Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication

Summary

The Jefferson Fisher Podcast: Chris Voss - FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication

Release Date: March 11, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, host Jefferson Fisher engages in an insightful conversation with renowned former FBI negotiator and author, Chris Voss. Drawing from Voss's expertise and his bestselling book, Never Split the Difference, the discussion delves deep into advanced communication and negotiation strategies that empower listeners to transform their conversations both professionally and personally.

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1. Managing Internal Voices and Overcoming Fear

Jefferson opens the dialogue by highlighting a profound concept from Voss's work: the impact of the internal voices that often sabotage our conversations. Voss elaborates on the role of the amygdala—the brain's fear center—and how it frequently overrides our intuition, leading to anxiety and poor communication.

Chris Voss [02:50]: "It's sorting out which voice in your head you're going to listen to... your amygdala just spoiling for that opportunity to get to, to take over the controls."

Voss emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between these fear-driven impulses and genuine gut feelings to foster clearer and more confident interactions.

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2. The Power of "No": Flipping Questions for Better Outcomes

A central theme of the conversation revolves around the transformative power of eliciting a "No" response in negotiations. Contrary to conventional wisdom that seeks "Yes" answers, Voss argues that "No" provides a sense of security, making individuals feel protected and more open to dialogue.

Chris Voss [04:54]: "The person who says no feels safe and protected... it's the beginning of the conversation."

He illustrates this with an anecdote where rephrasing a sales pitch from seeking a "Yes" to inviting a "No" resulted in a breakthrough, demonstrating that people are more willing to engage when they feel their autonomy is respected.

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3. Flipping Questions: Techniques to Elicit "No" Responses

Building on the previous point, Voss shares practical methods to reframe questions to encourage negative responses, thereby facilitating more honest and open conversations.

Chris Voss [07:37]: "People feel safe when they say no and they'll open up and... by using that to your advantage, you're going to get more of what you want."

Examples include transforming "Have you got a few minutes to talk?" into "Is now a bad time to talk?" This subtle shift not only reduces defensive reactions but also paves the way for genuine engagement.

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4. Accusation Audit: Preempting Negatives to Facilitate Trust

Voss introduces the concept of an Accusation Audit, a strategy where one anticipates and verbalizes the negative perceptions the other party might hold. This proactive approach neutralizes potential objections and builds rapport.

Chris Voss [18:03]: "An inventory of the negative thoughts the other side might be harboring against you."

By openly addressing possible concerns or criticisms, negotiators can diffuse tension and foster a more collaborative environment, whether in professional settings or personal relationships.

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5. Labeling: Verbalizing Observations to Enhance Understanding

Another pivotal technique discussed is Labeling, where one articulates their observations of the other party's emotions or behaviors. This method encourages transparency and encourages the other person to share more openly.

Chris Voss [24:40]: "It sounds like there's a reason for saying that."

Labeling involves phrases like "It seems like..." or "It sounds like..." which validate the other person's feelings without being accusatory, thereby deepening mutual understanding and trust.

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6. Handling Passive-Aggressive Individuals

Addressing the challenge of passive-aggressive behavior, Voss advises a dual approach: assessing the necessity of engaging with such individuals and employing labeling to address underlying issues when interaction is unavoidable.

Chris Voss [32:18]: "It's a verbal observation... it's a verbally saying out loud what you're sensing and feeling."

By recognizing and verbalizing the passive aggression, negotiators can deescalate tension and encourage more constructive dialogue.

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7. The Importance of Voice and Tone in Communication

Voss underscores the significance of voice modulation, advocating for slower speech and lower volume to create a calming and trustworthy presence in conversations.

Chris Voss [34:12]: "People connect you a lot easier, and the connection tends to stick."

Such vocal strategies make interactions more personable and less confrontational, fostering a comfortable atmosphere for effective communication.

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8. The Pitfalls of Being Argumentative

Concluding the strategic discourse, Voss warns against the perils of entering conversations with a combative mindset. Insisting on being right not only alienates others but also diminishes the quality and quantity of meaningful interactions.

Chris Voss [37:21]: "If you got something to prove, you just slowly driving people away from you..."

He likens this behavior to a slot machine—occasional small wins may lure individuals in, but the overarching outcome is a depletion of valuable relationships and trust.

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9. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Jefferson summarizes the key strategies discussed:

1. Flipping Questions to Get "No": Start with negative phrasing to make others comfortable and open up.
2. Accusation Audit: Proactively address potential negatives to build trust.
3. Labeling: Verbally acknowledge the other's emotions or behaviors to enhance understanding.

