← The Isabel Brown Show
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- [00:00]
A
Folks, I've been working with PureTalk for six years now. PureTalk is veteran led. They've donated over half a million bucks to America's Warrior Partnership, an organization that's on the front lines of preventing veteran suicide. And PeerTalk is creating American jobs with a US only workforce because they're committed to delivering the best experience possible for their customers. And Yes, I love PeerTalk Service. They've got the same tower, same network as the big guys, but for a fraction of the price. I choose to do business with a company that shares my values. So supporting veterans every single day, creating American jobs and you can do the same. Head over to PureTalk.com Shapiro to switch to PureTalk today. That's PureTalk.com Shapiro last night you spent two hours deciding what to wear to the party this morning. It'll take you two minutes to list it on Depop and make your money back. Just grab your phone, snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. The sheer dress and platform heels you'll never wear again. There's a birthday girl searching for them right now. Your one and done look is about to pay for your next night out, or at least the ride home. Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. A few weeks ago, our show broke the Internet a few times when Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, our HHS secretary, said the following no one makes better breast milk than God. Gasp. I know, it's crazy. Turns out breastfeeding is still one of the most controversial topics out there in American culture, in the lens of politics and certainly for for new parents as they navigate the best way to feed their baby. And as I've gone through this this last year, I've had a lot of questions. So I know you do too. Today on the Isabel Brown Show, I'm so excited to be sitting down with a new friend of mine that I've been connecting with on social media. A nurse, a lactation consultant, a podcast host, and most importantly, a mom herself, Therese Dansby, who is giving incredible advice to so many women across the world on the best ways that they can be nourishing themselves and their babies and how we can revive the beauty of breastfeeding again. You guys have sent me a gazillion questions through Instagram, d DMS and emails and Twitter threads and all of the things about my breastfeeding experience, which has been one of truly the most sanctifying journeys of my entire life. I'm incredibly fortunate to still be breastfeeding my daughter 10 months in to her life. And I have no plans to stop anytime immediately soon. But I wish that our culture had a more positive view of the subject. We were more open and willing to talk about it, that dads were more involved in this conversation as well. And that is everything we are going to be diving into today on the Isabelle Brown Show. Therese, I am so excited for you to be joining us on the Isabel Brown Show. And we're gonna have a fascinating conversation today about all things breastfeeding, baby formula, baby nutrition, all of the above. If you are a man, don't go anywhere. This episode is for you too. It's really important that we understand this very, very crucial conversation for the next generation. But for those who might not be familiar with you or your work, why don't you give us a little overview to kick things off?
- [02:51]
B
Yeah, thanks. Well, I'm Therese Dansby. I am a mom of three. I, oh, have been married since 2008 and have been a mom since 2014. And I became a nurse in 2007 and I worked in the NICU for seven or eight years. And then when I had my first baby, I had trouble breastfeeding and I had to solve it on my own and I just kind of took a little career pivot and became a lactation consultant. And I've been doing that for 10 years now.
- [03:17]
A
You also have incredible content on the subject. Can you tell us a little bit about how you jumped into that?
- [03:22]
B
Yeah, well, you know, back in 2016, when Instagram was still kind of new, I thought, hey, if I'm doing home visits, I will talk about breastfeeding on Instagram. And I've been doing that for a while. I have a podcast too, very low key podcast, where I talk about more niche things where maybe in a one on one consult somebody will ask me, like, talk to me about infant sleep or gosh, I think my baby has food allergies. And obviously we'll work on it one on one, but I will also, I have the ability to send them. Here's this podcast interview that I did with an expert that I can vouch for and it's kind of the long answer. Like we'll give you the short answer. We'll work on it, you know, piece by piece. But for people like me who like all the information and kind of want the bigger picture, I have those episodes to send them and help them find more help too.
- [04:09]
A
Hugely important. And I love this subject. I want to jump right into the deep end because I'm a new mom. My daughter's 10 months old. I have been incredibly fortunate, and I'm always very transparent about that, that I've had zero issues breastfeeding whatsoever. My daughter latched onto me about three minutes after she was born, and I've had no major problems with supply. I've never gotten mastitis or any of the major concerns that so many young women are facing today, and that I'm seeing a whole lot talked about on the Internet. But more than anything, I am seeing breastfeeding in a new way, kind of demonized again in culture from so many of the mom bloggers and female influencers out there, and in many ways shaming moms who are loving this experience of breastfeeding our children as you're not better than me or this fed is best movement. Where do you think that that's coming from? And why is our culture so very quickly oscillating between wanting to breastfeed our kids and understanding the nutritional value, the scientific facts behind it, and then all of a sudden just throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, and saying, eh, I feel ugly and weird inside about that, so I don't
- [05:11]
B
want anybody else to do is interesting. I've noticed that when people say I'm so. That I breastfed or I'm so. This was such an achievement. It does feel like you can't really celebrate it because somebody who was not able to or didn't want to. Everybody. It's that bean soup theory. Have you heard of that? Where have you heard of the bean soup?
- [05:31]
A
Yeah, but explain it for watching.
- [05:33]
B
Yeah, so it's kind of like everything has to apply to everybody, and there's no individual choice or action or path anymore. And. And I think we all consume, consume, consume. And it's hard to remember, actually, our personal identity and our, you know, when you're secure in your own identity and if you're a Christian, your identity in God, then it doesn't really matter what somebody else chooses. I think people don't necessarily believe me when I say, like, I actually don't care if you feed formula at all. Like, I really don't. But I'm very happy that my kids have never had formula because I worked really hard to breastfeed. And both can be true. And we live in an era where people have a hard time holding two truths.
- [06:16]
A
Yeah.
- [06:16]
B
the same time.
