← The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
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- [00:01]
A
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By visiting lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
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B
There is one place that is probably more important in your life than any other place, and it's the place that you spend the most time. The workplace. Today I've brought you somebody who knows the workplace like nobody else. She's the most followed content creator and specifically career and workplace strategies. And I want to talk to her today. Erin McGough and Aaron, thank you so much for coming.
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A
Jefferson, thank you so much for having me. It's so great to get to talk in person after exchanging so many dms.
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B
Yeah, I know we were like encouraging each other along the way as we were each growing. I know you have like over 6 million followers on across all your platforms, which is incredible. And it's been really fun to cheer each other on along the way. So congratulations with everything.
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A
Oh my gosh, congratulations to you. Your book is fantastic. It's on my bookshelf. And I have to say real quick, my mom is your biggest fan ever and she loves your content so much. So shout out to Mom.
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B
Shout out to Mom. What's mom's name?
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A
Claire. She's the one from Texas, from the Panhandle.
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B
Oh, that's right. That's right. Claire, love that you're from Texas. Thanks for following me. That's awesome. This is one of my favorite kind of conversations when I can talk to other creators who are similar in space because it could be a very lonely space when you're getting into it. And this is a question that I ask just about every one of my guests that I have. And this is the first question specifically with communication. Aaron, how does Erin McGough talk to herself? Like, I want you to share with people the how do you encourage yourself? What's the self talk like before we start talking about how to engage with everybody else?
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A
Oh, so important. The way that you communicate with yourself is the most important person you will ever communicate with is yourself. I always say, like, my key to confidence is just being your own best friend, you know, talking to yourself the way that you would talk to a best friend. So, you know, if I look in the mirror and I Hear that? Thought of, oh, I don't look very good today. I imagine if my friend was saying that and what I would say to her, and I'd be like, you're ridiculous. Like, it's okay. Just go take a shower. You know? So I like to keep it real with myself, but also give myself so much empathy and compassion because we're oftentimes our worst critic. So be your own best friend. I'm my own best friend.
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B
Be your own best friend. Do you hear that, everybody? I love that. I think that's wonderful. And do you, you say it like in the mirror or when you're driving to yourself, or do you imagine a duplicate of yourself when you're thinking this?
- [03:09]
A
Yeah, I probably sound a little bit crazy, but yeah, I mean, after a while, it just became a habit. Like, you look in the mirror or, you know, you hear those critical thoughts of yourself where, oh, I sounded bad in that meeting. Oh, those people didn't like me. And then you just respond to yourself and you're like, those people probably liked you. Like, there's no indicator that they didn't like you. And then after a while, that just becomes one singular voice. I know it sounds kind of split personality, ish, but I truly, I noticed it the other day. I'm like, wow, I'm actually really kind to myself. I keep it real. You can't just be worshiping yourself all the time. You have to keep it real with yourself. But you, like, you would keep it real with a best friend. You know, you don't just worship a best friend and constantly, you know, boost them up and up and up, but you need to be real with them sometimes. So that's why I like that kind of saying. Be your own best friend.
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B
I like that. And I think it's a healthy balance too. You can hype them up at the same time. You have to be like, hey, listen, I know you think you're great. I need to give you the truth. So I think that's get your butt to the gym. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You gotta get going, get out of bed, get going. Um, Aaron is the most followed career advice content creator out there. Before we talk about some strategies, I understand you're the youngest of six kids.
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A
I am, yeah.
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B
Yeah, that's the. So what's like the age difference between them all? And I'm the oldest of four, so hearing this perspective is really cool for me.
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A
Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. I'm the youngest of six. We're all about two and a half years apart, so there's like a 12 year gap between me and the oldest sibling.
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B
That's. That's incredible. That's awesome. And growing up, you know, what did you find? How did you think that shaped your communication and your drive growing up now?
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A
It's a great question. I think I'm a typical youngest child. You have to learn how to get a word in. And that's why I think I speak so quickly, is because. And have a sense of humor. A lot of youngest children have a sense of humor because we're just trying to get our word in and trying to get attention. So I definitely learned how to think really quick on my feet, be pithy and concise, because you're trying to just get a word in. And to be fair, my parents were really good about giving everybody equal attention and time and being very fair about things. But, yeah, you definitely learn how to be very quick on your feet.
