B (14:17)

Come on. She tied for fifth place play.

A (14:19)

She's brave. She's famous for complaining. Famous for fighting for women.

C (14:23)

Famous for her hate.

B (14:23)

She stands up for what's right.

A (14:25)

She stands up for stands for exclusion. Only one opinion matters to me. Hers. You guys can Visit the Truth fits.com and use code ISABELLE for 20% off your first purchase with xxxy. J.K. rowling tweeted about this in a very, very long tweet, but I think it's an important one. And she's been such a beautiful voice for young women. She said this A young D transitioner, Fox varian has won $2 million in damages in a medical malpractice lawsuit in which she sued the psychologist and the surgeon. I'll be curious to see how psychologists and psychiatrists start talking about this after the surgery organization has now come forward and said they don't approve of this anymore. She sued the psychologist and the surgeon who approved her for a double mastectomy at age 16. This young woman's mother testified that she had been against the surgery but was pressured into agreeing because she had been told that unless her daughter transitioned, she was likely to commit suicide. I hear this all the time from detransitioners, by the way. Chloe Cole has told me this story about her situation. Multiple, multiple, multiple times the line especially in places like California that doctors are using when they look at parents who are a little on the fence. My kid is 15. My kid is 12. My kid is 16. In this case is it really that severe that I need to mutilate their body? I need to castrate their breasts off of their body. Are you sure? The line that these doctors always use is, mom and dad, would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son? That's the choice that you have to make.

C (16:08)

So.

A (16:08)

So if you don't want your daughter to kill herself, we're chopping off her breasts today. Basically, it's disgusting, it's evil, and it violates every single principle of do no harm. A line which, by the way, is complete marketing. It's not backed by science, it's not backed by any evidentiary support whatever. In fact, the suicide rate, we have found, goes up once you go through gender transition. Typically, it does not go down once you go through gender transition. I mean, for goodness sakes, these crazy, crazy transgender activists have literally said this before the Supreme Court of the United States. Years ago, a lawyer for the ACLU was point blank asked by Justice Samuel Alito, is there any evidence for any of these treatments whatsoever? And they said, no. Like, they just admitted this in front of the Supreme Court. So we've known this is happening. Take a look at this.

C (16:56)

Do you maintain that the procedures and medications in question reduce the risk of suicide?

D (17:06)

I do. Justice Alito maintain that the medications in question reduce the risk of depression, anxiety, and suicidality, which are all indicators of potential suicide.

C (17:16)

Do you think that's clearly established? Do you think there's reason for disagreement about that?

D (17:21)

I do think it is clearly established in the science and in the record. I think, as with all underlying questions of looking at evidence, there can be disagreement. I don't dispute that. But here, and, and sort of going back to questions about the cast review, for example, the cast review only looked at studies up until 2022.

C (17:40)

Well, I, I don't regard the cast review as necessarily is, as the bible or as something that's true in every respect. But on page 195 of the cast report, it says there is no evidence that gender affirmative treatments reduce suicide.

D (18:01)

What I think that is referring to is there is no evidence in some, in the studies that this treatment reduces completed suicide.

A (18:09)

