Taylor Swift Fans FURIOUS She's Too Trad?! The Left’s War on Marriage & Free Speech

Summary

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The Isabel Brown Show | Taylor Swift Fans FURIOUS She's Too Trad?! The Left’s War on Marriage & Free Speech

Date: October 7, 2025
Host: Isabel Brown
Episode Focus: Examining the media backlash against Taylor Swift's allegedly “tradwife” themes, the cultural war surrounding marriage, and a landmark Supreme Court case on free speech and counseling minors on gender transition.

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Main Theme:

Isabel Brown dives into the uproar over Taylor Swift’s new album, dissecting accusations from the left that claim her lyrics promote conservative values and traditional marriage. She expands the conversation to critique the broader cultural and media war on marriage, including Emma Watson’s recent comments about marriage as “violence,” and closes with a detailed discussion of a significant Supreme Court case challenging Colorado’s restrictions on counselors’ speech about gender transition for minors.

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1. Taylor Swift’s “Tradwife” Controversy

[00:00–14:42]

Isabel’s Take on Taylor Swift's Album & Fan Backlash

• Isabel begins with sarcasm: “Hell has frozen over. Pigs fly. The up is down. Taylor Swift, it seems, is the poster child of the MAGA tradwives because she sang one song about wanting to have children with her husband to be Travis Kelsey.” [00:00]
• She expresses surprise at how left-wing press and fans accuse Swift of delivering “conservative MAGA propaganda” because her lyrics on motherhood and marriage allegedly betray her feminist legacy.

Social Media & Media Outcry

• Audio from a TikTok critic (paraphrased): Swift is “handing the conservative agenda on a silver platter to the masses... you cannot convince me that the master lyricist of our generation... is not aware of what her entire optics and lyrics and album and everything is giving at this very moment. They got engaged as a package deal with the album rollout... another step towards the conservative pipeline.” [02:20]
• Isabel cuts in, incredulous: “What’s wrong with that?” [03:21]

Notable Quotes & Media Coverage

• TikTok critic (Little Debbie): "I want to have your white babies. And I actually want our entire neighborhood to be racially homogeneous." [03:22]
• Isabel, mocking the narrative: “I can’t even begin to justify anything other than the word psychotic with the behavior that I watched in that video.” [04:18]
• Dazed, Glamour, and The Standard (UK) magazines criticized Swift’s "Wish List" and "Canceled" for being “tradwife fodder,” “outdated millennial cringe,” and “practically offensive,” especially in relation to Swift’s supposed proximity to Trump-friendly figures.
• Isabel notes the irony: “Is it so clear to the media that all of a sudden, if you remotely want to do something that is roughly perceived as conservative, you are now a MAGA apologist? ... All because she wants to get married and have children.” [12:45]

Key Insight

• The mere act of a high-profile woman singing about love, marriage, and family is seen by segments of progressive media and fans as regressive or even sinister: “It is so telling... that it is remotely considered a conservative or even MAGA thing to want to get married and have children at all.” [14:00]

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2. The Left’s War on Marriage

[21:30–32:58]

Emma Watson’s “Marriage is Violence” Statement

• Isabel brings up Emma Watson’s viral podcast comment: “...the pressure to get married is a, quote, violence against young people.” [21:50]
• Isabel critiques this as “the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life” and pushes back on the narrative that society incentivizes marriage, arguing instead that contemporary propaganda discourages young people from marrying. [22:05–23:31]

Notable Commentary

• “...there is nothing violent about telling people that it’s okay to fall in love and it’s okay to want to commit your life to someone, and you are worthy of that type of genuine connection, intimacy and commitment...” [23:53]
• She links hyperbolic claims (like Watson's) to a broader cultural pattern for justifying retaliatory rhetoric or even violence against “normal human behavior.”
• Isabel discusses the demonization of conventionally happy family life: "Babies, contrary to everything you’ve heard on TikTok or every headline you’re reading... are blessings. They are not burdens." [30:00]

Memorable Moments

• Isabel describes her own experience: “Getting married... and having a baby is by far, by far the best thing that has ever happened to me. In no way, shape or form has becoming a mom held my career back. To the contrary, actually.” [31:46]
• She encourages listeners to embrace family, love, and commitment and to challenge the loneliness the current culture appears to prescribe—“Families are beautiful. They are the bedrock of society...” [32:30]

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3. Supreme Court Free Speech Case: Chiles v. Salazar

[33:12–48:52]

Case Introduction & ADF Interview

• The episode features a segment with Kaylee Chiles (licensed counselor, plaintiff) and Kristen Waggoner (CEO and chief counsel, Alliance Defending Freedom), discussing their challenge to a Colorado law forbidding counselors from exploring alternatives to gender transition with minors.
• Key legal issue: Colorado law only permits “affirmative care” counseling, banning any suggestion other than proceeding with a child's transition—even if the child is confused or wants to detransition.

Key Discussion Points

• Kristen Waggoner: “The law... essentially says that a licensed counselor is not able to have voluntary conversations that a client is initiating and is in line with their personal goals... Kaylee could lose her license, starting with a $5,000 fine.” [34:21]
• Kaylee Chiles: “...on one topic only, we cannot operate as we operate in all other topics. The topic of sex and sexuality.” [35:17–35:26]
• “If the conversation is perceived a certain way, then I, as a counselor, am in danger of a $5,000 fine and revocation of my license if I am in some way violating the statute.” [36:31]
• Waggoner: “...Colorado’s placed a label on that to call that conversion therapy to be able to sit and to listen and to talk and to sort out... they’re lumping it all in to one bucket.” [45:50]

Counseling, Free Speech, & the Chilling Effect

• Chiles remarks on counselors’ fear: “Since I’m not willing to have half of a conversation due to this law. I’m just not willing to have the conversation at all. And so that means that I’m having to turn away adolescents right now who are asking for my help...” [44:04]
• Discussion about the wider impact: Waggoner cites research suggesting that up to 90% of gender-questioning adolescents resolve their dysphoria without intervention if allowed to proceed naturally, but “97% of the cases where you start to socially transition a child... you are putting them on a one-way path” to medicalization. [41:07]

