← The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Clinical Psychologist on Setting Clear Boundaries ft. Dr. Henry Cloud
00:56:21
Loading summary
Transcript232 lines
- [00:01]
A
When does somebody know that they should say, you know what this needs? This needs a boundary.
- [00:07]
B
You're wired with a system that. From your spinal cord all the way through your gut in your neurophysiology, the neurochemistry, all of that system, like a security alarm system. It's running 24 7, asking one question. Am I safe? That's what the human organism has got to know all the time. I mean you've been breathing for the last year.
- [00:35]
A
Didn't even know.
- [00:36]
B
Careless. You can trust, you know, you don't have to watch your back. Yeah, but if you smell the feeling that system would kick in and say hit pause. So you say, when's it time for a boundary? Your system is going to tell you this. Something doesn't feel good here. They're violating your property. Either your head, your heart, your mind or your soul is getting a little bit. Something doesn't feel right now. You may be crazy. We just because you're not paranoid. You know, sometimes we get scared when we shouldn't be. But a lot of times we it. All the times we need. Need to stop. Pause. You're very good at this. In. In helping people. You don't have to answer right now. Yeah. Boundaries are about differentiating yourself from the other yourself and other. And so people are trying to control your. Manipulate you. They're trying to get to the steering wheel of your car somehow roll up the window. Stay in your lane. Take a minute. If you're hearing something from your. It could be your feelings, it could be your gut. It could be what you think about what they said. We have a lot of different darnish. But that's when to do it. Well, first become self aware. Oh, that would help.
- [01:56]
A
Yeah, that would help.
- [01:57]
B
That would help.
- [01:58]
A
And I love that you use your property like I think that.
- [02:01]
B
Well, you're a lawyer.
- [02:02]
A
Yeah.
- [02:04]
B
What where's the boundary or the property right to determine when the tree falls? Who's responsible for that?
- [02:11]
A
Exactly.
- [02:12]
B
Yeah.
- [02:12]
A
You know, what's. What's the perimeter? What's your. What's your border? And not only for land, but also in terms of what they. They call chattel like your. Your actual. Those are. My phone is my. Your stuff, my clothes, my. My food, my. My family, my friends. Okay.
- [02:30]
B
That's a good. That's a perfect. You said you know, when do you. Well, your boundaries. Your property line does two things. It keeps the good stuff in and say. And it keeps the bad stuff out. So I have a fence.
- [02:44]
A
Yeah.
- [02:45]
B
So what's the channel? The good stuff. Your Feelings, your attitudes, your behaviors, your choices, your limits, your values, your desires, your thoughts and the things you love. So your boundaries are there to protect. And those can be your signals if something feels right. Or if I'm. Can somebody get me behave in a way or make a choice I don't want. Or. This really is not something I desire. Or. Or now they're screwing my thinking. Yeah. Which Gaslighting does. Among other things. Or guilt, manipulation. Yeah.
- [03:18]
A
Or shame. I mean, like, I think. Makes me think of. When you see your friend being nice to somebody else, you're like, hold up.
- [03:26]
B
That's.
- [03:27]
A
That's my friend. Like, you know, like, it's easy because it's not just within your body. It also expands to those whom you.
- [03:35]
B
Right.
- [03:35]
A
Whom you love. You go. They're now in my circle. And so when you. You have that, it goes. Okay, that's. That's the push. But I. I love that you used the word.
- [03:42]
B
Well, who do you want to look moving in your neighborhood Exactly.
- [03:45]
A
Of like, what's your. Your heart, mind, your gut, your center? I just feel something. And that's when it's. Your body goes. Something is off. And just the way that we breathe and our heartbeats. That system of. I need to Feel Safe operates 24, 24 7. Even when you're asleep.
- [04:01]
B
Whatever. You hear a noise.
- [04:02]
A
Exactly. And you, like, perk up and go, what. What was that? How did that. And what's crazy is I didn't think about this. Like, you know, when that's. That creaky. You know, that one stare that always creaks. Or that. That fan or that refrigerator noise. That doesn't. You. You've learned that. Safe. But after that, it's. You can go. No, that's. This is something. Something's. Something's off here.
- [04:28]
B
And I can. And I mean, that's so good because. Take two different people.
- [04:35]
A
Yeah.
- [04:36]
B
One of them, you know. You know, they're kind of quirky sometimes they say stuff that. But you trust them and you know they're good. Sure. Somebody else can say the same thing. And your senses know when that person says that they're out to get something. When that person says that, they're just not screwed up front. Exactly. You know who. You know when to open the door, when to close it.
- [05:00]
A
For sure. Oh, yeah. I think there's. There's. There's a lot there. And we talked about the timing. When do you know you should do a boundary second. I want to kind of move towards when you. I know how I frame boundaries and people Frame it in. In other words, the words to use
- [05:19]
B
because, well, that's where, you know, I got to tell you guys, I mean, are you really good at giving people need? I tell people all the time before a difficult conversation, if you're not good at this, other than watch Jefferson and you can watch everything, do this, sit down and get a script, write it down, because that's, you know, your language centers in your brain actually map a lot of behavior. And you should get a few of these lines like you give people and get a script. Secondly, if it's gonna be tough, go role play it with someone. Get a friend to play that difficult. You know what person.
- [06:01]
A
Yeah.
- [06:02]
B
And so you can practice.
- [06:03]
A
Yeah.
- [06:04]
B
And then you're gonna be more equipped. And then I tell them to, you know, get a difficult conversation sandwich before you talk to that person, meet with your shrink or your support friend or whatever. Talk about what you said. Know what you got to go out of there having said and what you don't want to say.
