A (6:43)

I love that. Yeah. Thank you for taking on us on this like 360 journey. I love Dr. Julie Smith, whose new book Open Wind is out and is wonderful. It was so much of how you put yourself out there. You're very open about your anxiety, the self doubt, so many things that you didn't learn about yourself until much later in life. So what would you say to the person listening to us right now who if they were in the room with us, would say, Mel, I'm, I'm getting close. I, I feel like I am on the edge right now. I, I've almost hit my limit. I am at a place where I feel lost. What would you say to that person who is struggling right now and where do you draw from to give them the encouragement that there is more for them ahead?

B (7:42)

So there's a number of things I want to say. First of all, if you can admit to yourself that you've had it and that you're stuck or that just the way that life is going, it's just not working anymore. What I'm going to tell you, and this is going to sound awful, is congratulations, because that's step one.

A (8:03)

Yeah.

B (8:03)

Step one of changing your life is having the courage to admit to yourself that the way that your life is going right now and the way that it feels for you no longer works for you. That's it. See, I Think I misinterpreted what stuckness was. For a long time, I thought stuck meant I'm still. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Still is. What happened before, that's when you were going through autopilot, and you're sort of just going through the motions. When you get to the point where you're like, I've had it. I'm stuck. I'm frustrated. I'm lost. I feel scared about this. That's good news, because it means the energy inside you is starting to rattle around. You're no longer on autopilot. You just woke up and went, this doesn't work. And so I want you to. First things first. Pat yourself on the back, because you have declared that the way that life feels isn't how you want it to feel. And that's step one. And you can't change your life without actually doing that first. So that's why I'm gonna say give yourself credit for recognizing you deserve more than where you're at. Number two, I have found that in moments like that, that the most important thing that I can do next, once I say the way that my life feels no longer works for me, I need to do something. I deserve to feel happier. I deserve to feel better. I deserve to look at the next chapter of my life and build something that makes me feel a little bit better and a little bit prouder of myself. So once you do that, here's what I want you to do. I want you to use a tool that I've used over and over and over again to help me in these moments, because it is daunting when you go, okay, I know. I don't know. I know I don't want my life to feel like this, but I don't know what the heck I want. No problem. No problem. You don't have to know exactly what you want in your life in order to change it for the better. Because if you don't know what specific career move you want to make or relationship move you want to make or, you know, what project you want to take on or whether or not you want to move somewhere or what, no problem. Because the single best project to take on when you don't know what to do to change your life is take on improving yourself. So make it a project to either improve your health or make it a project to improve your mental health, or make it a project to learn a new skill. And the fact that you have chosen to find time to hit play on this episode and invest in listening to Something that could teach you how to be a better communicator. That's an example of what I'm talking about. Because if you make yourself and your own improvement just the project, you're going to focus on, that I've just spent the last 50 years taking care of everybody else for this next chapter of my life, for the next three months, the next year, whatever you want. I'm just going to make my health a priority. You do that and you will start to feel different. You will start to feel better. You will start to have something to focus on other than the aspects of your life that are dragging you down. And simply creating that as a project actually will help you build some forward momentum. And once you start to build forward momentum now, you're gonna start to feel more energized and excited to maybe attack your career or attack the relationship that's not working, or attack some bigger problems. But if you don't know what you want out in the future, you deserve to just make yourself healthier. Because if you can do that, you're gonna feel better in a week or a month. And then that's gonna give you new insight into what you actually might wanna take on. So that's step number two. Because a lot of times when people say, I wanna change and then I don't know what I want, that not knowing is what continues to keep you feeling stagnant. Now, third thing I want you to do, because I have come to believe, Jefferson, after 56 years of my own challenges and successes and struggles and things that I've changed in myself, and also doing the kind of work that I do, I have come to believe that the single biggest thing that stands in someone's way and stops them from changing their life or changing their job or becoming financially secure or whatever it may be. The single biggest thing, it's not your ability, it's not your skill level. The single biggest thing that stands in people's way is discouragement. This sense that as I sit here in this moment and I'm however old that I am, and I'm telling myself this self talk that I am stuck. And that no matter what I do, it's not gonna work. And things may work out for Mel, or they may work out for Jefferson, but they don't work out for a person like me. Like, if you have a sense of discouragement and the self talk keeps you feeling discouraged, no advice, no plan, no nothing is gonna help because the discouragement convinces you not to do anything. And so I have this exercise that I've done in my own life over and over and over again that helps me shake that discouragement. And it's this. If you're in a moment in your life where you're feeling very stuck, you can grasp. Okay, I got it, Mel. I'm going to work on myself, or I'm going to get a new job, whatever. But I just have this sense that it's not going to work. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to look backward and look all the way back through your life. Because when you look backwards through your life, what you're going to notice is that your life is this meandering path of things that have happened, good and bad to you, that have all led you to this point. And even your lowest, scariest, saddest, most heartbreaking moments were still part of the fabric of experiences that led you to this moment. All of which gave you skills, it gave you wisdom, it brought you to where you are now. And so I think it's very easy to sit in this moment and see how even the lowest moments of your life actually led you somewhere better in the future. You can do the same thing forward to the future. So if you can look backwards and see all the evidence of your life pointing you to a place where you are now, even if where you are now is stuck, you're still better in many ways than where you were way back when. You can also stand in this moment where you feel stuck and a little lost and a little discouraged. And you can remind yourself that this moment, too, is but a brick on the path that is my life. And I choose to believe that there is a lesson in this moment that is meant for me. And I may not understand why I need to be stuck right now, but I choose to believe that 10 years from now, I'm gonna look back on this moment here and I'm gonna understand exactly why this was part of a better future that I can't see right now. And that's how I've been able to leverage hope and leverage optimism when I can't quite trust in what's going to happen. Because I either don't know what's going to happen, or I don't have a clear vision about what I want. But I can trust in my own life experience that I can figure it out and somehow it's going to make sense. And that has always just helped lift that fog and that heaviness that despair can cast on you in those moments.

