← The Isabel Brown Show
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- [00:00]
Facebook Advertiser
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- [00:30]
Christy from Lululemon
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- [01:00]
Emma Waters
is what is so insane is that there have been studies done showing that over the course of a medical school career, the knowledge of fertility does not increase, meaning that doctors are not even being taught how to properly assess and diagnose infertility because IVF has just been the assumed one size fits all band aid. They completely set aside the health of the man and woman and instead say, well, we'll create you human embryos. We'll genetically test them to pick the best ones to increase your success rates. But at the end of the that man and woman are no healthier than they were before. And in many cases, as we've seen in countless studies, the woman is actually far more unhealthy and the human baby conceived as more unhealthy due to all of the adverse risks that come with IVF itself.
- [01:46]
Isabel Brown
Most estimates from Europe are suggesting that literally 7% or less of all the human beings that we create for IVF end up becoming born children. Otherwise they are stored in a freezer in perpetuity forever or they are genetically experimented upon. Now that this is becoming a more mainstream conversation, I think we're really wrestling with this idea of legally speaking, is an embryo a preborn baby, a legal human being? Emma Waters, I'm so excited to have you on the Isabel Brown Show. You stirred up a bunch of controversy in the last couple of weeks, being featured in a New York Times profile piece where they attack you for being too trad wife and not quite girl boss enough, including that you wanted to be called Mrs. Waters. How dare you even suggest that as a married woman. But today we're going to get into fertility, women's health, maha and all of it. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [02:37]
Emma Waters
Thanks so much for having me today.
- [02:38]
Isabel Brown
For those that don't know too much about you, can you give us a little brief overview?
- [02:41]
Emma Waters
Yeah, absolutely. So I have been married for almost five years. We are currently pregnant with our third little girl, which we're so excited about. And my husband, for the record, was like, at this point, you really should be a Mrs. In all of the eyes of the media. But outside of that and all of our time with family, I'm a senior policy analyst at the Heritage foundation where I cover restorative reproductive medicine, biotechnology and family policy.
- [03:01]
Isabel Brown
I love, and I want to start with Heritage because as you know, we've gotten a lot of hate in our family. When we announced our first pregnancy with my daughter, our Instagram caption was Project 2025. And I do a lot of work with Heritage, but I have just loved the work that you guys have been doing on family and reproductive policy in particular. Tell us a little bit about the Project 2025 manifestation now, because I see that the left seems to be coming back around to this. Like everyone said Project 2025 was a conspiracy theory and here we are. Did you work on that project at all? And what did it mean for family policy in particular?
- [03:35]
Emma Waters
I was, I was one of the many, many, many co authors on that report, which everyone finds a way to mention in any report that they do. And it was incredible to be a part of because not only were they tackling quite literally any domestic and foreign issue that Americans cared about, but the family was one of these central cornerstones. And this is, I think, been one of the major shifts in conservative politics where all of a sudden family is no longer a issue that you sort of talk about at home at a barbecue on the weekend, but rather family policy is the heart of what we're doing, because if you don't have thriving families, you don't have a thriving nation. And so the report started diving into what would later become our major family policy report that came out earlier this year, looking at the cultural, economic and technological barriers to family formation and ways to actually encourage and support it. So there's a ton we can dive into there.
- [04:23]
Isabel Brown
But I love hearing that. And honestly, I've just noticed that on the media and commentary front of the conservative movement, too, not just the policy side of things. I've watched a substantial shift in what this next generation in particular cares about so intimately and so deeply, moving away from tax policy and the economy, which
- [04:40]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
still matters, of course.
- [04:41]
Isabel Brown
And I think there's a lot of more nuanced issues that people care a lot more about in that realm, like housing affordability and all these things that of course play into the family as well. But maybe it's me learning from the feet of Charlie Kirk and watching his evolution throughout his young life and his commentary in particular now, watching people dive into their priorities being faith, family and freedom, in that order. We watch the massive Christian revival happen in the last couple of months in America in the wake of Charlie's death, led by young men in particular. And we also know that the number one and number two political priorities for young men under 35 are to get married and have kids. That is like a total seismic shift in our culture led by young people, because we're realizing the things that really matter that we need to invest in. So I love knowing that policy seems to be shifting in that direction too. But it's also happening out of necessity because I personally have so, so, so many friends and dealing with stuff like infertility. Their questions about their health are not being answered by the medical industry that we deal with in the United States right now. And you've watched the admin take this on really head on from the beginning of the Trump administration when they took office last year, but maybe not in the most productive way to address a lot of these underlying issues. Can you give us an overview what Maha and the Trump admin has really done to combat the rise of infertility in our country and where they might be missing the mark a little?