- [06:17]
A
Back to it with Therese in just a second. But first, you guys know I am incredibly picky about what I put in my body, especially with supplements. And I am so tired of the junk brands that are out there that pretend to care about women but really they are just cutting corners behind the scenes every single time. That is exactly why I love We Heart Nutrition so much. A family owned company from Jacob and Kristen that uses research backed highly bioavailable ingredients that don't have the like cheap fillers, artificial colors, sketchy proprietary blends plus a third party test everything for purity and for heavy metals. I have been taking my supplement game way more seriously in 2026, especially in nourishing my daughter through my breastfeeding journey and I have noticed a huge change in just my day to day baseline health. The more I have taken this seriously and the more I've been incredibly picky about the right supplement brands, not just whatever's trendy on TikTok. The best part though about We Heart Nutrition is their mission. They donate 10% of every single sale to pregnancy resource centers across the United States supporting women and families choosing life. And they've already given over a million dollars doing exactly that. From preconception and pregnancy to postpartum perimenopause and beyond. They have targeted formulas for your specific season of life, whatever that season is. Plus essentials like true Magnesium glycinate for sleep and stress hormone support with clinically studied saffron and omega 3s and probiotics immunity plus gentle iron that's actually easy on your stomach if you're not sure where to start. They have a very quick Easy to do 30 second quiz to get personalized supplement picks for your specific lifesty stage. Head over to take that quiz@weheartnutrition.com and use code ISABEL for 20 off your first order. That's weheartnutrition.com use code ISABELLE for 20% off. That's really well said. I saw most of that backlash on my own social media after I did a few events back to back with Secretary Kennedy in Washington D.C. first I joined him and Secretary Duffy at Reagan National Airport to announce their big new initiative giving grants to airports to provide more breastfeeding spaces for moms. Which is absolutely incredible that our government is paying attention to these things because I certainly have had my own fair share of very difficult airport experiences with my job and in so many other public buildings as well. And then a few weeks later he joined me on my podcast at the White House for their White House New Media row and we kind of started talking about breastfeeding again and people lost their minds. The mainstream media tiktokers, all of these angry, mostly leftist women started screaming their heads off because Secretary Kennedy had the audacity, especially as a man, to say, nobody designs better baby formula than God. Breast milk is how your children are supposed to be nourished in the most ideal circumstance. And that is one of the most controversial things that now he's ever said as HHS secretary. Is there a difference between breast milk and formula? Just to kick things off in this conversation, and what is that substantial difference?
- [09:04]
B
Yeah. You know, I loved that episode, first of all, because it was three manly men standing in a room, like, kind of geeking out about breastfeeding for a few minutes and telling you you were doing a great job. And it's like, man, what would it look like? Men protected breastfeeding instead of sexualizing breasts. Like, it's a totally different approach. And breast milk and formula are different, right? Formula is a formula. It's an equation. It's an attempt to kind of consolidate the macro and micronutrients of breast milk. And, you know, over the years, we've gotten a lot better. It used to be like pet milk in a can, and we've come a long way from that, but it's still an imitation. We don't even know everything that's in breast milk yet. I mean, in the year 2026, there are still hundreds of proteins that have not identified, let alone, you know, named as far as what their function actually is in breast milk. And so the biggest difference is that formula stays the same throughout the entire time that you're feeding it, whereas breast milk changes throughout a feeding. It changes throughout the day, changes throughout the month, especially if you're cycling, and it changes over the duration of time. I mean, colostrum is the early milk that you have, and it's very nutritionally different from breast milk at six months, which is very different than breast milk at 18 months. And your body is giving your baby in real time what they need, whereas formula is just the same thing. You know, it would be like us drinking a can of Ensure for every meal every day for a year. You know, it gets the job done, but it's not the same thing.
- [10:35]
A
One of the major questions I'm getting from people, especially about formula, knowing, okay, maybe breastfeeding is the ideal nutritionally and from a scientific perspective, but maybe I'm struggling with this and I can't produce enough to feed my child, and so I have to supplement with formula. What's the problem with American formula, though? And there seems to be a lot of buzz about this on the Internet, that the ingredients in our formula are substantially different. From the rest of the world. What are we doing wrong?
- [10:59]
B
Yeah, there's, there's a few things to say about that one. First of all, with that black and white thinking, I think that people don't always realize that they can do both if they have a low supply, if they really don't have enough milk, the benefits of breastfeeding are still going to outweigh the formula supplement. And so I think that's important to note too. But we know that the European Union, for example, compared to the fda, the EU tends to have fewer ingredients like in their skin care and they have more regulations on pesticides and what goes in their food and things like that. And so that does carry over to formula a little bit. The biggest thing, my client base, you know, super crunchy moms, when they are, if they are needing to supplement with formula, they're often asking me like for organic, you know, grass fed, but they're also potentially aware of things like MTHFR mutations and asking me, is there any formula that doesn't have folic acid? And in the US there's not because right now the, you know, what goes in baby formula is very strictly regulated, which in a sense it should be. But in the US right now only folic acid acid can go in formula, whereas methylfolate is the form that's in our breast milk. And there, there are just a few European formulas that are now switching over to methylfolate. So they tend to have fewer ingredients and they have their, their version, you know, of the FDA allows methylfolate instead of folic acid. So there are a few differences, but the bigger differences probably are marketing related.
- [12:43]
A
Okay, that's so interesting. How so?
- [12:45]
B
So my cousin Kate is a public health nurse in the uk so I've been chatting with her about this and the, the World Health Organization has a code in terms of the promotion of breast milk substitutes. Things that you should and shouldn't do. The US doesn't follow the code. The UK has been following the code really strictly lately, which maybe has its own pros and cons, but over there the formula companies are not allowed to advertise. They're not allowed send out coupons, they're not sending out samples. Many of the hospitals don't even have formula. If you come into the hospital choosing to formula feed, you got a byob.
- [13:21]
A
Interesting. I had no idea. Yeah, I have a friend who is due in the next couple of weeks. I'm so excited for it. Congrats, Morgan. And she just posted on her Instagram story that she randomly in the mail, got this little care package. Basically, she wasn't sure if it came from an influencer agency, she's a creator. Or how somebody might have gotten her mailing address. Maybe it was her OB GYN's office. And it was two cans of Enfamil, which is one of the leading formula brands. I have been so fortunate that I've never had to go down the formula aisle at the store. So I don't usually read the ingredient labels on some of these things. But she was shocked that on the back of the label, the very first two ingredients were vegetable oil and canola oil, seed oils. And it's come to my attention in the last few weeks that it is mandated for an infant formula in America to contain seed oils, but not for a toddler or as they keep growing up. Can you shed some light on that for us?
- [14:10]
B
Yeah, toddler formulas are different because obviously the assumption is that they're eating food and that the formula is just kind of a top off instead of their. Their primary diet. I know there's a lot of controversy right now about seed oils, but breast milk does contain omega 3s and omega 6s, and you do actually need a balance. Now, there's a difference between organic extra virgin olive oil and like, canola oil. Obviously both are Omega 6s, both are seed oils, but there is a difference. And so formulas, you know, when we're talking about any mass produced food, they're gonna usually choose the cheapest ingredients. Things are improving a little bit. When I first started nursing corn syrup solids, were the sugar in a lot of. Yeah.