A (15:59)

Wow. I mean, there's just so much in There. I feel like that could have been an entire episode. Just those three points right there. I mean, that. That is such good, wonderful, applicable advice that anybody can use right away in the way they see things in my world. What I like to teach is that it's conflict is your catalyst for positive change. Everywhere you've been in life, it is. You've lost that relationship because of a conflict that has led you to a new one. You've had a conflict that has caused you to leave that job to create a new one that the civil Rights movement is from. Conflict that has happened where somebody says. I mean, our whole career as attorneys, somebody says, you know what? Hey, I don't like that. That's not right. And it's through that change that we have those positive outcomes. I've also heard it where it's rejection is misdirection or redirection, I think, is the right term for that.

B (16:57)

Can I say something, please? Here's the thing. Because it builds on what you're talking about with conflict.

A (17:01)

Yeah.

B (17:02)

The mistake that we make is we think that the organizing conflict is what's happening out there. I don't think that's necessarily true. And if you're stuck or struggling right now or you're in the middle of a big reinvention or a change that you want to make, I want you to own the fact that the actual conflict that is powerful is the internal conflict that you're feeling, because you know you're not in the right job. You know you're not in the right relationship. You know that you're not taking good care of yourself. You know that something is off. And so that internal conflict is hardwired into that GPS system in your body that is trying to keep you aligned and on a path that is aligned with your values and what you deserve in life. And so I love that you're starting with this idea of conflict, because, you know, people get stuck and frustrated and lost, and then they get scared because that feels very agitating and disorienting. That's a really good conflict because it means that internally your body is trying to wake you up and have you go, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. This job doesn't work for me. I shouldn't be treated like this. I'm no longer happy in this relationship. I need to do something about it.

A (18:20)

Yes, it is that whenever you have that internal struggle, instead of seeing it as, oh, I just. This is the worst thing. I can't believe this. My life is in shambles. Flip that mindset to say My body is at work. I am going through growing pains. This is. I am coming out on the other side of it. My body is preparing me to be a different person. It is the metamorphosis of how you're going to be growing. I mean, it is. You are in your cocoon at that moment. I mean, so I love that concept. This podcast is sponsored by Cozy Earth. Now, the whole reason I haven't found out about Cozy Earth is because I already use their products. Their bed sheets are on my bed right now. And let me tell you, they're the most comfortable thing I've ever slept on. I wear their hoodies, their sweatpants. My wife loves their pajamas. So if you're like me and when you get home, you just want to chill and be cozy, look no further than Cozy Earth. You can go to cozyearth.com jefferson and you can use the code jefferson for 40% off as cozyearth.com Jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 40% off. I want to make sure that we go into some things that I know without a doubt are going to help every listener here. There is something that is right now a phenomenon in the world. And if you don't know about it, I'm going to tell you. You've been living under a rock. It is Mel Robbins book, the Let Them Theory. I have my copy right here. Number one New York Times bestseller, number one on audible, number one on Amazon, number number one Sunday Times. This is the year of Mel, and I already have my ticket. So if you're not on it, jump on board, because it's going places. I love it, Mel. I love what you're doing and what you're putting out to the world. And I think that it's just. It's come to a place where it's almost has a life of its own. I mean, it's just an absolute movement. What I want to ask for those that are listening, again, we focus on the communication aspect is at a very root level. Would you explain to the listener right now how does the Let Them theory improve their difficult conversations?

