How to Speak Up with Confidence ft. Tori Kelly

Summary

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The Jefferson Fisher Podcast

Episode: How to Speak Up with Confidence ft. Tori Kelly

Date: July 24, 2026
Host: Jefferson Fisher
Guest: Tori Kelly

Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and practical episode, Jefferson Fisher sits down with Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter Tori Kelly to unpack what it means to speak up with confidence—especially for those who identify as shy, reserved, or often feel their voice isn’t valued. The conversation delves into the journey of self-worth, overcoming mental blocks, communicating authentically (on and off stage), and nurturing strong, open relationships both personally and professionally. Tori shares actionable insights for building confidence, navigating self-doubt, channeling shyness as a strength, and handling communication in marriage and family life.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Building Self-Worth and Finding Your Voice

• Tori’s Early Experiences:

  • Tori discusses being signed to a record label at age 11/12 and her struggles to separate self-worth from applause and external approval.
  • “[Growing up] I did feel really protected... But I always felt like I was kind of one foot in, one foot out, like I’d get signed, didn’t work out. Go back to the drawing board, go in my room, be sad, write some songs—which was how I discovered songwriting.” (02:00)

• Faith as Foundation:

  • "Even if I don't have music and all of this stuff goes away, I'm still a child of God. ... I don't have to rely on other people to get any sort of worth because I already know where that comes from. And then anything on top of that is just bonus." (04:30)

• Advice for Younger Listeners:

  • “You don't have to figure out who you are right now. There's no rush… Just… slow down. You don't have to have all the answers. Don't put your self-worth in the hands of other people.” (05:52)

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2. Owning Shyness & Authenticity

• On Embracing Her Personality:

  • “[I] compared myself to other people so much ... I was so shy and reserved ... I thought there was something wrong with me. So I tried to change myself. And then it’s not authentic.” (07:19)
  • Tori credits her later confidence to simply accepting her nature: “Now I’ve just leaned into it—okay, this is who I am.” (08:11)

• Stage vs. Real Life:

  • Even as a stadium performer, Tori remains reserved offstage. Performing is like “a high…it can be a drug,” but after shows, she craves quiet and has built routines (like vocal cool-downs) to decompress. (08:42-12:27)

• Relating to Her Animated Role (“Sing”):

  • “Literally me to a T. As a kid, I never got that shy where I knocked over a microphone… But I relate so, so hard to Mina.” (13:33)

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3. Harnessing Shyness & Communication Strategies

• Value in Being Reserved:
  • Tori encourages shy people to find an outlet—her's is songwriting:
    “People who are very shy, very introverted… don’t count them out on having some of the most, like, deepest, thought-provoking words… My superpower is in my songwriting.” (17:12, 17:47)
  • She describes herself as a “slow processor” and notes the power in writing thoughts down ahead of conversations for clarity. (18:35-19:34)

Practical Routine for Confidence

Jefferson & Tori’s 4-Step Process for Speaking Up: (33:03-48:47)

• 1. Recognize
  • Acknowledge when you’re holding back in a conversation (“self-awareness”).
• 2. Mindset Shift
  • Realize “you deserve to be in the room”—everyone is equal, and nobody has all the answers.
  • “One of the most powerful phrases is just ‘I don’t know.’” (34:55)
• 3. Start Small
  • Make a small comment or ask a question, even if it’s just one sentence.
  • “Did I survive? Oh, okay. The fear that I had ... actually, yeah. They do care.” (36:29)
• 4. Lean Into Curiosity
  • Ask questions, even lighthearted icebreakers (“What’s your hot take?” or “Tell me more”).
  • “Sometimes it’s just being curious... That opens the door to be a part of it.” (38:45-40:16)

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4. Navigating People-Pleasing & Boundaries

• Outgrowing People-Pleasing:

  • Tori: “I definitely used to care more about what people thought… stepping into motherhood and really not caring what people think.” (23:56-25:18)
  • Turning 30 marked a shift: “I felt more sure of who I was. … I'm not gonna try and fit in this box for anybody.” (25:18)

• Learning to Be a Good Listener:

  • “I did learn to become a good listener that way, which I think is very important. There's this balance of being a good listener, but also having to remove that lie that you don't have anything to offer." (31:25)

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5. Real-World Communication: Marriage & Conflict

• Tori & Andre’s Partnership:
  • Married for 8 years, together for 11. Tori credits her husband Andre as a great communicator who’s helped her grow. (50:04-51:21)
• Handling Conflict:
  • Different family backgrounds led to different conflict-styles. Tori feared conflict at first, but came to value “leaning in” to arguments as signs of care versus complacency.
    • “I’m not obviously loving conflict, but I’d much rather argue and get through to the other side, because it shows we care.” (52:29-53:17)
  • Their 'rain check' system: If frustrated, they mutually agree to pause (“rain check”) and revisit the discussion later, always affirming: “We’re gonna be okay. I love you.” (54:47-55:31)
• Daily Check-Ins & Deeper Connection:
  • Jefferson describes daily “check-ins” and “checkouts” with his wife to build connection beyond schedules, prompting Tori to consider adopting the practice.
    • “If you only talk about schedule, you really talk about nothing… you got to get to the emotion.” (60:08)

Favorite Check-In Question

“How’s your heart?” — Tori credits her friend Naomi with this check-in question to reach beyond the surface.
(61:22)

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6. Icebreakers, Red Flags, and Reading the Room

• Fun Icebreakers:
  • “What’s your hot take?” (41:03)
  • “Three loves and three hates” or “Show your last Amazon orders.” (45:05-45:32)
• Red Flags in Group Settings:
  • Tori’s main professional red flag: The “know-it-all” personality—someone unwilling to admit they don’t have all the answers, especially in creative fields. (63:41-65:18)
• Reading the Room:
  • Matching or balancing energy depending on the personalities present and leaning on curiosity and open questions to spark engagement. (47:32-47:57)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On self-worth:

  “Don’t loan out your self-worth. Don’t put it in somebody else’s hands.”
  — Jefferson (07:13)

• On being shy:

  “I am [shy]. I feel like a lot of people who are on these big stages… are actually more reserved behind.”
  — Tori (08:24)

• On songwriting as expression:

  “Sometimes I can’t even put it into words—but I can sing it for you.”
  — Tori (17:47)

• On coping with social situations:

  “Writing things out has really helped me… letter form, and that already helps me… gets my wheels turning.”
  — Tori (19:34)

• On curiosity as a superpower:

  “Asking questions, even if I don’t have anything to say, just being a curious person has unlocked so much for me.”
  — Tori (38:45)

• On family communication:

  “[With Andre]… If there’s an argument bubbling, we’ll say, ‘okay, want to rain check this?’… It’s acknowledging: we’re not sweeping this under the rug, but now’s not the time.”
  — Tori (54:46)

• On relationships:

  “You don’t get to know the person you say you love by just talking about the schedule.”
  — Jefferson (61:02)

• Favorite check-in:

  “My friend texts me, ‘How’s your heart?’…It kind of forces you to get to the emotion, what’s really underneath.”
  — Tori (61:28)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:30 | Tori’s struggle with self-worth and early industry experiences | | 02:00 | Discovery of songwriting, link to self-expression | | 04:30 | The stabilizing role of faith in identity | | 05:52 | Advice for young listeners on self-worth | | 08:11 | Accepting shyness as authentic self | | 13:33 | Relating to Mina in Sing | | 17:12–20:15| Channeling shyness & writing as communication | | 33:03–48:47| Step-by-step process for gaining confidence to speak up | | 50:04–53:17| Navigating marriage, communication, and healthy conflict | | 54:46 | “Rain checks” in arguments | | 60:08–61:28| The importance of daily check-ins and asking “How’s your heart?”|

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Episode Takeaways: How to Speak Up With Confidence

• Self-worth is internal, not dependent on other people’s reactions or validation.
• Accept and honor personality traits (like shyness) as strengths, not weaknesses.
• Prepare and clarify thoughts ahead of time; written outlets can aid communication.
• Start building confidence with small steps—contribute even brief comments or questions.
• Lean into curiosity—ask questions, even lighthearted ones, to become part of conversations.
• In relationships: prioritize emotional check-ins and transparent conflict resolution.
• Know your boundaries and don’t be afraid to walk away from ‘know-it-all’ or inauthentic environments.