- [06:22]
A
Right.
- [06:22]
B
Go in there and do it and promise them your own column afterwards. It's amazing what that will do.
- [06:29]
A
I. When I think of when someone goes, how do I, you know, put a boundary in with their boss? It always goes to what? What are you asking? What are you wanting to do? Because a lot of the times they don't know that.
- [06:42]
B
Imagine.
- [06:43]
A
Yeah.
- [06:43]
B
Asking that question.
- [06:45]
A
It's the first question. They go, I didn't really think about it about that. You know, let me think. Well, let's. Let's start there.
- [06:51]
B
You know, remember in Alice in Wonderland?
- [06:53]
A
Yeah.
- [06:53]
B
She comes to the fork in the road, Cheshire Cat sitting there. She goes, which way do I go? He goes, where are you trying to get to? She goes, I don't know. He says, it doesn't much matter then, does it?
- [07:01]
A
Doesn't matter.
- [07:02]
B
And then she says, well, I want to go somewhere. He said, oh, you will, right?
- [07:05]
A
That's right. I want to go somewhere.
- [07:07]
B
And in a conversation.
- [07:08]
A
Yeah.
- [07:09]
B
Especially in significant relationships, especially with a difficult person, it's so important to know what you want in your. On your property, in your life, if you know what you want. And you don't want deception, you don't want control, you don't want abandonment.
- [07:25]
A
Right.
- [07:26]
B
When that shows up. It's a lot easier when you know what you want and you've hit on a key point. You know, this attorney thing. You should have been a shrink.
- [07:35]
A
Yeah. You know what? My dad was practically one because he taught me in what they call the Socratic method. That was how they do that in law school, Teaching. The professor asked questions. That was the way I got taught lessons. You know, I'd be upset with mom about something. He'd go, what do you think she's thinking about this? Come on. That's not what I want to talk about. You know, I need to be. I need to be angry. And that's. That was never kind of his. Thankfully, that was never his. His. Lane, I want to give you my framework of I like, and I want you to poke holes in it of something you think I should add.
- [08:09]
B
There's a law school training.
- [08:11]
A
Here we go. Tell me. Tell me what I'm missing here.
- [08:13]
B
You know, it's just. It's just frightening to be in a room with an attorney, you know? You know. You know that, right?
- [08:22]
A
You're right.
- [08:22]
B
Okay, I gotta tell you a funny.
- [08:24]
A
I'm ready.
- [08:24]
B
A funny attorney story about boundaries with your kids.
- [08:28]
A
Oh, perfect.
- [08:29]
B
How old are your kids?
- [08:30]
A
Eight and six. Okay, eight.
- [08:31]
B
Perfect age for. My girls are about that age. And. And that. You know, they're coming to you going, and Lucy, the little dad, Olivia did it, you know, and then Olivia runs. No, she. And so they're getting this thing. And so one day I said, hey, girls, just. Just stop. Let me explain this to you. What you have here is called the dispute. Now, dispute is when you have an argument over something, and what people do with disputes is they take it to the judge, and that's what you've done. So you brought this dispute into Daddy Court.
- [09:03]
A
Daddy court.
- [09:04]
B
And I'm going to be the judge, all right? And what that means, I'm gonna listen to what you say. I'm gonna listen what she says, and I'm gonna say, one abuse, right, and the other one's wrong. And I'll decide. They go, okay. I said, well, hang on. Daddy court's not free. There's court fees. And they go, what do you mean, court fees? I said, well, I mean, court, you know, the judge has got to get paid. You're renting this courtroom. It's gonna. Well, they said, how much are the court fees? I said, depends on how long the trial goes, how complicated it is. And they said, well, what? What? I said, I don't know. I mean, it could cost your bike or your American Girl dollar. Yeah, you're. And. And they literally looked at each other, said, that's okay. We'll figure it.
- [09:51]
A
We'll figure it out. So that's good.
- [09:53]
B
A boundary will offload the responsibility to the only person who can control it. And then they have to own it. And there you go. All of a sudden they found something called control.
- [10:09]
A
They said, you know what? I think we can figure this out.
- [10:11]
B
We can figure this out. Figure this out. Why am I taking responsibility for your argument?
- [10:14]
A
Yeah, no joke. All right, here's my, my method. That's what I like is so one, I tell people what we don't. What I don't accept or reject or I don't permit into my. My border. Right. My fence perimeter.
- [10:31]
B
Perfect.
- [10:31]
A
Two is I tell them the condition if this continues, if trespass continues, then three is the consequence, violators will be prosecuted. Exactly, exactly, exactly. And it is my. And that's where it comes down to. You have to be willing to do it because we know what it's like when somebody goes, if you say that one more time, I swear I'm going to. And they don't do it. And then the other person goes, well, I got you.
- [11:03]
B
Then it's not a boundary. It's nagging.
- [11:05]
A
Oh, yeah, that's exactly right. So it could be. I don't respond to disrespect. If you continue to speak to me disrespectfully, this is the end of the conversation of like putting that in a box. Okay, it's now been Henry Cloud, Dr. Cloud approved. This is what I'm going to put right underneath it.
- [11:26]
B
Let me dissect something really important here that you're doing. What you did was. And this is what a lot of people, a lot of people say, well, I'm going to put a boundary on that person. There's no such thing on that person. And they say it all the time. You can't put a boundary on someone. You put boundaries on yourself. Self control. You cannot control another person. They can continue to be an idiot or scream or take heroin or whatever it is. And what you did was you said basically without saying it, you said, you can continue to disrespect me. I don't allow myself to engage with that. And if you do, I will take control of myself and remove myself from this conversation. Now you can stay here for three weeks talking to air. Yeah, I just won't be here. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, your, your map is. Is really.