B (20:47)

Well, all I'm gonna say is that Jefferson has the single best advice on the planet when it comes to the things to say in response to difficult people and how to have difficult conversations. And so here's the thing, though, is that if in a moment, when you're dealing with somebody who is gaslighting you or belittling you or. Or they're getting very argumentative, if you allow your fear of that person or your fear of conflict or your desire to be liked, to rise up, all of those emotions and feelings will prevent you from using the tools that Jefferson is teaching you, because you can know what to say in a moment. But if you're suddenly afraid of somebody else's reaction, if you say, I feel how I feel, we see things differently. If you're afraid of that, and for 30 years of your life, you have just gone silent. When you're nervous that somebody's going to be mad at you, or you're nervous somebody's going to be disappointed, or you're nervous that somebody's going to try to guilt you, the let them theory is going to give you power, and it is also going to teach you how to not allow those very normal fears to stop you from using the tools that Jefferson is teaching you. So let's just take an example of, like, we'll go light to heavy. So let's just take the example of guilt. Let's say that you have a friend and your friend is having a 38th birthday party and they've invited 12 people. And so you're all gonna go to a restaurant and it's gonna be, you know, we all have been there. There's 12 people, it's a loud restaurant, you can't talk to anybody. Then we're gonna split the check. It's a Thursday night. You have no interest in going, and the only reason why you are feeling like you should go is because you think your friend is going to be passive aggressive. You think your friend is going to be disappointed. This is where the let them theory comes in. In order to make the decision that you want to make, which is, I'm not going. In order to have the difficult conversation, which for many of us is simply picking up the phone and saying, hey, Jefferson, I just love you. I really want to celebrate for you for your birthday. I don't have it in me to be at a big party this week, but I would love to take you out on Sunday and just the two of us go for a hike and we get to spend alone time together, it'd be incredible. That conversation for a lot of people is terrifying because I don't want to have to deal with your emotions. But if you start to use the let them theory, which is let them be disappointed. Let them try to guilt you. Let them even be a little passive aggressive with you. Oh, you can't. Are you sure? You know, I really wanted you there. It's such a bummer. Oh, really? Let them. Let them feel what they feel. Let them express what they express and what happens then when you let other people be who they are and be who they're not. And you understand that you can never control what somebody else says. You can't control their emotions. You can't control immature behavior. So let them act how they're gonna act, but don't ever let your fear of what they're gonna do stop you from having the courage of making decisions that work for you. And so the theory is two parts. The first part is, anytime you get nervous around somebody else, or you're annoyed or you're afraid, or you start people pleasing, or you're about to use the tools for Jefferson, and then you go to freeze. Just say, let them. Let them be disappointed. They're allowed to be disappointed. Let them be upset. They're allowed to be upset. Let them misunderstand, like, my intention here. Let them. Let them. Let them. Then let me remind myself that I get to choose what I do with my time and energy. I get to choose what I think about this, and I get to choose what I do with my emotions. Let me tell this person the truth and then let them have their reaction. And so it creates this boundary between you and everybody else that allows you to understand what's your responsibility to manage and what's not. And what's always your responsibility to manage is your health, your time, your energy, and your truth. What's not your responsibility to manage is another adult's emotional reaction or another adult's communication style that's theirs. So let them do what they're gonna do, let them say what they're gonna say, let them be who they're gonna be, and let me show up in a way that's aligned with my values and communicate as clearly as I can, apologize for what I need to apologize for, and then move on like a mature adult.

A (25:51)

It's so simple, and it is yet incredibly powerful. Now, I have some of my own personal stories I'm going to share with you of how immediately the let them theory just kind of came to light in my own life, in my own stories and experience. What I want to ask real quick is a question that maybe a listener has right now. And that is, where is the balance between applying let them theory and also making sure where you can hold somebody accountable? Like, you don't. Is there a way to use let them theory too much to where you're going too far with it? Have you ever seen somebody maybe apply it too far to where they're almost being too passive?