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For listeners, this episode offers validation, practical guidance, and relatable encouragement for anyone looking to find their voice, speak up with confidence, and foster more authentic, meaningful communication—whether at the dinner table, the boardroom, or center stage.

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Transcript

[Host/Announcer]

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[Jefferson]

Here I am at the table and I know I have something to say.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

But I'm dealing with that mental block now. They know better than me. I probably shouldn't say anything. I'm just going to be quiet.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

How Tori, how did you get over that?

[Tori Kelly]

Remove that lie that I've told myself a lot of my life, which is you don't have anything to offer the conversation. People just know you as a singer. So just sing your little songs. I think I grew up feeling like my opinion didn't matter. I think I've had to unlearn that you do have something to say. You can offer something to the conversation.

[Jefferson]

When it comes to self worth, what have you learned now that about your self worth that you didn't know before?

[Tori Kelly]

I think I, I've, I've definitely struggled with self worth. I would say I've been an artist for most, most of my life and a singer most of my life. And I think me as a person and me as an artist. A lot of times it was hard to separate that, especially growing up because, you know, if I'm singing for people and I'm getting applause and you know, getting a reaction, I'm like, oh cool, I'm worth something to them.

[Jefferson]

And you were signed really early.

[Tori Kelly]

I was signed when I was 12.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Technically 11. Actually. Like 11, 12. I was in the industry before.

[Jefferson]

You really know who you are as a person.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Like at all. Literal child. So, yeah, looking back is, it's insane. But I, I did, I did feel really protected. I mean I had my, my parents right there with me. So you know, I was, I felt, Yeah, I feel like I, I didn't have any crazy experiences as, as a kid in the industry. I just always felt like I was kind of one foot in, one foot out, like I'd get signed, didn't work out. You know, go, go back to the drawing board. Go in my room. Be sad. Write some songs, which was, I mean, that's how I discovered songwriting. It's like, oh, I have stuff to say, an outlet. So, yeah, I think when it comes to self worth, it was, yeah, it was hard for me to separate the approval and applause and like, the praise from, that I would get from people, from this gift that I have, you know, I would, that was my self worth. And then I think as I got older and, you know, started to have more doors closed, like, things just wouldn't work out. Labels just didn't really know what to do with me. That really sucked because then I'm like, oh, now I don't have self worth, you know, or what am, you know, what, who, who even am I if I don't have this praise from other people or if I'm not singing, you know, who am I? So I, I definitely struggled with that. I think that's where my faith really came into play because, you know, I grew up going to church, grew up learning about Jesus. And I think it was somewhere around high school where I, I, I would say before high school, I still had a very real, pure relationship with God, but then became, you know, way more personal around high school. And I think that's where that, that's really the only other place I knew to turn to get any sort of worth, you know, and, and reading like, oh, I'm. Even if I don't have music and all of this stuff goes away, I'm still a child of God. I'm still like, this is where I get my identity from. So I think that was, that started to shape really, like, the foundation of who I was. And I've always just kept coming back to that. So when something, you know, doesn't go the way that I want or it's just so freeing to be like, okay, I don't actually have to rely on other people, you know, to get any sort of worth because I already know where that comes from. And then anything on top of that is just bonus, bonus. Yeah, it's like, okay, cool, I'm glad you like my art, but that's, I'm not gonna time myself. Exactly. I'm not, I'm not gonna, like, rely on that to, you know, make myself feel better or nowadays it's, you know, social media too. It's like, I'm not gonna, I don't need these comments. And whether bad or good, I'm not gonna let that affect, you know, who I am at, at my core. It's definitely hard still, since I wrestle with it for sure But I think having that as my real foundation has been like an absolute game changer.

[Jefferson]

I want us to imagine that there's a 11 or 12 year old girl who's listening. What would you tell her that you want her to know?

[Tori Kelly]

Mm.

[Jefferson]

About her self worth?

[Tori Kelly]

I think I would wanna say if I'm picturing, picturing myself at that age, I think I'd wanna say you don't have to figure out who you are right now. Like there's, you have time, there's no, there's no rush. I remember feeling like I, I don't

[Host/Announcer]

know who I am.

[Tori Kelly]

I need to, you know, and then you start grabbing for things. I would say just, yeah, take a breath, slow down. You don't have to, you don't have to have all the answers. You won't, you will never have all the answers. And then, and then, yeah, kind of what I was saying, you know, just, just a second ago of, of speaking from experience, like, don't, don't put your self worth in the hands of other people. You know, make sure that comes from, from within. Have, have some, some kind of something you can really hold on to, you know, and for me that's always been Jesus. It's always been my faith. But yeah, I think, I think ultimately not letting other people determine that for you, I think is, is important.

[Jefferson]

I like that. Don't, don't loan out your self worth. Yeah, don't, don't put it in somebody else's hands. Yeah, I think.

[Tori Kelly]

But at the same time you don't. Because I think when I, when I hear that, I'm like, okay, well if it's not coming from other people, I got to figure out, you know, who I am. What's my even personality wise? Like? I just, I didn't know. You know, I was comparing myself to other people so much too as a kid. You know, that artist over there, they're these like, you know, giggly Disney kids with these big personalities. I'm like, I gotta somehow be that. Because I was so shy and reserved and, you know, instead of just owning that and being okay with that, I thought that there was something wrong with me. So I tried to change myself. And then it's not authentic. And yeah, so it's, it took me some time to, you know, be okay with just who I am.

[Jefferson]

Would you say that you're still a little bit shy and reserved?

[Tori Kelly]

For sure. Yeah. But the difference now is that I've just, I've just leaned into it and like, okay, this is, this is who I Am.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. So that's. That's what people need to know. Tori Kelly is a very shy person.

[Tori Kelly]

I am. I feel like a lot of people who are on these big stages, they actually are more reserved behind.

[Jefferson]

How do you do that? How do you switch that from. Because we'll be at the show tonight. I mean, going from thousands of people to maybe just having a harder time when it's just you and 12 people in the room. Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

I don't know what it is. I think maybe when I'm up there, I just. I kind of. I kind of zone out. I just. I feel like my, you know, my voice takes over. The words that I'm singing take over. And I'm kind of transported into this other place, I think. And then, you know, being on stage all the time and touring all the time, it is. It can be very overstimulating to it. I mean, it's like a high. It's. It can be a drug. People get addicted to it. Right. And so the. The af. What you do afterwards I think is important. I think I actually crave the quiet now because I'm constantly, you know, in front of people and like just in performer mode. So I think having, you know, even. Even immediately after the show, I'll tell my team, like, hey, I just need like 10 minutes decompress. I do my cool down, my vocal cooldowns and kind of like come back to earth and then I'm. Then I'm ready to, you know, be back in real life.

[Jefferson]

Well, first I'm gonna. I can't let this go.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

I've never heard of a vocal cool down.

[Tori Kelly]

Oh, yeah. It's just as important as the warm ups.

[Jefferson]

Tell me what that is.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. So do you know warming up your voice, I'm sure you've heard of. Right?

[Jefferson]

No, I know, like, yeah, you don't want me to.

[Tori Kelly]

Like a popular one is like,

[Host/Announcer]

like,

[Tori Kelly]

like that kind of like loosens warming yourself up, your voice. Yeah. So warm up before the show. It's hard to do if you like this. Actually, it helps. And you can't smile.