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B
I can definitely see that. And I think that's why your career advice content does so well, is because you have, as you know, we have a very short window of time to give a whole lot of information to people. And like with my followers, we get a lot of value out of what you could say. Were scripts like how I would I tell people, instead of this word, I want you to flip it and use this word or maybe the structure of a sentence, I want them to reverse it or replace a certain phrase. And so I could see how, you know, as the youngest, getting that word in. Being really quick on your feet is very strategic when it comes to communicating in the workplace.
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A
Yeah. Oh, definitely. And yeah, being the youngest, you're always talked down to as well, especially of six. You know, I was like bottom of eight people. And so everybody's always talking down to you. So you really learn how to kind of like manage up from a young age and like, talk up to people. And it was definitely always treated older than I was, I think. So people always tell me I was mature for my age. So, yeah, I would say it very, very much affected me in a positive way growing up in that big, big tribe. But, yeah, I definitely don't want to have six kids. I don't know how anybody can manage that this day and age, but they do.
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B
All right, so as the most followed career advice content creator, where do you draw your experience from, Aaron?
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A
So, so, so many different places. I mean, every morning I listen to business podcasts, I read studies and research, but I also just talk to people every single day in my DMs, I'm conversing with recruiters, business owners, and especially job seekers. And I just like to be like kind of a boots on the ground person listening. And then when it comes to all the advice that I share, it's truly just wisdom that I've stolen from so many people in my life. You know, I listen to TED talks, but I also just will like give advice that I heard from my dad or from, you know, my aunt or something like that. So it's truly just a mosaic. And I basically just look to some of the wisest minds in the world. I listen to what I hear repeated over and over again. And then the cherry on top is kind of what I've experienced in my own life. I don't really give advice from personal experience. I more like to research a variety of sources and then kind of boil it down and then put my personal experience kind of as a cherry on top. So I run a lot of my content, like through friends who work in different industries and stuff like that. So yeah, it's really. My content's a lot more researched, I think, than people realize.
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B
Oh, that's awesome. Very cool. So I'm like the opposite. Mine is 0% researched and all, you know, from my world in the communication and litigation courtroom world. Whereas you are more of a encyclopedia, like library resource of all the tools that people can use and go to when it comes to the workplace and career. Right.
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A
Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, like we're both giving subjective advice, you know, so you might say one thing, another career expert might say another thing. So, yeah, like, as much as I like to pretend it's objective and research based, like, at the end of the day, it really is just subjective.
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B
Oh yeah, it all is. I mean, that's why I end with, so try that. Yeah, it's not, it's not you must do this. It's just, you can try it if you like it. If you don't like it, you don't have to. I want to get into a topic, Aaron, that I know that anybody in the workplace has dealt with before and continues to deal with. And that's specific to interviews where I know you're very, very versed in interviews. This is the question I want to ask. How do you handle the what's your greatest weakness? Interview question?
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A
Yeah, man. Can you believe they're still asking that question?
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B
I can't believe it. I can actually.
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A
Yeah, well, there's a couple things. So the first thing is to understand the question behind the question is what I say. So when they're asking, what is your greatest weakness? They're not actually asking about what your greatest weakness is. Like mine is Ben and Jerry's half baked ice cream. They're not really curious about that. What they're really asking is, what are your red flags? Are you going to reveal something to me that I might need to know? Also, it's kind of a signal of how professional you are, because if you're caught off guard by this question or if you answer it wrong, it kind of signals to them that you don't know that that was an interview question that people ask and you didn't know how to answer it. So it's kind of part of this hidden curriculum and secret language of work. So there's that. So they're really asking, how well can you professionally articulate yourself? So the question's about articulation, and then the second half of it is how to answer. And I always teach something called the 1090 rule. So you should spend only 10% of your answer naming the weakness and then the remaining 90% talking about how you're working on it. So you're really talking about self awareness. I'm aware of this weakness within myself. Here's why it's important, and here's what I'm doing to address it. And you know what, it's really working out so far. And you don't want to name something. Like a lot of people will say, oh, well, I'm a perfectionist. And you'll get an immediate eye roll. You don't want to name something that's a character trait. Like, you don't want to say, like, I'm a perfectionist or this is just the way that I am. You know, you want to name something kind of tangible that you're working on. And something else that's really important is that it needs to be real, but don't have it be directly hindering. Like it shouldn't hinder your ability to do the job. You know, um, so, you know, delegation is safe for a lot of people. Not if you're a manager. Don't say delegation. But you know, something that I'm currently working to improve are my delegation skills. So each week I try to delegate one task and, you know, I keep a sticky note next to my laptop and it's really helping me remember that. So.