These techniques, grounded in psychological principles, offer listeners actionable tools to revolutionize their communication and negotiation prowess.

Jefferson Fisher [39:08]: "So what I learned today... flipping questions to get a 'No', accusation audit, labeling."

Chris Voss reiterates the effectiveness of these methods, highlighting their ability to create authentic connections and facilitate successful negotiations without confrontation.

Chris Voss [40:22]: "Pleasure is my Jefferson."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as an invaluable resource for anyone seeking to elevate their communication skills. By integrating Chris Voss's FBI-backed tactics, listeners are equipped to navigate complex conversations with confidence, empathy, and strategic finesse.

Transcript

[Jefferson Fisher]

Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tools to improve your communication, I'm going to ask you to follow this podcast. If you would leave a review, give it a like, give it a star. It all matters and it matters certainly to me because I look at it. Also, if you have any feedback or topic suggestions, just throw them in the comments and I'll be happy to look at them. My book, the Next Conversation is officially out. You can find the links down there in the show notes and, and on top of that, if you're looking for ways to continue to further and practice your communication skills, you can go to the Jefferson Fisher School of Communication and it has been a complete ball of fun and they have live classes. I have an AI that teaches you things to say and you can practice and all the videos and a library of resources at your fingertips. You can find those down in the show notes. Have you ever been in a conversation that really felt like a negotiation or almost you felt out of your own depth? Well, I've brought you somebody that is the master of all negotiations. Chris Voss. You know him, you love him. Former FBI negotiator, author of Never Split the Difference, an international bestseller, and CEO of the Black Swan Network. A group sole focus is to improve your negotiation skills no matter where you're at in life. Chris, my friend, good to see you again.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. Jeff, it's an absolute pleasure. I always enjoy talking with you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it's. It's so cool to be able to talk. You're such a hero of mine. I know I've told you this. We've been able to have a friendship outside of this right here. And it's just been. You're a huge role model to me, so I want to make sure I have it on the record. I've always loved your stuff and tactical empathy is right in line with my own mission in the world. So thanks for putting that, this out here for us.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, man, it's my pleasure. I think our, our, our, our thoughts overlap, you know, our approach to life, collaborative. I love your book and so, yeah, it's a pleasure talking with you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks, man. I have a quote that I pulled from your book. Now, anybody listening right now, if you've, if you don't have Never Split the Difference, you're missing out on something that I'm going to tell you is going to immediately make you a better communicator, especially when it comes to positions of negotiation. And that doesn't mean just in the workplace, also means at home too. And is this right here for those people who negotiate, who view negotiation as a battle of arguments, it's the voices in their own head that are overwhelming them. I love it because I think there's so much truth to that that people get so caught up in that anxiety because it's not what you're saying, it's the voices in their own head of what they're telling themselves. I want you to expand on that small, because I love this quote.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, well, you know, it's sorting out which voice in your head you're going to listen to also. And most of the time the voices in your head are your amygdala, your fear centers there. And they're kicking into gear on you and they just, they're not your friend. They're just not. You know. A friend of mine, Sean Stevenson, was a great, great guy, died tragically 9,5ish years ago. And it just started to get to know Sean and collaborate with him. And I knew right away that we're on the same sheet of music because he just flat out said to us like our biggest enemies are amygdala, a fear center in our brain. It just was necessary to keep us alive when we were actually being chased by saber toothed tigers and being, you know, chased down outside the cave, away from the campfire of all sorts of creatures that want to eat us on a regular basis, but just not our friend these days. And the voice in your head can just make you do stupid things that make you paranoid and overreact and it, and what voice should you listen to? Like the, the intuition, if you can sort your fear centers from your intuition. And I even sometimes say to myself, like, what is my gut telling me? Because I get, I get problems overcovering my amygdala too. You know, if you're tired, it's been a long day, you didn't get a good night's sleep the night before. Like your amygdala just, just spoiling for that opportunity to get to, to take over the controls. And if you can listen to your gut instead, your gut's really react, really accurate. It's a real help. It's just sorting the two out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, there's something about the voice inside your own head. You know, it's, it's how our brain does that I really don't know. It doesn't matter. It's going to happen anyway of just what, what's the voice that you're listening to and what's really your gut? You have this line about getting a no isn't the end of a conversation, it's the beginning. What is the importance of getting to know in an argument or a conversation?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. You know, we didn't even realize how significant that was when we first wrote the book. You know, the book's a collaboration between me and my son Brandon. Brandon Voss Uncredited co author Tal Roz and Tall's doing his best there and did a phenomenal job capturing our thoughts and putting in our voice. But like, when somebody says no, something happens to them. The the person who utters the word no versus the person who hears it. The person who says no feels safe and protected. And so that's how that becomes the beginning of the conversation. Because having feel like they protected themselves and they feel safe, then they're more open to dialogue, they're more open to listening. You're not a threat or the issue isn't a threat. There's this Padlovian response to uttering the word no that opens people up. And that's why in so many cases, if you're willing to give it the space, no will start the conversation.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Do you find that it's just because, I mean, as. As we were little kids, for anybody listening, I know if you have your own kids or you remember it being a kid, we just have a gut reaction and go, no. Even if, you know, like, to my son, this is your favorite meal. What are you talking about? And he's just, no. Or my. My daughter just decides she no longer loves strawberries. I'm like, you couldn't eat enough strawberries yesterday. It is this sense inside of us where maybe it's just our own independence. Where do you think that comes from, this desire for us to immediately just go, no, I'm going to go for what's safe. And that's not filling me right now. I need to just say no.