[Jefferson]

Oh, no, I'm smiling. Dory. I can't.

[Tori Kelly]

It's like really relaxed. Yeah, There you go. It's really actually good for.

[Jefferson]

I'm ready to perform.

[Tori Kelly]

You can. You can probably warm up before.

[Jefferson]

There you go.

[Tori Kelly]

For your podcast. I feel like talking actually tires me out more than singing. Funny.

[Jefferson]

Oh, we'll say less words then. Okay.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, yeah, I'm done now.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah. This is a wrap.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Okay. So let's cool Down.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. So cooling down. So when I'm doing the show, my voice is kind of like. I mean, I'm hitting high notes.

[Jefferson]

It's.

[Tori Kelly]

It's sort of. It stays up here for pretty much the whole show. And then, you know, everything's elevated. And so if I were to get off stage and just keep talking and I'm like, you know, talking louder without realizing it. Cause I'm still in that heightened place. So if I just continue my night like that and I'm like, hey, thank you so much. I'm talking to everybody backstage. Then my voice is. That actually does more harm to my voice than even being on stage. It's like, what you do after is so important. So I'll kind of hide in my green room for a second and I'll. It's literally the opposite of, you know, if I'm warming up and I'm going oo. The cool down would be. And I'm kind of getting my voice back to.

[Jefferson]

That's awesome.

[Tori Kelly]

Back to, like, speaking level, you know, and so it'd be like, like. Or like just everything is down and getting it, you know, back to just relax. Don't overdo it. A lot of it's mental too.

[Jefferson]

So if they're listening, like, to the green room door, it's just you doing the.

[Tori Kelly]

They're probably all. Yeah, they're all used to it by now. Like, oh, Tori's doing here doing her cool.

[Jefferson]

How long do you do?

[Tori Kelly]

Doesn't. It doesn't take. I mean, I'll actually continue to do it throughout the night, even if I'm. If I'm feeling a little funky. But I mean, just a couple minutes even sometimes is all I need. Yeah. And then I end up. I have, like, my tour talking voice. So even. Even right now, I feel like I'm subconsciously kind of talking lighter.

[Jefferson]

Light and airy.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Light and airy, you know?

[Jefferson]

So this is not. Is this your, like, this is. This is conversational interview.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Tori. Okay, I got it.

[Tori Kelly]

But it's also on tour. Tori. On. On Tori.

[Jefferson]

Then what's like version nor.

[Tori Kelly]

I feel like my normal. Yeah. At home. If I'm not thinking about singing. It's like a little more like this. It's a little, you know.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Thicker.

[Host/Announcer]

Lower.

[Tori Kelly]

More.

[Jefferson]

Ready to go? Yeah, gotcha.

[Tori Kelly]

Ready to go.

[Jefferson]

Might beat you up.

[Tori Kelly]

I. I think I have a lower speaking voice than I realize. And then I have to, like, remember you're trying to protect your vocals, so.

[Jefferson]

Okay. Got it. Well, yeah, for sure. That's a. That's a big part of it. Also, the way you just described the shyness makes me think. And this question's really for my kids.

[Tori Kelly]

Oh, yeah, I know where this is going.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah. Is it? Yes. From Sing the movie.

[Host/Announcer]

Sing.

[Jefferson]

Is that really your, like, character to relate to? You go like, literally me so shy. Yeah. And then she starts singing, the voice comes out and everything gets lost.

[Tori Kelly]

Literally me to a T. As a kid, I mean, I never got that shy where I, like, knocked over a microphone or anything. But I relate so, so hard to Mina when they. When they approached me to. To do that role. I auditioned and everything, and I just couldn't get over how perfect it was. Just a dream role.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

It's like this is literally my life. So. Yeah, I still. I still can't get over just. Yeah. The fact that I'm Mina the elephant. Like, little Tori would be freaking out. Oh, no, I was. I had never done voice acting before, so I was inevitably a little nervous going into it. I, you know, I could do all the songs. That was just a different level.

[Jefferson]

I mean, but you're an artist, you know, so it's just. It's like painting on a different canvas.

[Tori Kelly]

Exactly. But I still was like, I don't know what to expect. You know, the director's in the room with me, so it's, you know, it's a. It's big movie production. So I get in there. But then I quickly realize any nervous energy that I have, I could just channel into this character who's already. She's supposed to be shy and nervous. So it. It really was pretty funny how that all worked out.

[Jefferson]

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[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. I love it.

[Jefferson]

Of somebody who's shy.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And reserved. Because the, the people I get to help Tori all the time are people who struggle or want to improve in the way they communicate with people. And what I find so beautiful about it is everybody has a different style of voice.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

But the message is always something that could just blow you away. And I find that people who are very shy, very introverted, like, don't count them out on having some of the most, like, deepest thought provoking words. If you were to talk to somebody who's super shy, what kind of advice would you give them to say this is something worth valuing?

[Tori Kelly]

Like being shy is something worth valuing. Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Not, not to be anything different than who you are?

[Tori Kelly]

I, I would say I do think it's important to have some kind of outlet. I think songwriting for me has, has been that. Because like you said, I think people who are more shy and more reserved, I think we might have a harder time in the moment saying the, the deep thing that we're trying to think of. I, I, I still, I don't think I'm the best at, you know, on the spot, like just having the best

[Jefferson]

thinking on your feet.

[Tori Kelly]

Words all the time. Yeah. But I think my superpower is in my songwriting. I feel like I can really get an emotion across. I can, I can make people feel things that maybe they haven't felt before. I can help people put, you know. Yeah. Describe a feeling that they've been trying to describe, but they can't. So. And sometimes I, I can't even put into words. But I can sing it for you. You know, I can sing it in a song. So I. I feel like lately, too, I've been writing things out. Helps me a lot too, because I'm a very slow processor, and I don't know if that goes hand in hand with. I don't know if all reserved, shy people are also slow process.

[Jefferson]

I'm a very slow processor.

[Tori Kelly]

Okay. Would you say you're shy slash reserved? No. Okay.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. But I am a slower processor.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. So I have. So I have all. All three, then.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Shy, reserved. So slow.

[Jefferson]

Amazing voice. Got it. It balances. It really does balances out.

[Host/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

But. But yeah, writing things out has really helped me, even. Honestly, like, even before. I don't know if this is even advice anymore. I'm just more speaking experience, but we're just talking my. Even when I'm about to have some kind of phone call or I know I'm going to, you know, or I need to talk to somebody about something, I'll write it out and, like, letter form, and that already just helps me. I'll just write it out and then I don't have to look at it again. And it just kind of, you know, gets my. My wheels turning and makes me feel a little more confident.

[Jefferson]

So you write. Write out what you're going to say ahead of time.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Even if I don't end up saying it, it just. It helps me streamline my thoughts because I think I just have so much going on up here at all times. And the, you know, the overthinker in me wants to be like, okay, well, you can't say that because then, you know, that'll lead to this, or someone will think this. And there's just. It's all. It's all nonsense.

[Jefferson]

But I share this belief, like you.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

That if you're able to write it out ahead of time, there's something about it that can click the light bulb in a way you didn't expect.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Approach the conversation from a different advantage.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Honestly, sometimes I've even. I've even written out a long paragraph, and then by doing so, I've realized, oh, I don't even need to have this conversation anymore. I just needed to write out and process whatever this is.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

And I actually think it'd be better if I don't have this conversation.

[Jefferson]

This is so good. Yeah. Okay.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, it has. It has helped me a lot to. To just get out my thoughts. I think it goes with songwriting, too, of just kind of having a. Having an outlet, having a place to just. Yeah. Let all that out. I think is Important.