- [14:53]
A
Wow.
- [14:53]
B
In a lot of formulas. And now they are moving more towards lactose, which is the primary sugar in breast milk. And so things are improving, but there's still a lot of glad that we're
- [15:02]
A
finally having this conversation as a country, certainly, because I think even five minutes ago, it felt so taboo to even talk about. Are you breastfeeding? Are you feeding your baby formula? You never bring that up in polite conversation ever. You certainly never talk about that in the political realm. I know the first lady of the state of Florida, Casey DeSantis, has had several events the last couple of weeks announcing that the state of Florida is investigating things like heavy metals and toxic compounds in formula. Again, totally shocking. Beyond even the ingredients that you're reading on the label. What are you seeing in the political world with people diving into this formula controversy and trying to make it healthier for our kids?
- [15:37]
B
Yeah, I think that it is needed. I think I still have concerns about the. The ability for formula companies to lobby and advertise and promote. There's a group called the radical moms Union that is just a grassroots organization of moms who are pushing back against the advertising. For example, by Heart had a huge formula recall.
- [15:59]
A
Yes. Just a few weeks ago, right?
- [16:01]
B
Yeah, yeah. And. But their ads were still running on Facebook. And it's just like this. This isn't right.
- [16:08]
A
You know, correct me if I'm misremembering this, but this recall was so substantial that several babies died from botulism poisoning or were in the hospital. I mean, they're in hospital.
- [16:19]
B
Yeah.
- [16:19]
A
Wow, that is incredible. And they're still advertising their product with zero consequences whatsoever.
- [16:24]
B
And so that. That is concerning to me.
- [16:27]
A
Yeah.
- [16:27]
B
I mean, by all means, yeah. Get rid of the heavy metals. Let's figure out the forever chemicals and the microplastics and things like that. Make formula safer, for sure. But I think also formula doesn't need advertising at this point. I mean, it's more the norm than people think it is. I mean, we all know it's there.
- [16:50]
A
No, I think actually formula is the norm. Despite everyone in the medical setting, I think, really starting to push breastfeeding again for so long. When I was born, for example, my mom said, you know, everybody told you it doesn't matter. Just do whatever you want, it's fine. There really is no difference whatsoever. I think that has been the norm for the last several decades, and physicians now are starting to come back around and say, no, actually, breastfeeding is so, so important for your baby. We're going to make you try it, and if you can get there, that's really great. We're going to support you. And most of the time, when you give birth in the hospital today, you do see a lactation consultant before you're allowed to check out. You can follow up with that person. Hugely important. But I still think it's considered weird to breastfeed your kids culturally today. And I don't know how we overcome that. What do you think?
- [17:32]
B
Yeah. And especially beyond, you know, six months. 12 months. And the AAP a few years ago actually aligned with the WHO to say breastfeeding till two is biologically normal. They used to say one. They used to say 12 months up until 2022, 2023, and then they agreed. Actually, it's two. And so. Yeah, but the difference between what's on paper and what's actually being practiced, the gulf is still pretty wide. And a lot of pediatricians, again. Yeah. It just varies so much on your provider because some of them. I had one just this week that asked a mom, like, why are you torturing yourself? And I was like, torturing yourself? That's a really tricky question to ask a mom who's one day postpartum. Who's nipple.
- [18:22]
A
Yeah, okay, that's interesting.
- [18:23]
B
And breastfeeding was painful, and she was flinching, you know, and instead of saying, oh, how can we help you? You know what? Like, let's dive into this. They're just saying, why are you torturing yourself? And so there's still a lot of variety between what's being said on paper and what's being done on a one on one basis.
- [18:40]
A
That seems indicative to me of this larger trend that I'm seeing with messaging of motherhood towards young women in my generation. And everything is just so doom and gloom. Birth is going to literally kill you, probably. So you should never get pregnant to begin with. Pregnancy is gonna make you fat and ugly, and it's really uncomfortable and painful. Breastfeeding is this torturous experience, and then you'll never sleep again and you'll never have a personal life and your career will go out the window and all of the crazy things. There's this huge trend on TikTok right now called the girl with the list. And I don't know if you're familiar with it, but there's a whole lot about breastfeeding on this list as one of the infinite reasons to never want to experience pregnancy, childbirth, or motherhood. And my heart just breaks for that mentality because certainly you get it. You're a mom of three. Motherhood is hard. It is sacrifice embodied in a living person every second of every day. But it's also the most beautiful and sanctifying experience in the entire world because you learn that your joy is rooted in giving to someone rather than what you're receiving. And I have so experienced that in the context of breastfeeding in a way that I wish more people were openly talking about. Talking about breastfeeding today has moms on the brain for me, and moms do so much for us in our everyday lives. Something I've learned a whole lot more since becoming a mom. Whether we're up before sunrise or winding down after a really long day, we do so so much for everyone. And Cozy Earth is all about helping our lovely moms find comfort in every single moment. From the silky softness that starts our morning right to the cozy calm that helps us rest easy at night. It is comfort designed with women in mind and our moms in mind. Especially this week, Only Cozy Earth is doing something extra special for Mother's Day, a rare bogo deal you will not want to miss. Grab a Cozy Earth favorite and gift the mom in your life the kind of sleepwear upgrade she will genuinely love slipping into every single night. Their PJs are lightweight but still cozy. It is dreamy, dreamy soft, and it helps you fall asleep a whole lot faster and stay comfy longer. It drapes beautifully, sleeps cooler than cotton, and keeps your temperature just right all night. Moms if you know, you know. Wildly important I love my cozy Earth PJs. I basically end up wearing them all day around the house on Saturdays and it has been the perfect addition to my closet as I've just needed that little extra luxury in all the chaos of motherhood. Be thoughtful, cozy, easy to love. It is the perfect way to celebrate the woman who gives so much to everyone else. And honestly, you'll probably want to grab one for yourself too. These viral PJs are so good that they sold out during the holidays and now they are back with an exclusive deal only available this week, April 6th through April 12th. Head to cozyearth.com today and use my code ISABELLE to get these PJs for you and someone you love. That's Code Isabelle to get these PJs for you and a loved one. And if you get a Post purchase survey, make sure you mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Isabel Brown show last night. I was at the State of the Union and I was chatting with a friend of mine backstage that I ran into named Chloe Cole and she, you may know, is one of the most famous detransitioners in our country right now. She underwent a radical double mastectomy when she was 15 years old and thought, for sure I'm not a girl, I'm a boy. Was pushed into this by all of the doctors in her life, saying to her parents, your daughter's going to literally commit suicide if we don't immediately castrate her. We gotta take ownership of this now. By the time she was 17 and she was a junior in high school, she was sitting in her psychology class, her mandated psych class in public school in California, and they began learning about different human bonds and ways that people experience an emotional connection with one another, a whole unit of which was breastfeeding, and she immediately found herself bawling her eyes out in her high school classroom thinking, I can't believe I took this opportunity away from myself because now I'll never even have the Opportunity to see if I want to experience something like this. And it was this beautiful moment when I heard her tell me this story months ago. And we talked about it again last night. That I don't think is often presented to young women as what to look forward to and the joyous experiences that come along with all of this. So in all the midst of the fear mongering and the girl with the list and everything young people are seeing about the negativity of breastfeeding, what do you often see as a lactation consultant in your own life as the opposite of that?