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B
So I think that brings up such a good point. When anybody, a supervisor, somebody interviewing you is asking that greatest weakness question, what I hear you saying is you need to see the issue behind the issue. They don't really Care about your weakness. They're wondering where can, where, where are the problems with you? Where are those, can you talk about those red flags? And I love how it's, you need to talk about something that's concrete and preferably something you're working on. So it's not like the, my, my weaknesses, I'm, I'm just too honest or, you know, I'm too much of a hard worker sometimes. Like you try and use that as a compliment. I think that can definitely go wrong. I'm a perfectionist. Yeah, I just do everything perfectly. That's, that's all you're saying. But if you can put it in terms of like you said, the. I have a hard time delegating sometimes or I occasionally try to work too fast and that might cause me to miss a few things. I think that what I also pick take away from this, Aaron, is when you can have that moment of honesty to say it's not necessarily my weakness, but this is a thing I'm working on as I think that is shows a lot of self awareness that that's what really employers are looking for.
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A
Yeah, they're really looking because I'll post an example and people will say, well, you shouldn't tell an employer that, you know, you're, you don't have a sense of humor, that you're too blunt. And I'm like, well that's kind of the point is that you tell them how you're working on it and how you're self aware and how you understand. And also you're not telling them a deal breaker. You know, don't tell them you're working on your sense of humor. If you're applying to be a comedy writer, you know, read the room.
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B
Yeah, I think that's a great point. And see I. So I have a law firm and we have about 15 people. And then I also. Most people don't know this, but I also have a restaurant and a coffee shop. Yeah, no way. And so, yeah, I've had it for I think six years now.
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A
Oh my gosh, how do you do this?
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But I don't know, Aaron, don't ask me. And you kids and I got kids and a wife and a family and everybody. And so yeah, the. I've hired a lot of people, that being said, and I've also had to let go many people. And often what I find so valuable for people that are wanting to get hired is when they admit kind of the rougher edges of their personality because I'd much rather than be honest with me up front. And then later on, then later on finding out, oh, they're not really who they said that they were. So if somebody can admit up front the thing that they're working on. So if it's working on slowing down my pace, I'm working on paying more attention to detail. I'm paying attention to, you know, how sometimes maybe I'm a little bit too blunt. Maybe I'm too direct. I think those are all things that are natural and normal. Okay, very cool. Well, now, it also informs me how to interact with you and how, you know, some people like to be. Need to be kind of coddled in a way. Like to have that, you need to kind of hold their hand. And some people, they need the. They need the tough love.
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A
Totally. Yeah. That's something else that I teach is just whenever you go into a job interview, you want to think of the desired result. So you want to think of what you want the recruiter to think. After you're done answering and you just named it. You want the recruiter to think, oh, yeah, I struggle with that too. That's fine. Like, that's what you want them to think. So you need to craft your answer in a way where, like, it's just something that they can say, oh, yeah, like that's. That's not a deal breaker. That's fine. They're working on it.
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B
Today's episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth. I like talking about them. I like having them as a sponsor because I wear their stuff. I am wearing Cozy Earth pants right now. It is raining cats and dogs outside, and these are athletic type pants that I really, really like. So if you know anybody who works in the office and you're always wanting to wear something on the go. Cozy Earth has clothes. It's really great for any kind of weather. I wear these to the office. I wear these at home, wherever it is. Cozyearth.com Jefferson use the coach Jefferson for 40% off. Cozyearth.com jefferson and use the code jefferson for 40% off. My only tip that I have that I like for interviews in my own arsenal is using confident. Instead of saying, I think that I'd be good or I believe I'd be good. And so I'm confident that I'd be good. Because then the interviewer is like, oh, well, then this person sounds confident. And then that's what they write right underneath your name and their notes.
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A
It's such a great tip. You know, instead of saying, well, I think I'd be good at this, I'm confident I'd be good at this. Just throwing the word confident in there. Beautiful tip. Perfect tip.