[Jefferson]

You got to flush it out.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Because I know that what I find is when you're able to. No filter, just write or type, get it all out, then you're able to look at. Do I even need to have this conversation?

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

I probably don't need to say this now that I've looked at it, like, in front of me and it's not in my head, it's like. Yeah, yeah. That's not.

[Tori Kelly]

Comes out wrong.

[Jefferson]

It's. That's just for me, it's not for them.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And I think that's a really smart way of handling conversation. So has that helped you as a shy person?

[Tori Kelly]

It has. Yeah. And when it comes to. Yeah. Communicating with people or if something is burdening me, I have to, you know, let it out or consider talking to someone about it. Yeah, that. That's definitely helped me. Just writing it all out, and I should probably. This is making me want to, like, journal again. I do so much on. On my phone these days.

[Jefferson]

Oh, that's what we got in our hands.

[Tori Kelly]

I know, but it. It's makes me miss. You know, I used to journal all the time growing up and. But it's. Yeah, it's that. That same concept, I guess.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. I think it. That it can easily turn into writing or songwriting or.

[Tori Kelly]

Right.

[Jefferson]

Anything else. That's wild. I would have never pegged you for somebody who was super shy.

[Tori Kelly]

Really?

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

That makes sense because. Yeah. You see me on stage. It's funny. My husband even said before we started dating, he had this idea of me because he saw that I had kind of a following at that point when we met, he. Yeah, he just assumed I was, you know, kind of outgoing on the stage. On stage, cared about, you know, whatever, like whatever artists care about and somewhere not in reality, you know, and maybe a little bit of a diva or something. And then he obviously got to know me, and he was like, okay, yeah, that's. You're obviously not like that. But yeah, he just. He just assumed that I was more outgoing because I guess I. I guess I kind of turn into a more confident version of myself on stage. I don't know why that is. I mean, I know a lot of artists, though, that. That. That's. That happens.

[Jefferson]

They're very shy, and then they turn into something else. Like, in other words, some inspired comes out of them. Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

I mean, in a little time I've known you, you know, one is, you know, when you have your. Your voice can. An incredible range. So your voice can get big.

[Tori Kelly]

Right.

[Jefferson]

You have big Hair, you know, like. And so it's easy to be like, okay, this is just by instinct of, oh, I think I know who this is. And then you actually get to know him.

[Tori Kelly]

And they go, right.

[Jefferson]

Hey, I'm Tori. And it's. It's. Yeah, yeah, this is my tour voice.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jefferson]

Something like that. Would you say you're somebody who throughout your life has been like, a people pleaser type?

[Tori Kelly]

I mean, yeah, I think in the past. Yes. I mean, when I was talking about, you know, craving that approval from other people or even, like, approval from my parents or. Because I'm. I'm the oldest. Like, how many of just two. There's. There's one younger brother. What about you?

[Jefferson]

I'm the oldest of four.

[Tori Kelly]

Oh, wow.

[Jefferson]

But I feel like if it was just two, I would always be like, oh, you know, I'm the oldest. Yeah. I guess as old as before. I don't have to say it.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, Yeah, I. I think, yeah, I definitely used to care more about what. What people thought and therefore, you know, wanted to please them and. And, yeah. Gain approval. Whatever. Whatever that meant, especially, I think, when it came to my music. But now it's kind of a new thing for me, stepping into motherhood and really not caring about what people think. It's like right when I had him. So really as seven months of not caring what people think.

[Jefferson]

Right. Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

But no, I think the first wave of it was when I turned 30. There's something about stepping into my 30s. I felt more sure of. Of who I was. It goes back to even, like, owning the shyness and just being like, whatever. I'm.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

You know, this is my personality. Take it or leave it. I'm not gonna try to fit in this box for. For anybody. And then that was the first wave of it. And then now, you know, becoming a mom. I'm like, okay, now there's. Yeah, for us, it was like my family, you know?

[Jefferson]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. For us, it was definitely. Sierra didn't really care about when anybody thought, like, at that point in time, she's like, I was. I have this child, and this is all I care about.

[Tori Kelly]

Yes.

[Jefferson]

My hair is going to be in a messy bun. I have nobody. I don't care.

[Tori Kelly]

Exactly.

[Jefferson]

I'm going to go to the store. I don't care. And then for me, as soon as our son was born, like, I'm just. I just cry, like, all the time. It's just that I think dad feels a real. I don't know what it is.

[Tori Kelly]

Oh, my goodness.

[Jefferson]

But all of a sudden you can read a book and you just, just

[Tori Kelly]

everything hits it different.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah. Which is a beautiful thing. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about upwork. For those of you who own business, you know that it does no good to do more things. What you need to do is the right things and let go of the rest. That's exactly what upwork does. Upwork is a platform that allows you to find, match and hire thousands of different types of freelancers from all kinds of different backgrounds. So it could be website design, it could be dev development, it could be from Excel to accounting to, you name it, design. They're all on upwork. I've used upwork personally many times when it comes to, specifically to design and website and it's been awesome. The best thing about it is that it's all in one place. You can search by category, you can search by type. You can go in and look at what they charge, look at their whole portfolio. You get to see everything you'd want to see and want to know to feel confident that this person can do the job you want them to do. So rather than trying to put out a big ad and try to hire all these people, Upwork cuts all that time and says, hey, if you want to get with this contractor and do exactly what you want and they can perform these type of actions, here's where it is. And you can pay and deal with billing and invoicing all from the platform, which just makes things that much easier. So if you're like me, you probably need some help delegating something in your life. Well, if you need help, look no further than upwork. It is totally free to create a platform and it is super easy to post a job. So if you haven't tried upwork, you can, you're really missing out. In fact, you're really just acting with one hand tied behind your back. So visit Upwork.com right now and post your job totally for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That is u p w o r k.com upwork.com and now let's keep going. Well, I'm glad to hear that this transition you've had with people pleasing because there are people out there who really struggle with that, that idea of doing what somebody else wants them to do and tying their identity to tying their self worth to somebody else. And I feel like you've, you're somebody who is an example of not necessarily that You've changed the whole dynamic, but you've grown into a different, different place. What's something that you've had to unlearn about the way you communicate now?

[Tori Kelly]

Can I ask you the same question and see if it.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Inspires me?

[Jefferson]

Let's do it.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. What's something you've had to unlearn and how you communicate?

[Jefferson]

I've had to unlearn that. My opinion's not always the best opinion.

[Tori Kelly]

Oh.

[Jefferson]

And having to.

[Tori Kelly]

That's good.

[Jefferson]

Invite more voices.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Into not only my decision making, but also into my. Into my life. I think it's real easy and honestly, sometimes more comfortable, Tori. To sit at a table alone. Like, at the. Of your mind. Yeah. Like, because it's. It's safer. And I have learned that you have to fill seats at your table of, like, who's going to be. Who's worth the seat in your life? You know, who's. Who's worth that? And that affects how I communicate in the way that I try to keep things very tight. Before, I tried to be a friend to everybody, and now I'm still friendly.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

But that doesn't mean we always have to be friends.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Because keeping your friends few in the same way, you could tie that to. I mean, how much of even in. And I know with our faith of the New Testament is Jesus going to be public? And then what is he doing? He's going to withdraw. He's like, I'm out. They have to go find him. They have to go look for him. Right. And so it's a lot of that. Of almost. The more public you become, the greater the need there is to withdraw.

[Tori Kelly]

You need to do the cool down.

[Jefferson]

There you go. That's exactly right.

[Tori Kelly]

Exactly.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, That's. That's what that is. You need a lot of how to. How to cool down your life by Tori Kelly.

[Tori Kelly]

Oh, is that my.

[Jefferson]

That's your next memoir. That's right.