- [05:58]
Emma Waters
Yes, this is a great question. So if you go all the way back to 2024, prior to Alabama Supreme Court decision that came out right in the middle of the presidential election, which ruled that frozen embryos for the sake of a wrongful death of a minor lawsuit. So a very narrow ruling, all things considered, were considered people or humans, which is a fantastic ruling and very consistent with Alabama law. But what that meant is all of a sudden IVF and the issue of infertility went from being a very niche issue that you likely only knew about if you or someone very close to you had dealt with infertility to being at the very center of the presidential debate. And so Republicans and Democrats really falling over themselves to position themselves as the pro parent, pro IVF party. And this came, of course, at the same time that Maha was really gaining a lot of traction with the admin as well, or the future administration, if you will. And so what we saw during those couple of months was first this flurry of education efforts and outright promotion of ivf where one, a number of lawmakers and most Americans didn't really know about the issue of infertility. They knew more or less that birth rates were declining across the United States. And that's that trend is unfortunately continued year after year. But what they didn't know is about all of the different ways that you can treat infertility. So most people fell in line promoting IVF because they thought that that was the solution. If you deal with infertility, you get ivf. It's a one size fits all solution. But with MAHA creeping on the scene and a number of efforts with restorative reproductive medicine, people started to rethink it and realize that infertility is not just a disease, but it's a symptom of underlying reproductive health conditions. And so whereas the president initially began promising an IVF mandate to address infertility and address declining birth rates, Maha and a number of social conservatives worked really hard to shift the conversation away from just a one size fits all pharmaceutical to real root cause care. And so Maha was really at the center of helping provide that language of promoting root cause care, of addressing chronic conditions, and redirecting the public toward a more holistic view of treating infertility. Yeah, but it's been, I think, a complicated relationship ever since then because of course, IVF for a number of months and even into the first few months of the administration really was the focus up until recently, where you've seen a number of Maha influencers and those in the policy space really redirect the conversation to restorative reproductive medicine, which is where a lot of the base and especially young women really are on this issue.
- [08:31]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
Back to it with Emma in just a second. But first, if you guys have been following me for a long time, you'll know that maybe one of the most important subjects I talk about all the time is the fight for life and pro life movement. Specifically, right now, somewhere in America, as you're watching this, there is a young woman who is currently contemplating an abortion. Maybe she's in the parking lot of an abortion clinic. Maybe she's scrolling through her phone in the waiting room, trying to talk herself out of a life ending decision. She's looking for someone, anyone, to help her have the courage to choose life. That's exactly where our friends at Live Action come into play. Meeting women at that exact moment when they need help the most. Before the abortion, before the decision is made, they put life affirming truth and hope right in front of the women who need it the most. We spend a lot of time talking about changing our country's abortion laws and that is hugely important and something we need to keep fighting for. But laws don't often change hearts and that's what Live Action is focused on the most. They're reaching millions of people online every single day with life changing and life saving content that reminds moms they are not alone and their baby has value from the moment they are conceived. About one in five women who see Live Action's content end up choosing not to have an abortion. Think about that. One single video, one message of truth, one piece of content ends up saving a life for forever. And for just $50 you can help get that content in front of another mom who needs to hear the truth the most. You could be the reason that she chooses life. Text isabelle to 70723 or visit liveaction.org donate isabel to give Today.
- [09:59]
Isabel Brown
This is so interesting to me, and I don't want to get too into the weeds of this Supreme Court decision, but we did do an episode about it on my show before I joined the Daily Wire, way, way before the show was back the way that it is right now as a live stream, right when it came out in Alabama. And it was so, so, so fascinating to dive into because it was really the first time in American law that we have seen any sort of declaration that an embryo preborn baby is, legally speaking, a human being. I've seen a massive debate in the pro life world rage on about IVF because of this, and people are starting to do really fascinating studies about the percentage of people created through IVF that actually end up being born in America. We don't have mandates for any of these studies. We don't even have mandates for reporting on the number of abortions that happen in our country, which is objectively insane and terrible for women's health. How can we possibly understand the havoc that's being wreaked on this generation of women's bodies. But most estimates from Europe are suggesting that literally 7% or less of all the human beings that we create for IVF end up becoming born children. Otherwise they are stored in a freezer in perpetuity forever. And you still see babies that were created decades and decades and decades ago stuck in freezers today. They are discarded and basically just thrown in the trash can, which is devastating to think about for a unique human being that's never existed before, will never exist again, or they are genetically experimented upon. And we've seen that kind of operating hush hush behind the scenes in the scientific world for a long time, but very few people wanted to talk about it outside the realm of bioethics classes in graduate school classrooms. Now that this is becoming a more mainstream conversation, I think we're really wrestling with this idea of legally speaking, is an embryo a preborn baby, a legal human being? Do you think we're going to trend more in that direction with more of these lawsuits that might happen across the country?
- [11:49]
Emma Waters
I think that's the inevitable outcome. So I was actually just at Harvard presenting on this very topic a month ago, and one of the points that has stood out to me since the Alabama decision is that in policy, even in court law, and certainly in our public debates, we like to talk about everything except what a human embryo actually is. And so, on the one hand, you have these insane organizations like Orchid or Nucleus Genomics promising that they can test your human embryo for over 2,000 conditions, including sex, personality, looks and health outcomes, and in the same breath telling you that that genetically complete and distinct human embryo is not a person or isn't a real being. And those two simply cannot be true.
- [12:31]
Isabel Brown
Nucleus Genomics, not to interrupt you, I'm pretty sure, made a website called pick your baby. Yeah, There you go. PickYourBaby.com is Nucleus Genomics. And it's all about how you can design your ideal baby, have your best baby, and to pick out all of these genetic conditions. Wild.
- [12:45]
Emma Waters
But don't worry, it's not a person. It's just this clump of cells. But also a clump of cells. We can tell you everything you could ever want to know about it.