[Chris Voss]

It's interesting question. I mean, the parental dilemma is your kids don't do what you tell them to do. They do what they see you do. And your kids saw you say no. You know, your kids see you say no to them all the time, and that's how you assert your autonomy and control of the situation. So they want to be like you. They're seeing you say no, and they're like, oh, okay. Saying no is a way to assert my autonomy to protect myself, to gain control of my environment. It makes me feel good to say it. And yeah, that's what, that's what's happening.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. That's really what's happening. Just it feels good to say it. I think that explains it perfectly. You have a way of which is, is brilliant of asking questions to get to a no. For those listening to us right now, what is the importance of flipping a question to get to a no rather than finding a way for them to say yes to it?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, this. And that is the craziest thing. So it's kind of like a two step explanation, maybe three step. Everybody's been bamboozled with yes. I. The yes. Momentum, momentum selling. Ask them three questions, three different questions. The answer to each question is a micro agreement or a tie down and would you like to make more money? Would you like to live in a bigger house? You know, they seemingly and there may be at a point in time where this worked and I think everybody has been hustled by this at some point in time in their life before you realize that you were being led down a path. And you got led down the path so many times that your gut instinct, oh, last time somebody tried to get me to say yes, you know, they, they ended up trapping me. And so then you have a Pavlovian response. You know, Pavlovs dog, the bell rings, they feed. Then every time the bell rings, the dog salivates. Well, every time somebody tries to get you to say yes, they, they led you down a path. There was a trap, there was a bear trap there that. All right, so the minute somebody's trying to get me, they say yes, there's a trap. So there's a. Is a psychological Pavlovian response. So as stupid as that, and true as it sounds, it seems stupid that the opposite would be true. That people feel safe when they say no and they'll open up and. But in point of fact they do. We were, we were teaching this. We're doing a course for a company that does business with hospitals probably about five years ago. And this woman in the head of their sales is trying to get the head nurse this particular hospital to accept a system. It had been a yes oriented approach. And she says, look, this woman is in no mode. She says no to everything I say. So I'm like, all right, flip your questions. She's like, no, that's, that, that's not going to work. That's stupid. I mean if I just reword it and she says no, it's going to change things. And so she got up out of the room, left the training, went to the hallway, sent a head nurse a text. Are you against implementing this program? The Head nurse immediately texts her back, says, no, just let me know what we have to do to move forward. And she comes walking back in a room with her phone in her hand. She can't believe what's on. You guys are not going to believe what just happened. And so people have conditioned themselves that when they say no, they're safe and they're willing to entertain stuff that they've been blocking previously just because saying yes scared him.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think that's just so cool. I mean, just how funny to use how our minds naturally work. I mean, for, for a wonderful, positive way. It's just fun defining how, you know, our own idiosyncrasies and our defaults of saying no. If you're anything like me, when you get home, you want to take off your work clothes and just get comfortable. One of my favorite sponsors of this podcast is called Cozy Earth. And the reason why I went with cozy is because I already use their stuff. Their sheets are on my bed right now. My wife loves their pajamas. I, when I get home, I take off my suit and I put on a hoodie and, and some sweatpants. You can go to cozyearth.com jefferson and for this weekend only, March 14th through the 16th, you'll get up to 45% off on cozy earth. You can go to cozyearth.Com jefferson and use the code jefferson for 45 off to celebrate world Sleep Week. Nothing better than that. Let's, for people listening right now, what are some great lean ins, or let's say lead ins for how they might begin a question to flip it to no. So how would you teach somebody to begin a question to get a no answer? I've heard you say, like, are you against?