Faith and Motivation

• Isabel, to Kaylee: “Can you walk us through what that means to you and if you have a message of encouragement for other Christian counselors out there?” [47:57]
• Kaylee Chiles: "...God defines my identity as made in his likeness and image... I think that is what inspires me to value the counseling process, is that we are incredibly valuable and we are worth investing in.” [48:02]

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Notable Quotes

• On Swift’s Criticism:
  “You, Taylor Swift, poster child for all of the women of an entire generation, are a problem to me because I have tied my entire identity to being a Swifty. And to become the next round of a childless cat lady. In the name of feminism, obviously.” — Isabel Brown [04:18]
• On Marriage vs. Modern Rhetoric:
  “There is nothing pro woman or empowering to women about this type of language. It is so very clearly by design to hold women back and to keep us lonely, single, miserable and without purpose in our lives that I just have had enough with it.” — Isabel Brown [28:52]
• On Colorado Law:
  “On one topic only, we cannot operate as we operate in all other topics... The whole premise changes, the whole conversation changes because we have our goals dictated to us by the state instead of being able to have a genuine little conversation.” — Kaylee Chiles [35:17]
• On Counseling Restrictions:
  “Colorado’s placed a label on that to call that conversion therapy to be able to sit and to listen and to talk and to sort out... they’re lumping it all in to one bucket as coercive or aversive therapy. Talking and listening is very different…” — Kristen Waggoner [45:50]
• On Faith in Action:
  “God loves us in and through our struggles. We can meet him there. And so what better way to spend my time during the day?” — Kaylee Chiles [48:02]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Taylor Swift tradwife backlash: 00:00–14:42
• Emma Watson & ‘Marriage is Violence’ discourse: 21:30–32:58
• Interview: Chiles v. Salazar (w/ ADF’s Kristen Waggoner and Kaylee Chiles): 33:12–48:52

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Tone & Style

• Isabel’s tone is bold, sarcastic, emotionally charged, and unapologetically conservative throughout, bringing both humor and righteous indignation to her cultural critiques.
• The interviews segment is more measured and professional but maintains a sense of urgency and commitment to free speech and religious liberty.

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Summary Takeaway

Isabel Brown’s episode is an intensive examination of the latest “culture war” flashpoints—Taylor Swift’s perceived ideological “betrayal” by progressive fans, the modern stigmatization of marriage, and the legal fight for free, unfettered conversation in counseling, especially for young people questioning gender. Brown’s core arguments tie these disparate issues together, warning that the media and academia’s attacks on family and faith are coordinated, and urging her audience to unapologetically champion marriage, parenthood, and freedom of speech in the face of cultural, legal, and political pressure.

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Transcript

[Isabelle Brown]

Hell has frozen over. Pigs fly. The up is down. Taylor Swift, it seems, is the poster child of the MAGA tradwives because she sang one song about wanting to have children with her husband to be Travis Kelsey. What is going on? Plus, Emma Watson says that the pressure to get married is literal violence against the next generation in our country, and that the Alliance Defending Freedom has a very important case at the Supreme Court today protecting kids from the dangers of gender ideology. Don't go anywhere. We're covering it all today on the Isabelle Brown Show. Taylor Swift's got a new album out. I know we're all sick and tired of hearing about it up to this point, so we're not going to decode every single Easter Easter egg and go through every single lyric. To be totally transparent with you, I just don't care that much. I like Taylor Swift. Have always liked Taylor Swift. There has not been a consistently amazing album since my senior year of high school with 1989 hot take maybe, but it's true. So I don't really care if you come at me for that. There was no feeling superior to being a high school senior driving around in your car with all of your windows down, bopping along to Style or to Blank Space or dancing at homecoming to any of the songs on that album. Okay? It's just. It's reality. But apparently I'm not the only one who thinks that this album doesn't hold a candle to the albums of Taylor Swift eras past. Her own fan base is very, very upset with the life of the Showgirl album, claiming that it is indeed trad wife conservative MAGA propaganda and that of all people, Taylor Swift has been bought by the evil orange man. It is not me making this up. Countless magazine headlines, bloggers and tiktokers have taken to the Internet over the last few days since the album came out last week to complain about how their favorite childless cat lady is now telling them that they should get married and have children. Because that's extremism and evil apparently. Listen to this tiktoker, explain this.

[TikTok Critic / Conservative Commentator]

Taylor Swift is handing the conservative agenda on a silver platter to the masses. And before I go any further, and before you argue with me, you cannot convince me that the master lyricist of our generation, akin to Shakespeare, the Easter egg master of our generation, is not aware of what her entire optics and lyrics and album and everything is giving at this very moment. They got engaged as a package deal with the album rollout. Yes they did. The album was announced and what, one day later, two days later, it was announced that they were engaged. We could talk about how manufactured that is. We could talk about how inauthentic it is. We could also talk about how it is yet another step towards the conservative pipeline. Let's take a moment for these lyrics. They want. They. They want a fat ass and a baby face. They want freedom. They want three dogs they call their kids. But I just want. You have a couple kids, have the whole block looking like you.

[Isabelle Brown]

What's wrong with that?

[TikTok Critic / Conservative Commentator]

I want to have your white babies. And I actually want our entire neighborhood to be racially homogeneous. She went through this entire thing with Trump, right, about how she and her fan base did not like being called childless cat ladies. And now Taylor is calling y' all childless cat ladies because she's about to pop out some kids. And this is where I'm also going to answer your question. Well, does she owe us her political opinions? She's just a pop star. Well, yes, she does. She is a white woman with one of the most massive platforms in our world today. In Miss Americana, she platformed herself as an ally and monetized off of that. So do I expect.

[Isabelle Brown]

A white woman.

[TikTok Critic / Conservative Commentator]

With the biggest platform in the world to make moves with politics? Yeah, I do.

