← The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
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- [00:00]
Jefferson Fisher
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Caller
Hey, Jefferson.
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Jody Perkins.
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Now, Jody Woodard.
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My husband is one that's not too
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expressive in his feelings, and I would love to be able to initiate conversations that establish a safe environment for him to do that freely.
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My question would be, how would I
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start a conversation or initiate it with him with the intentions of invoking his true feelings while creating or letting him know it's safe for him to do that?
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Thank you very much and I'll keep
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watching your podcast because you may have already answered that somewhere.
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Jefferson Fisher
Thanks, Jody. That is a more common issue than you think, Jody, where you have a spouse who has a very hard time expressing emotion sometimes. Jodi, I have that same problem. Right. I don't want you to think that lack of an emotional response is lack of feeling emotion because there is one thing to feel it, there is another thing of emoting it. So a lot of the times, like I can tell you from things in my childhood of how I've been raised, from my parents to other family members, there is this, what I call static mode. When there is some kind of conflict, there is usually somebody within the relationship that can go static, meaning they kind of get gripped by their emotions. They have a hard time expressing them, sifting them, sorting them. Maybe they can't name them. Maybe they have something within in them that is very hard. There's also people who have what they call reduced effectivity, meaning if that's a bell curve upside down that the extremes are going to cut off, they have a hard time feeling sadness and they have a hard time feeling extreme joy. So they're right there kind of within that middle of ways to work around that. So I don't know what, where your husband falls within that bell curve, but what I can tell you is I'm confident that he feels something. And the issue is he's not expressing that emotion. And I hear you being a wonderful spouse and saying, hey, what are some things that I can do to create that safe space to make him feel that this is some emotion to try out. Here's what I would encourage you. One, have a conversation of whether or not he'd be willing to engage in increasing his emotional vocabulary. Meaning we generally go towards and we're never taught that there is more emotions than sad, angry, tired, grumpy, frustrated. There's all this spectrum of emotional nuance to describe emotion that we aren't using. Okay. To understand that you know what I'm actually feeling, I'm feeling kind of dismissed, I'm feeling kind of defeated, I'm feeling off and I can't seem to place my finger on it, but I know I'm generally in this area. And so one, how do you do that? There's tons of resources online for ways to develop. They also have like an emotion motion wheel where you're able to pinpoint different emotions to help express that more. I would encourage that not just just something he does, but something that both of you do so it doesn't mean and try and pinpoint that he's some problem that you're trying to fix. Right. You don't want to be able to do it to where it's like he's the project that you have to work on that's going to make him feel more emotion. And I have no clue if what he's feeling is tied up in some type of shame, if it has something to do with his childhood, most likely I'd say it definitely has something to do with his childhood. And as a lot of emotional triggers and feelings are and how to develop that. So my hope right now is giving you that it doesn't mean that emotions aren't there. It means they just need to be developed more. So having increasing emotional capacity for that vocabulary is going to help. Number two, I would encourage you rather than saying things that criticize him for not expressing his emotions, I would encourage you to use open ended phrases that would help him kind of go on this fact finding mission of what exactly he is feeling, a phrase that we like to use and a phrase that I love to give people. Is this what's coming up for you? What's coming up for you? It's a very nonchalant, non offensive, non defensive way of saying what's happening inside of you right now. And I would even say some baby steps to take is see if he can even begin to express the feeling without trying to tie it to emoting it. So if he were, if he was able to say, I'm feeling sad right now, even though his face doesn't say sad, or if he's feeling angry right now and he's not able to express that anger, just saying it is at least giving you more of an idea and comfort because it's actually comforting of