- [12:52]
Isabel Brown
Wow.
- [12:52]
Emma Waters
And so I think it's just really one of those issues. We can't move forward until we address this issue. And what's actually particularly wild, and the Alabama Supreme Court decision pointed this out, is that as technology develops with artificial wombs, with in vitro gammatogenesis, with synthetic embryos, none of which I am endorsing, but those are just the things that scient scientists are working on, the question of what a human embryo is, is only going to become more important. So in the Alabama Supreme Court decision, Justice Parker actually noted that if they were to take the defendant's position that the location of the human embryo, namely within a biological womb, defined its worth as a person or not then a child conceived and gestated through an artificial womb at birth, quote unquote, would not legally be considered a human person in Alabama law.
- [13:40]
Christy from Lululemon
Wow.
- [13:40]
Emma Waters
And so they said, well, so if you support artificial womb wombs, then are you saying that child is not a child because they've never been in a biological womb? And based on your definition, that's where you go. And of course any sane person would say, well, of course that human embryo is now a human person. But our state law definitions rely so heavily on the location of the human embryo that that child would, technically speaking, not be a quote, person. Which really just underscores the folly of our lack of definitions and our denial of the humanity of the human embryo from that moment of conception onwards.
- [14:12]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
And while we're on the subject of changing people's heart, I feel like this time of year we always think we're
- [14:17]
Isabel Brown
supposed to be the most relaxed, and then somehow it ends up being one
- [14:20]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
of the most stressful and busiest times of the year. Instead, families are traveling, you've got kids, summer camp and sports practice. Back to school is right around the corner. The family routine has disappeared. And if you're like me, typically, your prayer routine can disappear right alongside with it. That's one of the reasons that I love Hallow, the world's largest prayer app, so much. It gives me an easy way to stay rooted in my faith, in my daily routine, even when everything feels totally chaotic and off the rail. This month, Hallow is launching the fifth edition of one of my favorite content offerings on the platform, their Saints in Seven Days series, featuring St. Paul, Ruth and St. Joan of Arc, led by quarterback Fernando Mendoza, Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt, and Sister Mary Bethany. I love that these series are not just history lessons about who the saints are, but they tell stories of real people who actually struggled, questioned, persevered, and ultimately said yes to give everything to God. Their stories have so much to teach us about what it means to live faithfully and pursue sainthood ourselves Today. If you got a lot of summer travel still on the agenda before back to school, Hallow is also home to 10,000 other guided prayers, meditations, songs, podcast episodes, you name it. So if you've been waiting to build your prayer life more substantially into your daily routine, you know exactly where to look. Go download Hallow today and use code Isabel for three months free@halloween.com Isabel before
- [15:36]
Isabel Brown
we get too much into IVF, you mentioned something in there that I think a lot of people still don't know about. I've gone down the Rabbit hole for a couple of weeks on, and I'm devastated to see how crazy it is. In vitro gametogenesis, or iv, what is that? Can you tell us?
- [15:50]
Emma Waters
You know, Isabel, what if a scientist came creepily stalking into the studios, grabbed a little bit of your saliva and took it back to a lab and started genetically modifying your DNA? And then what if I told you that they could take that genetic modification and turn it into a viable sperm or viable egg totally apart from any reproductive gametes that your body may or may not not produce? And that's what IVG is in a nutshell. Meaning that humans can create children that they are genetically related to, but are not coming from their natural gametes one way or the other. So what IVG promises is the ability for women to create an unlimited number of eggs or an unlimited number of sperm. And so notably in Japan, where this technology was first pioneered, it was pioneered specifically for women who were bor without biological eggs. So this is a very rare condition. But they wanted to find a way so that those women could have biological children. Very, very small percentage of the population in the United States. The two firms that are pushing and promoting this technology are primarily run by gay men who want to have gabies, as we call them, who are biologically related to both men. So one man produces the sperm. The other man can use IVG to modify his genetics to create a viable egg. Then you can use IVF, create human embryos that are 100% related to two men, utterly eviscerating any understanding of human biology, human conception, the inherent need that children have for a mother and a father, not to mention anything else. But it's asexual reproduction. It's same sex reproduction. It's also just the corrupt generation of children, even from human embryos. So human embryos could be modified to create more human embryos, to create more human embryos.
- [17:41]
Isabel Brown
This is what I've seen. So basically they like create five or six generations of people of a family ending up with the sixth generation being genetically related to both of the dads in this scenario. And they typically end up just discarding the five generations before this baby that's implanted via ivf. It's horrifying.
- [18:00]
Emma Waters
And then use genetic testing to select all the traits that you want, or even gene editing just to modify the traits that you want. And you truly have a eugenic consumer eugenics at its fine wild to see
- [18:11]
Isabel Brown
where IVF inevitably does lead. And I think this is why people tend to be so cautious. The more we learn about what appears to be a beautiful technology helping people with this devastating loss that they can't naturally conceive a baby. Get to experience what you and I know as moms to be the most joyful purpose giving vocation you could possibly pursue. Unfortunately, like most things in our very broken and increasingly secular society, no one is asking the question bioethically Just because we can, should we? So backing up to what most people think IVF is used for, before it gets to the crazy levels of IVG and gene editing and pickyourbaby.com, why do you think that has been the band aid solution that so many people are running to? And how is infertility affecting so many people across our country right now?