So really, really interesting that even the trans activists, the loudest people fighting for this, have admitted before the Supreme Court of the United States, that was complete marketing. It was complete bs. We don't actually have any evidence to support that. But, but of course, as a parent that's hurting for your child, that is so desperately in need of wanting to feel comfortable in their own skin, you would do anything to support your kids. Any good parent who loves their children would. It's disgusting. J.K. rowling continues and says this as the floodgates open, more and more detransitioners will sue clinicians who subjected them to an unregulated medical experiment. Gender identity activists will almost certainly continue to ignore any evidence that fails to support their preferred narrative. And they will keep insisting that hardly any transitioned people regret their irreversible procedures, that gender clinicians know exactly what they're doing, that surgeries cross sex hormones and puberty blockers are of proven benefit, and that minors who are denied these treatments will kill themselves. All of this is a lie. She quotes here a British endocrinologist named Leighton Seal, speaking at a conference in 2021, who admitted in the UK we are doing procedures here where we don't have any outcome data. None. No scientific evidence whatsoever. A woman from Utah said that she felt gender clinicians like her were making it up as they went along because I feel like we're all just winging it, you know, and that's okay, maybe you're winging it too, but maybe we can just like, wing it together. That is a direct quote from a clinician in Utah cited by the Free Press, an article we'll come back to in a second. I love how she concludes this this will go down in history as one of the worst medical scandals of all time. Adults inside and outside of the medical profession sold troubled young people like this d transitioner, who was awarded money in the lawsuit, the idea that all of their complex trauma would be resolved by just removing their healthy body parts. As more and more detransitioners arrive in court, the public will learn the full extent of the harm done to kids in the name of an ideology. Clinicians performing these treatments in quotes will go down in history as barbarous activists who betrayed a sacred oath to do no harm. But we should never forget how many people outside of the medical profession urged these young people on, gleefully assuring them that anyone advising caution was an evil bigot. There are people in elitist professions like publishing and academia, not to mention politicians and celebrities with young fan bases, who did all they could to champion the idea of gender identity and kept pushing it, even as evidence of harm rather than help, continued to mount. They are just as culpable as the clinicians, too lazy to think more deeply than the fashionable mantras that got them social media likes. Too arrogant to look at the evidence from anyone outside of their political bubble. They have slurred whistleblowers and attacked Anyone with valid questions. In doing so, they have created a cultural climate without which this appalling tragedy will would have never taken place. Never forget. Because only by learning the lesson can we stop this from happening again. I am very hopeful that in 2026 we have learned our lesson. And this is the first domino to fall, both in the lawsuit side and in the statement and huge change of pace and attitude from the medical society's side that we are done transing children. We are done brainwashing adolescents at the most vulnerable part of their life, where everyone feels uncomfortable in their own skin that the only way to truly love yourself and for others to affirm you is to mutilate you, which logically makes no sense and causes more emotional harm than ever. But I worry. I do worry. I think most people worry that we actually haven't learned our lesson because we've known that this has been happening for. For decades in America. This is not new behavior. This is not new from a clinician standpoint. And I worry that because it's not been polite conversation to have in polite society, and there's really only been a very small handful of us in America with the courage to talk about this publicly for the last several years, everyone is saying, oh, my gosh, this is the first time that I've even heard about this. The Washington Post has really never covered this before. The CBS News has really never covered this before. CNN has really never covered this before. How did I not know that we were chopping off the genitals of children? I mean, they've been telling you this for a long time. It's been known for a very long time. But very few people have had the courage to talk about what it really is, which is abuse. It's abuse and it is mutilation and it is torture of children. But the media doesn't package it that way, ever. Back in 2011, 2011, ABC News made a video special titled Boys Will Be Girls about transing children in 2011. And this video is now recirculating on X this week, going viral all over again, because it feels awfully too similar to what we're hearing about right now. Listen to this. Dr. Olson had a decision.

B (23:30)

You are in the perfect place to start on blockers.

A (23:33)

And she promises to begin giving her estrogen female hormones in two years, around 13.

B (23:41)

That's what I think. Yes, you're not going to develop breast buds on the blockers, but you're not going to wait until 16 to start. You know that. Okay.

A (23:51)