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B
Yeah, they're going to. It's funny how just using words naturally relates that. That value item to them. The. Here's another question that I'm very curious about. Specific. With your expertise in the workplace, how do you handle a passive aggressive person at work?
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A
Oh, that's really tough. You know, I think there's kind of two categories when it comes to passive aggressive people. There's one category where it's affecting you and your work and your ability to complete your duties and responsibilities. And then there's another category where they don't affect your work at all. It's just annoying. And so my overarching advice when dealing with anybody difficult at work is just to not take it personally. I think it's hard when you're at work and somebody's given you a little attitude to get all festered and flustered and get mad at them. But don't get mad. Just get curious, you know, think about how, like, why are they this way? Why are they so miserable? And you talk a lot about passive aggressiveness. I want to hear your answer as well. But when people are passive aggressive, it's because they lack an ability to communicate like an adult and professionally. And I think there are some instances where actually passive aggressive behavior or passive behavior is okay. Sometimes people might be trying to hint to you something. So something that I like to ask if you're not sure if somebody's being passive aggressive is, oh, did you mean that genuinely or were you trying to hint at something? Because you actually never know. Somebody might mean something really genuinely, but you're insecure about what's going on, so you're taking it in a passive aggressive way. Or they might be 100% just being a jerk and just being passive aggressive. So when you ask them, hey, did you mean that genuinely or were you trying to hint at something? Then they either have to confront, no, I meant that genuinely, or they have to say, no, I was actually hinting at something.
- [18:21]
B
I think passive aggressiveness may be one of the most frustrating things in the workplace, and we have a bad habit too, of reading it in somebody's email or their slack message or team's message or whatever. And what you just highlighted is exactly right. That these people. And by the way, when I say these people, it's me included, it's everybody. We, we all have these moments. Yeah, we all have these moments where I'll say something passively and I know it's passive aggressive. And in that moment, you know what, I don't really care. I'm just feeling passive aggressive. And it is nice to have people that don't take it personally. Like as somebody who's been passive aggressive, which we all have, I can see and I appreciate the people who do not take it personally. Instead, when you're able to ask, just like you said that, do you mean this genuinely? What I like to give is, should I read into that? So should I read into that? Should I read into that comment? Should I read into this? Or even asking them to say something around, getting them to explain more of what they, they met. Can you tell me more about that? They will find a way to kind of like get over the hump and hopefully be more direct with you. I find that it's people that naturally, their whole life, Aaron, have, have been pretty passive aggressive because they've seen that growing up. Most likely it's a, a family member, a mom, a dad or somebody who in their life has naturally shown them that to get what you want, somehow you need to be passive aggressive and hint at it and then resent people for not giving it to you because you feel like you deserve it in that moment. Passive aggressive comments certainly don't serve you. And they, they find ways to conflict and constrict communication when you need to get something done. When something's on a deadline, we've had these people say, come on, get it out. You know, if you got a problem, spit it out. I find that that makes it worse most of the time.
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A
Yeah. Because they're, they're defensive and they're insecure and that's how they're communing in a. Communicating in a passive aggressive manner. So if you fight fire with fire. Yeah. Typically doesn't work out.
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B
Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly right. When anytime that somebody's been, somebody's being passive aggressive and you say something like, hey, if you got something to say, spit it out. It just makes them backpedal even further. It's not gonna embrace them. It's not going to get them to open up in any way. But when you can say things like, like Chris Voss, who I've had on and who's a great friend, he has this phrase that I love and it sounds like you have a reason for saying that. Sounds like you have a reason for saying it. Seems that seems like there's a reason you'd say that.
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A
I'm a little scared right now. Thinking of Chris.
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B
Well, he's a scary guy. He's a scary guy. He is, yeah. And he has this accent that's like almost Mafia. Like, he's like, you sound like you've got a reason for saying that. Like, oh, my gosh.
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A
Hey, that was good.
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B
Yeah. Do you like that? Well, I spent five days in New York, so now I feel like I have a dual citizenship up in New York. But, you know, when you're getting. It's the using a question to find something out, I usually will ask, should I read into that? Should I, should I read into that comment?
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A
And I think tone with that is really important because it could be a little. Should I read into that? You know, but you want to ask genuinely.