B (26:40)

You know, it's a Great question. Because I don't think you can hold other people accountable. I think we have to start holding ourselves accountable for telling the truth, for living according our values, for apologizing when our choices and decisions have unintended impact on other people. Like, I feel like instead of trying to hold everybody else accountable, really stop giving your power to other people and focus on the second part of the theory, which is the let me part. Let me hold myself accountable to my own standards and operating with a level of compassion and character that makes me proud of myself. Because when you understand your intentions and when your actions are aligned with what you know to be true and with your best efforts to be a good person and to be compassionate and to make decisions that you know certainly are the best decisions for you, given everything that you know or are dealing with. But also that takes into consideration other people. There are gonna be plenty of times where I choose to go to the birthday party because even though I don't really wanna go, it just feels like the right thing to do based on my values. And so I feel like there's too much focus on trying to hold other people accountable. And that if you're feeling that the let them theory and saying let them has made you passive or withdraw, then you're making a major mistake because you're not doing the second part. The second part is let me. The second part is where the power is. Everybody loves saying let them because there's a bit of superiority that you feel when you're like, let them. Let them be disappointed. Let them be. Let them do this, let them do that. And. But the let me part is, well, hold on a second. What does it mean to me to be a good friend? What does it mean to me, to me to be a good family member? You know, what does it look like? If I take full accountability and I hold myself accountable for the kind of relationship that I want with my family or my partner or my colleagues, then how do I need to show up? Not as a I do this, you do that, or it's transactional, but rather, if I want a great social life, isn't it my responsibility to create that? If I want a wonderful relationship with my sister, isn't that my responsibility to create? And look, there's a lot of people that write in and say, I'm using this. And I'm realizing I'm the only person in my family that ever reaches out, and that happens. And what you then have to do is, you've gotta go let them. My siblings are who they are. They have the amount of stuff on their plate that they have. They have the personalities and the stories that they have. They are who they are. I need to learn to let them be who they are and learn how and what kind of relationship I want to create with them as they are. Then you pull the power back to yourself. Let me ask myself, is family a core value of mine? And if it is, why do I care who's making the effort? Maybe my job in this family is to be the one that plans things. Maybe I'm the social one. Maybe my sister has things going on that she's not even telling me about. And the fact that I keep reaching out because I can and I want to is a lifeline that she's not great at. Kind of making me feel good about it, but I'm not doing it for her. I'm actually reaching out for me.

A (30:06)

Yeah.

B (30:07)

And I think that's a lot of it that we reach out. Like, how many times do you text somebody and you actually expect them that they should text back, that there is this expectation on other people? Is it common courtesy? Of course.

A (30:23)

So true.

B (30:24)

But I wish we could give each other more grace because everybody has a lot going on right now.

A (30:31)

Yeah. Yeah. When we text somebody, I wish we would just normalize the thinking about you. Hope you're doing. Hope you have a good day. Just something as simple as that. When we often text somebody with the expectation of getting that gratification back on us that, I am such a good friend, I am such a good person. I am such a caring relative. When we really did it, we really texted them so that we were a little lonely.

B (31:00)

Yes.

A (31:01)

And we needed somebody to say, you're such a good person, rather than just.

B (31:05)

Giving them, that's okay. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. But what you can do is say, hey, I'm reaching out because I'm a little lonely. If you got three minutes, give me a call. Instead of the hinting or. The other thing that I think is a really important application of this is when people refer to the silent treatment. I think we think a lot about somebody just icing you out. We've all had that experience of high school. Suddenly a friend's not talking to you. You have no idea what you did wrong. But I think there's a even more subtle silent treatment that happens, which is that you know that you need something or want something and you don't actually communicate it. So I'll give you an example. Let's say all you want to do this Sunday is sit on the couch with your, like, special person and you, your kids, your partner, whomever, and just watch a big old movie marathon, right? And then Sunday morning rolls around, your partner wakes up and is like, hey, you know, so and so called and invited me to go play a round of golf. Is that okay? You know, can I go? And you're like, sure. And then what do you do? You sit at home and seethe. And then they come home and then you're, like, doing dishes in an angry way. Because they should have known somehow that this was the plan and not to even ask. And they should have gone for nine holes, not 18. But you didn't communicate, and now you're punishing somebody because of your inability to communicate what you actually need. And there's a lot of reasons why, and this is your area of expertise for why people have trouble asking for what they need. But the bottom line is, is that it is so disrespectful to punish other people because of your silence and inability to communicate. And so another way that the let them theory works there is let them know. Let them know what you need.