[Isabelle Brown]

Do I expect any white woman with a platform ever to make moves for left wing politics? Yes, I do. And the second it remotely appears like anything may be going astray from angry millennial feminist leftism, I. All of a sudden, you are a problem. You, Taylor Swift, poster child for all of the women of an entire generation, are a problem to me because I have tied my entire identity to being a Swifty. And to become the next round of a child is cat lady. In the name of feminism, obviously. But now that you're in a new era, I've been left behind. These people are psychotic. Like, I can't even begin to justify anything other than the word psychotic with the behavior that I watched in that video. Fun fact, we spared your time that you don't have to listen to every single thing that woman who goes by little Debbie on TikTok was saying. That's an almost six minute video. And we cut out a whole lot of the other reasons why Taylor Swift was problematic to this particular tiktoker. Clearly she's only wanting to have kids so that she can sell you a Taylor Swift line of baby products. A whole extra thing about the racial homogenization of America, apparently, because Taylor Swift wants to have white babies instead of another potential mixed race child in the future. Of course, that Donald Trump is in on it because Donald Trump has previously tweeted in all caps I hate Taylor Swift. And then he wished her luck in her marriage. So clearly she is now in the MAGA world. And the most threatening thing of all how dare Taylor Swift announce this album on her boyfriend's football podcast. Because we are never supposed to share anything with a man ever. As empowered women and feminists in 2025America. Taylor Girl, you're backsliding to like the 1950s by sharing this incredible achievement in your life with your then boyfriend, now fiance, husband to be because how dare you share anything in your life with a man. I'm literally almost directly quoting every single thing that that girl was saying in her six minute TikTok, which has now been picked up by almost every major women's publication and mainstream media alike, who are also all complaining that Taylor Swift is on the conservative pipeline to becoming a trad wife. Dazed magazine has some very serious qualms with Taylor Swift's song K Canceled, which is a fascinating coverage of the aftermath of Cancel Culture in 2025America. Good thing I like my friends canceled, she sings over an uninspired bed of chugging guitars and plodding percussions. I like them cloaked in Gucci and in scandal. It's a stretch, says Dazed magazine, to suggest that the world's biggest pop star and her coterie of celebrity pals are pariahs. But it's a sentiment that that's practically offensive when you consider how Swift is now regularly spotted with people supportive of Donald Trump, whose administration has censored dissenting voices while simultaneously claiming that they're the victims being silenced by wokeness. It's not unfair to expect Swift to demonstrate some political awareness, as if she hasn't been ragingly active in the political world up to this point, after spending the majority of her career remaining quiet on political issues. She made a joint or she made a point, excuse me, in the 2018 election cycle of endorsing Democratic candidates for Tennessee during that year's midterm elections, highlighting the decision in her documentary Miss Americana, which everyone was upset about back then. So where where are these people saying she has never weighed in on politics? That was 2018. People get on board. She spoke out against Trump during his initial presidency, but she's never weighed in on politics, obviously. She's criticized the ruling of Roe v. Wade, but she's never weighed in on politics, obviously. So supportive social progressive issues and endorsed Kamala Harris in the 2024 election. While often imperfect, her politics were clear. But since the dawn of Trump 2.0, writes Dazed magazine. She has kept stum as ice disappears American citizens and silences protesters arriving. In such a context, the message of canceled feels wholly out of touch with the scary truth of today's sort of sociopolitical climate. Who is she hanging out with that's pro Donald Trump? Travis Kelsey is not wildly maga. Jason, maybe you could make the argument that theoretically Jason and Kylie support the president, but we don't know that. I suppose maybe they've even said to the contrary. I don't follow the Kelsey's politics like most people follow the Kardashians. I don't know, maybe Patrick Mahomes and Harrison Butker. Because her boyfriend plays on the same football team as people who have been outspokenly supportive of President Trump, her writing a song about cancel culture automatically means that she's a problem and needs to be canceled. Oh, the irony. Glamour magazine says that her song Wish list, the one referenced in the video about wanting to get married and have a bunch of babies to her fiance Travis Kelsey, because God forbid she's in love, writes the trad wives will eat this up, I fear. And the standard over in the UK across the pond also had issues with the song Canceled. They said Canceled is very fun musically, but the lyrics are a car crash of outdated millennial cringe. Did you girl boss too close to the sun? Did they catch you having too much fun? Says Swift, according to her. It's a quote, good thing I like my friends canceled. But there's a bit of an icky statement associated with that now. Now that she's running around with MAGA podcasters. Who. Who are these people talking about? Is it so clear to the media that all of a sudden if you remotely want to do something that is roughly perceived as conservative, you are now a MAGA apology? You're me. You're me on the COVID of Newsweek. You know what, Dean? Hand me this. Hand me this thing. Dean's my prettiest. Are you guys all of a sudden this is Taylor Swift, me on the COVID of NewsWeek magazine in 2019 wearing a MAGA hat because she wants to get married and have children. This is now Taylor Swift, according to the entire media apparatus of song writers, people who cover lyrics of anybody who covers the music industry of the political world, and everyone claiming to be alternative media on TikTok. But I guess we probably should have seen this coming back in August when she announced that she was engaged to Travis Kelce, which we were excited for her. That's great. That's always good news. When someone falls in love and wants to get married and spend the rest of their life with someone. The media was really threatened and upset by that back then, well before the lyrics to songs like Wish List or Canceled ever came out. The Daily Beast I don't even know if we should call them media propaganda wing of the Internet maybe seems more appropriate. Put out the headline in August. MAGA Thirst Spirit Over Trad Wife Taylor Swift after her Engagement to Travis Kelce Tradwife Taylor Swift. Good Lord. I mean, half the Internet is constantly screaming at me about how I'm promoting traditional values, but I'm not a trad wife. Because if you were really a trad wife, you would never ever hear a woman speak a word out loud. Ever. This whole trad wife movement has so many layers of complication to it, which we obviously don't have time to get all into today. But it's so telling to me that it is remotely considered a conservative or even MAGA thing to want to get married and have children at all. The second you break free from the childless cat lady thing or you decide, hey, my love life might be as important to me as my career or wow, I actually see myself having a future with this person instead of just randomly sleeping around with 20 different guys at the same time. Or maybe, God forbid, suggesting to the next generation of women that it's okay to commit your life to someone you are a problem. It's time for you to be canceled as soon as humanly possible. What is wrong with these people? Since all the good ladies are wanting to become moms, you guys know, and I've shared this with you. Since becoming a mom, my skin has really been struggling. It's tired and dull and very dry and I don't even know if it's from all the sleepless nights or how hard we've been working on the show, but I have been desperate to find a solution, especially as we've gotten the show up and running and I'm in front of the camera all day every day. I was honestly getting really frustrated trying so many different products that just weren't working for me and knowing that I had to be very careful about what I was using as I'm continuing to breastfeed my daughter. That's when I discovered Bond Charge and their amazing red light face mask. And oh my gosh, it has been a total game changer for me. Bon Charge is an amazing wellness brand that creates creates science backed products using ancestral wisdom with cutting edge research. Their red light face mask is my favorite chef's Kiss product of theirs. It has become my sacred self care me time. I use it for just 10 to 20 minutes while I'm watching the news, doing show research or putting my daughter to bed, which is always the funniest scene ever because I look like a cartoon character from your nightmares as I'm putting her down. It is super lightweight, it doesn't get too hot and it uses both red light and near infrared to boost collagen production and elastin production and and my husband has been known to steal it for himself every once in a while too. What sets Bon Charge apart is that they've actually removed the circadian and sleep disrupting blue and green light