knowing that they are sharing this feeling. They're just having a hard time expressing it. And three, I would encourage you to take it slow. Emotions are not things that can just be turned on like a switch as much as we would like them to be. And so how do you, how do you do that? Some with a lot of patience and knowing that it's going to have to be developed. If there was other questions that I could give you other than what's coming up for you, it would be what emotion can I best help you with? Or are you feeling emotions right now? Is there something that you are feeling? And if he's not able to name it, it's kind of this. You have to take it baby steps. And if he's not able to name it, we try to go even deeper. Maybe it's something that's written down. Maybe it's something that it's the two of you are, are together with, maybe a couples counselor and you're able to say, okay, this is a muscle that we're trying to work together. There's not going to be phrases I can give you that's automatically going to make him show more emotion. That's not going to happen like that. My phrases are something that I can give you hope in and knowing that it will happen. It's something that has to have a lot of patience and a lot of I just don't want you to lose hope. That's the biggest thing is I don't want you to lose hope. And so where you find that piece of how can I be a safe place for him? Don't criticize it when you're not seeing it. So I want to be very careful with that criticism element that you might be tempted to go into when you don't feel like he's meeting you in that emotion. There's a difference between wanting to and being able to. And so it might not be that he doesn't want to feel that way. He doesn't want to feel like he can't show that kind of emotion. He really wishes he could, but he is having trouble doing it. That is usually a problem that happened long before he ever met you. All right. And so we're all coming into the relationships at different levels. And so this is where he's at. So how do you be a safe space? It's the same way of when my son or daughter come to me with things. If I were to yell at them for saying that they did something wrong, well, all I'm teaching them is that I'm not a safe place to come to again. And that's never something that I want. So if he is approaching you, even with the smallest level of emotion, I want you to. If it. If it makes sense. I'm not trying to push you into something that doesn't feel comfortable to you. I want to encourage you to use words of gratitude, like, thank you for coming to me with this. I can imagine that felt really big. Or, you know what I mean? I can imagine that feels really hard to express. And I appreciate the effort that you've put into this. So that's the biggest thing is to acknowledge, even when it's a very small feeling to you, it might be the most minor thing is to acknowledge and affirm the emotion that is being expressed. And I think that's a way of showing that you can be a safe space for even more. Great question. Okay.
- [09:32]
Caller
Hi, my name is Katherine and I live in Lisbon, Ohio. My question is, when you ask someone to forgive you for something that you've done, whether you did it intentionally or not is irrelevant. But their response to you is, no, I will not forgive you. I'm going to let bygones be bygones. So my question is, how do you continue a relationship with someone after they give you that type of response? You know, they are not forgiving you in any way, shape, or form. And I am wondering if it's really possible to continue a relationship when they're kind of carrying that around with them, but trying to get off the hook by just saying, let's let bygones be bygones. I'm wondering how you would handle something like that. Thank you much. Bye,
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Jefferson Fisher
Katherine. Thank you for sharing that. That can be really hurtful when you apologize for something and seek forgiveness and that forgiveness is refused. 1. I have a big problem with that because, you know, you can't expect to receive forgiveness if you don't give forgiveness. And that's going to be up to that other person. There's no words I can give you, Katharine, that's going to make them say, yes, I forgive you. Here's the thing I want to stick in your heart, number one, apologies, while they are for the other person, that it is more a spoken acknowledgement by you that I have remorse, regret that I have done something that my behavior, my actions, my words have caused. I acknowledge that. I see that, and I'm affirming that. And I want to let you know that I am sorry for that. I made a mistake, and I seek your forgiveness. Now, forgiveness is not a requirement for apology. Okay? You've apologized. That is your action. Forgiveness is theirs. And by this person saying, you know what? No, just let bygones be bygones. I'm telling you, Kathryn, that's not somebody that I would really want to be associated with, to be honest. That's them. Not if they can't see themselves in something. You know, what they say is they're so concerned about everybody else and their wrongs rather than being concerned with yours. There's an incongruence