A (33:12)

That's so good.

B (33:13)

That's it. And then let me be a mature adult. If they say, well, actually, I'd really love to go play golf. Let them do what they're going to do. Because people's behavior reveals where you stand in their life and what's important to them. But you're never going to be important to them if you're not actually able to communicate what you need or the small changes that people want to make. Like, I was talking with one of my daughters the other day, and I'm like, you know, learning how to be, like, pick up after yourself around the house. That's a skill. Learning how to cook a good dinner. That's a skill, dude. So if you are dating somebody that doesn't know how to do that, don't silently sit there and judge. Communicate that this is something that you would love to have the two of you get better at. And so I feel like a lot of your work can really help people also understand it's not just the difficult conversations that happen with people with big personalities or when there's conflict. It's that quiet, internal conflict that you feel about actually just saying what's so or asking for what you need or being honest about how you feel, that these are the opportunities, using all the things that you teach us, Jefferson, to truly understand that if you can stop being silent and learn how to communicate when it's difficult for you to say, hey family, I'm drowning over here. I need help. I need you guys to do the. I need help with the laundry. I'm tired of being a every night because I'm so angry that I'm cooking dinner and I'm working full time and I'm doing the laundry and nobody's helping me out. Like you're allowed to ask, but we don't because of that conflict you've been talking about that I think is. I think sometimes those are the most difficult conversations. The simple requests that we need to make when we're not fried and emotional and pissed off with the people that we love the most.

A (35:23)

Absolutely. Miscommunication happens in a hundred conversations that never happened. Like that's it is this, that's the, the key element of what I'm hearing is most often it's the little bitty things. It's not the big huge conversations. It's the very small little bitty conversations that are going to carry the day. I, I love that, Mel. The let them theory, the just phenomenon of a book. If you have not bought it, I am recommending right now you, while you're listening to this episode, go click the buy and. And deliver it to your door. It's worth it. And it applies to everything. Some things that I wanted to share. Mel of. There are some people that think that the let them theory has to apply to these big, big moments in their life. Just like we were talking about. And what I felt, and I know what you have said and I've just been glued to your work, is that it really does apply in every little scenario and what it thought of in my mind. And I just had such a wonderful role model in my life of my parents. So my dad would use this theory and not even. It wasn't even the let them theory. So I would bring something up to him and I'd be like, well, they're going to be mad if we do that. And he'd say yeah, they're going to be mad. I said, well no, they'll be angry. He goes yeah, I guess he'll be mad about it. Like it was just that. Well, I guess he'll be mad. Yeah. Or this is one that would always get me. We'd be driving down the two lane highway and somebody, he's driving, I'm in the passenger seat and somebody be right on his bumper. And I feel anxiety while I'm looking in the side mirror. I'm like, okay dad, you gotta speed up. And I mean without missing a beat, he Would just kind of pull over onto the shoulder and he would say out loud, go on with your bad self. That's what he'd say every time. Go on with your bad self. And so it just, it's like that now we all, everybody who's listening. If you're a driver, you know what it's like that you have somebody that's either wants to pass you, you want to pass them and you're very vocal even when you drive of everybody out there, they're either going too slow, you need to go faster, somebody's right behind you and you're going to take that as some kind of challenge. Let them theory applies especially in these micro moments that really have nothing even to do with one on one communication with another person. It's that self communication that we talked about at the beginning that it's often just letting them go. And you're going to let me take the next step. Do I have that right? Mel?

B (38:08)

You not only have that right, but I wanna unpack two really important things there. So the first thing I wanna unpack is the reason why the let them theory is such a phenomenon is that it does not exist in a vacuum. I am reminding you of what you know to be true. I am not like, I am not the first person. In fact, ever since we announced this book, people have come out of the woodworks, be like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. TD Jakes did a sermon 20 years ago, let them go. Like there's the serenity prayer. Is the let them theory, Buddhism, radical acceptance, stoicism, the peaceful like protest. This is all about controlling your response. If you've read Man's Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl the entire book is about the power of attitude and how the things out there you can't control but they don't have to impact what you're thinking about in here. These are powerful concepts that have been woven through spiritual teachings, philosophy, therapeutic modalities since the beginning of time. I have just taken all of that and turned it into a simple tool that you activate with two words. Let them and let me. And you know, for me in my family, my mom is literally like I've lived like this my entire life. In fact she had a pillow that said pull up your big girl panties and deal with it. That's let me. That's let me and my mother. And so the reason why I also believe that this has exploded is because you are being reminded of what you already know to be true. You are also being handed a tool and this is happening at a moment in history that feels at unprecedented levels, like everything is out of control. And the headlines are overwhelming. People's stress levels are overwhelming. Everybody has somebody in their family who is profoundly struggling. People are worried about the economy, they're worried about their kids, they're worried about the future. And it doesn't matter where you live or who you are, people are worried about AI. All of this feels like it is out of control. And this is ultimately a book about control and how when you try to control things that you can't control, like other people's opinions or their moods or their attitudes or how fast they drive or slow they drive or whether or not they ride the bumper, it just creates stress for you.