that other brands keep in their red light masks. Plus they have zero EMF radiation and zero flicker. Since using it I have seen such a noticeable difference in my skin. I am glowing again. And most, not all, but most of those tired new mom fine lines are non existent. Plus it is backed by over 4000 peer reviewed studies with zero negative side effects which is a big deal for me as a scientist. Don't just take my word for it, you can try it for yourself. Go to boncharge.com and use coupon code Isabelle to save 15% on your order. That's B O-N C-H-A-R-G-E.com coupon code Isabelle for 15% off the problem with the backlash associated with Taylor Swift's album and the remote idea that just getting in marriage and having children and falling in love is all of a sudden a maga handmaid's tale regressive path for women to take is that eventually we arrive at like the end be all conclusion that women just can't be happy. Because if you tell women that they should want to be happy, like by getting married and having children, then you are promoting violence against women everywhere. Another celebrity that's been in the headlines a lot the last couple of days, who I actually really like, so it's unfortunate that we have to cover stuff like this is Emma Watson. There was a lot of back and forth between Emma Watson, who during her entire childhood portrayed Hermione Granger so beautifully in Harry Potter. I think she was just absolutely the perfect character to be cast for that. You watched her go back and forth with J.K. rowling last week. After kind of out of nowhere from the shadows of disappearing from public life, she decided to appear on a podcast last week and essentially said a bunch of confusing things about J.K. rowling, who then felt prompted to respond. The takedown was legendary, by the way. And I am so here for J.K. rowling's completely unapologetic arc. I think she's letting people know if you are allowed to have your own values and you are allowed to have your own opinions, and no one owes you an explanation or an apology when they do have their own opinions, it's so powerful. And because we don't agree on basically anything, I think it's even more powerful coming from somebody who's very Liberal, like a J.K. rowling, to remind the world of that reality. So she went back and forth with Emma Watson last week, but apparently as part of this whole let's all focus on Emma Watson, last week she ended up saying this, and this is going viral all over social media. A couple of days after this podcast interview, when everyone's talking about Emma, she said, at age 35, mind you, she is 35 years old, that the pressure to get married is a, quote, violence against young people. I'm going to leave this up on screen for you for a minute just so we can sit with that for a second, because that is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life. I'm sorry. Emma, you are brilliant. You portray brilliant characters. You went to an Ivy League university. You are one of the smartest women of our generation. And I've always admired her ability to think logically and think critically and not get swept up in the celebrity craze. But this is genuinely insane behavior. To me, the pressure to get married is a violence against young people. First of all, what pressure? What. What pressure to get. What. What pressure even exists to get married? If anything, there is a wild push of propaganda to pressure you not to get married as a young person in society today, which we cover regularly here on the Isabelle Brown show with countless headlines, social media posts, what every politician is telling you, what every major influencer is telling you, every TV show out of Hollywood, every movie, every academic class proving that marriage is such an outdated conc. Institution, everything is telling you not to get married. Look at the backlash to Taylor Swift falling in love. So I don't know where that pressure is coming from, but there is nothing violent about telling people that it's okay to fall in love and it's okay to want to commit your life to someone, and you are worthy of that type of genuine connection, intimacy and commitment to someone for the rest of your days. I shouldn't even be surprised, frankly, because to these people, everything is violence except actual violence, apparently. And there were some really good takes about this on social media, basically all boiling down to wanting us to pay more attention to this type of rhetoric. Because ultimately there is a very distinct reason that celebrities that the media, that academia, the entertainment industry and so much more is calling normal human behavior and beliefs like marriage that have existed for the last several thousand years violence. To call something that is totally normal human behavior violence gives them a reason to feel justified in retaliating against normal human behavior with real violence. And this is a very intentional by design pipeline that we've seen in America for the last several years. Frankly, this isn't much different to why they killed Charlie Kirk and why they felt this was justified. Because Charlie exhibiting normal human behavior and sitting down across from someone who disagrees with him, having an honest conversation, still offering respect and offering an opportunity for that person to voice their opinion, but walking away in disagreement normal human behavior was considered violence. His words were considered violence. So of course he had to be taken out as a threat from society as actual violence came to fruition. I don't know who needs to hear this today, but words are not violence. They're not. Encouraging young people to get married is not violence. And this nonsense rhetoric that continues to get crazier and crazier with every passing day to the point that even just the idea of getting married is considered violent propaganda to the next generation. It has to stop or else more innocent people are going to be hurt and they are going to be killed in the pursuit of reviving our society and building a culture where we all can experience genuine legitimate happiness again, even at the less sinister level. Before we get into the what is actual violence thing and how this goes into a whole pipeline of actual violence coming to fruition. I'm sorry but this needs to be said. So listen up. The unhappy unmarried childless woman thing, thinking that happy married women with children are threatening your existence has got to stop. Seriously. It's not cute anymore. It's not attractive anymore. There is nothing pro woman or empowering to women about this type of language. It is so very clearly by design to hold women back and to keep us lonely, single, miserable and without purpose in our lives that I just have had enough with it. Like most of you. The people pleasing left my body on September 10 at 12:23pm especially when it comes to the attack against the family and to see how many people in the last few weeks have said that Charlie was this horrifying, angry, evil man trying to push women into having children and getting married, that Taylor Swift getting married and wanting to have kids and singing about that is all of a sudden propaganda from Donald Trump and the MAGA machine. Or that ideas like Emma Watson's are becoming more normal. Marriage. The idea of it is violence against women. Just stop. Seriously. We could spend hours, days, weeks, years, which we have in all of my content, proving that the opposite is true. That every single major study conducted on this shows that the happiest women with the most purpose in our lives by far are married women who practice a religion, who have children. We could prove that to you, but it seems our culture isn't really interested in having that conversation to begin with. Because words are violent, haven't you heard? I just have to say, getting married in the last couple of years and having a baby is by far, by far the best thing that has ever happened to me. In no way, shape or form has becoming a mom held my career back. To the contrary, actually. It gives me a reason to jump out of bed every morning and feel even more passionate about the things that I'm fighting for and the things that I believe in. It gives me a sense of purpose at the end of every day to come home to my family and look at what I'm building in my home and want to share that with people of our generation. Babies. Contrary to everything you've heard on TikTok or every headline you're reading, or what every influencer is telling you, babies are blessings. They are not burdens. And the same can be said for husbands, even though sometimes we have to train them to put the laundry away or throw their thing away from the fridge after it's been sitting there for a few days. Sorry, husband, not to remotely call you out on the Isabel Brown show today. Families are beautiful. They are the bedrock of society and they are giving of so much purpose, so much joy and so much love that I've just had it, frankly, with our society. Trying to convince you you are unworthy of Stop listening. Stop, turn it off. Or even better yet, counter it with the truth. Keep posting photos of your family online. Keep talking about how much you want to get married. Keep asking girls out on a date if you are a young man listening to this instead of texting them from a random dating app. As a young woman, keep pursuing beautiful relationships that are leading to marriage instead of endorsing this casual sex hookup culture that has made us all childless cat ladies and miserable for the last several decades of