Josie received the blockers as an implant in her arm. Okay if you cry. So with all the bravery she could muster, Josie held on tight as another chapter opened in this young girl's life. A lot of times it strikes me that had this happened just 20 years ago. Thank you. I wouldn't have been able to give her blockers and she would have had to go through male puberty. That terrifies me. It's all done. Do you want to hug? I don't know that she would have survived male puberty. So for the record, that's not a girl. That's a boy. That is a biological boy who is being held down screaming, ow. On a doctor's office clinician table while an implant is showing, shoved into his arm to block male puberty from ever happening. This person was 11 years old when this happened back in 2011. Mom says, I'm terrified. What would have happened if I wasn't given access to any of this for my child. Why are we not terrified of the fact that an 11 year old child is being held down by multiple adults who are supposed to be those who protect his innocence. The trusted experts to have experimental drugs shoved into his arm that block the natural progression of his body. Why is. Why wasn't that terrifying to us 15 years ago? And this is just the stuff that's covered by ABC News. As a mom, especially watching this now, I actually want to throw up. It was bad before, but especially once you have a child. Back to it in a moment. But first, are you a mom like me? A human like me, Someone struggling to get a consistent eight hours of sleep? I say this as I'm basically barely holding my eyelids above my eyeballs while we're recording the show. Two hours late because my daughter woke up every 30 minutes last night. And yeah, we're just. We're in the thick of it, of new parenting. I don't sleep at night, but the very limited amount of sleep I do get is a huge priority for me in 2026. Because if I'm not arrested mom, there's no way I can show up to be a good mom tomorrow for my daughter or a great wife for my husband or a great podcast host for all of you. Finding the right mattress is a huge component of all of this. And making sure that good sleep is a priority for you too. And that journey to seems really overwhelming when you take it into your own hands. You type in Mattress on Amazon, 8 million choices show up. You're like, I couldn't possibly understand what's going to help me get the best sleep Possible. But finding the right mattress doesn't have to be difficult. And our friends at Helix actually make it incredibly straightforward with their Sleep quiz, which matches you to the perfect mattress based on your specific sleep needs. They are not just another mattress company either. Helix is the most awarded mattress brand out there, with glowing reviews from major publications like Forbes and Wired. And it is not, I can assure you, just marketing hype. 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That's helix sleep.com Isabel we've known this was happening, so I'm hopeful that this signals a major societal shift. But I think it depends on Our continued courage to demand accountability and to demand that this is not merely a blip on the radar from the American Society of Plastic Surgeons or one particular lawsuit, but that this is indeed the first domino to fall. Because whether we like it or not, the vast majority of the medical institution in America is not waking up to this reality, despite the fact that one medical society has and that many other countries around the world have woken up to this. Further accountability must be demanded by good people seeking real justice for these children who have been taken advantage of and abused by what should have been the trusted adults in their life. Just in case. It's confusing to anyone, by the way, because I realize if you don't come from the medical world or you didn't come from the science world, you may not understand what something like the American Society for Plastic Surgeons actually is. These medical associations like the ama, the American Medical association, or the. The American College of Pediatricians or the American College of Obstruct Obstetricians and Gynecologists, acog, all of these groups, medical associations, are often mistaken for regulators in that what they tell the people in their field, their particular specialty, is all of a sudden law. But they are not regulators. These organizations have zero regulatory power whatsoever. They're basically just elitist clubs. They're private membership organizations. They're clubs of researchers and clinicians typically involved in that particular specialty. And they issue recommendations to all of the plastic surgeons or all of the pediatricians or all of the OB GYNs or whatever, based on internal consensus from the people leading the elitist club. Their statements, like this one that the Washington Post is covering from plastic surgeons can be really effective. They can carry a lot of weight and influence, but there is no authority, There is no legal authority whatsoever. And they don't replace actual regulation from a legal perspective in America. So if we're really serious about preventing this from happening, I think we have to call upon Congress as well, moving forward to actually ensure that our children are not being mutilated by physicians and that those who dare to do so will be criminally prosecuted and held accountable to the highest extent of the law and be locked in prison for the rest of their lives. But that requires our courage and being willing to speak the truth and more of these medical societies in being willing to speak the truth. Because as we know, the American Society of Plastic Surgeons was the first major medical group yesterday in America yesterday to officially say, yeah, gender transition surgeries for kids. Not safe, very harmful, actually, Sorry, we've been encouraging them for the last 20 odd years or so, we're going to reverse course and we're probably also going to recommend to all of our other buddies and all of the other elitist clubs that hormones and puberty blockers are just as dangerous. For the record, the American Medical association, one of, if not the biggest and most important clubs associated in these medical societies, almost immediately followed up to this statement from physical from plastic surgeons. And they said in a statement to the National Review that because the evidence for gender affirming surgical intervention in minors is. Oh, there's that word again. Insufficient for us to make a definitive statement. The AMA agrees with the ASPs that surgical interventions in minors should generally be deferred to adulthood. But the American Academy of Pediatrics, where most of these kids are getting shoved into gender transition in the first place, just last December a few weeks ago said that proposed restrictions anywhere in the country with new state laws to gender affirming care are a baseless intrusion into the patient physician relationship. They concluded their little press conference and press release last December a few weeks ago saying the American Academy of Pediatrics remains committed to ensuring that all children, including gender diverse youth and children covered by Medicaid, receive care that is backed by science, delivered with compassion and offered without political interference. But they're not really interested in anything backed by science because there is no science to back child gender transition. So the American Academy of Pediatrics still has to reverse course if they're serious about protecting kids. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists that often participates in gender affirming care that I really think we should be following the Trump administration's lead here and rebranding to sex, denying treatments. Because that's exactly what it is. It is. Denying your biological sex says that they support clinical and psychosocial meaning, psychiatric mostly care for adolescents and adults. They wrote this in the abstract of one of their most recent statements on this the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists supports the provision of appropriate and evidence based care for transgender and gender diverse adolescents. Well, newsflash, there is no evidence, There is no evidence, there is insufficient evidence to even be promoting this in the first place. But they hide behind this word science and they hide behind this word evidence as if that's somehow giving them the thinnest possible veil facade of credibility when they're saying, yeah, it makes perfect sense for us to chop your child's breasts off. It makes perfect sense for us to do bottom surgery on your 16 year old when there is no evidence to do so whatsoever. The American College of obstetricians and gynecologists OB GYNs points you, then they don't want to take responsibility for it. They point you to the Endocrine society, which is the elitist club for all the endocrinologists, the people that work with your hormones. And they say this. We suggest that adolescents who meet the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria or gender incongruence, of which by the way, there is no diagnostic criteria anymore. It's been taken out of the DSM as a psychological situation that people are dealing with. It's not considered a mental illness anymore. So as we know you, you can just walk into a planned parenthood as a teenager. Today they brag about this on their own website and walk out with testosterone in hand, same day, no history of gender dysphoria. So there is no diagnostic criteria. But the Endocrine society says if you are a teenager, an adolescent who meets this diagnostic criteria and you are requesting treatment, you should initially undergo treatment to suppress pubertal development. We suggest that clinicians begin pubertal hormone suppression after girls and boys are first exhibit physical changes of puberty in adolescents. Teenagers who request sex hormone treatment, given this is partly irreversible. They admit that on their own website. Finally, no one wants to admit that in the media or in this conversation. In America, we recommend initiating treatment using a gradually increasing dose schedule after a multidisciplinary team of medical professionals have confirmed the persistence of gender dysphoria or gender incongruence and sufficient mental capacity to give informed consent, which most adolescents have by age 16.