- [12:22]
A
Well, I think that's where. And I know you talk about this of the. The you versus I and where it's. You can't yell at me, which drives them all the power and in fact will only guarantee that. That they will. Watch this, Watch this. You think, you think this is yelling? You think, yeah, you know what? I had to grow up with. You think this is yelling.
- [12:46]
B
I love these. Just keep going.
- [12:48]
A
That kind of stuff. Right?
- [12:49]
B
Shut up. I'll give you something to whine about. Exactly.
- [12:51]
A
Exactly. Versus the. I don't respond to that volume. You know that. That's. That to me, once somebody engages, that kind of shift is exactly what you said. It's a. It's controlling what I'm gonna do.
- [13:07]
B
And you're the only one you can control.
- [13:09]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [13:11]
B
You've got to transfer the need to change the behavior. See, right now I'm feeling the need for you to stop yelling, but I can't control it. So what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna transfer the need to stop yelling to the only person who can stop yelling. That's the magic formula. And then they can choose to. Do they need the relationship or the time with you more than they need yelling, or do they choose yelling? It's up to them.
- [13:39]
A
I feel like I am Luke Skywalker talking to Obi Wan of communication is what it feels like. Yeah.
- [13:46]
B
I'm telling you, I feel like there's a term unconscious competent. I mean, you have been doing this so well. You just didn't know all the formulas. But you.
- [13:55]
A
I'm not a clinical psychologist.
- [13:57]
B
Yeah, but you're an attorney, and attorneys are. The whole law is boundaries. You know, we're talking about.
- [14:03]
A
Yeah. For good or for bad.
- [14:04]
B
Yeah. And.
- [14:05]
A
And.
- [14:05]
B
And change.
- [14:07]
A
Exactly. That's true.
- [14:08]
B
And in contract law.
- [14:10]
A
Right.
- [14:11]
B
It's looking ahead at the relationship.
- [14:14]
A
Yes.
- [14:14]
B
Saying, this is what I want to happen. And we had mutually agreed upon expectations. This is what I'm going to do. This is what you're gonna do.
- [14:21]
A
Yep.
- [14:22]
B
And if one of us doesn't. Here's what's going to happen.
- [14:26]
A
Yep. And I mean, every insurance contract is, here's this and here's what we exclude. And then they have exceptions to the exclusions. And there's all. It's all boundaries in some way or another. I want to make sure that I.
- [14:40]
B
People enter into relationships, they don't even know what their own expectations are.
- [14:46]
A
That's true.
- [14:46]
B
Until they're violated. And what you said so important to. In your life, you've got to define. These are the kind of people I want in my life. These are the kind of people I won't allow because it doesn't go well. And it's my job to enforce that.
- [15:05]
A
It's nobody else's.
- [15:06]
B
That's right.
- [15:07]
A
It's mine. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about David There is no use and convenience if it does not make your life better. Well, when I am traveling a lot or our family is on the go, we want to make sure, especially my wife and I, that we are hitting our protein goals. Why? Because we want to make sure that we are able to keep up with these kids, y'. All. David, I love what they're doing because they pack 28 grams of protein with 150 calories and 0 grams of sugar. And you compare that to a lot of other protein bars that you can stick in your pack and it could be 20 grams of protein, but it's like 350 grams of sugar. No wonder it tastes like icing. It's because it's not very good for you. The way that David has done this, which to me is almost magic, is the flavors they have taste like the flavors they say they will. So, for example, my wife loves the s' mores flavor. You eat it, it tastes exactly like s'. Mores. So if you want to be able to eat something that you feel is healthy, you know it's good, you know that it's top quality tier, look no farther than David. So head on over to davidprotein.com jefferson when you buy four cartons, you get the fifth free. And you can also use their store locator to find David protein at a store near you. And now let's keep going. How does one know when the end of a friendship relationship is not only advisable but also necessary?
- [16:39]
B
I think the first sentence of the book I put your today may be the biggest enemy of your tomorrow, meaning what's going on right now may be incompatible with the tomorrow you want to have. Be that tomorrow or next week or six months from now or 20 years from now. And what's going on right now, it is necessary for that to end. If you are going to have the tomorrow you want and not want to have this same conversation six months from now, a year from. So back to you, you got to know what you want and then these things happen. Happens all the time. One of the greatest humans for human virtues is hope. Things aren't where they ought to be, but we hope they'll be different. And what I talked about in the book is you've got to learn the difference between a wish and. And hope. A wish means I want them to be different. Hope is objective. Hope has grounding in some reason to hope. And so what you've got to diagnose is when we come to this juncture where this is going on and do I need to end this or should I keep going? You've got to. The worst thing you can do when you're head down wrong road is hope that it's going to turn into the right road. You are down the wrong road.
- [18:15]
A
Right.
- [18:16]
B
It is necessary to end that, turn around and go back to the beginning. But there is time to have hope. And what you've got to ask is, is there an objective reason why if I continue in this, it's going to be different? And there are objective factors that you can look for that can tell you that. And if you don't see them, proceed at your own risk. Which is what you guys put on signs on people's properties. There's alligators. Proceed at your own risk.
- [18:49]
A
Exactly.
- [18:51]
B
And you got to figure that out. I mean, just a few of them. I've got an actual list in there. But the first one was is there an awareness and an ownership by the other person? An ownership of what they are doing is not okay.
- [19:09]
A
That's key. This first is ownership element ownership.