[Tori Kelly]

That. Actually, I'm glad I asked you that, because that did. That did get me thinking. Good for what I've had to unlearn. I almost feel like it's kind of the other side of that, where I think I grew up feeling like my opinion didn't matter. And I think I've had to unlearn that and realize you do have something to say. You can offer something to the conversation. Because I think a lot of times I would be in a conversation and just, you know, kind of sit back and be a little intimidated. Like, okay, what I. What I have to say is not as good. Good as what they're saying. So let me just sit back and I. I did learn to become a good listener that way, which I think is very important.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. I think there's this balance of, like, being a good listener, but also. Yeah. Having to remove that lie that I've told myself a lot of my life, which is, you know, you. You don't have anything to offer the conversation. People just know you as a singer, so just sing your little songs. That's when they react. You know, they react when you sing, not when you're just, you know, talking in a. In a normal setting.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

So I think I've had to unlearn that and realize, like, oh, I. I do have something to say. Even if it's just something small, it doesn't. I don't have to overpower the conversation. But, you know, just being more confident in the. The story that I've been given, things I've gone through, like. No. No one can. No one can take away your story like that or. Or. Or, you know, discredit things.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. They can't invalidate your experience.

[Tori Kelly]

Invalidate. Yes, exactly. So I think having that, you know, and. And carrying that with me through different conversations has. Has helped.

[Jefferson]

All right, I. This is where my brain's going. Okay, you want to come with me?

[Tori Kelly]

Okay.

[Jefferson]

So what you just described of. Here I am at the table, and I know I have something to say.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

But I'm dealing with that. That mental block of now they know better than me. I probably shouldn't say anything. I'm just going to be quiet.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

There's somebody who's listening, who feels that, and they go, how, How, Tori? How did you get over that? So I want to break this down.

[Tori Kelly]

Okay.

[Jefferson]

We're gonna get sciency for a second.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

On kind of a step by step approach that we could tell this person.

[Host/Announcer]

Okay.

[Jefferson]

So what I heard you, one, say is identify when you are reserving. Like, you first acknowledge, like recognizing, becoming self aware that I have something to say.

[Tori Kelly]

I'm holding.

[Jefferson]

And I'm holding it back.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Is to acknowledge that moment. Two is how do you get over the. You called it a block. How'd you get over that?

[Tori Kelly]

I think realizing that one, that everybody is equal, I feel. I feel like realizing that we're all like, nobody is better than another person.

[Jefferson]

So there's a mindset kind of. You deserve to be in the room.

[Tori Kelly]

Exactly. Yeah. Because it's interesting because as I'm thinking about it now, people would probably look at Me as like, someone above, you know, which is so funny because I. Yeah. I'm like, you know, coming in, being like, I have nothing to say, but then, like, wait, people are looking at me on stage. You know, I'm in very. I'm in a literal sense. I'm like.

[Jefferson]

And you have a lot to say.

[Tori Kelly]

Elevated. Yeah, I have a lot to say there. And that is kind of a safe space for me. I feel like where I feel comfortable. More comfortable sharing. But, yeah, my. My challenge has always been more in the, you know, the normal conversational place. But, yeah, I think that's. That's one aspect of how I got over it was just realizing we all don't. Like, no one really knows anything. People might know some things, but it's. I think one of the most powerful phrases we could say is just. I don't know.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

I think it's really freeing. And even. Even, like, allowing myself, like, one. Yes. Having something to say and offer the conversation, but. But also being okay with not knowing, like, if someone asks me a question, you know, some. Yeah. Sometimes it's just. I don't know. What. What do you think about that? You know, and kind of. I think I just did that to you too. I don't. I don't have the answer yet. Will you.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Answer at first. So, yeah. Just kind of being. Being more kind to myself and. Yeah. Realizing that we're all. We're all kind of in the same boat. The more I realize that. And we're all trying to figure it out, and we all have a lot more in common than we. Than we, you know, don't have in common. I think that has been like my. My starting place and nice exhale moment.

[Jefferson]

Okay. So we have. We have one. Recognize when you're holding back.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Two to get over this mental block is what I hear you saying. It's one. There's a mindset of, hey, you deserve to be here.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

You wouldn't be here if you didn't.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And you. Like, how do you practically physically do it? My guess is you have to choose to say something even if it's small.

[Tori Kelly]

Even if it's small.

[Jefferson]

So it just. Maybe the smallest sentence comment, like, you have to say something out of your mouth.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And then as a test balloon to see, like, did I survive? Oh, okay.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Actually, yeah. The. The fear that I had that they weren't listening to me. No. They actually do care.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And you can only, you know, make progress by proving it. Proving it to yourself.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Have you had to do that.

[Tori Kelly]

Practice. Yeah. And it depends on, you know, of course, the, the group of people that you're in. You know, some people are more conversational and, and more interested, I guess. But even just that, like, I, I think I've. On one end, it's like, yeah, I've learned to offer something to the conversation with. Without forcing it. Though I will say that I don't think it's helpful for me if I'm just kind of. Okay, let me just try to say something to like getting a dress. Get over this fear. Yeah. Like, I think sometimes you just have to wait for that right moment and you'll know, like, when. When it feels natural and organic.

[Jefferson]

Before we get going, I need to tell you about Cozy Earth. Now, if you've been a listener of the podcast, you know that I love Cozy Earth. Why? Because everything they do is top notch, premium. I'm somebody that likes to wear not. Not something that's overly, you know, fancy and also not too casual somewhere in the middle. And Cozy Earth hits that for me every single time. Now, their clothing is not just amazing, it is also their pajamas. It is also their bamboo bedding, which keeps me cool at night. It is their towels. It is their house shoes, for goodness sake. My mom is crazy about their pajamas. Everything they do is good quality. And that is really hard to find, in my opinion, when you're asking for really comfortable clothes. So go to cozyearth.com whatever you get, it's not going to steer you wrong. Use code Jefferson for up to 20 off. Cozyearth.com Jefferson use the code Jefferson for up to 20 off. And now let's keep going. We said start small.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

You know, starting small with that piece, being able to say just a little bit.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Which I really like because I think that's for anything. It's just you have to do something.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

If you always keep it in, you'll never be able to push that out. So it's. You don't think that you have to come into the meeting or conversation with a beautiful, you know, picture book worth of thought. It's okay just to have something small.

[Tori Kelly]

Yes. And that reminds me of the other thing I was going to say that is really unlocked a lot for me, which is asking questions, which I'm sure. I mean, you're obviously really good at it.

[Host/Announcer]

We're here.

[Tori Kelly]

So one thing I have learned, if I don't, you know, I don't feel like I can offer anything to the conversation. You know, maybe, maybe I feel like they're Talking about things that are like, too smart for me or whatever it is, I can still be a part of the conversation by asking a question. And even, even, like, just being a curious person in general has unlocked so much for me because I think a lot of what we're talking about is like, you know, how do I get over this shyness and, you know, say, like, say things that I, that I feel and, and be a part of the convo. But what we haven't really touched on is sometimes it's just being curious, you know, and that is your way of. Or that opens the door to, you know, be a part of it. I think that that actually has really, really helped me get over any sort of shyness or feeling unworthy of being a part because it's like, oh, I'm just, you know, tell me more about that. I'm really curious about, you know, your, your life. If someone's like, sharing their story, I can kind of connect with them by just. That's where I think the. Becoming a good listener too. It's like asking questions, listening.

[Jefferson]

It's a real skill.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, yeah. I've, I've, I've tried to work on that over the years, but yeah, just thinking of different questions I can ask people has, has helped me.

[Jefferson]

Do you have like a go to question? Let me tell you mine.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, tell me. Tell me yours.

[Jefferson]

My, my. I guess it's not really a question, actually.

[Tori Kelly]

Oh.