- [22:38]
B
Yeah, you know, I saw a really great post the other day that was talking about the Olympians and how they sacrifice everything. It's so physically grueling, you know, day and night to achieve this thing. And then they get applauded for it. But then. And it was comparing it to breastfeeding, and it was saying, why do we get demonized for saying, this is so hard? This is taking everything from me. You know, I'm sacrificing so much to get to this goal, you know, but one is applauded and the other one is like just, you know, it's a formula. Yeah, it's so different. And so I think we have lost. We've lost a lot of the art of discipline and hard things in our culture right now. And, you know, we all know that working out makes you stronger, right? It doesn't feel good in the moment. You're actually causing damage to your body when you work out. Right? You're like micro tears in your muscles. But then the next day, you eat your protein, you drink your water, those heal, they get stronger. Right? And motherhood is the same way. And feeding is so interesting because I don't know what your whole experience has been this last year, but motherhood is overwhelming for a lot of people because it's just so. It's different. And that's why the term matrescence came about in the 70s. It was based off of the word adolescence. It's this entire change in your physical, emotional, mental, political identity when you become a mom. And infant feeding is one of the very few things that you can outsource in motherhood, even when it comes to birth, assuming that you are pregnant with your baby, there's no easy way to get a baby out. You know what I mean? Like, you decide to do it. You hit that point at 35 weeks, and you're like, this baby has to come out. You know, a C section's not a shortcut. You know, vaginal Birth, natural birth, epidural, it's all work. And we can accept that. But then when breastfeeding is work, it's like, oh, but this is, this is so easy to outsource. And so I think that it's easier to separate in that sense. But I find that breastfeeding, and this is what I talk to a lot of my clients about. It's just, it's one of the many ways that your identity as a mother is formed because it is daily, hourly. Yeah, like you said, that self sacrifice, that literal giving of yourself, you know, and it is. We get to co create with God and, and it gives us a little glimpse of what God's love is like. There are so many Bible verses that talk about babies at their mother's breasts or like a weaned child in his mother's arms, you know, talking about comfort and rest and peace. And we get little glimpses of that being able to breastfeed our babies. And then of course we get the hormonal cascade and all of that too. I mean, it's so hard, but it's so good. And all the best things in life are like that.
- [25:28]
A
All the best things in life are worth difficulty to get there. I want to jump into this hormonal cascade a little bit because I see this presented in social media and in the conversations I'm having with friends about this as a negative, that all of your hormones are freaking out and you have no sense of reality and it's the worst experience you're ever going to have as a woman. I know I've read countless studies about just how much percentage wise your hormones drop off the cliff right after you give birth to your baby, which is of course what stimulates breastfeeding almost immediately. I found that to be a really beautiful experience. And that's not to discount people who are experiencing postpartum anxiety or postpartum depression. I was very fortunate not to deal with too much of that myself. But I remember looking at my daughter when I was feeding her the first
- [26:11]
B
week or so that I brought her
- [26:12]
A
home as I'm rocking her in our nursery every two hours, doing all the craziness all the time around the clock. And I remember looking down at her and actually feeling the sensation on the. Of falling in love with someone maybe for the first time in my life. I certainly was head over heels for my husband when I met him, but the actual sensation of falling for someone I had never experienced before. And I wish we talked about it more in that way.
- [26:35]
B
Yeah, it is very primal I think that was the thing that struck me. I wanted to breastfeed because I knew it was better for the babies. And in the nicu, you could see a difference. The babies that were breastfed and getting skin to skin were going home sooner. And in my head, logically, yes, breastfeed check. That's the healthy, crunchy, holistic, whatever thing to do. And then, yeah, you feed your baby and you're like, how could I not do this?
- [26:58]
A
Yeah.
- [26:59]
B
The thing to remember, too, is that fertility, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, they're all meant to be a cascade that's packaged together. When you interfere with one of them, you kind of interfere with all of them. And so, yes, your hormones bottom out, the baby comes out, the placenta comes out. You know, you're sweating and you're bleeding, and all of it drops. But you're right. The estrogen and progesterone bott is what allows the prolactin to kick in, and the prolactin is what makes the milk, and then the oxytocin is what you get when the baby latches on. And it's. For most people, it's that overwhelming feeling of love and bonding and connection. And, yeah, it's different than anything else.
- [27:41]
A
One of the major questions I'm getting from our audience right now is actually from men on this subject. I'm very transparent about breastfeeding my daughter. I don't really have any shame about it. And I think for some people, maybe generationally, it's weird that I'm talking about this with male cabinet secretaries at airports and on podcast interviews at the White House, but I'm seeing so much renewed interest in breastfeeding from men in a beautiful way. Maybe because the instant bonding experience with a new dad is so different with a new baby than Mom. You don't have that immediate, tangible connection the same way that mom has throughout her pregnancy and in feeding her baby. What would you say is the biggest point of confusion most men are experiencing about breastfeeding and how we can address it?