- [18:58]
Emma Waters
Yeah, this really is a question of awareness and access. So in the 1970s, wind in vitro fertilization was first developed and came on the scene. It was a narrowly targeted procedure meant to address two primary conditions. The first is blocked fallopian tubes, which literally prohibited a woman from conceiving a child. And the second was for couples who were undergoing chemotherapy and cancer treatments and may lose use of their gametes. And so IVF was meant to address those two narrowly tailored problems. But unfortunately, what we've seen this since then, and especially in recent years, is that in vitro fertilization has not merely been used for those narrow instances, and not even just for the issue of infertility, but it's a technology that bypasses the man and woman's body to create human embryos outside of the sexual act for any person, for any reason, as long as you have enough money to afford it. And so one of the really frustrating things that we've seen in recent years is that IVF hasn't even simply been promoted as a treatment for infertility, but also elective uses of IVF to select the sex of your baby overwhelmingly in favor of female babies, mind you, or in cases of same sex couples and single persons, to create your own family apart from a natural and healthy relationship. And in many, and I think, like, the reason that it's gained the prominence that it has is that for so long, that's what academics, that's what policymakers, that's what the general public has been aware of, and that's what they've really pushed and promoted. And it really comes down to that definition of infertility we talked about at the beginning. Because if you view infertility as a disease, period, then IVF is the seeming treatment or procedure to heal or overcome that disease.
- [20:44]
Isabel Brown
Interesting.
- [20:44]
Emma Waters
But while IVF can create human embryos it can't actually address any of the underlying causes that are resulting in a diagnosis of infertility. So unlike places like the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, one of the largest fertility organizations in America, Maha and so many other doctors have made a huge point of talking about how infertility is the result of things not working as they should in the man or woman's body. And there's over a hundred potential conditions that could be at play. And what's so interesting, as we saw in the big exclusive in People magazine about the young woman treating her infertility, her unexplained infertility in her case, when a couple receives a diagnosis of infertility, not only is it typically shared between both partners, but there's usually four or more underlying conditions.
- [21:33]
Isabel Brown
Wow.
- [21:33]
Emma Waters
But IVF doesn't treat any of them. They completely set aside the health of the man and woman and instead say, well, we'll create you human embryos, we'll genetically test them to pick the best ones to increase your success rates. But at the end of the day, that man and woman are no healthier than they were before. And in many cases, as we've seen in countless studies, the woman is actually far more unhealthy and the human baby conceived as more unhealthy due to all of the adverse risks that come with IVF itself. And so a huge shift in the conversation, I think, is people realizing that infertility is not what they thought that it was. And so that's where you come down to the awareness and access piece. And so, interestingly, earlier this year, Carrots did a survey of American voters and found that 89% of respondents would prefer a root cause approach to treating their infertility before IVF. And 79% said that if they had known there was another option other than ivf, they would have done that first.
- [22:34]
Isabel Brown
Wow.
- [22:35]
Emma Waters
And so this is a massive example of the more people hear about this technology of root cause care for infertility, the more they want it and the more frustrated they are that their doctors, that their fertility clinics never told them about it and just put them on a one size fits all, really conveyor belt towards IVF without actually fully addressing the underlying causes at play.
- [22:55]
Isabel Brown
That is such a powerful articulation of the conveyor belt medicine that we see in fertility right now. I see so many of my friends navigating this in real time. And just anecdotally, I'm sure she wouldn't mind me sharing. One of my best friends dealt with unexplained Infertility, a term that you just mentioned, with her husband for upwards of three years after they got married, trying to conceive a baby. And they went to every single specialist, they did every single test, essentially, we're told for three plus years on paper everything's fine. We have no logical explanation for why you can't conceive a child. So we're going to give you this slap diagnosis of unexplained infertility, which frankly, on her behalf, I was really offended for, because what do you mean unexplained? Of course there's an explanation for what might be going on in your body or his body. Something is not working properly in order for you to naturally conceive a baby. Why aren't they knocking on every single door and trying to ask and answer every single question repeatedly throughout the process? The very first thing that they kept trying to shove them into was ivf. Ivf, ivf, ivf. It's so easy. Everybody does it. It's gonna be expensive, but it's okay, we can help get you a loan for that and immediately the problem's gonna be solved and you can have a baby in your arms in 10 months. Realistically speaking, they were deeply uncomfortable by that A because they're devoutly Catholic and the church is very clear about ivf. But secondarily, they just felt so commercialized by the entire experience, like it was almost a self fulfilling prophecy of, well, we're not even gonna ask the question of what's wrong with you. You, we're just gonna make $30,000 off of you through this round of IVF and then you can do it again and again and again and again. And it's gonna be so easy and we're gonna take care of everything immediately. And it just felt gross to both of them. Amazingly, they kept asking all the right questions and went to virtually the only place in the country that is doing some exploratory surgeries to figure out mostly if women have endometriosis, which lo and behold, my friend was dealing with in Omaha, Nebraska, and she had an exploratory surgery. They then did a follow up to clear out the endometriosis that had gone undiagnosed. Through her whole adult life, she had been dealing with debilitating period pain and been put on birth control again. Another band aid solution for all of this stuff, for all of it. And within a few months, they were expecting twins naturally. And everything is beautiful. They'll have their babies in a couple weeks, which I'm so excited For. But I hear this story over and over and over and over again and it feels to me to be a massive slap in the face to both men and women, but particularly women that the entire obstetrics and gynecological industry in our country says, eh, we just don't really have an explanation for you, but pay us 30 to 50 grand and we'll give you a baby.