B (36:40)

16.

A (36:43)

So even though you're only 16 years old, you probably don't even have your driver's license yet you can consent to an irreversible chemical castration of your body per the American Endocrine Society. How about the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry? The mental aspect of all of this, especially since this has now been taken out of the DSM and not considered a mental health problem anymore. They say this on their website as their policy statement on access to gender affirming health care. They endorse the primacy of the patient flow physician relationship, AKA it's totally between someone and their doctor. Don't ever try to interfere with it, even if what they're doing is evil. And they recommend that all children, children and adolescents have access to multidisciplinary evidence based and trauma informed gender affirming health care, even though there is no evidence. Show me the evidence. Show me the money. They recommend that youth and their families formulate an individualized treatment plan with their clinician that is developmentally thoughtful and addresses the unique youth's mental health needs. They strongly oppose any efforts, legal, legislative or otherwise, to block access to interventions for gender diverse youth. And they support funding for continued research on the evidence base for and efficacy of gender affirming care. So government, give us more money so that we can prove what we're doing is right so we'll feel better about it. And also, if lack of evidence exists, don't do anything about it. If there is no evidence, we're gonna go fake some, we're gonna go make it up. Give us money to go continue doing research so that we can keep doing this to children. And don't at all ever remotely suggest a legal or legislative ban to protect kids. That's where the vast majority of the American medical establishment is at. The elitist club of pediatricians, the elitist club of obgyns, the elitist club of endocrinologists, the elitist club of psychiatrists for children. All unequivocally, unanimously say we are going to continue transing your children. And how dare you ever suggest otherwise. Never introduce a ban on this because that makes you, you the evil bigot. Even though we're hiding behind the words science and evidence to permanently and irreversibly mutilate your children, we're the good guys. The only way this is going to change is with public pressure. It is. Luckily our public pressure doesn't look quite as insane as it does up in Minneapolis right now. From the other side, our public pressure looks more like passing laws and protecting our kids from this stuff. Homeschooling our children instead of putting them through the public school system, putting stuff out on social media. But it's only going to happen. The dominoes are only going to continue to fall if good people have the courage to stand up and speak the truth. Period. Full stop. In other countries, that's already happening. But for whatever reason in America, we are so far behind the eight ball here. And parents especially are so afraid to address this. Why? I don't know. Parents should be louder than any group on the planet in wanting to protect our kids from this type of insane abuse by the medical system. But as we know, the UK at the end of 2024, put out a ban on puberty blockers. Not just surgeries, indefinitely, based on experts advice and many, many studies that they conducted in the uk, finding zero evidence, insufficient evidence that this should ever have happened in the first place. The Health and Social Care Secretary at the time named Wes Streeting said In December of 2024 children's health care must always be Evidence led the independent Expert Commission on Human Medicine found that the current prescribing and care pathway for gender dysphoria and incongruence presents an unacceptable safety risk for children and for young people. The UK has the courage to say it. Why don't American parents? Why don't American physicians and medical associations? In Sweden several years ago they put out a massive document related to their National Health Service and said that they were going to be issuing caution in the use of hormonal and surgical treatment. They said this at the group level for adolescents with gender dysphoria as a whole. The National Board of Health and Welfare currently assesses that the risks of puberty blockers and gender affirming treatment are likely to outweigh the expected benefits of those treatments. Negative recommendations are therefore given as guidance to the health care system on treatment with puberty blockers, gender affirming hormones and mastectomies. You shouldn't be doing it for adolescents struggling with with gender dysphoria, except what they say in exceptional cases. They follow that up by saying care must be provided on the basis of scientific evidence and proven experience according to the principle of doing good and not harm. Sweden's doctors have the courage to follow the Hippocratic Oath. Why don't American medical associations? To my understanding, I have many friends and family still in medical school as we speak. They still have to take the Hippocratic Oath. We still make doctors take this. And yet there are hundreds if not thousands of doctors out there full throated in support of mutilating your kids with zero evidence for the reason to do so. Why? Because good people have gone along with whatever the loudest voice was screaming at you that you were the evil bigot if you wanted to protect kids, not the other way around. Denmark has covered this in the last several years. They said this Proper guidelines are needed for young people with