[Jefferson]

If I'm thinking about it, yeah. Yeah. Is. I'll usually I like to say tell me more. And I guess that's the shortened version of tell me more, please. Like, maybe that's. Maybe that's a question.

[Tori Kelly]

Can you tell me more?

[Jefferson]

Yeah, can you tell me more? I think that's the abbreviated version, but yeah, same thing with say more.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Or tell me more.

[Tori Kelly]

Just drawing more out of them.

[Jefferson]

Exactly. Do you have, you have one that you typically like to keep in your pocket?

[Tori Kelly]

I like. Oh, this is kind of a funny one. On tour, we've been, we've been asking each other, what's your hot take? Like, do you have any hot takes?

[Jefferson]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Tori Kelly]

I feel like you can kind of learn about a person too, if you ask them that, because it can be something that maybe they really love that everyone else hates or they really hate. Yeah, everyone else loves. There's something that's really quirky and unique about them. So I've been actually really liking that question lately because I could see people trying to think, that's a good one, you know, what's yours?

[Jefferson]

I'm gonna be thinking of it.

[Tori Kelly]

So an example, kind of a silly one. My hot take is. This is what I start with. I don't believe that ketchup should be refrigerated. Even though it says on the bottle. Look on your face. Mortified.

[Jefferson]

I can't imagine you're like warm. Ketchup. Ketchup.

[Tori Kelly]

No. Think about it, Think about it. So lukewarm ketchup we go to. Not restaurants, like fast food. Right? Yeah. You get ketchup in the packets.

[Jefferson]

They're not.

[Tori Kelly]

Are they cold?

[Jefferson]

No, they're not.

[Tori Kelly]

They're not.

[Jefferson]

I didn't think about that. Or if they're like on the table.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. I don't want cold ketchup. It freaks me out.

[Jefferson]

Even though I thought ketchup was always refrigerated.

[Tori Kelly]

I know, but I don't think the little packets are ever cold.

[Jefferson]

No.

[Tori Kelly]

And that tastes better to me. So even though it says refrigerate after opening, I think it's a lie because it's vinegar based. So it should be totally fine. Not in the fridge. Yeah, Mustard too. I'm not as mad at cold mustard,

[Jefferson]

but I like mustard.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Mustard and pickles.

[Tori Kelly]

So that's my. That's my.

[Jefferson]

That's a good hot take. My. Let me see. Let me think on the fly here.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

My hot take is if you keep your window shade down on the plane, you should be kicked off. Like, that's my.

[Tori Kelly]

Just if you keep it down.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. If you don't open your window on the plane. Yeah. Just. But what if it's not. If I'm trying to sleep, that's fine. But just use a sleep mask. Like, I can't.

[Tori Kelly]

Wow. Okay. That's a good.

[Jefferson]

Because it's like I.

[Tori Kelly]

That's like a pet peeve.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, that's my. I don't know. I don't think I've learned a difference between a pet peeve and a high take.

[Tori Kelly]

Maybe it's the same actually.

[Jefferson]

Maybe. Obviously don't kick them off, of course. But yeah, mine is like, we're thousand. You're flying in the air thousands of feet. You don't even want to look like you can't even.

[Tori Kelly]

It's a pretty wild experience.

[Jefferson]

How bored do you have to be just to go, you know what? I'm. I'm a human with legs. But you know what? I'm flying through the air at hundreds of miles per hour.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Not even going to lift my finger to look out this window.

[Tori Kelly]

My pushback on that. Let's hear it would be if it's an international flight.

[Jefferson]

Oh, fair.

[Tori Kelly]

The time zones. It's supposed to be nighttime but we're flying through.

[Jefferson]

I agree.

[Tori Kelly]

Bright.

[Jefferson]

I think that's. That is.

[Tori Kelly]

Then I would be totally valid mad at you.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Which if. If you're trying to sleep. I get that. Absolutely. Or if the sun's like beaming in and it's super hot.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Go for it.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. But at least look. Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Once to be like, yeah, this is what it looks like. And then close it. And that's fine. I just need also just something. Just a little something to go. Oh, am I, am I appreciative of this modern machine that I'm in? Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

No one is grateful for airplanes. It is crazy when you think about we're up in the sky on seats, just we're sitting, floating and then we end up in another place.

[Jefferson]

You are sitting.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Getting a mostly terrible snack. But you are going through the air.

[Tori Kelly]

It's wild.

[Jefferson]

That's my pet peeve. Slash.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. I mean honestly, what. What's your pet peeve? Is also kind of a good icebreaker. I've played this game before at. It's a good one at like restaurants and stuff. If you're with, if you're meeting new people maybe. And we've, we've said. I think I'm trying to think if my husband heard this somewhere I might have stolen it from him. But three loves and three hates.

[Jefferson]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Tori Kelly]

Everybody goes around and. And shares theirs and it can be anything from like you could, you could share that as a thing. I hate when people do this. It could be light hearted. But most of the time you'll find people, you know, getting pretty deep. Then you could, you can learn a lot about a person by what they say.

[Jefferson]

Another one that I heard was to ask everybody to show their last like seven items ordered on Amazon.

[Tori Kelly]

Oh my gosh.

[Jefferson]

That's so good to see what everybody's like ordered what they last ordered.

[Tori Kelly]

All baby things, I'm sure.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Oh yeah. No doubt, no doubt. I think mine was like a gardening tool.

[Tori Kelly]

Like a break. Because it feels so personal.

[Jefferson]

I know. It's like you don't. Yeah. Mine was like a new tube of toothpaste. Like you don't need to know what kind of toothpaste I use.

[Tori Kelly]

We're definitely.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, we're definitely going to add this.

[Tori Kelly]

Yep.

[Jefferson]

Chloe's already starting to delete her Amazon or something.

[Tori Kelly]

You delete. I don't know, delete History of Amazon.

[Jefferson]

She's probably trying Once she can let us know. I think using Icebreakers. What's like the deeper message there? The deeper message is find a way to talk about something lighthearted.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Something not serious.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Because I know I'm. We're about to finish up the. Our sciency step process.

[Tori Kelly]

Yes.

[Jefferson]

Is knowing the. What you're about to share doesn't have to be something huge or heavy. It can be something light and it can be simple as tell me more.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Or it's. It could be something that you're wanting to bring up to the conversation more as an icebreaker just for something of gaining a little bit of their personality.

[Tori Kelly]

For sure. Yeah. I think I've. I've learned to. Just to add kind of on top of that, I've. I've learned to not sort of be a. I guess. Let me. Let me rephrase this. I've. I've learned to sort of read whatever room that I'm in. I think I've gotten a little better at, you know, maybe. Okay. When I walk into this room, seems like there's a lot of big personalities. You know, I'm not going to try to like force outdo them stuff. Okay. They're, you know, they got the topics. I'm kind of chiming in whenever. And then if I'm in another room or maybe I am actually the more outgoing one, which is crazy because I feel like I'm very.

[Jefferson]

You crank it up.

[Tori Kelly]

Very shy. Yeah. But then I can, you know, if it seems quiet or maybe a little awkward, that's when I can, you know, bring up one of these questions or just. Yeah. I think questions are just so powerful because I think it. It then gets other people to start talking and then, you know, if you. Yeah. If you can't think of anything to say. I think really just being curious is. Is the best. Is the best move.

[Jefferson]

I think you just finished out our process. 1. You can tell me how. If this is Tori Kelly approved. 1. To recognize when you're holding it in, when you're reserving something that you. You feel like you need to say.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Second is when you are up against that mental block. Have the mindset of you deserve to be there.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And choose to do something. It can start small. So start small.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

What's a three? What's a one? Way you can start small. Be curious and ask. Ask an easy question.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. And fun little sidebar can be. What's your hot take?

[Jefferson]

There we go. Something. Yeah. What's your. What's your.

[Tori Kelly]

Like that.