- [25:21]
Emma Waters
This is what is so insane is that there have been studies done showing that over the course of a medical school career, the knowledge of fertility does not increase, meaning that doctors are not even being taught how to properly assess and diagnose infertility, because IVF has just been the assumed one size fits all band aid. And so it's not even an issue of raising your arms at your doctor for misleading you. It's that they themselves don't know. And so they're doing the very basic fertility tests that the American Society for Reproductive Medicine recommends. But those basic fertility tests don't even come close to the kinds of tests that are being done in a routine restorative reproductive medicine appointment to begin with. And so then they're saying, well, we've done the best we can. We've checked these three basic biomarkers. I guess we should just move to ivf. And I think you and I could probably share horror stories day in and day out. But one of the recent just insane encounters that I. One of my friends told me about is she and her husband went to a fertility clinic just for a basic fertility assessment. They weren't terribly concerned about infertility yet, but they just wanted to see where they are, where they were in the process. They walk in, the doctor looks at them and says, you know, I've already checked, your insurance does cover egg freezing. So if you want to start that process today, we can you just let me know today. And our friends just looked at her and she said, said, no, we just want to look at our charts and understand why we haven't conceived yet. And the doctor was like, oh, I mean, yeah, sure, we can do that too. And they were horrified.
- [26:48]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
And like today, just give me your
- [26:49]
Emma Waters
ex today, just like here's. He talked to our financial aid department. We can help you get set up here. So absolutely insane. The approach that we've taken, that it's really just a matter of cost. If we cover the cost, you can do ivf. And this couple, who by the way is not conservative, nor are they even religious, walked out with such a bad taste in their mouth, they're now working with a Fertility awareness specialist to actually understand how their cycle works and start diagnosing why they maybe haven't conceived yet. But we had this bizarre conversation where I just, as a policy analyst, not a medical professional, just sat down, talked through the research literature with them, pointed out here, the, here are the medical specialties, here's what they're doing. And they looked at me and they said, emma, that was more information than we heard from any of the fertility doctors that we've met with. With. Which is heartbreaking on so many levels because it means that there are millions of Americans who are struggling with infertility who simply aren't getting the information they need. And the reality is, is that while we've seen birth rates decreasing year after year and there's so many different causes that we can get into, one of the ones that we can't overlook is the fact that infertility has been on the rise in the last two decades. There are more and more Americans who desperately desire to have a baby who are being physically prohibited from doing so because of these underlying conditions like endometriosis, which, by the way, endometriosis is present between 30 and 50% of the time when a couple struggles with infertility. So it is a massive driver.
- [28:15]
Isabel Brown
Why wouldn't they look for it?
- [28:16]
Emma Waters
And it's so hard to look for because sometimes your, your scans can come back accurate. Sorry, Sometimes your scans can come back clear, sometimes your labs can come back clear, and endometriosis can still be present. And so it requires working with a professional who really knows what they're looking for. And unfortunately, that's not going to be your REI at a standard fertility clinic. And so, yeah, so just, I think numbers, untold numbers of Americans are finding themselves in this position. And actually a preprint study that came out on Monday puts the numbers to the suspicion that a lot of us in the fertility space have had for decades. And so it's this. They found that looking at data of a over 5 million patient claims over 4 years that when a couple was receiving treatment for infertility, between 70 and 85% of them were doing IVF by month nine. And at the same time, between 13 and 78% of those couples had not received basic fertility workups that were recommended. So they were not getting the root cause care, even the basic root cause diagnostic care that's recommended, but they had started IVF in the majority of those cases.
- [29:28]
Isabel Brown
That's insane.
- [29:29]
Emma Waters
Absolutely insane.
- [29:30]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
Back to it with Emma in just a second. But first, I don't know how often you guys have been thinking about where you're buying merchandise from, but I've always thought merch is kind of underrated. Sure, it's really fun to get a new sweatshirt or a new coffee mug, but it's also a really powerful way of saying, I believe in what these people are building and I want to support it. That's one of the reasons, among many, that I love our daily wire store. It's super easy to browse, easy to find something to check out the that you love or gift to someone you care about. And most importantly, it's incredibly easy to actually check out. Thanks to Shopify, when you're ready to check out, everything is so easy and seamless. If you're a returning customer, you don't even have to type anything in again. They can just check out with a tap. For a business like Daily Wire or anyone out there, that's huge. Shopify takes care of all of the complicated stuff behind the scenes so that entrepreneurs can actually focus on growing their business instead of troubleshooting all the little problems. So whether you're buying from your favorite creators or thinking about supporting a business whose values you care about, or better yet, building a business of your own, Shopify is the trusted platform used by millions of businesses around the world. With Shopify, nothing stands between you and your business. So go make one. Start your free trial today@shopify.com Isabelle how
- [30:38]
Isabel Brown
many Americans are struggling with this ballpark? I mean, I've read many conflicting studies on this. Generally, people say the unexplained infertility side of things is upwards of 1 in 6 couples actively trying to conceive. Yeah, but is that grub growing?