- [19:12]
B
If they are still excusing it, blaming you for it, blaming external factors, minimizing it. All the things that the classic narcissist does, you know, the denial, the minimizing, the excusing, the blaming. If you see that you are not at the point to have hope because they're the only ones that can change. And you can't change a problem if you don't have one. And if they still think they don't have a problem, get ready for tomorrow, looks like today. Exactly. So if they own it and they understand empathically, you know, trust, Trust is in part based on the other person understanding the effect of what they do has on us, what we need, what hurts us. And if they understand it and can get out of their self centeredness into an awareness of. I can see this really hurt you.
- [20:07]
A
The acknowledgment.
- [20:08]
B
Acknowledge the affirmation and see it and empathize with it. And truly be remorseful that I don't want to treat you like that. I care about you.
- [20:19]
A
What hurts you hurts me.
- [20:20]
B
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's good start. That's the start. Yeah. Now we can talk. Okay. Now, if they own it, do they really understand what the behavior is? And then if they say, okay, I know that hurt you, I'm so sorry, I won't do it anymore. That's not enough. What is new and different that's going to ensure that won't happen again? If my, if I got a bent axle on my car and it's going like this. And I pull over and say, you're rallying my car. And it says, okay, I'm sorry. I won't do it anymore. That ain't enough, buddy.
- [20:59]
A
Ain't gonna do it.
- [21:01]
B
So then we've got to see what is going to be involved in some sort of process to enable them to change. Are they. Do they say, I'm going to get a coach, I'm gonna get a therapist, I've got an accountability group. I'm going into treatment, whatever. We got to see something new and different. It's going to build the capacity for them to be able to do what they're promising us they're going to do. And then we got to see them having some sort of a verifiable, you know, adherence to that. They're actually showing up saying, oh, I'm going to go to hey. Or something. Where are you going? You know. Right. Some way to verify that.
- [21:46]
A
Which gives you security. Yeah.
- [21:48]
B
Yes. And another one, the motivation to change, it's got to come from them. If you're having to push them, you need to go to the. You know, you said you and you. Come on, let's go. You can trust people who want to be the person you need for them to be, but they want it on their own. Even if you walked away.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah.
- [22:13]
B
They're going to get sober for themselves. Right. They're going to turn into a trustworthy person because that's the person they want to be. If you're having to drive it, what happens when you stop pushing?
- [22:25]
A
Yeah.
- [22:26]
B
So, I mean, you've seen this in court. Sure. Somebody goes to court, you go for the judge, and they want, you know, some sort of leniency or some sort of. And the judge is going to go, well, show me what you plan to do.
- [22:42]
A
Right.
- [22:42]
B
You know, and, well, we'll see you in a month and six months. We'll see if you're sticking to that. And there you go.
- [22:50]
A
Do you find that, by the way, I love all this stuff. I feel like I'm like breathing straight oxygen right now. I love. I love this kind of stuff. So. Because all of those things that you talked about are so critical not only to. Not only to business, in many ways, they're also incredibly important to relationships. They're important to trauma or shame or addiction or. I mean, any kind of repair that you're having to go through and say, okay, is this something that we can. Is it repairable or not? And so what I hear you saying is some factors that tell you, is it worth repairing or not? Is there an ownership by them? Is there an actual acknowledgment, affirmation of saying, I can see that what I've done has caused you pain, and that hurts me, and I don't like that, and I don't want that.
- [23:43]
B
I love what you said. What hurts you hurts me.
- [23:46]
A
Yeah. What hurts you hurts me. And three, this aspect of. Can you see the inner desire for change separate and apart? That desire for change lives apart from you to be able to continue to go, do you find that when we come to this necessary ending, if I'm going to communicate, if you're going to talk to somebody across from you and they go, doctor, how do I know if I need to cut. If I need to end this relationship? Now, you could have some of those three factors. Is there one overlying principle that you would share with that person if you could just have to sit with the person? Yes.
- [24:26]
B
Well, you start with, you know, we talked about earlier kind of what the boundary is of what you will accept and can accept and desire and what you don't. Now, a lot of times, even in business or if somebody's dating or whatever, or marriage, it's important to tell somebody, you know, let's say they work for you. So, you know, you. You have an important seat that you sit in. That position that you sit in is really important to the success of this team and this company and our customers. And whoever sits in that seat, this is what I'll need to see from them. I hope that's you. But this is what I'll need to see from whoever occupies that seat. I hope it's you. And you're the one that gets to choose if you want to be in that seat, then we can talk about a path to get there here. That will start a great conversation. That's so good.
- [25:25]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [25:26]
B
I mean, what if you're.
- [25:27]
A
I love. I hope that's you.
- [25:29]
B
Oh, well, they think of.
- [25:30]
A
That's so good.
- [25:31]
B
I mean, even, you know, let's say a spouse, somebody had an affair or something. Yeah, I love you, but whoever I'm married to is not going to be doing that.
- [25:45]
A
No, they can't keep doing that.
- [25:46]
B
Yeah, whoever sits in that chair is my spouse. Will not be sleeping around. Whoever it is, I want that to be you. So. But you're gonna have to figure out if you can sit in that chair or not. That's up to you. And if you decide you want to, then we can talk about a path, how to Possibly get back.
- [26:12]
A
Yeah. And that goes back to the first off for that other person, the boundaries that have to be adhere to and knowing the consequence if they're not. And then that goes back to the ownership, the affirmation, the willingness to change and structured path.
- [26:30]
B
Proven path.
- [26:30]
A
The proven path.