[Chris Voss]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Would it offend you? Would you hate or is there a certain way? What's the magic behind it?

[Chris Voss]

You know, how can you give yourself a lot of practice to start with? First of all, test, see if it works. And the most common thing is calling somebody on the phone or even stopping them and saying, have you got a few minutes to talk? Flip that to is now a bad time to talk? That will get your practice. Now, I'll tell you in advance what the reaction is going to be when you say, it's now a bad time to talk. They're going to hesitate for a moment and then they're like, no, no, what do you got? Or they'll say, as a matter of fact, it is a bad time. And then they'll tell you when they can't talk and what you want is you want a conversation where they don't feel guarded. And I've never had anybody not give me a better time, you know, and plus, in many cases, they may be able to talk to you, but they're distracted. A lot of people make the mistake of multitasking. When we were talking about, you know, the Bourbon that my company's launching, the, you know, I got my bourbon shirt on the difference. Nice. You know, anything I get any. I'm a human billboard. I'm going to advertise my stuff when I get the opportunity.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I can learn some things.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. But the guy that did the bourbon previously, he'd done a documentary film on my company, Tactical Empathy. If you're interested, it's on Amazon.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes, please.

[Chris Voss]

But. So he screened it for me first time in Vegas. The. And the plan was, a month and a half later, I was going to show it at a function in Beverly Hills. And the night I saw it, you know, I loved it. And I woke up the next morning and I realized there was a fundamental flaw with the documentary. I was. I was not going to allow it to go out unless this thing was fixed. So it's a Sunday afternoon, and I. I got to talk to him. We got to fix this now. I sent him a two line text. Is now a bad time to talk? You're not going to want to hear what I have to say. So in point of fact, he was on a zoom call, and he texted me back immediately and said, I'm in the middle of a zoom call and I can talk to you at three. I'll call you three. Now. If I'd have called him, he would have answered the phone, because we have that kind of a relationship. We're good friends. He's going to pick up the phone, which means he would have taken my call while he was on a zoom call, which means he would have done a bad job in both. I don't need that. I need his undivided attention because we got a problem and the clock is ticking on us really hard. And so I need him to let me know when he can speak to me. Undivided attention. Is now a bad time to talk or what is a bad time? I don't want to talk to him when it's a bad time. I want him to give me an alternative time, and I need 100 focus. He's. He's dialed in. He's prepping for bad news now. I don't know what was going through his mind. When you. When you prep somebody for bad news, the Worst that happens is they imagine something equal to what you have to say. Nine times out of ten, they imagine worst. Yes. I don't know what was on his mind, but again, we're. The clock is ticking, and we don't have time to argue about this. He calls me on the phone. I say, look, this is. This is a problem. They're gone. He's ahead of coaching. We left him out of the film. We have to put him in the film. He's been too critical to everything we've done. Now. We've been working on this film for a year. And Nick could rightly say, we've been working on this for a year. You know, what's the matter with you? This is going to cost me money. It's going to be a problem. But since I dialed him up with those two text messages, he says, okay, this is what we got to do. I need Derek's schedule. We got to get Derek on camera. That means I got to get a camera crew to him or we got to get him to a camera crew. Now, we're showing this film in a month, and it's going to take. Once we get the film, it's going to take me three weeks to edit it in. So we have to do this now. And I'm like, done and done and done. But it all started with me not letting him have a multitasking conversation, which was the point of. Is now a bad time to talk? I need focus. And, yes, that's what's going to happen when you throw it out there to people.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, just like the magic that can happen, that all you have to do is just to turn a phrase. What I see. For those that are listening to me and Chris right now, I think a good takeaway for how to get people to answer no is to begin with a negative in the first part of your sentence. So instead of asking someone, is it a good time to talk? Is now a bad time to talk? So you find ways to flip the positive words and the negative words. Would it be terrible of me to ask you this? Would you be offended by is now a bad time? Use words that are negative in the first part of your sentence, and that's going to flip for them to have to answer also in the negative rather than try to. To say something positive in the beginning. Would you agree with that?