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B
Yeah, Yeah. I think you're, I think you're spot on. And even the, what the, your suggestion of, did you mean that genuinely? Most people don't. They just will kind of start to explain more and more of. Of what they. They meant. What do you find, Aaron, and, and your work? You have over 6 million followers across your platform. What do you find most people come to you with when they say, Aaron, I'm struggling with X, y and Z.
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A
Two things. 100% of people who come to me, 99% come for two things. The first thing is interpersonal relationship dynamics. So they know what they feel and they know what they want to say. They just don't know how to say it. Hence why both of our accounts have been so popular is because people don't want to cause conflict and they don't want to say the wrong thing and they just want to be understood. And oftentimes, like you said, our childhood, the way we grew up, the way we saw communication styles, the way we learned how to communicate, it leads to an inability to be able to communicate properly as an adult. So learning the proper words can help us communicate better. So that's one thing is they just want to learn how do I tell my boss I'm quitting? I get a lot of people who are just really anxious. How do I tell my co worker that they're micromanaging me? How do I tell my boss that they're MIA and that's negatively affecting my work? Or how do I say that I'm burnt out? All of these things. And then the second thing that I see most common is validation. People know what they want to do, they think they know what they want to say, and they just need a little kick in the butt. I just need to scoot them, scoot them on. And I do a lot of that. I say, you know what? You sound like you know what you're doing. You sound like you know what you want to do, and I think you should just go do it. So those are pretty much the two things.
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B
Oh, those are awesome. One that caught my attention and one question I've answered in emails from people specifically is the. How do I tell my boss that I'm leaving? How do I tell my boss that I'm leaving? So I'm going to ask, I'll ask you that, Aaron. How do you tell your boss or supervisor that you're leaving your job?
- [23:59]
A
Yeah, how to quit your job. You know something that's so interesting with quitting your job is that it's both extremely professional and kind of personal. We spend most of our waking hours at work. You know, I always say, unless you're a trust fund baby or a sugar baby or I guess a regular baby, you're going to spend most of your, most of your waking hours at work. And so work is very personal. Despite, you know, us trying to separate them. It is your life. Life is linear. So I always remind people that when you're quitting a job, it's a transactional relationship. They hired you to do a job, you did a job and they paid you, and now you're moving on to a new job, and that's it. Now, if you liked your boss a lot or if you liked your boss just a normal amount, they were a normal boss. Don't be afraid to tell them that. Be appreciative, have some gratitude. But if maybe you didn't like your boss, you didn't like the work environment, I would still encourage you to leave the job with grace and professionalism. It can feel good in the moment to stick it to the man and tell them how you feel and get all angry and flustered. But honestly, it's a waste of your energy. And a year from now, you're going to feel really regretful that you did that because the world is actually much smaller than people realize. And you come across people, you think that your boss just stayed at that job and you can curse them out and leave, but unbeknownst to you, they're your new client at your new company. So you just have no idea. You want to have good karma. You want to leave things in good standing, and that's to your benefit. A lot of the times when I tell people and I encourage them to leave with grace and professionalism, they're like, well, they deserve, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, this isn't about them. This is actually just about you and your mental health. I highly encourage you if you are leaving an environment which stirs up a lot of anger in you or feelings, go get it out. Write that glass door review. Do that exit interview. Go to a kickboxing class. Get out your feelings. But that conversation when you're leaving should be done with grace. It should be quick. You should arrange it on the calendar. You know, Friday afternoon is usually when most people do it. And remember, it's not personal. It's just professional. Your boss, you are not the first person to quit. You're not the last person that will. They'll have quit on them. But again, if you had a good working relationship with your Ross, tell them, you know, I really appreciated working with you. The only thing I'll accept, you know, is an open door if I ever come crawling back to you. And I hope that we cross paths again in the future. You know, you never know.
- [26:27]
B
I think that's a great technique. So let's. I want to put this in a box for us, for the listener right now. Anybody who've. You were thinking right now that you need to leave your job. You've been thinking about it. You want to go on to something else. Let's talk about how to. To do that. Number one, what I'm hearing from Aaron is you make time for it. It's not a spur of the moment conversation. It's not something that you just want to do on a whim. You actually want to set aside specific time, meaning you're going to ask that supervisor or whoever, hey, I'd like to have some talk time with you. I'd like to visit with you for about five to ten minutes or so on X date. I got that right, Aaron?
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A
Yep.