American history. It has never been clearer to me that the family is directly the unit that is under attack more than anything else, to destroy Western civilization and now that we're seeing a revival of what is good and true and beautiful and people reinvesting into the idea of marriage and children, boy is the evil side of our culture shrieking louder and louder and louder because they are threatened by the idea of the family being the bedrock of our society. Again, keep going and do not stop falling in love and having children as we keep fighting for the family. It's never been more important for us to invest in the conversations our family are having around the dinner table too. And this fall Good Ranchers is challenging us to get back to the dinner table. Honestly, for our family, it has changed everything. Once a week we are making it happen no matter how difficult or logistically challenging it is. No phones, no work, emails, just us connecting over a real meal with myself, my husband and our beautiful baby girl who is about ready for her first steak here in the next couple days and I'm so excited about it. Here's what makes it possible. Good ranchers delivers 100% American high quality meat right to our door. Everything comes pre portioned and triple trimmed so even on my craziest, most insane days I can have dinner ready for my family in a matter of minutes instead of spending an hour plus prepping dinner. And get this Good Ranchers is giving away free holiday hams baby. God I love holiday season every week just for joining their Back to the Table challenge like we did. All you have to do is share a photo of your weekly dinner on your Instagram stories, hashtag Back to the Table and tag at Good Ranchers. My family growing up had a rule that I love sharing with people that there was no such thing as a kids table. The kids were expected to sit with the grownups even not on holidays, just regular family dinner and talk about everything going on in the world so that we could be better equipped to articulate our own values by the time we grew up and moved out of the house. And this Back to the Table challenge has been a beautiful reconnecting of that how I grew up and now getting to share that with my family too. You can visit goodranchers.com and use my code Isabelle for $40 off plus free meat for life when you subscribe. That's Isabel for $40 off and free meat for life@good ranchers.com let's all get back to the table to close out the show today. I want to shift gears for a couple of minutes because there is a fascinating case happening today at the Supreme Court of the United States just down the road that is being led by Alliance Defending Freedom. If you guys aren't familiar with adf, they are absolutely amazing and they take on so many important cases when it comes to freedom of expression. You probably recognize them really recently from the Scrametti case that came out of the state of Tennessee that Daily Wire was very, very closely involved with, ultimately going all the way up to the Supreme Court to essentially ban surgical transition for minors across the country and to know that that is allowed for states to put into their state legislature and state law. You might remember the Masterpiece Cake Shop case from several years ago in Colorado and the second Masterpiece Cake Shop case that ended up coming out. I just still cannot believe that is a reality. They are taking on a new case out of Colorado and have been fighting this for the last several years that is being heard by the Supreme Court of the United States today. And it is a fascinating, fascinating legal argument about the future of free speech in the world of counseling. This case is called Chiles v. Salazar. Salazar is the worst from the state of Colorado. I can say that I'm a certified expert. I grew up there. And he is truly the worst. But it is fascinating to me that Colorado has really been leading the forefront of just how crazy can we make the United States of America? Far more than California or New York or Illinois. I talk about this a lot on the show because I have a very vested interest in the decline of Colorado as a case study for the country. I watched it happen throughout my entire childhood and especially on the subjects of gender theory and the transitioning of children. They have taken the most by far radical, unencumbered position that they possibly could to remove the role of parents in helping their children navigate these difficult conversations, to force insane pro gay and pro trans sex ed at every single level of public education and even private education in the state of Colorado. And even to go so far as to say legally, this is a new law that was signed into law by Governor Polis. The state has the right to take custody of your children away from you if you disagree with your kids. New pronouns, not even exaggerating. That is a statewide law that I hope gets challenged very, very soon and makes its way to the Supreme Court. There was a law that passed in 2019 in the state of Colorado and now has made its way through the appellate court system all the way up to the Supreme Court of the United States that says licensed counselors in the state are illegal. It is illegal for counselors to suggest anything other than full throated affirmative care for minors seeking transgender reassignment processes Whether that's changing your name or going through surgery or hormone therapy, any of the above. So theoretically, if you are a kid and you're 15 years old and all of a sudden everything that you've heard at school is really confusing to you, and you don't really know if you still feel like a girl, you think you might want to feel like a they, them or a boy, and you go to a licensed counselor to talk about these things, which used to be the first step in the gender reassignment pipeline. Now, of course, you can just walk into Planned Parenthood and walk out with a brown paper bag of testosterone the same day with no history of gender dysphoria or talking to a counselor. But you used to have to go to a counselor first and you talk through these issues and you say, I don't really know how I feel. I'm really confused. I'm feeling so out of place in my own body. How can I handle some of this? Your counselor in the state of Colorado is prohibited by law from even asking you, are you sure? Are you sure that you want to transition? Are you sure you want to go by a new name or schedule this surgery or go through hormone replacement therapy? I just want to make sure that you are sure that is now illegal. The only approved talking points that any licensed counselor in the state of Colorado can take are full throated support to shove you into affirmative care, the affirmative care pipeline, which says that you have to schedule the surgery, you have to take the hormones, you have to take the puberty blockers, you have to go by the new name or else. Even when kids want the help to detransition or to stop the transition pipeline to begin with, and they're not really sure how they feel about this. This case is so fascinating and is truly a case study, no pun intended, for what these laws are going to look like in the future. As to how we handle even the conversations about gender transition in the United States moving forward, it's being led by a plaintiff by the name of Kaylee Chiles, who is a licensed counselor in Colorado who talks about all kinds of various issues in her counseling process, including gender identity and sexual orientation. And as a Christian counselor in particular, has previously approached all of the conversations that she's had with her clients through the lens of her Christian faith and the beliefs that she holds very, very close to her heart, the values that she lives by as a Christian in Colorado Springs. Because of this law that passed in 2019, Kaylee is prohibited by law from saying, you are made in the image of God, exactly who you are. You are made on purpose to be a young woman. You are made on purpose to be a young man. And so the only conversations that she is legally allowed to have is telling a young woman, yep, you're a boy. Now let's get the surgery scheduled. So naturally, there are massive amounts of counselors in the state of Colorado who are either never having those conversations to begin with, just pulling back from their practices because they are so afraid of the legal ramifications, or if they break the law and do their duty as a good counselor, are being fined up to $5,000 per violation and having their licenses threatened to be taken away. This is very, very scary stuff on par with like Big Brother come to life 1984 type legal ramifications in the state of Colorado, making you self censor to never even have the conversations to begin with because you're so afraid of the backlash that the only licensed counselors in Colorado are the ones shoving kids further and further and further into the gender transition pipeline. Again. This case is being heard by the Supreme Court of the United States today. So I thought it would be fun if we spent a couple of minutes with Kristen Wagner, who is the head of the Alliance Defending Freedom and an absolutely amazing woman who is very much crusading on behalf of the American citizens with our First Amendment rights. And the counselor who is the plaintiff on this case herself, Kaylee Chiles. Let's go talk to him, Kristen. Kaylee, thank you so much for joining.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Us on the show today and truly for your courage in taking on this issue head on.