there. And that, to me, is not okay. So what do we do with that? Like I said, I want you to understand you've done the right thing. You've done the right thing. That being said, because I don't know what you've done and what the context is, there is certainly a place where some things. I'm not trying to say things. All things are forgivable. That's not what I'm saying, though. I do. I'm somebody who is absolutely an advocate for grace and forgiveness. And that's that. That's the message that I'm blessed to be able to share. It is the aspect of some forgiveness takes time. And so maybe they're not able to forgive you today. Maybe they're not able to forgive you tomorrow or next week or next month or even next year or maybe for many years to come. That is not yours to carry. There is healthy regret and there is toxic shame. And what I am asking you to do is keep it in realizing, yes, I did things that I regret. I've apologized for that. I've tried to make amends for that. And that is as far as you can go. You cannot make somebody cross that line and say, I forgive you. At the same time, their forgiveness is not a requirement of you to also forgive yourself. Okay? Just because they withhold their forgiveness does not mean you are undeserving of your forgiveness to yourself for whatever it is that you've done. So don't feel like that is something that you're never going to have complete full circle on, that you're not going to feel whole about. All right, so you've done what you need to do. Two, you don't need their forgiveness for you to also forgive yourself. And three, when it comes to people who say, well, let's just agree to agree to disagree, that, to me, is a little different than let's bygones be bygones. So I'd see those things as two different, very two different issues. My encouragement that I want to give you, Kathryn, is you saying, this doesn't feel right to me. I think that's a true feeling, that, no, there's a reason why that doesn't feel all the way complete to you, and that bygones be bygones is not good enough. And I agree, because that's just going to be something that is unspoken in this relationship. And so I would be totally open and encouraging of the conversation of bygones be bygones is not enough for me. That's not going to be something that sits well with me. There is either going to be some sort of forgiveness and amends that is complete, or we're going to understand that this is going to be a rift and a rupture until you're ready, because there's certain things that are going to take. So I don't think you've done anything wrong in wanting to apologize. I think that's, of course, the bigger move. I'm not also willing to say, truly, Kathryn, that them not wanting to accept that the gift, forgiveness, right at that moment is all the way wrong either. Sometimes forgiveness takes a lot of time, and there's all things to be said of living in amends and being able to continue to do the best that you can. I think there's a place where both things can be true. So what you're doing, I think, is exactly what you need to be doing. I would just encourage you to know that their forgiveness is not required for your healing. Thanks, Katharine. Before we keep going, I want to talk to you a moment about Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth. Well, in fact, you don't even need to hear from me. I'm going to give you a text that. I kid you not. I kid you not. Listen to me. You're going to say, that can't be true. This is 1000% true. I just got this text from my Mama less than an hour ago. She said it was so good to see you this weekend. It was my brother's birthday birthday brother's wedding in Austin. My baby brother. I'm looking forward to keeping the kids soon. I love my pajamas that you gave me, which are the Cozy Earth pajamas I gave her last year. I was thinking about getting another pair during their Mother's day sale. Do you still have a discount code? 1. I think I can hook her up with some more pajamas, but this is how much. I don't know if my mom loves anything more than these pajamas. Aside from us, Dillard's, Talbot's, Belles, and definitely Cozy Earth. But for the rest of you, I have a discount code. Go to cozyearth.com jefferson use the code jefferson and get up to 20% off. That's cozyearth.com Jefferson use the code jefferson for get up to 20% off the most comfortable pajamas you'll ever where Mama Fisher recommended. And now let's keep going.
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Caller
Hey, Jefferson. I'm Jamie from Vancouver. I work in the movie business as a camera pa. I have a supervisor who controls my bookings and sets my rate. I've been underpaid relative to my colleagues and there's a history of him limiting my access to better opportunities. There's a new project coming up and I expect to call soon. My question is how do I ask for a higher rate without damaging the relationship? For context, I had a conversation last year that went over poorly. I opened with your framing and all was going very well until I mentioned a raise. I opened on growth and career advice, but things soured at the talk of money. I've been at a day rate of $100 less than my peers, often for the same work.