[Jefferson]

What's your Heart take. What's your feeling on refrigerating condiments or not?

[Host/Announcer]

Something.

[Jefferson]

Something like that.

[Tori Kelly]

So specific.

[Jefferson]

I know, I know. I'm probably. Even after our episode, I'm gonna be thinking of, like, eight other hot takes. I'm like, I really need to have one at the ready.

[Tori Kelly]

Fun. Yeah, I can just. I keep adding. I keep adding to mine. Someone said. Because I was. I like, went on Instagram and just asked people to get. To get some good ones. One really good one I read was red velvet is just chocolate but dyed red. And I was like, I don't know if that. That's more just a fun fact.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like that hurt my. I feel like that hurts my feelings. I don't know.

[Tori Kelly]

Are you a red velvet guy?

[Jefferson]

I like real velvet. I think I like it for the cheese. Cream cheese.

[Tori Kelly]

But next time you try it, I don't think you won't be able to look at it the same. It's literally just chocolate.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. I definitely have seen some of those on social media where it's. They. They like, totally bust your bubble on something and it's.

[Tori Kelly]

I think that's one of those things. Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

It's like, sorry to the red velvet lovers out there.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I feel like it's worth an apology. Yeah, probably there's somebody eating the red velvet cake. Piece of cake right now.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Just throwing away the albums right now. That's how mad they are. You know, between you and your husband, remind me of your husband's name.

[Tori Kelly]

Andre.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, Andre. When y'. All, you communicate. How. How have you improved the way you communicate?

[Tori Kelly]

Wow. Well, we've been together for 11 years.

[Jefferson]

That helps.

[Tori Kelly]

Married for eight. Yes. You learn a lot along the way. I think some of it is just knowing him more now that, you know, just naturally, I think we've gotten better. But also, I gotta give him credit, man. Even some of the stuff that I'm saying about, like, asking questions and things like that, I really feel like I've gotten some of that from him. I think I've. I've watched him in. In different settings, and he's such a. He's a great communicator, honestly. I think that's. He's going to love this whole conversation because he really cares. Yeah. Shout out to Andre. He really cares about connecting with people. And, you know, he's great at, like, he's done speaking, and he has been in a lot of different settings and different communities where, you know, he can get pretty deep, pretty Quickly. Yeah. So I think I've. I think I've gotten some of that from him, I think.

[Jefferson]

Okay, so both.

[Tori Kelly]

I'm sure he's gotten some things from him.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Probably just osmosis, you know, just being around each other. Have y' all found. Because we've been married 15 years.

[Tori Kelly]

Nice.

[Jefferson]

And I can tell you, in that amount of time, you don't survive that amount of time without being really good at handling conflict. Between.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

So have you all. Is there, like, a method or a system on how y' all specifically handle conflict?

[Tori Kelly]

I think we both can get. We're both pretty passionate people, so we can get pretty heated quickly. We've. We've realized. I think we both kind of. We're pretty fiery, but it's because we care. And I used to get freaked out by any sort of arguing, because in my house, that just wasn't a thing I came from. More like, we don't. You know, we don't argue. It's all behind closed doors. So then when, you know. And his family's actually the opposite, it's like, everyone's like, loud. Yeah. You know, an argument isn't even the end of the world. And his family, it's like, we're just.

[Jefferson]

We're just talking. Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Like what? So that was interesting coming into the marriage with that. But I quickly learned to not be afraid of conflict because I. And I actually learned to not obviously not love it, but see the. The good in it and realize I kind of changed my perspective on it because I realized I would rather argue about this and. And get through to the other side, because it actually shows that we care. If you didn't want to. If there was something I cared about and you actually just didn't want to argue with me about it or try to understand where I'm coming from, that would actually scare me more because that's. Now you're being complacent. And I think that's the scariest thing. Complacent is the word, right?

[Jefferson]

Yeah, I think so. Because he's not. He's not in it with you.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, exactly. I think that's. Complacency is, I think, scarier than, like, fighting in some ways, for sure. I know, at least.

[Jefferson]

Oh, I. The same for us. I mean, I think you can. In all kinds of, like, marriage advice world, the phrase they use is lean in, you know, whenever. If there's conflict.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And let's say Andre was like, actually, yeah, okay, whatever. And not wanting to. That.

[Tori Kelly]

Would you win. Whatever.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Well, it would probably make you fight even harder because you're wanting that.

[Tori Kelly]

I just. I just crave understanding, too, on both ends. Like, I want to understand where you're coming from. Why did you say the thing that you just said? Like, what. What's the heart of the issue here? And, you know, and then on the. On the flip side, I also want to feel un. Understood. I want to be understood by. By other people. Like, I really crave that. So I think. I think we've learned to tone down the. The fieriness, though. And. And there's been times, too, where we have this little thing where, like, you know, maybe there's, like, an argument kind of bubbling or we can tell we're, like, annoyed with each other, and we'll just be like, okay, want to rain check this? Okay, cool. And then we're able to just, like, we know, because then it's acknowledging, like, okay, we're not just going to sweep this under the rug, but we're. We're definitely going to talk about it later, but now is not the time.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Like, there's other things happening. Let's. Let's rain check. I care about how you feel.

[Jefferson]

Yes.

[Tori Kelly]

But let's rain check this.

[Jefferson]

I think it helped a lot. Well, what you just said was that's not a small thing at all. Like, rain check, timeout. That is not only important, it is necessary.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And what you added on to that was, we're gonna be okay. Like, I love you. Yeah. That little component.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

I think is really important because it's easy to go. You know what? I just time out and you leave. And that can create a lot of anxiety and stress, and it's like, wait, are we good? Are we okay?

[Tori Kelly]

Good. Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And. But if you just like, there are times when transparently, Sierra and I, we know that we're in a major discussion, and also it typically happens at night. Right. And you're tired. You're tired. We've had long day.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

We got kids and we got. Geez. We got kids. We're talking.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And we love each other, but yet we're. We're just starting to go in a circle or. But being tired is really bad. So it's like at night, you kind of have the midnight madness. And it's. It's Because I think it. For a lot of parents, just like kids, it's. It's our witching hour too. You know, we're tired, and so if it's like, hey, look, let's just put this in. We're gonna talk about this tomorrow.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

What I've learned is I cannot just roll over and. Cause I could. I could just roll over and be out.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

There has to be some. Hey, we're gonna be okay.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

We're gonna get through it. It's not, you know, there has to be that little something too.

[Tori Kelly]

If it's not talked about. Yeah. And I can't. I mean, I have only one little baby. You have. You said you have.

[Jefferson]

I have two.

[Tori Kelly]

How is that? Like, how do you guys stay connected and find ways to like, check in with each other with. Now your kids are slightly older and they have their own lives. Like, how do you guys. I need all the advice.

[Jefferson]

All the advice. Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Get into.

[Jefferson]

Let me tell you what we. We truly do. So we. We have what we call check ins and checkouts. So in the mornings. It's every morning we. We check in even for like. Yeah. Really? Because you got to.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And so we have a. It might be even five minutes towards some portion of that. We're talking about what we have during the day. Because that's what your brain's thinking first and that. See, it's like, get out what your schedule is for both of you. Because it's like, okay, and go team. Team break. But also of just how are you feeling about the day? Or do you maybe something you. We read earlier in that morning that's, you know, been working on us. And then it could be as easy. Simple as two, three, five minutes.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

The bigger ones, the checkouts. That's, you know, how did the day. How did the day go?

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

It might be, you know, the rain

[Tori Kelly]

check that we had earlier.

[Jefferson]

Exactly. But it. But what you'll find as. As your kid gets older, just the more you will. Like now we'll have arguments about things our child did. Like, so if I have a different perspective on something he didn't. It's not that big of a deal. And she feels like it's a really big deal or vice versa.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And so now the problem is not between us.

