy happiness. And I think that the more I've grown and evolved and matured in my life, the more I'm realizing that to Be true. Certainly in the world that I live in. I observe a lot of wealthy people, we live in Washington, we rub elbows with all the crazy politicians that are making unbelievable amounts of money in the stock market. Still waiting for that to be taken care of legally, by the way. So somebody do something about that. But it's interesting to me that many of the people I meet with the highest net worths and the biggest bank accounts are often the most miserable people I've ever come across in my life. Totally. And there's never going to be a net next thing that satisfies them. At the same time, obviously you want financial security for your family and all of that, but in this generation that many experts are saying is dealing with a happiness crisis.
- [39:06]
B
Yes.
- [39:07]
C
And young people who don't know how to find joy in their day to day lives, how should we be able to balance that pursuit of wealth and stability? But also, more importantly, and baked into our culture in our 250th birthday, that pursuit of happiness that is so, so key to western culture.
- [39:22]
B
And this is where the prioritization of those things that will genuinely make you happy makes a big difference. Right? We all need to be disciplined about our finances. No one, I remind people in the book and in my life it is much harder to be poor than to be rich. Having done that both. And around the world there are people who suffer from desperate poverty. People now in our country who suffer from poverty, who are single moms who are just getting by. Those people deserve our greatest help, our greatest attention. Jesus called us to care for the world widow and the orphan. So I don't want to discount that at all. And that's a different set of problems to deal with for most of the people in your audience who are just starting out. Maybe they're not in financial distress, they don't have a lot, but they're thinking about building. The question is, what are you building towards? And do you keep the right set of priorities even as you're disciplined? Discipline is the biggest part of building a financial wealth portfolio because it's small decisions compounded over time, consistent instantly. It's not these big outcomes typically, but how do I prioritize the things that will really make me happy? One of my favorite studies in the mainstream world is called the Harvard Grant Study. I don't know if you've encountered this. It's the longest standing longitudinal study in the world. It was started at Harvard around 80 years ago. Now they surveyed over three years, college sophomores I believe it was, and they followed them over the entire course of their lives. So it's been going on for 80 years. Most of the participants have passed away now. Coincidentally, John F. Kennedy was one of the participants who they were surveying. And they studied all the things that make people's lives go off track and on track out of this Harvard cohort. And when asked to summarize the primary finding after 75 years a few years ago of that study, the lead researcher said that happiness is love, full stop. The number one determinant of whether people had happy and fulfilling lives was the depth and breadth of the relationships that they'd cultivated with their kids, with their spouses, with their friends. I think so often we allow a maniacal focus on acquisition to impede our ability to focus on serving others, building relationships with others, loving others, including loving God. I'm a person of faith anchoring in Christianity and your faith tradition. If what you're trying do to to achieve materially takes your eye off the ball on those things, your priorities are out of bounds, right? As long as you keep those central and you're disciplined. And some of us are blessed to have the types of talents that do create enormous wealth. Investors, entrepreneurs, et cetera. That's wonderful. We need those people. Just like Abraham and David. We need those people to do that. But they also need to be anchored first in these principles, what will truly make their lives fulfilled that's aligned with the way that we're created as humans. And remember that the money stuff is subservient to that. It's important, but it has to be in service of the things that matter. More.
- [42:12]
C
John, I'm so excited for people to read your book. Actually read it. It's important. I know people don't read books anymore apparently, but I'm a big believer in actual book. And there's an audiobook. Great. Where can people find it and get a copy and continue to follow the amazing work that you're doing?
- [42:26]
B
Yeah, it's all over the place. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore. If you want to follow me, I have a substack called On Purpose John Coleman, which you can Google at a website. John williamcolman.com if you want to get in touch.
- [42:37]
C
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today.
- [42:40]
B
Such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
- [42:41]
C
Thanks again to John for joining us here on Set in our beautiful Nashville studios for our Friday interview episodes. Just as a reminder, if you ever want to watch these longer episodes completely ad free, make sure you're subscribing over on Daily Wire. Plus to join us over there, there. And please go pick up a copy of John's book. Good Money. This is a fantastic read. I know you guys are going to love it for your homework. We will see you next week. Quick reset Something practical. Tik Tok is packed with free workout plans, home training, fat loss recovery routines, muscle tips. No coach fee, no gym contract. Just follow and move. Download TikTok now.