- [18:00]
Jefferson Fisher
Thanks for that question, man. That's not cool. And that feels really unfair. And I don't blame you for feeling that way. Here's what I would encourage you to do. And I'm going to feel, I feel like I'm doing you a better service if I approach this very targeted. All right. Because it sounds like you've already approached from a position of teaching, career advice. What can I do? What can I learn? And then it turns sour at the aspect of money that's not uncommon. But what it does tell you is what you're dealing with. Okay, so how are we going to approach this conversation differently? We're going to do a different tactic, a different approach, one I'm going to encourage you to. Whoever this is, let's say it's your supervisor. Approach them with the question, is there a conversation where we can talk about my salary without damaging our relationship? So you see how I am. You're trying to separate the two. Because I hear you say, I'm very concerned about how do I talk about money without touching this relationship. Well, that's beautiful language. Use that language like that. Same fear and vulnerability you're sharing with me. That needs to be shared right there. Because that's the crux of it right there. We're not going to hide that. So when you open with, is there room for, Is there a place for, Is there a way? You see how I'm opening up a blank canvas? Is there a chance? I love that phrase, too. Is there a way? Is there room for, Is there a chance? So let's play it out. Let's say I'm you, you're the supervisor, and I approach you when there is time for it, and it's not something that's rushed. And I say, I'd like to talk to you about something that's important to me and I need to know something first. Is there room for us to have a conversation about my compensation that is separate from the relationship that you and I have and that we're continuing to build, period, Or I guess, question mark. So that is very out in front. Seems also very fair. Hey, they should be able to separate compensation from relationship to say, hey, this is my security, my compensation, and how I feel valued versus what I know you already and I have, whether it's camaraderie and what we're trying to build, because what you don't want is the money thing to go sour. That's one approach. Number two, let's talk about timing. Most people feel like they need to have these compensation conversations in just one conversation, meaning we need to talk about my salary right now. And if I. You don't give me an answer. And the answer that I want, the fear from them is that you're going to leave, you're going to find something else. And they have to kind of immediately, as any business owner or leader or manager, they start doing the numbers in their head of, oh, okay, well, if I don't give them exactly what they want, money wise, I don't know if we can afford it. We got to look at the books. I don't know, do I need to hire somebody else who could also do it cheaper? And they start seeing you as a commodity and as a product and as a cog, not as Jimmy the Human, the PA who's amazing at his job, you know, What I mean. So rather than thinking you need to have a conversation right now, what I would encourage you is to use this phrase, add on to it. This is a conversation I'd like to have with you over the next few weeks. You see how you've immediately lifted the burden of now. I do think you need to put a deadline on it. But when you're able to kind of expand and say, hey, I'd like to have a converse. I'd like to have this conversation with you this month, before the end of this month or over the next few weeks, you're signaling that this is something that we're continuing to invest in. So let's talk about it for a little bit. Go back to the drawing board. Let's talk about it. You want this to be a collaborative thing. This is not a demand thing. This is something that you want to work on together, and that's very different. Number three, are you ready for the hard stuff? This is where we got to talk about money and the fact that you're other colleagues are getting paid $100 more than what you're getting paid, even though it's the same as similar work. Not cool. We're going to do something about that. So this is where I want you to consider. And I say consider because everybody's tolerance is different. I want you to ask a question, and you're going to know when the timing's right for this. This is not a question that you ask right out of the gate. All right, Jimmy, so you're going to begin with the phrase, are you against. And this is what it's going to sound like. Are you against paying me the same amount as you pay these other PAs? And you hear how that's different than me saying, is there a reason why you don't pay me what you pay them? Because what it's doing is they're going to find a reason. Well, yes, actually. And they're going to go look into the comparison game. And what they're trying to do is get you to show all the differences and discrepancies. And rather than go with you and go, oh, my gosh, Jimmy, you're so right and I'm so wrong. They're going to try and justify every little discrepancy as to double down and say, I'm right, you're wrong. But when you say, are you against? That positions the question of