- [28:24]
B
Yeah, confusion is a good question. I actually really like it. I work in the hospital and I work in home visits, and I actually really like in the hospital when the dads are in the room. Also, because I'm, like, including them in this conversation, and a lot of them really are fascinated at how the body works. Just to know this is what your body was designed to do, and you can facilitate these things to flow smoothly and work better, and the sooner the better. But I think, and this, when I asked my husband this he said when we had our first, he didn't realize that breastfeeding was not just one of a number of choices. It was a different. It was the baseline and the assumption. But he didn't realize that. He just thought, well, you can choose, and there are lots of choices, and none of them are morally despicable. Right. I mean, feeding your baby is the right choice, but breastfeeding, there are so many. There are so many implications in terms of our identity as women too, in terms of our body image and what our body can and can't do. And the thing with birth is it's quick. It's kind of like comparing the wedding to the marriage. And then you have the birth and then you have breastfeeding. And breastfeeding is like the day in and the day out. And I struggled to breastfeed my first, and my husband wanted to help. Right. Men like to solve problems, and they're
- [29:48]
A
like, hey, sometimes too quickly to solve the problem.
- [29:51]
B
In my office told me that they feed bottles of formula at night. Why can't we do that? And he kind of thought I was torturing myself by saying, like, no, I don't want to do that. You know. But he didn't realize either how sensitive milk supply calibration is in those early days and just how. Yeah, and that was his biggest thing. He said, I didn't realize that it was different than just another option choice. You know, it's not like the things on a menu. It's a whole separate favorite thing. And it's very wrapped up and it's so soothing for the babies, too. There's actually a study, though, that showed that women snuggling and nursing our babies increases oxytocin. But for men playing with their babies and being silly and things like that actually increase their oxytocin. So. Because there's also, you know, I will still meet people that say, well, I want dad to bond with the baby too, so I want him to feed a bottle. And that's fin. But that's not actually how they bond the best.
- [30:55]
A
That's so interesting. What do you think a new dad can do to support moms maybe, who are facing that struggle of maybe an under supply or just struggling to feed their baby at all? Some of the pain and the sleeplessness and everything that goes into that right away.
- [31:09]
B
Yeah, I think that communication and asking questions are the biggest things, like, do you want a solution or do you just want me to support you right now?
- [31:19]
A
I feel like that would solve a lot more problems.
- [31:21]
B
And all Just for breastfeeding. And this is, this goes for formula feeding, bottle feeding parents too, right? Like just a whole different thing in your marriage. And the gray matter in our brains changes. Like we're doing synaptic pruning and early postpartum. We've actually found that happens in men too, and their hormones are actually changing too. It's all the family, the whole family unit is going through it. And so everybody's identity is changing. And then you throw in sleep deprivation and it's like we just need to take a step back and act. You know, do you want solutions or do you want support? And then I think it's really helpful if dads have, first of all, if people can go to a prenatal breastfeeding class. And then even for dad and mom to talk about like, why do you want to breastfeed? You know, and even understanding that can make a big difference in your husband's ability to support you because he knows what it means to you. And then of course, if he takes the class, he understands how it works. He understands that feeding a bottle at night actually doesn't get me more sleep because still have to wake up and pump and things like that.
- [32:27]
A
I love that concept. I was never even introduced to the idea of a prenatal breastfeeding class. It's always presented as the thing that you learn after birth. Immediately in the hospital, we'll come to you and make it easy. What do you typically teach in a class like that?
- [32:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, I love prenatal classes or prenatal consults because I do teach. I teach breast development. Right. So breast development starts when you're in your mother's womb and then it actually does not complete until you brought in a milk supply and weaned a baby. So female breast development is a long process and that's part of how breastfeeding reduces the risk of breast cancer and things like that. So we talk about that and we talk a lot about just how milk is made. Because if you understand that from the get go, you're going to make very different choices at three hours of life, three days of life, things like that that keep you from getting into trouble later with supply.
- [33:22]
A
What are most people mistaking there?
- [33:25]
B
Well, it's easy, it's interesting because breastfeeding initiation rates have gone up in the last few years, but so have early formula supplementation rates. So it's very interesting. So if you know to breastfeed early and often, you know what a good latch looks like, you are setting your long term supply up for success. But if you go 6 hours, 8 hours after delivery without ever having a good feeding or without pumping, your body already starts down regulating some of those hormones. And so if your baby was a late preterm or they're having blood sugar issues or. I mean, there are a million reasons to substitute, and a lot of them are valid, or to supplement, and a lot of them are valid, but sometimes we're missing. If you want a full milk supply, you still need to pump. You know what I mean? And when you're freshly postpartum, if all of that is new to you, it's very overwhelming.
- [34:19]
A
Oh, totally.
- [34:19]
B
I mean, everything's overwhelming. I know. Sometimes I go into the room and I'm like, I know you want to learn, but I can tell that your attention span ended five minutes ago. And, yeah, that's why prenatal classes help, because then you're like, oh, okay, I remember that now. Or, oh, okay, this is where that kicks in.
- [34:36]
A
I'm hearing that a lot from new moms that they tried. They tried breastfeeding. They put themselves out there. They did it for, like, two or three days, and then they decided to give up because their body just wasn't working properly. Certainly, we know it takes longer than two or three days to figure this out and for your body to learn how to regulate your supply and feed your baby. And you feel good about the whole experience. Get over some of that initial pain. Do you think that there is this narrative that it's just too hard, my body's not working, that's becoming too pervasive, even when that's not true with young women. And how do we communicate better through that?
- [35:08]
B
Yeah, I think that's a really loaded question, because I think we're seeing that again in the whole spectrum with the rise of infertility. Interesting. The rise of birth interventions. Um, just all the millions of accounts out there about balancing your hormones, you know, or all this early per perimenopause, you know, content. It. It's like the baseline assumption is that something's wrong.
- [35:33]
A
Yeah. Back to today's riveting conversation about breastfeeding and its importance in just a second. But first, you guys know I am a working mom. I am an entrepreneur. I have a business of my own. And I will never forget how stressful it is starting your first business when you have no idea where to start. There's taxes and paperwork and filings, and it's like, what the heck am I popping, possibly doing? It's so tempting to not even want to take the leap to begin with, but I'm so glad I did. And you can too, thanks to our friends at Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that is powering millions of businesses all around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States, including our very own daily wire shop. Getting started is so easy. They have hundreds of ready to use templates where you can build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Plus, Shopify is packed with very helpful AI tools that help you write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography so that you can accelerate your efficiency wherever you're uploading new products or improving existing ones. If you need to get the word out to new customers, Shopify helps you find them with easy to run email and social media campaigns, making it feel like you really have a whole marketing team behind you, even if you're just a team of one. And even better, you can tackle all of those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics, without juggling multiple websites or platforms. And if you ever get stuck, their award winning 24. 7 customer support is always around to help that icon. Iconic Purple Shop Pay button isn't just recognizable, it is the best converting checkout on the planet, which means a whole lot fewer abandoned carts and a whole lot more sales for you. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Isabel head to shopify.com Isabel that's fascinating to unpack though that the way that we've commercialized fertility and the birth experience and so much more, that's also of course going to impact your breastfeeding experience too.