gender incongruence. Gender affirming medical treatment for children and young people with gender incongruence is associated with considerable uncertainty and serious risk. Existing guidelines fail to provide sufficient protection against potentially harmful interventions and lack the necessary support for prudent conservative approaches in primary care. AKA just because you can, should you? No, they can answer that question. Why can't the United States of America? The really ugly reality to this I mentioned a brief quote from this earlier when I was reading J.K. rowling's tweet to you was recently covered by the Free Press. And it's that we know there is no evidence. Doctors who are screaming at the top of their lungs have said, well, we're doing the evidence based thing and we're supporting kids based on what science tells us to do. They'll say that publicly, but in reality, you would be hard pressed to find a single doctor in the United States of America that could actually give you evidentiary support for gender transition of children end of adolescence. There, there is none. It doesn't exist. So would be hard pressed to find that the Free Press published a really long expose in December quoting these physicians at their conferences that they hold in support of gender dysphoria. Look at this headline. We are all just winging it. What the gender doctors say in private, in footage obtained exclusively by the Free Press, gender doctors acknowledge that they perform life altering procedures on vulnerable youth with no supportive evidence and they are proud of it. I don't know about you as a mom. Don't feel comfortable with my daughter just being a lab rat and a guinea pig. Don't feel comfortable with children who cannot reasonably consent to irreversible chemical or physical castration being used as a political pawn. Because that's exactly what this is. Ultimately, you should read this Free Press piece if you have any later time today because it is shocking and incredibly eye opening even to those of us that have been following this for many, many years. And especially talks about how most of the kids taken advantage of here are our daughters, our people assigned female birth. But they include one little standout of this article in bold red letters that I want us to pay attention to in our conversation today. More than 7 in 10Americans, including more than half of Democratic and Democratic leaning voters, believe minors should not be offered puberty blockers or cross sex hormones. The trusted institutions and the people are not on the same page at all actually, because the vast majority of the elitist clubs, the medical societies, the elected officials, the loudest voices in our society, the media are insisting to their dying breath with very few exceptions, and the dominoes are starting to fall. But very few exceptions. We are the good guys. Anyone trying to stop us are the bad guys. Science tells us, and we have to follow the science, that kids are going to literally kill themselves tomorrow if we don't mutilate them today. How dare you suggest otherwise? But the vast, vast majority, 70 plus percent of our country of the real people, wildly, vehemently disagreeable, where is that discrepancy coming from? Because the people haven't had the courage to stand up and say something about it for all of the right reasons. I don't blame you for that. We get kicked off the Internet, we might lose our jobs, we'll lose our friends that we've had for many, many decades. Family members may stop talking to us. After all of this, you don't want to be that parent in your kid's school. You don't want to have to tell off the school principal. You don't want to be uncomfortable talking about things that are really uncomfortable to talk about, like top surgery and bottom surgery. Who even knew kids were being exposed to those conversations in the first place, right? I didn't know as a parent, I had to talk to my kids about this. I hear this all the time. And I don't blame people who have failed to stand up and speak the truth, even to their own children, because the sheer amount of societal brainwashing that keeps people quiet is so wildly overwhelming. But today we have an opportunity. The dominoes are starting to fall. If we now have the courage, the 70 plus percent of us in this country that believe the truth, that there is no evidence to transition a child, if we have the courage to stand up and speak the truth now, to never go backwards in the other direction, I want to leave you with this today in our last couple of minutes together. As I've said, we've known that this has been happening for years and years and years. And I don't think we can keep using the excuse of I had no idea it was this bad. As we go into the second half of this conversation and watching these dominoes start to fall, tipping them over ourselves. Years ago, I had our beautiful friend Chloe Cole on my show well before I ever joined the Daily Wire to just talk about her experience as a d transitioner and everything that she was told as a teenager going into gender transition. And there's a couple of clips that I want to share with you, but I want you to hear her story powerfully and poignantly as just one of thousands of examples of young 20 somethings that are out there today who will never live a fully normal life because good people sat down and shut up and said nothing. Here's Chloe Cole explaining that not a single doctor in her life ever double checked ever asked, are you sure that you want to go through with puberty blockers, transitional hormones, and even surgery? Not a single doctor ever asked you, are you sure? Or wanted to clarify that?