[Isabelle Brown]

For those unfamiliar with the case, can.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

You walk us through who both of you are and what today means in terms of your continued fight for free speech and against censorship in the world of counseling, why don't we start with you, Kayleigh?

[Kaylee Chiles]

Well, I'm Kayleigh Childs. I'm a counselor in the state of Colorado, and I am now the named party in a case that I'm bringing to the Supreme Court.

[TikTok Critic / Conservative Commentator]

Amazing.

[Kristin Wagner]

I'm Kristin Wagner. I am the CEO and also chief legal counsel at adf. And this is one of our four cases that are at the court this term. The case focuses on free speech and in particular in the context of radical gender ideology and what can happen in a private counseling session and what discussions can occur.

[Isabelle Brown]

So for those who are really unfamiliar.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

With this law, I didn't know much about it until I started doing research about your case. And I grew up in Colorado.

[Isabelle Brown]

But just to see how much things.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Have changed so radically in the last few years, I think, is really shocking to people.

[Isabelle Brown]

What is this law that you are.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Challenging, and what specifically is it telling counselors that you can and can't say in these counseling sessions?

[Kristin Wagner]

Well, the law was put in place in 2019 by the Colorado legislature, and it essentially says that a licensed counselor is not able to have voluntary conversations that a client is initiating and is in line with their personal goals. If those conversations touch on the client's desire to change their identity by way of behavior, feelings, affections, expressions, Any of those conversations would cause Kaylee, possibly even to lose her license. But certainly it would start out with a $5,000 fine and then would continue to possible revocation of her license in the end. So that is truly infringing and peering into a private counseling session and a private conversation. And there's no other law like that in the counseling profession. I think Kaylee's best equipped to talk about how that impacts that counseling relationship.

[Kaylee Chiles]

Yeah. So for me and my clients, that just means that on one topic only, we cannot operate as we operate in all other topics.

[Isabelle Brown]

And what topic is that?

[Kaylee Chiles]

Well, the topic of sex and sexuality.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Right.

[Kaylee Chiles]

And otherwise, we can build a genuine therapeutic relationship. My clients come to me and tell me what brings them to counseling, what problems they see, what goals they have, and I offer them a conversation about how I can be helpful. And so we kind of decide together how to move forward and if we think we might be a good team. And unfortunately, in this case, the whole premise changes, the whole conversation changes because we have our goals dictated to us by the state instead of being able to have a genuine little conversation.

[Isabelle Brown]

So help me understand this. If I'm a 16 year old in.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

The state of Colorado and my school has been pushing gender theory over and over and over again in all of my classes, I all of a sudden decide I think I want to be non binary or I think I might be trans. If I took on a counseling session with you, Kaylee, and I said I thought I was going in that direction, you are only allowed to cancel me or counsel me further into gender transition. Not at all ask questions or push back against that in any way that's true. Yes.