- [37:17]
B
Yeah.
- [37:17]
A
So we're almost too involved in many ways and we're hyper interventionist. What do you think about that?
- [37:23]
B
That is interesting because actually I work with a lot of home birth clients too and a lot of them are generational home birthers. Right. They were born at home and then of course we get two or three generations and all of us were born at home. But there are, there is a subset of moms out there who have never had a breastfeeding class and don't need it because it's so normal because they saw their siblings being born, they saw their moms breastfeeding and they don't, they don't need the informational education because the like intuitive innate application has been there their whole life and it is just normal to them. So it is very interesting.
- [38:01]
A
That to me is so indicative of a culture shift that needs to happen right now. And I think it's beyond just breastfeeding. I think it's just about normal family life. I've said this a couple times on the show the last few weeks, but I'm basically trying to make it my life's mission to bring my baby everywhere because no one ever sees a baby in D.C. it's like this foreign concept that someone brings a baby to Congress or to the White House or even on the train, and everyone loves it. Their face lights up, they get so excited. Everyone wants to come over and say what a beautiful baby and get to know us. And I think there's this lack of baby fever that's been perpetrated in society to the point that because we're not constantly around this stuff, it's not considered normal anymore. Even when it is. It certainly has been throughout all of human history. And that's why young women are so averse to the idea of starting a family, because no one around them in their immediate circles are. I do think that's changing substantially. My husband works at the White House and every time I visit I am completely shocked that everywhere, all over the White House complex are nursing mom rooms that never existed before. When I lived there in 2018 and when I worked at the White House myself. I'm hearing a lot of that change is in the works, policy wise in Congress and certainly is going to happen in our airports as well, as we found out a few a few months ago. But what can we do in our country to help facilitate the normalcy of, of parenting, of motherhood, and certainly of breastfeeding our kids?
- [39:17]
B
And I think that that's where people like you are doing those jobs because you're having the conversation. So my job, when I'm one on one with a client, I'm like the caboose of the train. I'm the last thing that they thought of, the last person they thought they needed. You know, and there are so many things that have already happened by the time I see them and we do, we're doing a lot of damage control. Whereas something like this, if somebody's listening to this when they're pregnant with their first baby, they're so far ahead of the game and it's like the engine, you know, that that's driving the train. They see everything differently, they see the struggles differently, they understand that they need to prepare for it. They understand that it's normal. It's just a totally different way of coming at the information. And so while there are plenty of cons of social media and information overload out there. I think that these kind of conversations are helpful because they are just bringing, they're just starting the conversation and it doesn't even matter if somebody loves what we said or not, but if they listened and then they had a conversation with their friend about it, then, you know, the job is done. We thought about breastfeeding before that baby was born.
- [40:23]
A
Oh, that's so beautifully said. The one of the craziest things I've ever learned about breastfeeding is the hours that it takes to make it happen. For one year of your baby's life, they have tallied up, generally speaking, on average, how many hours you actually spend breastfeeding your baby baby. And it is far above and beyond a 40 hour work week. Which is crazy because when you think about that and certainly how our country has approached family leave and maternity leave in so many different controversial ways, that alone seems to me that we are so far behind in this conversation on what it takes to help a new mom thrive and figure out this new role that she's been called to by God, her ultimate vocation that will always be more important than clocking into a 9 to 5 job job. Why do you think we haven't yet realized that or communicated it to young people? Men especially are shocked when I, when I tell them that because they're thinking what I mean, my wife is just a stay at home mom or she's just at home all day hanging out with the baby. But just the act of feeding your baby is more demanding than a full time job.
- [41:19]
B
Yeah, yeah. I remember realizing that with my first. Because I was a NICU nurse, I worked 12 hour shifts. I took care of babies for a living. I thought this could be so easy. And then I had my own baby. And you can never clock out. Nobody comes in after 12 hours to change shifts with you and. And you're more emotionally invested.
- [41:35]
A
Totally.
- [41:36]
B
So it's very different. And I do remember tallying up the hours and thinking this is eight hours a day over 24 hours. Right. Which is more exhausting. But the thing is, is that feeding a baby is a full time job. Feeding bottles. If a baby's not breastfeeding, well, chances are they're not really going to bottle feed very fast either. Because oral motor wise, something's going on. Feeding bottles and washing bottles and making formula, it takes a lot of time too. Like feeding a baby takes a lot of work. And I do think that that's not necessarily talked about enough. And because people are at home and they're doing it behind the scenes or their babies at daycare. And we're not really seeing the reality of that. We want to compartmentalize it or outsource it like anything else, and we just, we can't and it's hard.
- [42:25]
A
What do you think we can do from a policy perspective to help people figure that out and navigate that new process?
- [42:31]
B
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't, I don't know. I don't know. There's a lot of people out there talking about maternity leave and, and I do think that those are conversations that need to happen. And paternity leave and family leave. I've seen a lot of improvement in paternity leave, especially in the last few years, but I don't know if policy is everything because at the end of the day, the UK has a 12 month maternity leave and their breastfeeding rates at a year are 0.5%.
- [43:01]
A
That's it?
- [43:01]
B
Yeah.
- [43:02]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [43:03]
B
So all these people saying maternity leave is going to solve the problem. I'm like, no, no, it's not.
- [43:08]
A
Why is that drop off so significant by a year?
- [43:11]
B
That's what I tried asking my cousin and I think it's so culturally not the norm there. And so that's why we need to have conversations. We need to be breastfeeding in public. We need to normalize it. Because, yeah, honestly, the US is doing pretty well for an industrialized nation, especially considering people are going back to work at 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks. I think that, I think in my 10 years of practice that your intrinsic motivation matters more, because I've seen moms breastfeeding through the most insane situations. I mean, even you, you're traveling, you're working.