B (49:36)

No, I mean, not. I mean, sure. I had consent forms for each of the treatments, but no Nobody had ever really pushed back on the idea that I was a boy or that I was transgender. And frankly, they couldn't, because in my. In my state, I. I live in California, right. There are laws in place that prevent doctors from basically doing their job. Any sort of pushback against this. Against this idea that a patient is transgender could be considered conversion therapy.

A (50:12)

And as I mentioned, these doctors are so insane and want to push the envelope so further down the train here that it's not just about making sure that kids are okay with all of these things. They actually say to parents who are wrestling with whether or not these interventions should ever be happening in the first place. Would you rather have your kid kill themself or go through these experimental surgeries? Listen to this. You've shared on previous interviews that there was a really common phrase reported over and over and over again in your doctors talking to your parents and counselors talking to your parents. And it had to do with, you have no other choice, basically. Would you rather have this type of daughter or this type of son? Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

B (50:56)

They didn't use that exact phrase, but it was that same idea. They told my mom and dad, like, well, this is what your child's identity is, and children already know what their gender identity is from a young age. It's something that a child, that a person just innately understands, and if you deny her this, there's going to be consequences. They started. They started citing the suicide rates. I think they inflated it a little bit. The usual statistic that these activists and doctors usually use is roughly about 41%. But I think my mom and dad told me, they said it was almost like 50%. And they were basically convincing them that if I wasn't allowed to undergo this treatment at the age that I was as I wanted to, then it was going to be life or death for me, that it was very likely that they were going to end up with a daughter who was suicidal and obviously very potentially dead. So they were given this. This choice between having a suicidal and very likely dead daughter or a living transgender son. That's the ultimatum they were given by my doctors.