- [26:31]
B
Some way to validate that. And when you got all that, that's just like I signed up for college. Well, what kind of grades are you making? I mean, there's got to be a track record of them showing up and incremental invitation back. Not all or nothing. They're doing all this. Oh, we're back to where we were. No, And I. I just saw a couple turn around. The worst scenario. I mean, it's. Nobody had any hope. Everybody was telling to divorce and they turned it around. It took a minute, but. But they turned it around. And what was. What was so key to that is that when. And in this case, she was the one that change had to come from and he had to change. But she was the big ballet. And when he agreed to open himself up to that process, he didn't say, okay, great move back in. They were separated. He said, we're going to start with having one date per week and I'm going to see if you're different or not. Because she was pretty abusive. If something triggered her, I mean, she could. He wanted to see if she could have a conversation and talk about stuff without. And when she passed that thing there too. And then they gradually. And now they are. And it's been a while now together.
- [28:09]
A
A while.
- [28:09]
B
How many years since that?
- [28:11]
A
Yeah,
- [28:14]
B
they're about two years now. And they say they are in love more and having the greatest marriage they've ever had. And it was everybody telling him he should divorce.
- [28:25]
A
Wow.
- [28:26]
B
But that's the path that they worked.
- [28:29]
A
I think that shows a lot of the two sides of the necessary ending and that you use that phrase. What was the today and the tomorrow. Say it again, if you don't mind.
- [28:41]
B
Today may be the biggest enemy of your tomorrow. That's so good.
- [28:48]
A
I feel like I'm just getting constant. Just bombs. These are so good. I love this guy. This the kind of stuff I keep a collection like phrases that I love. That's one of them. I'm definitely adding that to one of them. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Monarch. As the summer is heating up, you want to be focused on summer plans, having fun with your family and friends and doing things and not concerned about your money. Well, Monarch makes It that much easier to stay focused on the sunshine outdoors. What it is, it is a app, all right? An online financial dashboard to where it has all the inputs from whether it's your income, the cash, investments, what do you have going on on. And it's saying what all is coming in and what all is going out that you can see it all in one glance from either your phone or your laptop. And what I really like about it is it makes it very clear of where everything's going and takes all the guesswork out of it. And they now have this AI weekly recap where AI will tell you and answer questions like where is my money going? Where am I spending too much on? What do you recommend? That kind of stuff gives you confidence and clarity to make sure that you're making financial decisions that's going to help your family. And when you can make it that much more convenient and that much easier, it's going to make your life that much easier. You know what it's going to make that summer and those summer plans and getting that summer body maybe, I don't know, that much easier. So you can go over to monarch.com where you can get 50, half off at Monarch Core, that Monarch Core subscription for $50, which is pretty awesome. Monarch.com Jefferson for $50 off, half off. And now let's keep going. You, I, I heard you speak at church and you did an awesome job so well that I thought you were the, it was our first time visiting there and I thought you were the pastor.
- [30:36]
B
As I said, I'm, you know, pastors get paid to be good. I'm good for nothing. I can't be that holy all the time. All the time.
- [30:46]
A
Well, you, you made a, you made a point that has stuck with me. And I mentioned this to you when I saw you over the weekend was this element of seasons. Now as a, as a dad, as a, a parent of an eight year old and a six year old, I
- [31:02]
B
look at other couples and you're like looking, it's almost halftime.
- [31:08]
A
Yeah, don't say that to me, please.
- [31:09]
B
Clocks running and you got to figure out how long do we still have to win. How are we doing going to the halftime huddle. This is a crucial season.
- [31:17]
A
This is a super crucial season. I agree.
- [31:19]
B
I agree.
- [31:20]
A
We're making, we're making the right place right now. We're making the right place. And you said sometimes you have to know what season of life that you're in.
- [31:32]
B
That's right.
- [31:32]
A
And how that spoke to me was I see these other Dads who play golf all the time. Or I see these dads who go hunting and fishing all the time and a golf tournament or a fishing tournament or they're going to this show or that show. And I think sometimes I truly. I think that would be nice. I'd like to go do that.
- [31:57]
B
Of course.
- [31:57]
A
And then I. Something happens when I look at my kids and I go, I can't. I can't do that. And I know of moms who. They're at brunch and they see some girls having mimosas and instead they're with their kids opening up yogurt pouches. You know, with all that and. And I found. Found your words. Such a piece to me of knowing that's not my season. Like I can. Maybe it'll be there again. But right now that's. That's not my season. And I would love if you would just give a little bit of insight on that. That concept for the listeners.
- [32:34]
B
I think he put it. I. I don't want that. I don't want to be disconnected from my kids.
- [32:42]
A
Right.
- [32:43]
B
And back to. It's not true. But there's truth to the phrase and it's not true. So don't get injured by this. If the places. It doesn't apply. But a lot of times we get what we want. We get when we desire the most. And if I desire my own interests and hobbies and fun over my desire for my kids, that's what I'm gonna get. But you started with the right place. What do I want? You look at that. Tomorrow. And what kind of tomorrow do I wanna have? Well, I wanna have. In your case, I wanna have the high school years where they're learning to go out all this stuff, but they still wanna come home.
- [33:35]
A
Yeah.
- [33:36]
B
And where that becomes a hub where their friends want to come. I mean that's. That's the key to teenage parents, right?
- [33:41]
A
Yeah.
- [33:41]
B
When you become the place. And then after they're gone, I want them to be independent, but I want them to still stay connected us too, without controlling. I look at that future. Well, me being gone and showing them that everything else in life is more important to me than them. You will get that in the future. And it's so important. You know, in the book I talk about different seasons, have different activities. And in the spring you sow.
- [34:07]
A
Which book is this?