A (40:49)

As somebody who gives advice on a lot of different formats on how to connect with people and how to handle conflict. Often some of the most important conversations are self communication, what you say to yourself. That's why therapy is something that you need to be doing. I go to therapy. There's nothing wrong with it. It's getting conversations out of your head and just talking about it. It's more helpful than you think. A sponsor of this podcast, BetterHelp, is an online platform that helps connect you to a licensed therapist just for that purpose. And it's really easy. All you do is just fill out a survey and they connect you with a therapist that's right for you. And if it's not a good match, no problem, though at no cost, fix you up with another one. And it's very important to get these conversations out of your head. Relationships come with questions. Therapy comes with answers. You can go to betterhelp.com jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. I highly recommend it.

B (41:48)

And the real power in life, whether you're learning through it through stoicism, or you're learning about it through Viktor Frankl's work, or you're learning about it through radical acceptance, is in focusing on what you can control, which is your response, your attitude, what you choose to do or don't do in response to the things around you. And the second thing I wanted to say about that story, because I absolutely love it, and we can all relate to that. Just pull over and just, you know, how did your dad say it? Let your bad self buy or what.

A (42:23)

He'D say, go on with your bad self.

B (42:25)

Go on with your bad self. Yeah, you're just, go on with your bad self. You're acknowledging the negative energy. You're allowing it, Right? So now you're in Control. It's not like he's run you off the road. You're like, all right, go on with your bad self. I'm in control here because I'm choosing to pull over and I'm choosing to recognize your energy is not affecting me. And this is the second thing that's actually really, really important. So you talked about being in the passenger seat and feeling that volcano of stressful energy rise up in your body. And the reason why it's important to use the let them theory in the micro moments, standing in line, and it's taken too long dealing with a frustrating customer service issue, having somebody be rude to you, like all these little things people, like stopping in front of you and then that, like, whatever rude behavior, let them, let them, let them. Because every time you say let them, just like with your dad, go on with your bad self. Just like when you do that, what you're doing is you're not allowing dumb things on the outside to actually steal your life force. And what I realized, Jefferson, is that I had no idea how even just two years ago, the age of 54, I would come barreling in to my home at the end of the day, completely stressed out from work and emails and zoom calls and the long lines and the traffic. Commute home and I throw my bag down and I'm all razzled and stressed out from all these micro moments where I'm letting the stress rise up. And then what do I do? I snap at my kids. And you taught me something. You taught me a saying that I said that I taught to my family to say to me, which is, you know, I'm really sorry for what your work stress did to you, but you're gonna have to apologize for what your work stress is doing to me. And it wasn't until I learned to say, let them, and I started protecting myself from the unnecessary stress and frustration of all the things that happen in modern life that I actually got on the other side of this problem. And I can now walk in to my house at the end of the day and not vomit all of that frustration and stress on my kids and my husband. And the reason why this matters is because I think it's very hard, or at least it's very hard for me to communicate effectively or to communicate like a mature adult or with kindness when I am stressed out or I am frustrated or I am tired. And it has been a life changing experience in terms of the level of peace in our household and the amount of safety that I think my family feels around me. Like, oh, what kind of. We all have that person in our family. What kind of mood are they gonna be when they come home? Well, that was me because I was constantly allowing everything to get to me. And then I would get home and I'm like a raw wire. And then that's when you use that tone, or that's when you say something you regret or you send that snarky email and saying, let them, let them, let them. And protecting my peace has made me a better communicator overall, because I'm actually calm and centered when I'm opening my mouth at the end of the day.

A (45:53)

So good. So good. I love these moments of you're turning. What would be an exasperated sigh. The into. Let them. And let me take an intentional breath, you know?

B (46:05)

Yes.