A (52:09)

What I find the most compelling about Chloe Cole's story in particular is that she did undergo what we call top surgery in the more friendly way, colloquially, but actually is a double mastectomy, a very radical surgery that is completely scientifically unnecessary, where both of her breasts were chopped off when she was only 16, 15. 16 years old. And the way that she talks about this, I still Think about this multiple times a week, years later, after we did this interview, and we've remained in touch and great friends, and she's an amazing voice for young women. But I cannot imagine the pain and the grief and the internal reckoning that she has had to deal with coming into her twenties now without such an important aspect of her womanhood. Listen to this. And then that brought you ultimately, at 15, to your top surgery. That is the general glossy term that the community really likes to use, but really we call it a mastectomy in the medical world with the surgical procedure itself. What did that journey feel like? I've often heard from detransitioners that they kind of mourned the loss of such a big part of their female identity. Was that something you had to deal with? And coming out of transitioning, going back to your womanhood, is that something that you still think about regularly?

B (53:31)

Yeah, I mean, it's. It was one of the hardest, hardest parts of my tragedy of my transition for me to go through, and it still is one of the hardest things for me to reconcile with, because that part of me, I mean, it's not like I can get. Just get a new pair of breasts, right? Yeah, it's likely that I don't. I'm already. I'm still having complications from the procedure, and, I mean, chances are I'm not going to have enough tissue to. To get a reconstruction. And whether or not I do, it's never going to replace the original form or function or sensation that once was there. But that feeling of regret came very, very soon after I underwent the surgery within, like, the next, like, month or two when I. I. So the type of incision I got was called a double incision with nipple grafts, meaning that they made two incisions into each breast. Right. And they. They took out tissue, leaving some in to leave what they called a more masculine contouring of the chest. And they also removed my areolas, and they grafted them into a different position on my chest to again simulate a more masculine appearance. And when I woke up initially from the surgery, it was like. It was this feeling of wow. Like, the. The hardest part is finally over for me. And now, once I'm fully healed, I'm going to be able to take my shirt off. I can change in the locker room without having this weird thing on. I don't have to wear this. This binder anymore that's gonna pop up from the collar of my shirt and, like, invite all these. These questions about what I'm wearing. Right. And I'm gonna be able to go shirtless, swimming. I'm gonna be just like any other boy my age. And I'm never gonna have to worry about this part of me ever again. But it wasn't true. None of that ever ended up happening because I never fully healed physically or psychologically. I started to realize in the coming months that was actually starting to miss my more feminine form, that I wanted to look more like a girl. But I couldn't. I couldn't admit to myself that this was the way that I was feeling. Even as I started growing my hair out, even as I started secretly wearing makeup and my old girl clothes and skirts and such. Because I was so deep into my transition.

C (56:20)

Yeah.

B (56:21)

That I didn't think there was any way out. You know, I thought that I was going to look like. And sound like a boy forever. I thought that I was only. I was never gonna be able to come back to everybody in my life and tell them, like, I'm not Leo. I'm not a boy. I'm still Chloe. I'm still your daughter. I'm still a girl. That was a very shameful thought for me because it was this huge life decision that everybody in my life was pretty much involved in. They all knew me as a boy now. I didn't think I could ever go back, but even as I tried to force myself not to go back, to keep calling myself a boy, to keep going further into my transition, to keep taking these shots every week, it was destroying me. And I was starting to really struggle. I was. My performance in school at this point was just abysmal. I was getting, like, basically all Fs in all my classes. I wasn't trying my classes anymore. I wasn't applying myself to anything in my life because I just wanted to give up. I was in so much grief. Eventually, I was taking a class in psychology during the later half of my junior year. And that was when I was first starting to learn about things like maternity and childhood and how. How children develop into teenagers and how teenagers develop into adults in the psychological. The process of that, psychologically and socially. And it was just. Even though I wasn't really applying myself in that class or in my. In my schoolwork, just learning about those things was so. It was so wonderful and touching and beautiful to see, you know, how. How a human life starts. Right. And how the way that a child is raised and fostered by their mother and their father, how that shapes them as the doctors. But it brought me a lot of grief as well. There was a lesson that was on. Like, it involved, like, breastfeeding and like, the. The bond that. That comes from that between the mother and the child. And that was when I realized.

A (59:10)

This.