- [34:08]
B
Necessary endings. Okay. In the spring you've got. You can't demand harvest. How many late night have you taken an airplane to get home from speaking somewhere? So you'd be There the next morning when your kids woke up, you're sewing. Don't expect a big reward today for that. So we got to realize to build a good marriage, to build a good business, talk to any entrepreneur, start a company. When I started my hospital company, I didn't get a paycheck the first four years. There's a period of sowing and you got to accept that. And then there's summer comes after you sow, this plant starting to emerge, you're going to have to be devoted to managing the growth to where it turns into what you want it to turn into. And the harvest is going to come later and, and then at some point, what you're engaged in that may come to an end.
- [35:07]
A
Yeah.
- [35:08]
B
And there's a winter and the activity of the winter. You see this in empty nesters. That season of parenting is over. You got to take the time. What do farmers do in the winter? They get their equipment, they clean it up, they get it in working order and they figure out what do I want to plant next spring. So you got to figure out what season you're in and define the activities that are, that are appropriate for that season to get what you want at harvest time.
- [35:35]
A
You, you had made the comment of, of your own realization of I couldn't be a good, I couldn't be a golfer and a good dad at the same time.
- [35:44]
B
Yeah, I, I grew up playing competitive golf and time my kids were born, I was back playing. I had an injury in college and had to quit. But by then I was playing again. And I was playing a lot of pretty high level amateur tournaments. And for golfers out there is a plus three handicap.
- [36:04]
A
Yeah, that's really good.
- [36:07]
B
But to maintain that, I really had to work on it. And, and I got married later. I was in my 30s when I got married. And at that point when it's time to have kids, I realized I can't be a plus three handicap and a good dad. There's just no way. So I'm not telling everybody you got to do this, but level I wanted to play at. So I quit for 17 years.
- [36:37]
A
Just quit golf for 17 years?
- [36:40]
B
Yeah. Now I could have played then. People play golf and have kids, but I couldn't play at the level that I would love it. And I don't like it when I'm out there hacking it. And I really want, I just want, I want to be a dad.
- [36:59]
A
I think that it spoke to me. I wanted to make sure that you knew that really spoke to me and gave me a lot of comfort because it is very easy to get jaded and jealous even. I love my kids. I can stare at my kids and weep. You know, just tears in your eyes, looking at them. At the same time, I can look at other friends that, you know, they were out in another state hunting. And I can get jealous, of course.
- [37:27]
B
Well, is it desire, something wrong with that?
- [37:29]
A
Exactly.
- [37:30]
B
After you got married, you still noticed attractive women, right?
- [37:33]
A
Yeah. And so it's like, how do you. How do you. But you got kids. Right. And so I. That just gave me a lot of peace of this. This, the mantra. I've said it to myself several times over the last two months since I first saw you speak. And it was the. This, that's not my season. This is not my season. And every time it just makes my shoulders drop of like, nope, that's not my season. And I think that applies so much to also business and where you are in life, even as a couple of what? As a couple, what season are you in? Are you planting? Are you growing? Are you harvesting? And what are you doing? I want to make sure that I. I talk about your new book, your desire, Five essential steps that take you where you want to go. I know this is, you say like your 50th something book. Just. I mean, I feel like you just spit out wisdom and like you just drop it out of your pocket constantly. So I'm all for it. We're going to make sure that we put the links down in the show notes. But I know from this book you bring out these five essential steps that talk about having, like, a very defined future of where you. Where you want to do.
- [38:44]
B
Yeah.
- [38:44]
A
And not just define. But you said compelling. I mean, use the word compelling of like, what that means.
- [38:50]
B
Is it enough to get you out of bed?
- [38:52]
A
That's a great one. Is it enough to get you up and excited out of bed?
- [38:56]
B
I mean, it's in rocket science either. I mean, yeah, I'm kind of hungry, but I'm watching the Masters on tv. Am I hungry enough to go actually make a sandwich now? I'm away till the next sometimes, you know. Yeah, sometimes you got to eat. What do you want? That's right. But here's the thing. Motivation won't get you there. Right. And that's what you'll hear a lot of people say. Well, if he wanted bad enough, he would do it. That's not true. Motivation can be research inversely correlated to achieving a goal. Because sometimes we want it so bad, but we're. We're not getting it it's not working. All right? Not making it. And then you get so depressed over that it takes away everything. So we need motivation. But if we don't have the path by which things get accomplished in place, it's not going to happen.
- [39:54]
A
This episode is sponsored by, you know it, Cozy Earth. In fact, I'm wearing Cozy Earth right now. This navy, wonderful, snug, leak, cozy sweatshirt that I have multiple colors in because they feel that good. There's one thing I love about Cozy Earth is that everything I put on with them just feels awesome. And I can dress it up, I can dress it down. They usually have, like, if I'm wearing. Depends what pants I have on, admittedly. And if I'm just wearing. If I'm wearing sneakers or what I'm doing. But the top is always solid. So if you're like me and you like, if you want to look good even in casual, going to run to the grocery store or you're wanting to go pick up your kids from school, or you want to be like me and be in a podcast episode and you know other people are going to be filming you, you need to look at Cozy Earth because their stuff's fantastic. Cozyearth.com Jefferson get up to 20% off@cozyearth.com Jefferson and now let's keep going. I want to make sure that I, I give the listeners these steps, these five steps on your des, because I want to. I want to see if we can apply it to some stuff I got going on. So one is your vision. Two, engaging talent. Three, strategy for the plan. Five, accountability. I know you have.
- [41:14]
B
Well, actually, strategy and plan is part of. And then there's measurement, accountability, or the fourth, and then fixing it.