[Chris Voss]

That's perfectly described.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Well, I think that's a. And I'm going to do that my own life. Also, I want to make sure we get this. This is tactical empathy on Netflix.

[Chris Voss]

Yes. Yeah, it's north on Amazon.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Amazon, sorry, Amazon. I'm going to put that in my, I want to put that in my cart. I want to, I want to bookmark that. Yeah. Recorded my memory. I think that is one of the just magical ways by just a simple turn of phrase will create so much power in the conversation that the other person really just has no clue about it. It's still the same thing. You're still wanting to get that same information, but you're using the fact that we naturally want to say no because no's very comfortable. Not that they're trying to turn you down, it's just no is more comfortable to say. And so by using that to your advantage, you're going to get more of what you want. There's something else that you teach that. It's called an accusation audit. Yeah, I, I love these. When I first read the book and saw that, I was like, this is brilliant. For anybody who has not heard what an accusation audit is in your world, can you just tell us?

[Chris Voss]

It's pretty principally we tried to make it self defining. So think of yourself as an accountant who's going to do an audit. Now do an audit slash assessment, slash inventory of the negative thoughts the other side might be harboring against you. Their accusations. And be liberal thinking lots. You know, once you start thinking about this, a lot of stuff will occur to you. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You say be liberal, like be creative.

[Chris Voss]

Be creative. Yeah. And, and then what you do is you lay it out up front. Now what scares most people about this is even if they are believe that labeling, identifying a negative diffuses it and it does, there's actually a brain science that backs it up, not denying it. You say, seem, say something like it's gonna, it's, it sounds like I'm gonna sound disrespectful instead of, I don't want to sound disrespectful, I don't want to sound disrespectful is the wrong way. That's a denial. I'm going to sound disrespectful is the correct way. It's a prediction, it's an observation. So if it's there, it deactivates it. Now what scares everybody is that you can plant the negative, you can plant the negative emotion. You can't plant emotions in people's heads. You can't plant negatives, you can't plant positive. You can only work with what's there. So the accusations audit is probably one of the single most effective, most used strategies that we Coach people on to break open negotiations, to break down barriers, to solve problems in an accelerated fashion, to really get to the heart of the matter really quickly because it just deactivates and disables the negatives and inoculates for many that may pop up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You don't know what just my nerd, weird communication brain, like, how much I love. I love this so much. I've been dreaming of this conversation with you. What is the one thing that somebody can do in their conversation that is going to apply the principles of an accusation audit? And let's put in maybe a home scenario and a work scenario.

[Chris Voss]

You know, I'm glad you asked that, because my staff is doing this to me all the time. And why do they do it to me all the time? Because it works at home. Like, they'll walk into my office and they'll go, is that. Is now a bad time to talk? No. You're going to hate me for this. I. I got. I, you know, my girlfriend. I got to take my girlfriend to the grocery store. Like, I don't know what it is. Like, they. They are. They're throwing. They're throwing this one word out, you know, and when you're doing the accusations audit, I mean, go for the strong word, you know, don't. Don't pull your punches. Which is why they say, you know, you're gonna hate me for this. Like, no, I'm not gonna. You know, my first reaction is like, you know, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna. Are you gonna. Are you gonna set my house on fire? Are you gonna dump your garbage in. In my. In inside my truck? Like, I imagine something horrible and. And they'll ask me something that is less than what I was worried about. And, you know, they're preempt. You're gonna hate me for this. Start that on your ass, on the people in your reg. In your life. Now, why. Why is everybody on my staff doing this to me instantly? Not because they're trying to show off. They got an inkling of this and they actually started using it at home. And they changed all their conversations at home. And so they're like, hey, this works. And if it works at home, it's going to work, you know, out on the street in a regular basis. So, yeah, start. Start trying to. You got an ask of it's going to make somebody uncomfortable. Yeah. Say, you know, I don't. Don't say, I don't want this to make you uncomfortable. Which is, again, the denial, right? Say, you know, you're going to Hate me for this. And then, and then see what happens. Do it playfully. See what happens on small stake stuff. You know, get some data.