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B
Awesome. So number two, what I'm hearing is when you need to speak with them, you don't want to do it in terms of saying, well, I'm just going to blow this place up. I'm going to flip tables. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to make sure they remember me. Even if they are, it's a horrible, toxic environment. What I pull from you, Aaron, is you never want to give them a reason to say, this is why we let her go, because of this. In other words, you want to leave with your head high rather than coming out of it. And let's say you just ran them upside one side and down the other. You want to do it from a position of always maintaining your integrity. Are we good there?
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A
Yeah. And your dignity yeah, yeah, I think.
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B
Because at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's yours. I love what you said. It's not about them and what they've done. It's about you and where you're going.
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A
Exactly.
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B
Three. What I, I'm pulling away is that whenever you speak to this person, you want to make sure that instead of just focusing specifically on I am leaving this job, this, this position, this very micro moment, you need to discuss it with them in terms of a bigger macro element of this is where I'm going in my career. So when you can use words like career or journey or my path or this is my trajectory, then they feel less like this is one little moment. But they are now helping you along that path. And then they're be much more open to do saying, hey, great job. They can encourage you, hey, I know you're going to have a great career. I have a lot more going on rather than you just focusing on, hey, I'm quitting this job by. And then they're out. I think it's, I think that's going to be really helpful for a lot of people, Aaron.
- [29:03]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. We think that it's just a door that we're shutting, but really it's, it's not the. Your career is fluid. You never know where you're going to go. A lot of times people go back to their old job, you know, a few years later. So, yeah, just keep that door open and like you said, you know, bring them on as an ally so that they can encourage you to move on to your next, the next part of your journey.
- [29:24]
B
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I never feel like even when people have wronged me, if I can leave that relationship or leave that place, even with just, just waving at it in the rearview mirror like that, just, it's, it's, it's gone onto the next thing.
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A
See you the next.
- [29:42]
B
It's going to be much better for you and your own mental health. And that's exactly what Aaron's point, point is here. It's not about what all they've done and you need to have your sense of justice and you need to get revenge on them and just let it all out. You can let it out, but do it on your own terms. It's not. You releasing it all to them is not going to do any good. Not going to do any good. You're already leaving. So instead, don't give them a reason for why they go, yeah, you know what? We don't really like Aaron, she. I mean, she was a jerk because you just justified that and how I ended that with them. Instead, it's. It's about you and how you're going to leave that. I think that's. I think that's a wonderful piece of advice for anybody wanting to get out of where they're going and where they want to be in the workplace. Aaron, thank you very much for that.
- [30:29]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [30:31]
B
When you feel like people are specifically supervisors, like you're asking for a raise or you're asking for something that you want from a supervisor, what's the best way to handle that?
- [30:43]
A
Oh, I love this question, especially since a lot of my advice is for people being managed. And I'd love to give more advice for managers. Typically when I post those videos, you know, there's less managers than people being managed. So, anyway, the comments always get interesting, but anytime you're going to a supervisor or manager, somebody senior to you, I want you to imagine that you're them. We see these people as, oh, well, they're above us. They have it all figured out. They have more control than me. This is a weird power dynamic. But at the end of the day, they probably have a boss, too. Who has a boss too, who has a boss, too. And they have dirty laundry at home. They have to call their grandma. They're stressed out about paying off their student loans. They're looking for a new job. They're probably also looking for a raise. They're just a person at the end of the day. So anytime that somebody comes to me and they're like, hey, I want to go to my manager and talk to them about this, I always tell them, imagine that you were that manager and, you know, somebody that you manage was coming to you and asking you that question. How would you want them to ask you that question when you have a million other things going on? And yes, it's their job to supervise or manage you. So, you know, don't get it twisted. That's part of their job. But they have a lot going on, you know, and so how can you present this in a way where it's not a battle, it's not, you know, give me this vacation or I quit, but rather, how can we work together, you know, to coordinate schedules? Because at the end of the day, like managers, it is a stressful job, especially middle managers, when you have to report to your boss above you and then cater to people underneath you, it's a very thankless job. So I always encourage people just try to step in Their shoes. Think about everything they have going on and how you can make this an easy yes for them. Get to yes. You know, that desired outcome is them saying, yeah, you could take that extra vacation day. That's no problem. How can you get them to say that? So think about it backwards.