fairness. That positions it in terms of what. What's the. What's the difference here? What's the holdup? What. What are you Pushing against that you can't pay me the same. It's a question that the reason I like it is because gets them to a no answer. Are you against that? Assumes that they're not. And so you're, you're wanting them to get to a no. Right? That's, that's, that's the win kind of so to speak. That's the success. That's, that's, that's a good thing. That's a window here. If they say no, are you against paying me the same amount that you pay everybody else? So that's a much easier question for them that you are calling them out, but you're doing it in a way that is much more intentional calls in this sense of it's. You're pretty much saying, is there a reason you're not paying me like everybody else? But the way that you're packaging the question is, is not going to pull out the spikes from them on that sense of defensiveness, of I have to justify myself to you. But if you ask it, are you against. That's saying as if everybody else is good with this, but they have a particular issue with it. And when you're able to get to the heart of that, I think that's going to be really revealing. And here's the takeaway. If they're still not willing to. And he goes, yeah, I am against it because of X, Y and Z. And you don't believe those reasons are valid. We need to find somewhere else where you are val valued where you can feel validated that you're going to be paid just as much as everybody else for the same exact amount of effort. All right, awesome question. All the best to you, my man. Before we continue, a quick ad from Monarch. I know what it's like when at the end of the year, the tax season, you're looking for a tax refund and you have to deal with taxes, which are the worst. And you're all worried about financial ness of going, where's it all going? How am I putting it in? What am I tracking? How am I doing a budget? And what it's like to say, okay, we're gonna, at the end of the week, we're have a budget. And then that week comes and goes and you go, okay, we really need to have a meeting about budget. Monarch fixes that. And it's been extremely helpful for us. Where you have everything in one dashboard, it tracks everything very easily. What's all coming in, any investments, any other stuff in a portfolio, or you're spending and it's one easy to access dashboard right on your phone or on your laptop. So I highly recommend it. You can simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with Code Jefferson. What it's going to do is shift you from tracking to planning and that's going to feel a whole lot better. So achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use code jeffersononarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off@monarch.com with the code Jefferson. And now let's keep going.
- [26:41]
Caller
Hi there. My name is Joanna Paul. I live in Ponte Vedra, Florida. I have a 21 year old daughter who is abusing my kindness by stealing and lying to me. She's in college but not doing well. I need her to understand the problem and the pain she's causing. She lost her dad. She's suffering, we all are. But she is taking it out on me by stealing, using my debit cards and she's abusing the one person that loves her. I want her to understand her pain and the pain it's causing me, but in a loving way. And I want her to get on the right path. Thank you so much.
- [27:34]
Jefferson Fisher
Joanna. I want to tell you you're a good. And the fact that you would call me to ask for some things to say is not something I take lightly at all. I can't imagine what you're going through and how painful that must be to not only have loss of your daughter's father, but also in some way feeling like you've lost some of your daughter. She's 21 and she's stealing credit cards and using debit cards and she's causing you pain. And I know that you love her. I know that you, you wouldn't be calling if you didn't. And the things I'm going to say and the things that are coming to mind for me are things that I want to send to you in the warmest, most genuine way that I, that I know how. All right. The first is going to be some tough love by me and that is you can't keep offering the credit cards and cards. That's. That would be to enable that kind of behavior. And of course she's, she's shown herself not to be trustworthy of that. That's not your fault. What I'm saying is we're gonna have to do some practical things, and that means some things are going to have to be limited until that trust is formed again. Because right now, that trust is having a hard time. 2. When you have these conversations with your daughter, and these are conversations you're going to need to have, I need you to approach these not in the aspect of coming down on her that she's done something wrong, because it's not about the money, right? It's not. It's not about the credit card. It's that she did it knowing it would cause pain and it would inflict pain onto you and any loss. It's. It's this. This thing I heard once. You know, I sat beside my good friend Anger, and it turned to me and said, my name's not Anger. It's grief. What your daughter is feeling is the same thing you're feeling, probably on a different scale, because grief