[Jefferson Fisher]

What I find so fascinating about this is that it uses our contradictory nature. Like, if I, if I was going to tell you, like, you're probably really exhausted today, naturally you're going to be like, no, I'm not exhausted. Like, you naturally want to find another word? Well, no, I'm not exhausted. I mean, I'm tired, but I'm not. Like, we naturally kind of just have this contrarian sense to us, some more than others in our lives, and it just plays to that so. Well. Like, if I was going to tell you where, like you talked about the bad way to do this, the wrong way to do it is to say, I don't mean to offend you, but now you've only almost confirmed that you will. You've almost guaranteed you will now offend them.

[Chris Voss]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But if you come at it from, you're probably going to think this is offensive, but. And then tell them that now they're going to think like the contrarian in the head goes, no, that's not offensive. No, you can't offend me like that. Now they have to push against you. Do you find that it's this contradiction that we like to have of just natural disagreement with somebody, no matter what it is. It's like our gut instinct, and it's that disagreement that makes this work so well?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, yeah, I, I think you're definitely on the right track. I think it's probably two or three things and very similar to the contrarian correction as well. I mean, it's, it's a. Correcting not, you know, I don't feel that way. That's both, that's both contrarian and corre. Correcting.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

And people love to correct. I mean, you know, people love to correct.

[Jefferson Fisher]

We do, Yes.

[Chris Voss]

I think.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

You know, there's a famous Judge Judy thing. You know, this guy, this girl's accused of this guy stealing her purse. And, you know, she's sitting there and she outlines all the stuff that was in a purse. And, and then of course, she throws in there like $40 in cash. And the guy immediately says, there was no cash in that purse. And the judge starts to laugh and said, the only way you know that is if you stole it. I love that. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Judge Judy, what an icon. Something I want to make sure and, and bring up so that my listeners can hear this. The phrase sounds like there's a reason for saying that. Sounds like you have a reason for saying that. What is the power behind that phrase that somebody can use immediately in their next conversation and what will that do for them?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, that is one of the magic wand phrases. And we've, for whatever reason, just for the fun of, you know, we label the number, go to phrases, magic wand phrases, because it just changes so much instantly. It's like waving a magic wand. So you. What is behind what somebody said is always more important than what they said. It's always more important. You know, some people call it the question behind a question. The thought behind it, like, what makes them say that is so much more important. You need to know what their thought process is. And your guess at best is going to be accurate about 30% of the time, which is not a bad accuracy. You know, it's not better than half, but it's not, it's not a horrible percentage. But that means about two thirds of the time your guess is going to be wrong. So you need to pull out why they said that. And, you know, it sounds like you have a reason for saying that. It seems like you have a reason for saying that. Whatever sort of take you want on that, you want to approach them in a way. And that's different than a question, because if I say what makes you say that the word what causes you to stop and think, you're going to go into in depth thinking, which means you may not have the energy to answer, number one, because in depth thinking is tiring. Or number two, you're going to think about it before you answer me. And I really want an unvarnished answer. I want it coming right out of your mouth without sucking a lot of energy out of you. And I know that if I say it seems like I have a reason for saying that, you are more likely to give it to me straight right off the bat. It doesn't feel judgmental on your part. It feels very encouraging. It feels open and collaborative. It opens all these doors to sharing information that is not exhausting and actually develops rapport. So it's, it's, it's a great way to find out what made them say what they just said.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Listen, I care about you. If you're listening to this podcast, I care about you. And because I care about you, as somebody who also loves communication and conversations, I know that you can't just have all these conversations in your head. Yeah, I can give you advice, but sometimes you need more. You need to talk to somebody else who's trained in helping guide you through this. And that's where Therapy comes in. I go to therapy. It's incredibly helpful. And a sponsor of this podcast is better help what they do. It's an online platform where they can connect you with online therapists. All you have to do is fill out a quick questionnaire and they match you with a therapist. And if it doesn't work out with somebody else, they can easily switch you to somebody new. But the point is you're getting it out out and diving deeper for better answers because conversations come with questions. Therapy comes with answers. You can go to betterhelp.com Jefferson Fisher for a discount on your first month. That's betterhelp.com Jefferson Fisher It's I find that in my world, I cross examine people in a deposition and if I say, sounds like there's more to that, which is very similar, I mean, it's the same type of method here. They always have a reason for saying it. You know, they always have more behind it. And I, I think you're absolutely right. It's such a good way of getting more information out without making them defensive, like making them feel like they're. You're on the attack.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, it's a great, it's a great circumstance too, because if in that deposition, probably by definition you're a threat and so they're going to be reluctant and you want them, you want them to pull that information where they don't see you as a threat. And also if it's a deposition, it's probably going to go on for hours. It doesn't really help you to exhaust them because the more tired they get, the less information they're going to be able to supply.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. Here's a question I got. What is the Chris Voss way of handling passive aggressive people?