- [30:51]
Emma Waters
It has been growing over recent decades, and there's so many different metrics that you can look at this. But we do know that of couples who are dealing with infertility, rates have gone up 2 to 3% in the last decade alone. And when it comes to unexplained infertility, you're looking at up to 30% of IVF cases being due to, quote, unexplained infertility. Which is really just a way of saying we have no idea what the problem is. But here's IVF in case that fixes the problem. And maybe it does. And maybe some of those couples do have one, maybe two kids. But again, they are still no healthier than they were before and no closer to understanding what's going on. And this is why, even in the restorative reproductive medicine space, there are multiple studies of couples who had two, on average, two failed rounds of IVF still going on to conceive and bear children at 30% or higher. Because when they actually address the underlying problems, their body was able to naturally conceive and bear children. And not just one child at 30, 30 to $60,000, but multiple children, as many as the Lord would give them, because they'd actually restored what was broken.
- [31:56]
Isabel Brown
Having studied this for so long as a policy analyst, I'm curious, what do you think is contributing to this rise in infertility? Is it environmental? Is it diet? Is it lifestyle? What's contributing?
- [32:09]
Emma Waters
It's all of the above and more. So the couple of things that we see first is you are seeing an increase in endocrine disruption, from the chemicals and fragrances we're spraying on our bodies to the pesticides we're using on our food. You're seeing cases of women far more likely to delay getting married and delay having children. And the reality is, is that if you're 40 and having your first baby, it's just going to be a lot harder than if you're 25, 28, or 30 having your first baby. And all of that would be considered infertility, even if age is one of the dominant factors. Another huge piece of the conversation is our heavy reliance on hormonal birth control control. And it's not just that the use of hormonal birth control directly impacts fertility, but it's all of the conditions that that birth control is covering for. So take, for example, a young woman who's 14 or 15 suffering from those debilitating periods you mentioned earlier. And instead of diving in and understanding, well, why is she suffering this much from her period, she's oftentimes just prescribed the birth control pill. Well, 5, 10, 15 years go by, she gets married, she's ready to have kids.
- [33:14]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
Kids.
- [33:15]
Emma Waters
She comes off of the birth control pill, and not only does she start experiencing those horrific symptoms again, but she's not able to conceive. And there have been multiple stories and reports that have shown that what maybe began stage one endometriosis when she was in high school has now progressed to even stage four endometriosis by the time she's ready to have kids. Because while the birth control may have suppressed the painful symptoms associated with endometriosis, it actually did nothing to stop the progression of the disease. And so you're seeing so many cases of women who are managing the symptoms but not receiving the care they need, and then the problem just gets worse and worse and worse over Time such that they're actually in a far more difficult position when it comes time to conceive children. And if you're not working with a good endometriosis specialist, even the surgeries they do could actually prohibit your fertility further. If they're simply burning off the tissue rather than removing it, that can have a major impact on your overall fertility outcomes. So all of those issues and more have really contributed to the increase that we've seen in fertility rates. But I'm sure there's even more that we can go into from there.
- [34:24]
Isabel Brown
Oh, I'm sure we could do a PhD level dissertation on that conversation. But it is interesting to me that the drop off in the fertility rate that we've seen in America, America that's dramatically declining, not just America, across the world, seems to be coming from two different factors. And I'm curious what you're seeing at Heritage on this front. One is the rise in medical infertility, the inability to naturally conceive a child, which is a huge growing problem, as we've talked about for the last several minutes. The other is just the lifestyle choice not to have children and the desire that we see rising within this next generation to put yourself first, not lock
- [34:59]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
yourself down in a marriage, to never
- [35:01]
Isabel Brown
make sure that your life is destroyed by children. We see this message everywhere, all over our country, every single day. What is contributing more and why do you think that lifestyle factor is becoming such a prevalent part of our culture?
- [35:13]
Emma Waters
Oh, gosh, yes, to both of those. And this is where I think both sides of that conversation intersect so clearly with ivf. Because how is IVF sold to young women in particular while they're told that when they're younger you can freeze your eggs, delay your fertility, prioritize your career. That's the most important thing to establish your yourself. And don't worry, IVF will be waiting for you when you're ready to have babies when you're 38, 40, 43 years old. And what's so wild is there have been studies done both at the state level, corporate level, and even in countries such as Israel that when there is an IVF mandate or a heavy IVF subsidy offered, it actually doesn't increase the overall birth rate, but it does influence who has babies and when. So we have found across all of these studies that younger women are less likely to have a child because they're delay their fertility and older women are slightly more likely to have a child with the IVF technology. But on the whole, it doesn't increase the birth rate and in one case in particular, women were actually more likely to delay getting married because if you tell them you have all of this time to pursue your career and quote, that's the most important thing. Babies can come later. Well, they believe you, and the technology is sold is largely a foolproof option for them. And thankfully, in recent years, I think there's been been a lot more awareness and a lot more of an honest conversation that you can't simply rely on these technologies to follow through, because in a large percentage of cases, they don't. And so the technology question, I think, is so central to both aspects of medical infertility and our cultural messaging. And this goes back to Something that Marshall McLuhan, a philosopher in the 1960s, he wrote a lot on. He wrote like the media is the message, and a lot on philosophy and technology. And he noted that you can't just judge a given technology based on what it does, but on the social and psychic consequences it bears on society. So what he meant by that was that technology must be assessed in the way that it influences the way that we live and the way that we see the world. And with IVF and reproductive technology, the way that we've seen it impact our broader society is that it's told us that fertility is something that can be controlled, controlled can be managed on our own timeline, and can be delayed until we're ready to have kids, whether that's pursuing education or career or me first, personal pursuits and leisure prior to that. And so those two seem largely interchangeable in the way that our culture has shifted towards a me first approach, because we've thought and believed and been told that technology would be there to save us at the end. And unfortunately, that's just not the case. And then, practically speaking, right, the longer you wait to have kids, the fewer years you have with your kids and the fewer years you even have with your grandkids. And that's a whole, I think, social and spiritual heartache that's coming for our generation in particular, the more that they delay children just willingly. Yeah, but again, as you mentioned earlier, we don't have good reporting on any of this, which is something lawmakers, we have a lot of policy on, we would love to talk about. Because if we don't actually know why people are delaying having kids, if we don't know why they're using IVF in the first place, or how many people are utilizing it for those purposes, it'll be really hard to fully understand the problem we're dealing with.