[Kaylee Chiles]

If the conversation is perceived a certain way, then I, as a counselor, am in danger of a $5,000 fine and revocation of my license if I am in some way violating the statute.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Wow.

[Isabelle Brown]

And talk to me, Kristin, about what.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

This has looked like with the legal challenge associated with it. Obviously, you hear about a law like this and it's unconstitutional is the first thought that pops into your mind. But this was passed in 2019 in the state legislature, and here we are in 2025. Why has this taken so long?

[Kristin Wagner]

Well, cases often take a long time. I mean, it's not unusual for us to litigate a particular issue or a case, you know, for 10 years and have to again, go through multiple cases in different jurisdictions in order for the court to grant it. I think, you know, people need to understand that for the Supreme Court to hear a case, they have to understand and conclude that it's an issue of national importance and that it affects more than one state, usually. And so sometimes it's just a matter of time where these problems get bigger and bigger. And finally the court says, okay, it's time, for whatever reason, for us to step in and bring clarity. And that moment, I believe, has come for these laws. There are other states that have passed these laws, all within this brief period that I would classify as sort of a transgender craze. As you've talked about, we've seen a sociological phenomenon, particularly among girls. And in that time period, Colorado in particular has pushed forward a radical view of gender ideology that actually contradicts mounting evidence that suggests not having these conversations is truly harmful to kids. And it's important to recognize that this is viewpoint discrimination. It's also content discrimination. Those are legally loaded terms. But I think what it is clear is that the free speech clause protects Americans from being able to have private conversations. And if the state's going to come in and censor those conversations, the jurisprudence says they must have a really compelling reason to do so and not have a lesser restrictive means to be able to accomplish the harm that they say they're remedying. Here there is no harm, though. In fact, their evidence demonstrates that they can't even prove that there's harm from simply listening and talking to kids.

[Isabelle Brown]

That's the part that I think is.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

So shocking to me is just the concept of an open conversation about this. People like Chloe Cole come to mind and this growing detransitioner movement, to be honest about the fact that these young children and teenagers are being pushed only in one direction before they ever even have an honest conversation about what gender transition would really look like for them. All of a sudden, they find themselves laying on the table for a scheduled top surgery or taking life altering drugs and hormone therapy for the rest of their teenage years. And then they wake up at 20 or 21 years old and say, oh my gosh, why did no one even ask me a question if I was Sure, I wanted to do this.

[Isabelle Brown]

It seems to me that whether you.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Would be in favor of transitioning minors or you would be vehemently against it, just the conversational piece is so important from a counseling perspective. Why is the state trying to remove your ability to have that conversation in the first place?

[Kaylee Chiles]

Well, it's hard to say what the state's mind is about this issue, but absolutely, I think we can all agree that regardless of our opinion about this topic, we all are on the same page, that we should be able to speak freely, especially on issues of our mental health and concerns that we have, because not talking about it is really not an answer. To be able to talk about it fully is what counseling is about.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

If you could share your message as a counselor with the people who passed this law about why it's so wrong and why it needs to be challenged, what would you say?

[Kaylee Chiles]

I would probably reference the many people who don't have access to care right now, that there are adolescents, there are their families who are suffering right now. I am allowed to help people who are seeking something like a gender transition, and I am simply not allowed to help somebody of a different mind. And all of those people don't have access to care right now.

[Isabelle Brown]

Why do you think Colorado in particular.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Has become almost this petri dish experiment for some of these crazy ideas?

[Isabelle Brown]

I think about all of the cases.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

ADF has taken on representing Colorado. There's summer camp counselors dealing with issues.

[Isabelle Brown]

Like this, cake bakers dealing with issues like this.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

It all seems to be centered around this growing LGBTQ conversation and where our country is splitting in two different directions here.

[Isabelle Brown]

But why Colorado? I would have expected this even as someone who grew up there.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

More from California, New York or Illinois, perhaps?

[Kristin Wagner]

Well, I would say that you have a pretty radical legislature there, as well as the governor and the attorney general. We have a number of cases. Two of the cases I've argued at the Supreme Court were both against Colorado in these areas. But even more so, as you referenced, we had a case called Camp Idrahaji, which involved whether boys could be in girls dorm rooms or, you know, camp rooms. But we have a case right now involving a secret transition in a hotel room. All of these issues are coming up in Colorado as well as in a few other states. I think that what we need to remember, though, is in this particular area, 90%. The science tells us that upwards of 90% of kids that are struggling with gender confusion, that are struggling with being at peace with their bodies, if they are allowed to naturally proceed through adolescence, and having these conversations, they will live at peace with their bodies. They will be comfortable with their bodies. And yet the science also says that in 97% of the cases where you start to socially transition a child, that you are putting them on a one way path towards identifying as the opposite sex and having irreversible harm occur due to drugs or surgeries. So again, I just think that. But going into the counseling room and telling Kaylee she has to read from a set of talking points that only ratchet the conversation one way, it's deeply disturbing and at a minimum would require a much higher level of scrutiny under the First Amendment than what Colorado's willing to provide.

[Isabelle Brown]

It's really telling to me that we're.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Having this conversation in real time as our legal system is trying to figure out how we navigate the transition of minors. Because of the Scrometti case, which I know ADF had a very heavy hand in, we're already seeing a major policy change in allowing for the surgical transition of minors to begin with. But how does this look on the counseling side? Before we ever get to a hormone being prescribed to a teenager, before we ever get to a surgery being scheduled.

[Isabelle Brown]

Is there literally a bullet list of.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Talking points that you're allowed to say and can't deviate from? And what is the state trying to control in that conversation up front?

[Kaylee Chiles]

Well, it's my understanding when you read through the statute, you basically find a bullet point list.

[Isabelle Brown]

Right.

[Kaylee Chiles]

And if it's not on there, then there are accusations made against what I do and my intentions. And that is what essentially causes fear not only in myself, but also in other counselors who don't want to be fined $5,000 time and also potentially unable to help any more kids at all as a licensed counselor. And so the whole nature of the conversation changes when you are afraid for your ability to continue helping kids at all.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Yeah.