- [43:51]
A
It is insane. We were at the March for Life two weeks ago. This is a great story and I love the March for Life. They do amazing work. I go every single year. I'm very, very involved in the pro life movement. And we were there at the big tent set up on the National Mall, and lo and behold, there was no like tent or any place to breastfeed your kid. And Isla started freaking out. She was having an absolute meltdown. And I'm like, cool, so I gotta go feed my baby right now. I don't know where I'm gonna go. My producer was cracking up at me because I walked halfway down the mall, I sat on a bench, I put my coat over me and I fed my baby. Which is so normal, right? For me, I do that everywhere, all the time. But everyone Came and profusely apologized. I'm so sorry we didn't have a breastfeeding mom's face. And I'm like, no, no, it's fine. Like, truly, I do this out and about in D.C. all the time, and that's just normal for me now.
- [44:34]
B
Yeah. And as a mom, you do have the legal right to breastfeed anywhere that you have a legal right to be in the U.S. and so, you know, people making a big deal out of, you can't breastfeed in this restaurant or you can't, you know, and. And it's like, well, you can.
- [44:46]
A
Let's unpack that intrinsic motivation piece, because that is really where I think the major cultural shift needs to happen in this conversation. There are 8 million pieces of scientific evidence out there that will tell you breastfeeding is the ideal choice for your baby. Even though that's incredibly controversial to say, it is just objectively true. There are a million reasons out there that it's good for you as mom. It decreases your rates of breast cancer. It helps you bond with your baby. You get your baby's antibodies fed back into you, so your immune system is usually so much stronger. I could spend eight hours talking about that at a PhD level, but I think there's just a lack of desire for young women today to experience this beautiful God given nurturing of our children, to participate in creation, as you so beautifully said. And that's the piece of the puzzle that seems to be missing to me because very few people are willing to talk about this in public.
- [45:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And it is almost something that's shaming to say, like, hey, I really want to breastfeed at all costs. Like, the cool thing to say is, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna give it my best, you know? And I mean, it's kind of like with natural birth, too. Again, there's not a moral imperative to birth without an epidural. But there are some gifts that come with that, both physiologically and emotionally. And same with breastfeeding. Like, it's not a moral imperative, but there are so many gifts that come with it. And back to what you were saying about, oh, I gave up after two or three days. When people say that, I like to tell moms that the first a little rule of sixes. So the first six hours are really important to have one or two feedings right after birth. You're going to establish the bond, you're going to establish the long term milk supply. Then the first six days are rocky because your milk hasn't come in yet and you're just feeding that. Not just, but you're feeding them colostrum and it's small amounts and it's frequent feedings and that's very overwhelming if you don't know that. But then if you know, hey, your milk is going to come in between three and five days postpartum. Day six, your baby is going to space out their feedings again because suddenly their stomach's getting full. So it's like the first six hours, the first six days and then the first six months. You probably experience this once you make it to six months and you can introduce solids. It's almost like the pressure's off a little bit.
- [46:55]
A
Yeah, I totally feel that way. I remember early on in my journey, doing the life that I do every day and having the lifestyle I had, it was very difficult to plan events and outings and interviews and stuff around. Okay, I know I'm going to have to kill like two hours in or I'm going to be in a lot of pain and I'm going to be very uncomfortable. Now I was at the State of the Union this week and a fellow friend of mine who's a member of Congress and is currently breastfeeding her daughter looked at me and said, wait, are you still breastfeeding? How many months are you into this? How are you not pumping all night? And I said, well, I think I'm just going to be okay, actually. Like I can make it through a couple, couple extra hours. And that was the case for me last night. So the pressure does feel so lifted by the time you actually start feeding and people don't.
- [47:32]
B
And then, you know, people. I remember even at two weeks postpartum, sitting there thinking, how on earth am I going to make it to a year? But it just changes so much. And even to two years and beyond, it's like you're not feeding your baby every hour when they're two. It's just a totally different experience. And so I think if you haven't had somebody explain that to you too, you're on day three and you're like, I can't do this forever. And it just changes so much, much.
- [48:01]
A
In our last few minutes of the show, I am curious to get into some of the scientific differences and benefits of breastfeeding, both for baby and for mom. So if you could give someone like a two minute pitch on why breast milk is so important for your baby and then we'll switch over to mom, what would you say?
- [48:16]
B
Yeah, so for the babies, it's Interesting. Breast milk, of course, provides nutrition, but almost every component of breast milk has an extra nutritional role, which means it does something besides just provide protein or just provide carbohydrates. So one of the coolest ones is the a protein called lactoferrin. So it's a protein molecule that binds to iron, and it does, it does so many things. First of all, iron pathogens in the gut like to feed on iron. So lactoferrin binds to it and keeps pathogens from being able to feed off of it. And lactoferrin regulates, like, your T and B cell lymphocytes, it regulates your macrophages, and it provides a highly bioavailable source of iron to your baby. And so, so it's like one little molecule has dozens of roles. Same with HMOs. Human milk oligosaccharides, they are technically a carbohydrate source in breast milk, but they feed bifidobacteria. They act like a prebiotic, and bifidobacteria then releases like butyrate and acetate, and it keeps your gut ph low, which again, keeps pathogens from surviving. And HMOs can bind to OIC acid and they, they create something called hamlet cells, which are like anti tumor cells. I mean, grass milk is like very living and active. It's much more like blood or bone marrow than it is like formula. Yeah.
- [49:46]
A
Before we wrap up today's episode, it's Friday. It's a new week next week. And starting next week, Hallow is beginning a brand new prayer challenge that I am so excited about. Starting on April 13, you can join Mark Wahlberg on Hallowed and Stay prayed up, Baby. You've probably seen Mark's weekly hashtag stay prayed up posts that constant reminder for millions of us to keep showing up in faith every Sunday. But now we can go even deeper with him into our faith journey every single day. Prayer isn't just something we should say before dinner or when life gets really tough and overwhelming. It's really about surrendering all of our control to God to lead our lives. And when we do that, everything changes. In this new Hallow challenge, Mark is helping us all build a better rhythm of daily prayer that actually sticks even in the busy chaos of life. We're going to learn how to read scripture, how to hear God's voice in his living word, and how to make prayer a part of the very fabric of who you are. Because staying prayed up is not about perfection. It's just about showing up every day with consistency and humility. And heart. Because that's exactly where God meets us the best. I love Hallow. I am Hallow's biggest Stan. I have been for a very long time. And it's not just because we're all Notre Dame people, but go Irish as a little extra aside, really, this has totally transformed my family. Families centering our lives around prayer to make sure that we start and end our day with just a few minutes rooted in our relationship with God. I even host a prayer series and challenge on the Hallow app called the Young Adults Devotional. You should go check it out. It is very fun. But they have literally thousands of prayers, meditations, music, podcast episodes, reflections, anything you can possibly imagine that will help you break the cycle of just binge watching or doom scrolling meaningless things and start using technology for the best reason possible to reconnect with Jesus Christ. You guys can head to check it all out@halloween.com, isabelle to download the Hallow app and join for three months free. Again, that's hallow.com Isabelle for 90 days free. Stay prayed up. That's incredible. So those are some benefits. Not all obviously, maybe, but how about for mom?