is not linear. But she's feeling a lot of grief. And what she's doing is using grief as a way to mask and blame and cause even more hurt. Because sometimes causing others pain is at least somehow a little bit more of an outlet and escape from feeling your own pain. And that's not fair, and it's not right. So how do we. How do we handle that? I want you to approach a conversation. So you need to have a conversation with her. And I would open it up with this question or something like, it, however fits with you, and it would be this. Are you aware that you're not the only one hurting? Or are you aware that what you're doing is hurting me? Or it's okay to say I miss him, too, without mentioning the cards at all. The cards will be talked about, but that's. That's not the issue. It's like the issue is not the milk being spilled, right? It's. It's always something else, something deeper. So at this point, I'm guessing, Joanna, it's not about the cards. It's about something deeper. And where I would want you to focus your mind is, I assume you're wanting to find ways to help her. I'm fine. You're wanting to talk with her, want her to share her pain, to be able to empathize with that. When I think of something that I can possibly offer to help, what a hard and complex and deep conversation and issue that you're having. What I. What comes to mind for me Is a place and a mindset for you where. You can look at your daughter and say, my love for you is big enough. My love is big enough to hold your pain. Like. Like my love for you is big enough to hold all of your pain. To know that she can lash out and maybe even words and express and not know where to turn all this grief and this anger and all this emotion and that you can be that safe place without coming at her with condemnation or punishment or telling her how she should feel about certain things. I think there's a place for you where you can say, I support these things and I cannot support these things, and both can be true. I can support you when you need somebody to talk to. I can support you when you need somebody, a shoulder to cry on, when you're confused and you need to hear a voice. And for me, just listen. I can support you, and I cannot support you when you steal my credit cards, when you lie to me, when you take my debit card, when you're abusing the very kindness and love that I'm giving you. I cannot support that because understand you not supporting that is in the same way supporting your love for her. Because I know you love your daughter more than anything, and you're wanting to her to be on the right track. And so what you have is an opportunity right now to be the safest place for her, for her not to continue on, to go seek relief from her grief and pain somewhere else. I would have the mindset of she can. You can hold it all, all of the. The pain and the grief that she's feeling right now. You're a good mom, Joanna, and just want to give you the biggest of hugs. I want to take a moment to tell you about timeline. When we talk about aging. Well, we usually like to talk about our diet, our exercise, the cold plunge, whatever it is. But there's actually something that needs to go down at the cellular level. That's right. We're talking the mitochondria. You remember the mitochondria, the powerhouse of the salt. Well, it turns out that you actually need that energy and what timeline does. All right. Through a supplement called Mitopure, which I've been taking now, and it tastes delicious. They're like these little gummies that are awesome. Like, seriously, they do taste good. That help clear out bad, damaged mitochondria so that it restores and gives you clean mitochondria for better cellular health. Timeline has spent over 15 years research researching mitochondrial health. And in human clinical studies, people saw improvements in muscle strength and energy without changing their routine. For me, it's about staying sharp, staying strong, and making sure that I am having as much energy in my body as I possibly can. And where does that start? The powerhouse of the cell. I promise you, they really do taste delicious. So Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Mitopure now starts at $79. When you go to timeline.com jefferson, go to timeline, do/jefferson. And now let's keep going. Okay, there we go.
- [36:16]
Caller
Hi, Jefferson, My name is Dalen. I am from Wyoming, currently living in Utah. I am a manager for a maintenance aircraft maintenance facility. And my question is, or my problem is, is the peer to peer going from a peer to peer relationship to a peer to supervisor relationship? I'm now a supervisor above the majority of my co, my former peers. How do you navigate being direct with people that have become friends? What are practical steps to get out of the friend zone with your peers and continue to be direct? I, I obviously want to be liked, but. And I think that is a struggle for me, but I do also, I want to be direct. I want to get results. I'm willing to change and find pathways to grow and be direct. And I think that's all I've got. So, yeah, just want to get out of the peer to peer area and start to establish the supervisor to peer relationship. Get out of the peer friend zone. That's my favorite. Anyway. Thanks, Jefferson.