B (59:10)

Is what I've lost. I'm never even going to have the option to do that with my own child, if I do have any as an adult. And I don't think I can think of any other point in my life where I experienced the level of heartbreak as I did in that moment. And it killed me. You know, I. I didn't know what to do with myself for the longest time. I had. I just had, like, a few weeks where I just completely gave up on my schoolwork. And I was just basically laying in bed all day because I couldn't forgive myself.

A (59:53)

I could cry listening to that. Especially when she talks about mourning the fact that she will never be able to breastfeed her own children. And that was something that struck me really powerfully years ago when I had this conversation with her, well before I had a baby. But now, as I'm still a breastfeeding mom, and I know everybody gets sappy about the whole breastfeeding thing, but just bear with me. Truly, the emotional connection I feel with my daughter through sustaining her, through nourishing her, through being her lifeline in my breastfeeding journey has been one of the most powerful experiences. Experiences in my life. I said this early on to my husband right after my daughter was born, but kind of when you, like, first meet your husband and the one and you have all the sparks in the world and you get the butterflies in your tummy and you just have this amazing falling in love feeling, everybody knows what I'm talking about. Hopefully from the emotional pitter patter of your heart wanting to explode out of your chest because you've met the love of your life. It was almost like that the first few days of breastfeeding my daughter. But actually, probably because of the rampant cocktail of hormones going through my body, I articulated to my husband that breastfeeding my daughter and looking at her as she fell asleep in my arms those first few days, I remember feeling a literal falling in love with my daughter. Like, it felt like my body fell in love with my daughter to a depth of love that I have never experienced before in my life. And I know many other moms have said this about feeding their babies and the beauty of breastfeeding and how special of a bond that is with your baby that really nothing else can remotely compare to. My heart really breaks for people like Chloe, who will never be able to experience that. And the thousands of other young women who have been told by the people that they were supposed to trust more than anyone in the world. The only way for them to feel empowered, to feel beautiful, to feel cherished, and to feel loved by themselves or by others is to take away the beautiful, inherent feminine parts of their womanhood, to run away from womanhood altogether. As a mom of a daughter myself now, my hope for especially girl moms, but anyone dealing with this and how to talk to your kids about this, is that we can come up with a better way as a culture to tell our daughters. And everyone feels uncomfortable and ugly and awkward in their adolescent years. And maybe this warrants a different episode on this topic, but I feel like we're kind of like erasing the awkward stage out of adolescence. In the teenage and preteen era right now, kids are just rushing to look like they're 25 and have full Sephora makeup routines and skincare routines at 10, 11 or 12 years old. But every single girl especially feels incredibly out of place and clunky and awkward and ugly and like everybody else has it figured out. And I am the one that's the weird one out here. Depraved, evil, dark individuals in our country, many of whom are doctors, many of whom are educators, not to say all doctors or educators are like this, but many of them are, have taken advantage of that important rite of passage for several generations now, for 20 plus years in our country. To say your awkwardness is not actually a symptom of adolescence. It is a symptom that you were born in the wrong body. I'm gonna fix it for you. We'll put you in the other body, and then all of a sudden you're gonna feel really great about yourself. As a result, we have thousands of young people today in America who will never feel comfortable in their own skin again. Ironically, not fully. What an unbelievable harm and disservice we have done to these kids by failing to stand up and speak the truth. As much as I hate to give kudos to any of these organizations, kudos to the American Medical association and the American Society of Plastic Surgeons for finally reversing course. But if we're serious about protecting our daughters, we're serious about preventing this from ever happening again, and we're really serious about following the science. These have to be the very first dominoes to fall. I hope this provides a major policy shift in America. Whatever you do, whoever you are, whatever field you are in or walk of life, you are in, right now, in some small way, I encourage you to get out there and have the courage to speak the truth about this issue in whatever way you can. We're back tomorrow covering the insanity of Virginia. Turns out it got a lot worse, a lot worse than it ever possibly could have even last week. So the call for Wyoming in my soul grows by the day. But we're joined by our amazing friend from previously in the Virginia legislature and somebody you may recognize on social media. Nick Fr Freight us tomorrow to talk about all of the things Virginia is doing to ruin Isabel Brown and company's life. You guys are gonna love that one. Can't wait to see you then.