- [51:43]
B
Yeah, yeah. Moms have a reduced risk of and this is for most of the risk factors, it's cumulative over your lifetime amount of breastfeeding. So reduced risk of cardiovascular disease, reduced risk of breast and ovarian cancer, reduced risk of osteoporosis, so reduced risk of diabetes. So it really is again, because it's the completion of that hormonal cascade and because full term breastfeeding or breastfeeding in a toddlerhood is such a gradual weaning process, it really is the kindest way to transition from that hormonal drop off at birth because then you have this oxytocin taking over that's making you feel good and it's this gradual decline in oxytocin over the duration of breastfeeding instead of just dropping that off a cliff too.
- [52:34]
A
We have a lot of young moms who watch the show and a lot of young women who want to be moms. And that's their next chapter of life, which is so exciting. Not everyone has this massive platform, but I often am asked about various policy issues and things going on culturally, how people, they themselves can tangibly make a difference instead of just waiting for your favorite influencer or politician or talking head on TV to say something meaningful. I actually think when real people have these conversations with their sisters and their friends and the people that they go to school, it actually has A much bigger impact because that's someone you actually truly have a connection with versus someone you're seeing through a screen. If you could end us with our interview today with some pieces of advice for these young women on how we can change the conversation surrounding breastfeeding nationwide at that individual level with our loved ones every day. What should they be doing?
- [53:19]
B
Yeah, that's a good question again, because it's so sensitive. But the thing is, 80 some percent of moms initiate breastfeeding, so I think it's fair to ask a mom, hey, are you planning to breastfeed or bottle feed? And whatever they answer, you know, you can support that. But most of them are going to say, I'm going to try breastfeeding. And you can say, hey, if you want my lactation consultant's number, here it is. Put it in your phone. Oh, that's what I was going to say. Dads can have lactation consultants numbers in their phone and postpartum counselors and the midwife or ob, because they can be doing some of that. Reaching out too, if the mom's overwhelmed. But, you know, if it's, if it's a sister or a good friend, like, pay for them to take a breastfeeding class. Pay for a postpartum meal delivery, for sure. Set up a meal train. Food is my love language. And I'm like, do you have a meal train? Because breastfeeding is very calorically expensive and you're very hungry and you don't really want to stand at the stove or be rummaging around the kitchen when you're bleeding. And I remember in the early days, my husband, like, feeding me while I'm feeding the baby. I don't know if you had that experience. Oh, yeah, you're just so hungry. Yeah. And prep them for those things. And I think that it is fair. I think it's fair to say it's hard, but it's so worth it. I know that for a long time I wouldn't. I was afraid to tell my friends how hard it was. And I think I did them a disservice because then they'd be like, why did nobody tell me? And it's like, oh, well, you were excited and I wanted you to stay that way. But it's like you can give them the whole, the whole story. Like, it's so hard, but it's so worth it. And I think that's the conversation that needs to be had. Not just all the cons, because there are plenty of cons. Right. It's Hard. It is hard to have a baby, but the pros outweigh them. Yeah. And so I think sharing the full story is important.
- [55:07]
A
Let's finish with that then. For moms who are currently in the thick of it, they're a few days postpartum or they're struggling with this a couple of weeks in, and they're thinking, oh, my gosh, I'm really ready to outsource this. Why is the hard part sometimes the most beautiful?
- [55:20]
B
Yeah. You know, this was shared with me when I was a new mom 10 or 11 years ago. The idea of, like, this is my body broken for you, and our breast milk is made from our blood. And if you don't have to be a Christian to have benefits from breastfeeding, but if you are a Christian, I think that there's a really deep level of sanctification that can come with it. And, yeah, hard doesn't have to be bad. And it gets easier. I think that's important, too. My kids are 11, 8, and 4 now, and, like, they all sleep through the night, you know, I knew that it would happen eventually, but it doesn't always feel like it. In the thick of it.
- [56:03]
A
Yeah. I'm hoping for that day myself every single day these days. But truly so grateful for voices like yours and just knowing that there are so many resources out there for young women who feel confused or embarrassed and they don't know how to start talking about this with their loved ones. Where can people follow you to have those conversations for you and any places that they should start looking if they're really willing and ready to have this conversation. Conversation.
- [56:25]
B
Yeah. Well, I am on Instagram at my private practice name is Happy Mama Healthy Baby. So it's at Happy Mama Healthy Baby. My podcast is called Milk and Motherhood. I've been a guest on some other podcasts too, which I love, just talking about these things to get the conversation out there. So you can search my name on your favorite podcast app too, to come up with some of those. And yeah, amazing.
- [56:50]
A
Therese, thank you so much for making the trip here. And I'm so, so grateful for you, truly.
- [56:54]
B
Thanks, you too.
- [56:55]
A
Huge thank you again to Therese for joining us here on the show. Make sure you guys are following her social media accounts so that you can better understand this conversation from a holistic perspective. And don't forget, you can always watch the show completely ad free by joining us as a daily Wire plus subscriber, but it's also free. You don't have to pay to subscribe wherever you are. Watching right now, whether that's on YouTube or rumble or listening on your favorite podcast, RSS feed. So if you haven't already, make sure you do that. We will see you guys next week on the Isabel Brown Show. At Nature's Bounty, the belief is simple. You already have a brilliant body. Supplements just help support your journey. For over 50 years, nature's bounty has offered vitamins and supplements to help you eat, sleep, thrive, repeat. From magnesium glycinate for heart and muscle support to hair growth capsules for fuller, thicker hair and probiotics. With 20 billion live cultures for digestion, Nature's Bounty. It's in your nature to thrive. Learn more@naturesbounty.com these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.