[Tori Kelly]

Interesting. It's how you're raising this kid.

[Jefferson]

Exactly. And so that's a lot of the conversation of. Because you both want what's best, you both love, you know, just immensely. So having those checkouts of. I think we typically also try and run it through, like, just how are we. How do we. How did we feel about the day? What did we struggle with about the day? So if there were like any thoughts or moments that we really had and then kind of the same thing of what's Been what God's been working on our heart and what we felt like we were going to do and work better and try to be encouraging.

[Host/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And put on the plate if we know something's. Something's brewing, like, you know, we're going to have to have a major thing. So that's. That's helped us a lot.

[Tori Kelly]

I'm going to steal that, I think. Yeah, it's really good.

[Jefferson]

Buckle up, Andre. That's all I got to say.

[Tori Kelly]

Get ready. No, I think we kind of do the schedule thing. Like, we wake. We don't call it check in and check out. But I'm going to steal that because it's great. Yeah, we. I think we naturally have been sort of like, all right, what do you.

[Jefferson]

Or.

[Tori Kelly]

Or we've said, like, what are your hopes for today? Like, what's your.

[Jefferson]

What's your hope for today?

[Tori Kelly]

What are your ideals? Because. And that's actually helped me because I am. I can have crazy ideals of what, you know, what I want things to look like, and it helps me to verbalize them because then it's like, it just gets it out of my body. And then if it doesn't happen, it's fine. But if I hold on to, you know, whatever ideals I have for you, then if you don't do that and, like, wait, the day's all. All scrambled.

[Jefferson]

The unvoiced expectation.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Exact expectations. Yeah, It's. So, yeah, we've. We've actually used that word too. Like, what are your expectations for today? And then it. It just kind of gets it out there. If it doesn't happen, it's. Then it's cool. So I love the check in, checkout thing. That's really cool.

[Jefferson]

I do think that if you only talk about schedule, you really talk about nothing. You know, you really don't get to.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

It's not helping, you know, the person.

[Tori Kelly]

You got to get to the emotion.

[Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Tori Kelly]

How you feeling?

[Jefferson]

Yeah. And one thing my wife said once that I still always love is. I was kind of down about a conversation that we'd had, and she said, well, either way, it's good. In other words, every time, even with a difficult conversation, she got to know and learn more about how I was thinking and I got to learn more of, like, this person that even though we've been together and you've been together 11 years.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

There's still a lot you don't know about each other.

[Tori Kelly]

Totally.

[Jefferson]

And you don't. You don't get to know that person better.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

The person that you Say, you know you love by just talking about the schedule.

[Tori Kelly]

Totally. Yeah. And it's crazy how we can forget to check in. It's like you're just kind of. You're doing life with this person.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

You know, and then kids start getting. I mean, I'm. I'm so new, so I can't even imagine, but I.

[Jefferson]

It's still hard. 7. Seven months is still hard. That's like.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. We have like this new project that we're like pouring into. Oh, yeah.

[Jefferson]

And it never stops.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

It's not like you can set it aside and be like, well, we'll try again next month. It's.

[Tori Kelly]

It's take a break.

[Jefferson]

It's constant.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. I. It just made me think of something. My, My friend texts me often that I. I love that she does this. She'll. She'll just text, how's your heart? And I love that because it's not how are you doing? Which, you know, you could answer that in so many different ways. But if you say how's your heart? It kind of forces you to get to the. Oh, I love that emotion. What's really underneath. And it's making me think of that because I feel like it's making me want to like, go text my husband.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, that's. Yeah. How's your heart?

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, Yeah. I think it's just.

[Jefferson]

It feels really sweet.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, it feel. It feels good to. On both sides of that. I feel. It feels good to be.

[Jefferson]

I'm going to copy that. I like that.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. I'll take the check in thing. You take.

[Jefferson]

I'll take the how's your heart?

[Tori Kelly]

Shout out to my friend Naomi. She's the one.

[Jefferson]

Naomi, that's a wonderful. How's your heart?

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah, she's good.

[Host/Announcer]

We.

[Jefferson]

We like to also ask what's coming up? Like, what's. What's coming up for you instead of what's wrong, what's going on?

[Tori Kelly]

Oh, yeah.

[Jefferson]

What's the matter with you? What's coming up?

[Tori Kelly]

Coming up. I like that.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz there's something coming up.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

You know, for the thing. What's your number one red flag?

[Tori Kelly]

Oh, well, are we talking.

[Jefferson]

Let's talk people, like, in terms of maybe it's personality or. Because I don't want to be specific with that. Like, you know, my red flag is.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

My friend Naomi, you know me, like,

[Tori Kelly]

asking me how my heart is.

[Jefferson]

Exactly. Yeah, that's a red flag.

[Tori Kelly]

Because when I think red flag, I think like romantic relationship. But you're saying red flag in general.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Okay, Let me. Then let me set the stage. So. Okay. Let's put it in a more commercial, corporate kind of meeting context.

[Tori Kelly]

Yes.

[Jefferson]

Where there are lots of other voices in the room, people wanting you to do things, getting asked for you to be pulled in on things.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. What's. What's your number one red flag?

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Okay.

[Host/Announcer]

That.

[Tori Kelly]

That kind of sets it up differently. I think I probably have a few red flags. I feel like I'm pretty observant.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Because you said you read the room really well, and the way you described it is exactly right. Of, like, being able to. It's like a soundboard, right?

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

You're starting to.

[Tori Kelly]

I think I. I never thought of it as a red flag, but I think I kind of tense up or have my eye on someone who kind of carries this kind of know it all energy.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Or like, if it seems like they always. It's funny, as we were talking about adding to the conversation, I think if there's somebody who's kind of overpowering a conversation or maybe, you know, you ask them something and it seems like they always have, like, an answer ready or. Yeah. Just, I guess. Yeah. Someone who isn't willing to say that they don't know, especially in my industry, because what. What I do. I was just talking about this today. It's like, we're not. I'm not curing cancer. You know, I'm a musician. It's like, this should be fun. This is very. This is very light. And I think so much of. Of my industry can feel like it's so chaotic and we're all trying to

[Jefferson]

make it more serious than it is.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. I don't like we're making music. I actually stole that quote from Max Martin, incredible, legendary producer. So, like, if he's saying this, you know, we should. We should take what he's saying seriously. But. Yeah. So I think with that in mind, I think when someone especially in my. In my field is just, you know, seems to, like, act like they know how it works because it's just not true. No one knows how this music thing works.

[Jefferson]

Number one red flag for Tori Kelly is a know it all.

[Tori Kelly]

A know it all.

[Jefferson]

I think that's good. I think that's good. Well, let me just remind you, I don't really know him very much. Tori.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

I just need to tell you, I don't. I don't know very many things. I really. I know a few.

[Tori Kelly]

When you come around me, just act like you don't know anything, and then we'll be friends.

[Jefferson]

There you go. I mean, and I. I think that's. I think it's also healthy.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

What we do is all. If I need to kind of get my mind in that space because I think that's healthy to, like, hey, you said we're not curing cancer here. Mine's.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

I may. I may started making videos in my car. Like, that's. That's.

[Tori Kelly]

It's freeing, right?

[Jefferson]

Yeah. All of a sudden, it's like, even doing. Why am I taking this so seriously? I need to take it. Take it down a notch. But, Tori, I have thoroughly enjoyed the time and the conversation. I'm so proud of the growing family that you and Andre have, and that cannot be easy, being and doing all the things that you were being and doing. And I can promise you that we will be losing our voice probably tonight at the concert. So we're looking forward to the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

[Tori Kelly]

Yeah. Thanks for having me. This is so great. Class is now in session, and the UPS store is here to help you.

[Jefferson]

Ace.

[Tori Kelly]

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