[Chris Voss]

It would really be, first of all, they may be the what we, what I refer to as a 7 percenter, which is person I don't want to deal with anyway. Yeah, I learned a long time ago, do I have to deal with this person? My former boss, Gary Nessner, used to say our approach to negotiation was best chance of success, which means by definition, it's not a guaranteed chance of success. So I'm going to gauge the other person. How passive aggressive are they? Do I have to deal with them? Do I want to be handcuffed to this person for the foreseeable future, for forever? A friend of mine, Joe Polish, refers to these people as halves. Hard, annoying, lame, and frustrated. And Joy says, just don't deal with halves. Cut them out of your life. And so if somebody's Passive aggressive. My first question to myself is, I want to be handcuffed to this person over a long term period of time. And if the answer is no, then I'm out. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. If you're passive aggressive now, for me personally, there's a really good chance that you're going to get fired. I'm going to continue the relationship. Yeah. Now what happens if I feel like I have to? What if I'm handcuffed to him? What if I've taken myself hostage? Then probably going to start labeling. And then if it sounds to me like you don't want to give me an answer because passive aggressive. What they do is they throw stuff back on you. What do you want me to do? Is one of their favorite questions. After you've just told them what you want them to do.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Chris Voss]

Because they know how exhausting that is, they'll be like, ah, you know, look, I need you to go down. I need you. This, this is a problem. This is a problem. We need to fix this. And they'll be like, well, what do you want me to do? Like, like they, like they're deaf because you just told them. But it's a great strategy for exhausting you and wearing you out, which is what a passive aggressive person is often going to do. So I might label them. I'm. It sounds to me like what I just said was confusing. Yeah. My first.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You say labeling. Define that for, for us real quick. How you apply that.

[Chris Voss]

The basic label is a verbal observation which starts with it seems like. And then you make your observation. It sounds like it looks like. Sometimes it even feels like. And if somebody's passive aggressive, they're dragging their feet. You can say it feels like you're dragging your feet here. It's just making an observation based on an emotion or dynamic that you see. It's a verbal observation. And if, if you see it, if even if you sense it, it's now fair game to observe it. Verbally slap a label on it, identify what you're seeing and say it. Say it out loud. And depending upon how you're wired or how it's presented, that's why the choices are basically like it looks like. Sounds like it seems like it feels like. It's a very collaborative thing to do. It's. You're open to correction. Somebody can say, well, you know, don't, don't, don't tell, don't tell me what I am. My answer is going to be like, I didn't say you were I said, that's the way it look or that's the way it sounds. So it's, it's a, it's not accusatory, believe it or not.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. This, it feels very related to the, the whole sense of, like, we said, correction. They'll, they'll want to correct you. So if you do something simple as labeling of, you know, I'm, I'm feeling like you feel nervous about this conversation or you feel uneasy about this. It's just you labeling that they're going to correct you and go, no, no, I'm not uneasy. I. I just. And they give you the truth versus you trying more to skate around it. So labeling is just a verbally saying out loud what you're sensing and feeling in that moment.

[Chris Voss]

Exactly. Yeah. Well said.

[Jefferson Fisher]

One part of what I feel makes Chris Foss. Chris Foss is what I guess the younger kids would call the vibes. Like you have this vibe that, you know, is your vibe. Where did you grow up, by the way?

[Chris Voss]

Small town in Iowa. I'm a small town, Iowa boy.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Got it. And it's. I don't know where your accent comes from. Is it. I don't know how Iowan sounds?

[Chris Voss]

It's convoluted. No.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, but it's this, this tone that you have that, like, if you had told me like, look, I just wanna, I want your couch, I'd be like, no, Chris, you can't have my couch. I know it's a great couch. I shouldn't have it. But I just, I really like this couch. And I feel like, gosh, you know what? You sound so good, Chris. Here, you can, you can take it. It's what I'm getting here too, is just the power of the voice and the volume and the tone, which you just have a signature style on. And I know that you talk about that as something that you were trained on. You know, that late night DJ voice. So what kind of lessons can somebody take from slowing down their words and lowering their volume regardless of their gender?