- [41:21]
A
Fix and adapt is number five. Okay, let's take. Let me, let's. I feel like I'm at a place in life where I'm still just trying to figure it out. And I go, okay, I want to know my desired future. Dr. Cloud. So, you know, we all do. Yeah, exactly. I want to know why. Desired future. So the first thing you would tell me is, Jefferson, you want to make sure that you have a compelling plan or vision for your future. Now, I can tell you I sometimes don't do that. Great at goal setting or your vision casting. My wife and I, Sierra and I, we were at a speaking engagement and we stayed an extra day, and we're like, we're going to do some gold vision castings. We weren't very good at it. We tried, we tried asking questions, but we found we Were. We kept being really vague with things. It was really hard to have something concrete. So when you go a vision, how specific do you need to be with your vision?
- [42:20]
B
The brain, the human brain hates ambiguity, and it loves clarity. All right, now, I say that for a reason. Because where I got the model of the book was, you know, there's all this performance literature out there, but it's so much. Where do you start? And I thought, wouldn't it be helpful to have a little GPS where somebody wake up every day and just ask the question, am I doing these things? Okay, yeah. And I decided to use as the model the most incredible performance machine that's ever been created. And it's the human body. There's nothing like it. AI they're trying to imitate what we do.
- [43:03]
A
Right.
- [43:03]
B
So what happens? Your prefrontal cortex. We're the only species that can do this. My dog just runs and does what she. She's going to bark to protect the. Like she's wired. But she never stops and says, I wonder if that was helpful. Is that going to get me where I want to be next Thursday?
- [43:19]
A
It was a little too loud.
- [43:20]
B
Exactly. We have the capacity to stop and say, here's where I am. Where do I want to really be next Thursday? And what do I need to do to get there? Okay, so when your brain does that and you get clarity on that, it's unbelievable. The neurobiology that starts and then. And the. It pulls networks of everything associated that, memories and. And all of that, and it's really already beginning based on the clarity of what you want. This is why the research always shows people write down their goals 70, 80% more likely to achieve them. But that just starts the process now. Okay, brain go there. If I'm going over there. Brain go there. Yeah, your brain ain't going nowhere by itself. It starts to send out emails to engage the talent, it's going to need to help it get there. I'm gonna need a couple legs. I'm gonna need some eyes to focus on so it gets the talent around the table. And this, you can hire it. It might be a friend. It might be an uncle that knows how to do it. It might be a support group, who knows? But you're not going by yourself for 10,000 reasons. We need to have the right talent around us. Okay, so now I got all my talent. Okay, well, all right, I'm gonna go. Well, wait, how am I gonna get there? I'm gonna call an Uber. Well, that doesn't really fit the market. Right that's not the best. Number three strategy. Your brain decides the best way to win. I'm gonna walk in this context, that's my best strategy. Your brain actually at that point begins to write a plan that you're even aware of how many steps it's going to take every second, three feet, certain heading. While it's doing that, it has come up with a measurement and accountability system that as you start walking, it's looking at it like an autopilot and going, you know, you veered off, you're going to hit the window and it steers you back. Number five, it fixes and adapts. So what are we talking about? You know where you're going, you better get the talent around you. You better know how you're going to win or you're going to be trying every random thing in the world. I'll go to Instagram and see what. No, you got a strategy. You listen to Jefferson. If you want to communicate, that's your strategy. You got to have a plan. You do it every day and you got to have somebody hold you accountable. And if you miss a day, you got to, you know, whatever, right? But you gotta, if these ingredients aren't there, and here's the problem, none of us are naturally drawn to all five. Somebody might be great at imagining in this, in, in strategy, but what if you're conflict avoidant? How is accountability going to work in there, you know, or what? Go back to vision. What if you come from a background, let's say you didn't grow up in house full of lawyers, right? They valued education. I work with a, a group in, in LA called First Star. They take foster kids. Almost 100% of foster kids don't graduate high school and virtually none go to college. They get them in the ninth grade and they start to take them once a month to UCLA for a weekend and they start to train them in life skills and how to have an interview and how to do a budget and all this kind of stuff. 100% of their kids graduate high school and 90 something go to secondary education. Why? Because they have a strategy, they have a plan, they have accounting. They're doing this now. But here's what the kids say when they ask them at the end, what did it for you? And I think it's 70% put in the book. 70% of them say it was getting a vision that this was possible. For me, a lot of people, Jefferson, they've been so wounded or lost so many times that even having a vision that a good relationship is possible for them or an education or a career. It just. It dies at the vision thing because of the internal voices that shut it down. And sometimes this is going to sound funny. Sometimes we need all five steps, and the vision is to get a vision. So now my vision is to get a vision, like you said. How do my wife. What I would do if your wife and I want to get a vision, I would engage the talent to help you get a vision. Bring in a good facilitator who does this with couples and helps them come up with the vision for their marriage. What do y' all want to do over 30 years? What do you want your family to accomplish when you look back and you get that vision? And then, okay, if that's it, what talent do we need to bring to help you do that? And. And then what's the strategy? Well, the strategy might be, okay, we're going to meet weekly with it. And you just. Yeah, it's just how it happens.
- [48:31]
A
Hit those five steps just to get the vision, maybe. And. Right. You might. And I think you made a good point, too, of the. That's why some people might be good at the vision and some much better at the strategy.
- [48:42]
B
They call them dreamers.
- [48:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, right. They just have really good ideas.