[Isabelle Brown]

And how does this impact your other.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Conversations that you're having as a counselor? Certainly, if they take your license away, you can't talk about anything. But has this really become the crux of your practice now because of how much the state is focusing on it?

[Kaylee Chiles]

Well, I think the way in which it changes the conversation is when you have one part of a conversation that is being suppressed and you can't talk about with openness and assertiveness, then it bleeds into other parts of your conversation. And so there are people coming in with all kinds of anxiety, depression, suicidality, all kinds of other issues. And this is one piece of the puzzle. And since I'm not willing to have half of a conversation due to this law. I'm just not willing to have the conversation at all. And so that means that I'm having to turn away adolescents right now who are asking for my help and wanting it. And I'm not the only one. Other counselors are also just saying this is too hot. I don't want to touch it. So I'm going to refer out.

[Isabelle Brown]

Wow. From this generational perspective too, it's so.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Interesting to me that Gen Z is very, very much struggling with the gender dysphoria component of this conversation. New studies are suggesting that upwards of 20% of our generation in some way, shape or form is identifying as gender non conforming or genderqueer. That social contagion aspect, how do you see that continuing to impact the field of counseling, especially as more laws like this might pop up around the country?

[Kaylee Chiles]

You know, one thing I love about counseling is we all have these different perspectives. People are giving us advice and people are telling us what they think and then we kind of infer what we should think too. And counseling is this beautiful special relationship where we get time and space to sort out. I'm hearing this, I'm hearing that, I'm telling myself this, I'm doubting that.

[Isabelle Brown]

Let's just, let's sort.

[Kaylee Chiles]

And that is the beauty of being able to have a full conversation that is not intruded upon by the rules of the state in this way.

[Kristin Wagner]

And I just want to point out, I mean, I love how Kaylee talks about what that counseling process is. And what's disturbing is that actually Colorado's placed a label on that to call that conversion therapy to be able to sit and to listen and to talk and to sort out. And they're putting it, lumping it in, in the same bucket as coercive or aversive types of therapy, that it's just not the same thing. Talking and listening to people is very different than the label that Colorado's putting on this. They're lumping it all in to one.

[Isabelle Brown]

Bucket, which is so ironic because the only coercion I'm actually seeing is coercion against the professionals here and making you.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Say only one scripted point of talking points there. As this continues to progress from a legal perspective, Kristen, are we expecting more laws like this to pop up around the country? What can we from the Supreme Court case today that you folks are arguing.

[Isabelle Brown]

And how can people continue to pay.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Attention to this in their own backyard?

[Kristin Wagner]

Well, I hope you won't see more loss because I hope that we win. And if we do win, I think that it could be very helpful to again reminding people that this is about individuals who are voluntarily seeking these conversations. They are setting their own goals and they should be able to work with people to achieve those goals. So my hope is that you won't continue to see that because the Supreme Court court will say this is unconstitutional to come into the counseling room and dictate these conversations one way, I think in terms of the gender identity or gender ideology, you'll continue to see cases play out. And even as we look in Scrometti, which the public can read and should read, you will see where the science is playing out and how there's beginning to be overwhelming scientific evidence that there are really harmful consequences to pushing kids down this one way.

[Isabelle Brown]

Conveyor yeah, Kaylee, in our last couple of minutes together, I would love to.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Ask you about your faith because in.

[Isabelle Brown]

The last few weeks, with a lot.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Of darkness and a lot of evil and violence that we're seeing in our country, we're also seeing this huge mounting courage to publicly embrace Christianity and to not apologize for the things that we believe in. That's a huge component of your case as a Christian counselor. And I know you'll be sharing a bit with the Supreme Court today about that.

[Isabelle Brown]

Can you walk us through what that.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Means to you and if you have a message of encouragement for other Christian counselors out there, there?

[Kaylee Chiles]

Well, of course I am everywhere I go. And God defines my identity as made in his likeness and image. And he also tells me that everyone else is made in his likeness and image. And I think that is what inspires me to value the counseling process, is that we are incredibly valuable and we are worth investing in. God loves us in and through our struggles. We can meet him there. And so what better way to spend my time during the day?

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Amen to that, ladies.

[Isabelle Brown]

Thank you both so, so much for.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

Joining us on the Isabel Brown Show. We are so excited to have people follow your case and your continued fight for freedom of expression where it really, really matters in serving people and helping people.

[Isabelle Brown]

And best of luck at the Supreme Court today.

[Show Host / Interviewer (Isabelle Brown)]

We know you're going to knock it.

[Isabelle Brown]

Out of the park.

[Kaylee Chiles]

Thanks so much.

[Kristin Wagner]

Thank you very much, Colorado.

[Isabelle Brown]

Just do better, please. I would love to move home. I was home last weekend, two weekends ago, and I was so excited to share the mountains with my daughter. It was the most beautiful time of year with all of the trees changing and the mountains were so crisp and the elk were running around on the golf course as we were out in my hometown, my parents kept asking, how would you move home? How would you move home? You gotta fix all of this before I ever even remotely think about that, because what a crazy, ridiculous place. But boy, am I glad that there are very bold, brave people who are unashamed in proclaiming truth and who are willing to challenge these laws one day at a time, like Kaylee Chiles. Kaylee, we are cheering you on today at the Supreme Court and we are very eagerly following this case as the Supreme Court weighs the future of what this looks like for state approved talking points for actual good counseling of children. Boy, have we lived in the Upside Down. But I'm sure glad that we are writing the ship and building an American dream and a country that we are proud to call home again. That's it for the Isabel Brown show today. Maybe I never thought I would say this on the show. Go listen to some Taylor Swift this afternoon and shake some things up. We will be back tomorrow. Make sure you guys are subscribed to every channel or podcast platform that you watch or listen to the Isabel Brown show on as we continue to grow into our second month of the show. Now that is absolutely crazy. And as always, if you guys have any topics or guests that you want to see us cover on the show, make sure to drop them in the comments. Love you so much.