[Chris Voss]

People connect you a lot easier, and the connection tends to stick. If you're communicating with a high volume of words, with a lot of energy, with a lot of emotion, it has a really fast half life. It goes away really quickly. And you want to communicate in a way with people. They kind of resonate with, you know, it resonates with their bones. They don't feel pushed. The energy is not necessary to continue the relationship. Yeah, I learned it on a suicide hotline, you know, then continue to learn it as a hostage. Negotiator ran across the hypnotherapist one time that said, that's exactly how we get people to relax. And so then ideally, the perfect combination, if you can, if you can downward inflect, if you could slow down and you don't have to have a deep voice like women can downward inflict by simply dropping their chin downward and inflection and then the occasional smile, like, it just gives people a warm feeling. It's something they're drawn to, that they resonate with. And you put the two of those together, it. It tends to really. It really lasts. It sticks. People like it and they feel comfortable with it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I find that it's this, this sound. When you can hear it in somebody's voice, you just think to yourself, I want them on my side.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I don't know what they have, but listening to it, I. I want them on my side. What I try to picture often when somebody is communicating, I kind of apply a music style. Like if I had a CD album for this person's voice, what would I apply? You know, would it be something very Frank Sinatra? Would it be something super loud and crazy? Or would it be hip hop? Like, what is the vibe of this person? And it all takes different walks of life. Some people are not for other people, and it's. Some people are easier to listen to and some music is easier to listen to. So I think you're spot on with, you know, having the ability to slow down is going to make people more drawn to you. Is that. Would that be right?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. Drawn to you. Less rushed, less cornered. They feel voluntary, they feel collaborative. It just makes it easier. Yeah, they're very drawn to you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Wouldn't you have just been such a truly a legend and how. The way you've turned, in my view, arguments and negotiations on their head of just. That's not how we think about them, but it's the way you, the techniques you teach are really, I just find groundbreaking to the person right now who is thinking, I don't want anybody to disagree with me. I want everybody to agree with me. I want every conversation I have an argument that I'm in. I want to win it, and everybody needs to go along with my plan. What, what would you say to that person right now who feels like they always have something to prove in the conversation?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, you're driving people away from you. Yeah. You just, you're consistently. You're going to find your meaningful conversations are going to be fewer and fewer. They're going to be farther and farther Apart, you know, the ones that you win will obscure how much you lose. I, I think of it as a Las Vegas slot machine effect. Like, people get addicted to the slots. What are the numbers? How often do you win on a slot machine? I've read that the arithmetic, the algorithm is if they let you win one in every 84 polls, you're going to keep dumping money into the slot machine because the win is so celebratory. Like if you got something to prove and you got somebody over a barrel and you force them into submission, it's like the slot machine going off. The bells and the whistles are ringing, the lights are flashing, you're getting this huge hit of dopamine anticipation. It feels so good. And you don't realize that you lose 83 out of 84 times and they're slowly draining your bank account. So if you got something to prove, you just slowly driving people away from you and suddenly you can't remember the last time you had a breakthrough or nobody in your industry talks to you or in people you know, pay the annoyance tax, make you just.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So you go away.

[Chris Voss]

And you got all these small wins, you, but they don't accumulate, they don't add to much. You're not doing as well as the other people that somehow they get along with people. They're not as argumentative, but they got a bigger house than I do. They got, you know, they get a better car, they're making more money. How did that happen?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think exactly right. This idea of when you trying to come in and prove everything and push people away, like you said, you're only draining your own bank account. Bank account of life. And I, I think that's, I think that's why he's listening. All right, what I learned today in our conversation, and I wish this was seven hours, is that one, it's easier to get questions answered when you flip them to get a no rather than a yes. And one way to do that is you can begin with a negative in your question. That's going to help get a negative response to keep you down the road. Second of all, accusation audit, it's a way of simply saying how you assume that they might be feeling in the conversation. And the idea here is one way to actually correct you and tell you more of what they're feeling behind the scenes or three is labeling. And that is simply visually saying out loud it seems like it sounds like it feels like of what you're perceiving. That's also going to get them to open up in this conversation, Chris. Did we. Did we hit it? Did we cover it?

[Chris Voss]

Well said, brother. Very well said. I love talking with you, man.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's the best. It really is. From somebody who. This is just like my. I feel like I'm a minor league baseball player talking to Babe Ruth. Like, it's just. I think it's just so cool.

[Chris Voss]

That's kind of.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I get so excited talking to you and love, love what you do. Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's a true honor. Thanks.

[Chris Voss]

Pleasure is my Jefferson.