A (46:06)

Let me turn that into something that is really going to serve me in my purpose of where I want to go, rather than I have no control. Let me just let out a sigh that is letting everybody know how aggravated and annoyed I am and how much of an inconvenience they are. I think that is incredibly powerful. I want to make sure that before we go again, we're talking about the Letin theory. Amazing book written by Mel and I and also your daughter. I don't want to forget that I was a critical, integral part of the book.

B (46:42)

She's actually going to be on the COVID We're in all the new books. Yeah, we're putting her on the COVID That's wonderful.

A (46:49)

It's gotta be so special.

B (46:50)

It was really cool because, you know what was very cool about it is it happened organically. And I'll spare you the story, but we're very different people. And my brain is sort of like, imagine you've got a cardboard box full of mice and you dump it out in a kitchen. Like, that's the way my brain works. And my daughter, literally, she thinks like an Excel spreadsheet. She's a walking computer. And so the two of us working together was like, I mean, oil and water. I drove her crazy. And all day long, we would have to say, let her, let her, let her, let her. I'd be like, you're so intense. This is a creative project. You gotta loosen up. And then she'd be like, you're a nightmare. And we'd be, let them, let them. And so the experience was super emotional and frustrating. We argued over every word, which is why the book is actually so good, because I would come to the table with a story from my life about a particular way to use Latin. Theory. And she's like, nobody my age gives a about that. We're not gonna put that in that book. And I'd be like, whoa, okay, well. And then she'd tell a story. So it became a universal book because we were arguing from both of our experiences to make sure that absolutely everybody could see themselves in every story. Either you're the villain, which I normally am, because I'm the one that was emotionally immature and controlling, or you're the person who's having to deal with somebody who's controlling and emotionally immature. But what really happened? And this is the beauty of the theory, and this is the beauty also of learning how to speak and communicate clearly, learning how to be more compassionate, learning how to listen, learning how to create space for two things can be true at the same time. And people can come from. Come at the same thing from very, very different perspectives and still weirdly kind of want the same thing but not see it the same way. And so learning to say, let her, let her, let her, let her, it created the space between us that allowed us to actually see each other without changing each other or resenting each other for who we are for probably the first time in our lives. And inside that space of me being able to not judge or be pissed off at how rigid and organized and like, hard driving she is, and for her not to be just wanting to just throttle me for being all over the place and hard to nail down and disorganize, you create the space for people to be who they are. And you also create this skill of learning how to love somebody for who they are and who they aren't and not have the things that you're trying to change or you've always wanted to change, actually create frustration. You just replace it with acceptance. And it healed our relationship. And so this is really, for me, a theory that when you let other people be who they are, your relationships get better. Like, part of the reason why we have so much miscommunication is because we're trying to change everybody. It's because we're frustrated with who people are. Instead of learning how to have more compassion and accept where people are at and accept that people are doing the best that they can and accept that people want to thrive. And if they're not thriving, there's probably a skill or they're feeling a little discouraged, which is why they're not doing it. And so for me, not only managing my stress and having more peace has certainly impacted how I communicate, but learning how to operate with a lot more Compassion and grace and acceptance has definitely changed how I communicate. Because you'll notice when you're not trying to change people and when you're no longer afraid of people's reactions, you actually create the space for open communication because there's nothing to manage.

A (51:10)

I love it. And this goes perfectly into how we try here in the my podcast, I always try to give a very practical tidbit of advice that they can use in their next conversation. And while I. After I read the let them theory, a phrase that came to mind for me over and over again is the phrase, I don't need to change your mind. So when you're in conversation with someone and there is that time where they kind of disagree and you're having that hard friction, if you can just say, I don't need to change your mind. Like that to me is one way, one of many ways to express that. Let them. Because what you just said was so key to anybody who's listening. What Mel says is the absolute truth. The more you let people be who they are, the more you can appreciate them, the more you can love them, and the more room you make for more positive in your life. So a phrase like I don't need to change your mind, I don't need to change your mind. It is a way of allowing them the freedom, saying, let them before, like you said, Mel, the next step, which is just as critical, is to let me. And that's where you have the accountability side of it. Mel, what are your thoughts on that?

B (52:38)

I think you're a genius and. No, I mean it. Cause I was sitting here marinating on I don't need to change your mind. And the interesting thing, I think that also happens psychologically when you say I don't need to change your mind, is that if somebody says that to me, there's almost this part of me, it's like, well, wait a minute, I didn't say. You know what I'm saying. Like, you just opened the right. Because now you have given me autonomy and agency and respect to have my own opinion. So now I'm actually open to changing it.