- [32:33]
B
That's so good. I love that. And, you know, from my world, I preach that the person you see isn't the person you're talking to. And that goes for your managers. Most managers are just employees that have just been advanced. I mean, and that's all really anybody is, unless they're the founder of the company in some way. They're you. And so you go, okay, how do I. How do I handle that? It's so funny how all of a sudden, when you become a manager, people's brains kind of get rewired where it's now an us against them. Like, I remember coming up in my law firm, the first one I was at, big defense firm. You're an associate as you start, and then you become a partner. And when you're an associate, you're like, oh, the partners never do this. The partners never do that. And you just have, like, this collective. The partners don't understand me. And then all of a sudden, when you become a partner, you're like, oh, these associates. Can they just stop whining? Like you just like it's. It happens like, overnight. You're all of a sudden like, oh, these. These associates, Jesus. And you start it. Does this mindset shift that's so easy to do. And the same play, same thing happens where. Wherever you're at. I love the idea of remembering they're just people. And a tip that I like to. To give people that are dealing with ones that are above them is this idea of when you ask them questions, if you want a raise or whatever it is, you become almost a student to them. So if you can make them feel like a teacher by asking questions of, so how. How did you get to your position? Or what's the best way you think for me to. If I'm interested in a raise, what would. What would you do if you were in my shoes? So when you can try and, like, put them in a position and make them feel good of, you know, I see where you're. You're at, and I'd love to be where you're at, you know, sooner than later, how did you get to where you are? And you kind of get them to tell their story of what they did and how they did it and when they did it. They'll be much more receptive to having. You'll get more nuggets out of them instead of like just asking them, hey, so I like a raise. Can you give me a raise? Yeah, when am I going to give a raise? Because all they're hearing is, oh, you're just. You just want stuff. You just want stuff. Oh, you're just, oh, you're threatening me in a sense of, oh, if you don't get a raise, you're gone. So I can see. Talk about the downside real quick of when somebody comes out of the gate almost too strong and they're saying, if they just come right in and say, aaron, I want to raise, what does it go through the employer's mind?
- [35:12]
A
Yeah. So what you're doing when you come out of the gate strong, like you said, is you're putting a lot of work and load on them. Because your manager, if you work in a corporate structure, is probably not the one that actually has to greenlight that raise. They have to go to their boss, who has to go to finance, who has to go to hr. And it's a lot of people who have to say yes. So that's why it's important. Yeah, that's why it's important to not. And it's always, you know, I always talk about how there's a difference when you're negotiating with the person who has the power to say yes and the person you're talking to, and they're oftentimes two different people. So if you're talking to your manager, like you said, enroll them in the conversation and say, hey, look, I did my market research and, you know, other social media coordinators out there are getting paid $10,000 more than me to do, like, less than me. So I'm just being frank with you here. I really like working here, but we need to do something to adjust my compensation because I'd really like to stay here, but this is not sustainable for me. And so you enroll them, because now they're thinking their manager brain clicks on, and they're like, must retain good employee. And so they can take that to their boss and they can say, look, Erin's thinking about quitting if we don't give her a 10k bump. And so I want to retain her because she's really productive and she's a great value add to the company. And then they can go to finance and advocate for you. So you have to give them a case to advocate on your behalf to somebody else. And you can't just Say, hey, give me a raise. Because they're thinking, I can't control that. I got to go talk to Dave, and he's got to talk to Karen, and they got to talk to all these people, you know, so just working with them and making it a collaboration.
- [36:42]
B
Yeah, I think that's spot on. So often they're not the one that can do it, but you want them on your side. You want to turn them into an advocate for you. One little tweak that I. Because I'm weird. You know, I'm weird about communication. Aaron, she knows this.
- [36:58]
A
Yeah.
- [36:59]
B
So when you say something like, you know, I love working here, but I'm not going to be able to continue on at the salary that I'm at. What my brain automatically does is. So how I would tweak that is instead of the. But would change it to. And I also.
- [37:16]
A
And yeah, yeah.
- [37:18]
B
Which. Which anybody can use for any of these conversations. And I. I think. And Aaron already knows this because you're. You're brilliant with these tips. So if it's. I love working here. And. And I also know that the Radom app is not sustainable. Like, that right there is. It's super confident. It's softer, but it's also super confident. I feel like when you. When you're able to say. And I. And I also know.
- [37:46]
A
Yeah.