- [48:46]
B
When my office was in Beverly Hills and clients would fly in and they'd always say, okay, but while I'm here, I want to see an actor. You know, I want to see an actor. I go, I can get it to you. We'll see an actor. They said, how? I said, well, we're in Beverly Hills. I mean, I promise, you go to lunch, you'll see an actor. But what I knew that they didn't was, every waiter in Beverly Hills is an actor. Yeah, you will meet an actor today. Now, sometimes you're gonna see some roles. But the point being, I would, you know, if you talk to these servers and they say, you know, I'm an actor, and then you say, well, what do you. What about scene that you've been in? And sometimes, you know, well, I just got here. I've been here a year and still working on it. That's great. You gotta do that in the beginning. But sometime you were here, I'm a screenwriter. I'm an actor.
- [49:35]
A
Yeah.
- [49:35]
B
And I said, what have I seen? And you know, and they said, well, I'm working on, you know, I got this new project, and it's always out there. Something's going to happen. And they're like 50 years old, and they've been there for 30 years. And no, it's probably not going to happen. And if you had the video, you would see it's very different than the ones who actually have the talent around them to help them get better. Right. To get the auditions, get the skills, a strategy to do that. I mean, you think some of these guys, like, you know, like Marky Mark and Matt Damon, people like that, you look at their careers. It has been a strategic process. It's not luck.
- [50:16]
A
Yeah. It just doesn't just happen every now
- [50:17]
B
and then somebody wins the lottery. But usually it's that path right there. These five ingredients are going to be there.
- [50:23]
A
Reminds me of the. The Piano man by Billy Joel of, like, the people that came into the dive bar and, you know, I could have been a movie star. You know, I could have been this, I could have been that. You know, just the. The dreamers. And if only this would have happened,
- [50:38]
B
it would have been the lyrics. That thing are so good. Oh, so good and so sad. Yeah. You know, the worst thing you can die with is potential.
- [50:47]
A
When you talk to somebody, this is. This is a selfish question. Sometimes I don't know what I want. Of course, like, I really. I. I do. I. Sometimes I struggle with that because here I'll. I'll make it personal. I never saw my life anything like this right here. Had. No. No, I had no clue.
- [51:07]
B
Where's the judge and jury?
- [51:09]
A
Exactly. Yeah. There was no. This wasn't in the vision. You know, this wasn't in the vision. I had a very strategic vision of what I thought my legal career was going to be to a T. And now I am in what feels like a dream world. And so I have a very difficult time when I talk to other friends who seem like they know what they're doing and they have big social followings and. And they go, what do you. What? Just depends what you want. What do you want? And I go, I didn't know I'd be even in the room.
- [51:44]
B
And so what do you like what you do?
- [51:45]
A
I love what I do. I love. I never thought you want what you're doing. Yeah, I don't want to stop this. I mean, I. I do love that. I just. When they go, well, where do you want to go with it? Or I think I also talk to people I know in conversations that when I'll say, what do you want them to know? Advice here.
- [52:07]
B
Can I roll for a second?
- [52:09]
A
Yeah.
- [52:09]
B
There is an underlying theme here, and this speaks to your heart. Okay. And it speaks to that question. Many times in life we find Ourselves in different contexts, doing different things. But if you look underneath it, there's a theme to it that taps into your. What you love to do what you're good at, and there's a need for it in the world. You gotta have those three things. I could love to do it, but if I suck at it, I'm not gonna play for the Lakers. Fine. Or I could love something that's a great. I mean, but yeah.
- [52:44]
A
Matchability.
- [52:45]
B
Yeah.
- [52:45]
A
Yeah.
- [52:46]
B
And the world didn't care. You know, I got sell team. When you are an attorney, one of the things you're doing is you're helping people clarify how to protect themselves and have the best property, their life that they can have. And you're helping them structure that. And you did that in contracts and litigation. Right. Now what are you doing? You're helping people look at their lives and their hearts and their minds and how to protect that and get the good things for them. It's the same thing I never thought. And what you're going to be doing, I don't know. You may find a different part of your heart that wants. But I would guess there's a part of you that you're. You're always going to be seeing what people need, helping them protect what is good and protect and helping them gain the skills to protect themselves from what's bad. It's going to be fun to watch you and see where this emerges. Well, I, I appreciate I'm gonna be in the audience.
- [54:01]
A
Yeah, well, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be calling on you. That's what I'm going to be doing. Your desired future. Dr. Henry Cloud. This is so good. I get. I mean we already. I feel like I'm already proof this. This session right here was proof that this book works. Like I'm about to get somebody to help me get this vision underground.
- [54:21]
B
Of course.
- [54:22]
A
This is wonderful. Thank you so much for.
- [54:24]
B
It's been a pleasure.
- [54:25]
A
This has been one of my favorite.
- [54:27]
B
Well, I told you when, when we met, I go, dude, I've been riding in the car with you for a long time. Yeah.
- [54:32]
A
So glad, so glad we'd be able to ride together. And once I found out that you were able to come on, I was just so, so excited. So I look forward to staying in touch and really, really honored by the. The value that you share. I think you were really one of. To me, one of like the OG godfathers of this space before it became such a viral thing online and social media and took off. I mean, I think your your heart was in the right place already of helping so many people with boundaries and knowing what's worth repairing and what's not and businesses and. How do you know? Because it all applies the same way. And so I think that's just incredible work. So your body of work is something that I. Of the amount of people that ask me often, you know, who do you look up to? Who, who. Who's the type that you. This is kind of what I would be honored to model myself after. You're definitely one of them. And so I really, really appreciate that.
- [55:30]
B
If I were you, I'd raise the bar. But that's.
- [55:32]
A
Yeah, we. Thanks. I appreciate you coming on.
- [55:35]
B
It's great. Thanks. Great to be here.