- [38:24]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
And finally, before we get Back to this conversation about reviving the American family and what it's going to take to do that. I am so honored to be supported by our friends at Grand Canyon University who are putting that value right at the heart of preparing the next generation to succeed after college. We're constantly hearing that young Americans are directionless and void of morals and losing hope in the future.
- [38:43]
Isabel Brown
But I think that's only a limited
- [38:45]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
part of the story actually breaking through and being told. Everywhere I go, I meet students and other gen zers who are ambitious, hard working, and they're eager to make a real difference in the world. The problem isn't a lack of potential or a lack of real values. It's finding institutions that invest into that potential and those values from the get go. And that's why I love Grand Canyon University. They believe that education should prepare students for more than just a career, but to lead in our culture with values and to deepen their faith along the way. And at a time when the cost of college seems to be going up every single year, everywhere else, GCU is bucking the status quo. And they have kept their tuition rate exactly the same on their main campus for the last 17 years, unheard of anywhere else in the country. In just 2025, they awarded more than $400 million in academic scholarships to their students. We desperately need more graduates in this next generation who are ready to lead our culture with wisdom, with conviction and with courage, not just credentials or indoctrination. That's exactly what GCU is doing through its unique purpose driven education. So if you're looking where to pursue your higher education today, head to GCU Edu to check them out.
- [39:50]
Isabel Brown
That's fascinating to hear that it doesn't really impact the birth rate because this administration has made it a key priority to increase access to free ivf. That's been a huge initiative of the president in order to combat the declining birth rate. Right.
- [40:03]
Emma Waters
Yeah.
- [40:03]
Isabel Brown
How can we get that message out and the evidence out in front of the right people to make sure that they know that?
- [40:09]
Emma Waters
Yeah.
- [40:09]
Christy from Lululemon
So this is something.
- [40:10]
Emma Waters
This is a study that Limestone at the Institute for Family Studies has originally published and has really been pushing. But I think one, it's more conversations like these and just putting the data in front of lawmakers and saying, sure. On paper you think, well, IVF creates babies and more babies, so more IVF means better birth rates for everyone. But in reality, again, the technology is just not that linear and it's not that reliable. As we've said a few times on this show. And so I think one is realizing just all of the studies that are in place, including Israel, which has relied heavily on IVF and yet at the same time has influenced delayed marriage patterns and the way that they're having babies. And I think also realizing that the reasons that people are not getting pregnant are so much more common, complex. And so if you're looking at subfertility, for example, there's an estimated 9.7 million women alone who were dealing with subfertility, whether that's due to PMOs, hormonal imbalances, endometriosis or other lifestyle factors, not even to mention male factor infertility in its own category. And IVF is not always going to address the problem if they're not able to actually sustain that pregnancy because their body's not healthy enough if miscarriage rates continue to remain at the level that they are. And so instead there was actually a simulation study that recently came out talking about how if those women in particular received root cause care for their reproductive health conditions, you could actually see a 14% increase in the birth rate. Taking us, that's massive, which is huge. And this is just a simulation study. Right. But taking us from 1.6 births to far closer to the 2.11 replacement rate that we're aiming for simply because we're actually making Americans healthier rather than selling them an expensive treatment that they maybe can't afford and won't necessarily help them have the babies they want.
- [42:03]
Isabel Brown
So, perfect world, what's the answer then? If, if pushing IVF isn't going to solve the fertility crisis, which I think is appropriate to say we are living through right now, is an all out crisis. What's it going to take? Policy and clinically.