A (53:08)

Right. Because originally they might be thinking like, oh, well, I kind of. I kind of wanted you to. Like, I wanted that fight. I wanted you to. I don't need to change your mind.

B (53:16)

I don't need to change your mind.

A (53:18)

Yeah, that's many ways to use the let them theory in real application. Another thing that if people are wondering, you know, how do you use this let them. The way I see it, are people who Want up you, let them one up you. If they're going to stonewall you, let them one up you. And people who refuse to apologize and people that, you know, they could apologize, it'd be so easy, but they're just not. It's one of those. You just let them. So what is, Mel, what would be the one thing that you would want to share with the listeners here when it comes to communication and people that are saying difficult things? How do you love the difficult people? I know that's one of my favorite chapters in the book is how do you love difficult people?

B (54:10)

Well, I think that the first step is you get to choose whether or not you want to.

A (54:18)

Yeah.

B (54:19)

And so I think a lot of conflict that I've felt personally in my life with people that have challenging personalities or past histories is the obligation that I'm supposed to. It's a very big change when you recognize you actually have a choice. And when you have somebody in your life, especially if it's a family member, that is a very challenging personality, there is this sense that you have an obligation to love them no matter what. What. That's not true. You get to choose who and how you love. And when you take on again, the let me part, let them be who they are. If they have a narcissistic personality style, that's who they are. And the expectation that they're going to change and the hope that they will is what keeps you in conflict with this person. Because you're expecting them to change. You want them to change, you're hoping they're gonna change. And so you bring in all that energy to the dynamic when you just go, let them. Let them reveal who they are. This person has been who they've been for their entire life. I know what every interaction is gonna be like with this person because they're always the same. If you watch people's behavior, it's the clearest form of communication that there is. And when you let people be who they are and who they're not, and you have zero resistance to it, you now take all the power back and you say, I'm not letting them be disrespectful. I'm not letting them walk all over me. I'm for the first time letting them reveal the truth of who they are. And that allows me to walk in with eyes wide open and live in the reality of who I'm dealing with instead of gaslighting myself, being in the fantasy of who I wish this person would be. And so when you just let people Reveal who they are, you're not gonna brace. Cause you know that this person sucks all the wind out of every conversation or has to turn everything political or makes it all about them, or everything's true. You know, this going in, you're not gonna waste any energy wishing it was gonna be different. Cause you know, and you're gonna let them. And then you're gonna say, let me remind myself, my time and energy, I gotta protect it. I can leave any conversation, any text chain, any table, any family gathering, anytime I choose. I don't have to, like, play into this because I recognize what it is. Now, here's where the loving, difficult people come in. You can still choose to love somebody who's difficult. There are a lot of us that have people in our families or in our lives that have somebody that either has a lot of trauma in their background and they act out in a lot of ways that are very challenging, or they have a narcissistic or borderline personality style, and it's very, very challenging and confusing. But because of your values, you choose to have this person in your life. And when you say to yourself, I'm going to choose to love somebody who is difficult, that means you now recognize something very important. Your relationship is controlled by you. If you want it to change, it all comes from the change in your energy and your time and your boundaries with this person. Because you can't change the other person. And so, you know, really, number one, ask yourself, do I just feel obligated to love this difficult person, or do I actually want to choose to figure out how to do this? And number two, if I were to just let them be who they are and give up any hope that they're ever changing, do I still choose loving this person? And what does that mean? And number three, let me remind myself, I'm actually the one in control here. My relationship with this person I'm choosing to love is my responsibility. I get to choose how much time and energy I put into it. And I also get to choose to force myself to live into the reality that this is who this person is. And therefore, I will act accordingly.

A (58:37)

So many incredible nuggets and wisdom on our time here today. And Mel, as somebody who appreciates communication, I have to tell you, very grateful for what you communicate out into the world and how you do it. And that's why millions of people listen to you every single day. So I want to tell you thank you for all that you do and you put out. Thank you for writing and putting out a wonderful, amazing book, the let them theory. And of course, for me especially, thank you for being on my podcast. Thank you so much, Mel. Appreciate it.

B (59:12)

Well, you're welcome, Jefferson. And I'm gonna tell you something. The second your book publishes, I am going to be happy to step aside and hand that number one New York Times bestselling slot to you, because you deserve it. And your book is incredible. And I cannot wait to see people read it and improve themselves, themselves because of it. So know that I'm always here cheering you on.

A (59:35)

Thank you, Mel. I feel it. Thank you.