- [37:47]
B
Just. I have that knowledge within myself of knowing that this ain't gonna be it. And I. I can also know as someone who is an employer and has been on every side of it, whenever you feel like somebody's giving you an ultimatum, like, you give a raise or they're leaving, nobody likes that decision. Like, it's. It.
- [38:05]
A
Yeah. It's a bad taste in your mouth for sure.
- [38:07]
B
Yeah. How have you. Have you seen that backfire with anybody?
- [38:11]
A
Yeah. So I'm like you, where I have just played both sides of the coin so much. Being a business, I worked as a director, so I had to hire people all the time, let go of people. And then as a freelancer, I've had to get hired. I've been hired by over 25 companies. And so I've truly just been on both sides of this equation so many times. And, yeah, ultimatums just typically don't work in general. I think anybody listening to this might say, oh, there's an exception for my cousin who works in tech. It's like, yeah, there's exceptions for everything me and Jefferson say. Everything that comes out of our mouth, there's an exception for it. You gotta give disclaimers for every Little thing. But yeah, I think just typically strong arming people is like a last resort and it should not be. You should always go into things more softly because you want to help people bring down their defenses. Whenever you're having a communication that's literally what Jefferson's entire book is about is how to get people to de escalate and to get softer and then you can have a real conversation.
- [39:11]
B
The way when people try and push which I I support and you do too of stating your needs of what you want. I want a raise. That's wonderful. I love that you're able to voice that. When you push it on somebody of I need a raise or I'm gone. They will do it. They'll do either one of two things. They're going to refuse it because of the way you asked right there. Because then they're going to start to automatically they're going to put you as a we're us and you're now over there. You're not part of us anymore. You don't want to be part of the team or two. They're going to do it and agree to it and acquiesce because you put them in a position that's very difficult and they're going to resent that they said yes because it's funny how and I know you and I've spoken about this how when you're the employee the employer never pays enough money. You can never get enough. Which is not necessarily true. But you get the sentiment.
- [40:15]
A
Yeah.
- [40:15]
B
Versus on the other side when they're. You're the employer. You feel like you're already paying too much because now you're thinking of I have to, I have to afford the business. It's not just the employee. I have all the taxes I have to pay for all the good soul I have to pay. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah. If you offer benefits, if you, I mean if not to mention you're going to have all the different sales tax. You have your employer like everything that goes into it. And you're thinking I have to think of this whole entire world and this person only is just wanting another dollar. But they don't understand. They think that they're only asking for a dollar raise. They don't understand the implications on blah blah blah.
- [40:51]
A
They're thinking about a million things.
- [40:53]
B
Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with either side. Nothing at all. I, I absolutely and I know you believe the same. They everybody should be paid a a wage that is reasonable to them and an honest wage that reflects the work that they do and the value they bring. That's what good businesses do and that's what good leaders do. But it's funny how we have such a way of flip flop and depending on what side of the, the table we're sitting on, especially communicating that.
- [41:23]
A
Yeah. And it's funny because I tell people like, the second you become a manager, the second you own your own business, it will click. You will understand why you asking for your raise that way didn't work because now you're on the other side of the table and you got a million things going on and you understand that it's not just that easy for you to, okay, I'll go in, you know, and change your salary right now. It's, it's a whole, sometimes it's a whole operation and sometimes it's not. You know, sometimes I see a lot of companies giving people a really hard time who are very much being underpaid. So I really, really advocate for people to advocate for themselves.
- [41:55]
B
I think that's wonderful. And that's what you do. I mean, that's, that's why you have the following that you have and that's why we're friends. For anybody listening, they, she and I kind of came up together at the same time. You and your workplace world, me and my communication world. And it's just been awesome, Aaron, to see what you do and the people that you help. So if you haven't, I want you to go follow Erin McGough. She has incredible content for workplace and career advice and it's just a pleasure to have you on. Aaron, thank you so much for spending some time with me.
- [42:30]
A
It has been amazing to see your growth and it's so well deserved. You deserve everything that you're getting. The book deal, the tv, the podcast. I'm just so happy for you because your advice is so amazing and I see it impact people who I know. So you're doing great and I'm so glad that you, you picked up your phone in your car and made that first video.
- [42:49]
B
Thanks, Erin. I appreciate it. Thanks for coming.
- [42:52]
A
Thank you so much for having me.