- [42:16]
Emma Waters
Yeah. So the Trump administration recently wrapped up their big accepted fertility benefits benefits comment period. This is what started as the IVF mandate on the campaign trail, turned into the IVF executive order in 2025, and finally was presented as an optional, fully customizable benefit that employers could adopt for fertility issues. And so that comment period just wrapped up where lawmakers where everyday Americans could send in their recommendations, their desires for what they really want to see from the the administration. And in a preliminary analysis of all the comments submitted, what's so fascinating is about 75% of them were in favor of root cause care for infertility and in particular restorative reproductive medicine, while less than 15% was calling simply for more IVF. And so what that tells me is that this public comment period, which relies heavily on everyday American you're seeing this incredible push from the base for more root cause care, because as they learn more about the treatment options that are available, the more hungry they are for something that truly treats their infertility and leaves them healthier than they ever were before. And so I think the first thing is for the administration to continue leaning heavily into root cause care for infertility into restorative reproductive medicine. So not only tailoring the accepted free fertility benefit to really underscore and promote root cause care, but also looking at all of the other initiatives within hhs, be it NIH or Office of Population affairs and so on, to target our research, our grants, and our access to care around body literacy, fertility awareness based methods that teach men and women to track and understand their cycle so that they can both diagnose underlying conditions, but also optimize conception or space pregnancies if they want to, and then also root cause care for infertility. And we've seen in the last couple of months alone a lot start coming out on this issue. But there's just so much more that needs to be done. And I think one of the major things that I would love to see is even beyond the policies that we're doing, I would love to see the administration feel like they have the confidence to lead with root cause care for infertility and say, hey, we know the base. This is what the base wants. This is what young women, women really want to see. And instead of being concerned that we're going to offend the IVF lobby, which is massive and well funded, totally, we should actually just provide women what they want. And we're seeing that. So even Katie Britt, Senator Katie Britt, who's been one of the biggest champions of IVF in the White House, she recently published an op ed where she was talking about the crisis of endometriosis, how it's one of the top drivers of infertility. And it was pretty funny. She had a line halfway through where she said, of course, course I am a big supporter of IVF and believe we need more ivf. But at the same time, what if we address the root causes of ivf? And I was like, yes, this is
- [45:06]
Isabel Brown
the way we're moving.
- [45:08]
Emma Waters
Like you're seeing this Overton window shift. The more people understand, and frankly, the more they understand that like for young women, this is the kind of medicine and technology we really want to see. We're done with the over medicalized approach. So promote restorative reproductive medicine. We have lawmakers who have introduced this federally Multiple times now, states such as Arkansas have actually enacted state level legislation promoting root cause care for infertility, which is a huge win. And so seeing more states move in that direction, either alongside IVF or just as good medical care apart from IVF and then more action from the Trump administration on this very point, I'd be
- [45:45]
Isabel Brown
remiss if I didn't wrap up with a message to real people who are living through this, because a huge component of our community online is struggling with infertility every single day and that's hard for us to navigate. I've been incredibly lucky in the journey of conceiving my daughter. I wasn't really even trying to have a baby when I found out that I was. And I don't know why. I had totally convinced myself, like all of my cousins and my friends, it was going to be such a grueling, difficult journey. But it was interesting to feel the balance of sharing that news with my friends, my online community, while also knowing, heartbreakingly, that so many of them are still struggling through this. If we can give a message of encouragement and support to those who are struggling with this out there and need a direction forward and don't know, because they don't know what their doctor's not telling them, what the best options for them are, what would you say?
- [46:30]
Emma Waters
The first thing I would say is that you're not alone. That this is an incredibly painful and frustrating journey precisely because the desire to have a child and the gift of the child is so great. So for all of the heartache that you're experiencing, it's rightly wrong, reflecting the depth of desire and goodness that children bring. And so I think, yeah, first just starting with you're not alone and there are so many people who are here to work with you and walk with you on this journey. And then the second thing I would say is, first thing, right off the bat, start Googling real fertility awareness based methods that allow you and teach you how to track your cycle, not just the Flow app. If you have the Flow app, you should literally delete it right now and get a real fertility monitoring system system and start understanding what's happening in your cycle. Because in a lot of cases, young women are thinking that they're ovulating at one time, ovulating at a different time. And so their infertility may be due to something as, quote, unquote, simple as just optimizing your conception window, which actually doesn't require surgery or a long process. And then after you've done that, start looking up natural procreative technology. Look at Neo Fertility and look at fem. These are the leading medical specialties under the restorative reproductive medicine banner of specialists and doctors who are trained in assessing and understanding the root causes of your infertility and are really committed to walking with you on that journey, not just putting you on a conveyor belt of medical care that really has the ultimate goal of IVF and a high turnaround in prices. But I think the thing that I would really leave people with is the amount of agency you have. The thing that can be so difficult with infertility is it leaves you feeling powerless, like your own body is working against you and despite your best efforts, there's nothing you can do. And that is simply a lie because you have the agency and thankfully, the medical tools and doctors that are available here in the United States to treat it, as long as we look in the right places.
- [48:27]
Isabel Brown
That's very powerfully said, Emma. I have loved following you and your work over the years. Where can people continue to learn from you and follow the incredible work that you're doing? And listen to Rethinking Fertility, too?
- [48:37]
Emma Waters
Yes, that's exactly right. So I Rethink, recently launched a podcast called Rethinking Fertility and a substack, also under the brand Rethinking Fertility. So go follow along on both of those platforms and then of course, track everything that I'm doing at the Heritage foundation, from policy to education awareness on these issues.
- [48:53]
Isabel Brown
Amazing. I cannot wait to see pictures of your new baby here in the next couple of weeks. And thank you so much for joining us.
- [48:59]
Emma Waters
Thanks so much for having me.