- [37:45]
Jefferson Fisher
Dylan, that's a good question. And I like that concept of how do you get out of the peer to peer friend zone where you're all on the same level and then you get promoted and now you're responsible for them. And what's the dynamic like? You're just being friend zoned. And are you still. Are you boys, are you not? Is there this kind of how do you communicate? How do you show them that there is that superiority? At the same time, you do want some level of trust and friendship and camaraderie. At the same time. There has to be a chain of command, right? That's just what the business is. Here's some thoughts, Dalen. Number one, I want you to get very comfortable with the phrase I'm telling you this because. So start your sentence with I'm telling you this because. And here's where you can add a little bit of trust because these, I'm assuming these men and women, they might feel a little bit slighted, possibly the fact that you got the position and they didn't. And so there's going to be this aspect that they're looking to see. Are you different? You know, has it gone to your head? And they're going to start to count that against you of like, oh, okay, Mr. Supervisor here just said that I need to do X, Y, and Z. And feeling like you've trying to. You know, in the legal world, when a judge is making some big decisions, we'll say he's. He's feeling his robes. In other words, you're. You're starting to kind of feel yourself out a little bit. Here's what I would encourage with that phrase. I'm telling you this because you can insert trust by saying, I'm telling you this because I know I can trust you. I'm telling you this because I know you appreciate transparency. I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it. I'm telling you this because I know who you are. I'm telling you this because I know your work ethic. You see how it's like a shortcut to saying, hey, I could go through the. I'm going to say rigamarole. I could go through all the legalese of sound more corporate, sound like supervisor. But I know you and you know me, and I'm telling you this because I know who you are, and I want to have a conversation about X, Y, and Z. It's like you saying, hey, I'm just going to cut through. I'm going to cut all the fluff here and just get right to the point. Cool. So I'm telling you this because it helps get right to the point. Number two, there should also be this aspect of, y' all are there for a job, all right? And yes, you can be friends and friendly, and you're going to want to keep that. And that has a lot to do with your tone and behavior, which it sounds like. Dalen. That's exactly what you're trying to achieve. It's. How do you take it from friendship to also saying, okay, we need to structure this in a way where we still get the job done. Here, I want you to rely on language around teamwork, language around organization, teamwork around direction. So what I like to tell new leaders like yourself, the more you can use words like alignment, direction, those are words that a captain would use. Right? You're setting the roadmap of what you see. So get really good at using language that kind of forecasts the direction and movement of where you're wanting to take them. So instead of this, hey, I need to have a conversation with you. I'M not happy about what you're doing. This isn't going well, or whatever it is. Have conversations around. I like to move us in a direction where you and I can do this more efficiently. And I need your help with this. Right. You're telling them you still need their help in the same way they need your help. And so to have that open line of communication of that, hey, we're going in this direction together, that is you calling the shots. That's you being captain of the ship, so to speak, to allow them to trust that you're also going to take care of them and bring them on board with you. You with me? All right, number three, let's say you need to have a really hard conversation with this person and they're friends and you like them. And there's this guy who's also another engineer and he's your boy, but this time he's causing you some problems. You're not really sure how to handle it, and you want to sound more direct. I'm going to encourage you to use what I deep dive in the book as frames, conversational frames, meaning you are pinpointing exactly the issue that needs to be spoken of and you are naming the goal of the conversation before you even begin because it's often that we get it backwards. So this is what a frame could sound like for you with this person that might be giving you some issues. So you're going to start with, number one, tell them what you need to talk to them about. Hey, I'd like to talk with you about some comments you made at last week's meeting. Two, you tell them how you want to end the conversation. I like to begin with, I want to walk away with. That's a phrasing I like to use. Hey, I'd like to walk away with X, Y and Z. So it might be, number one, I'd like to talk with you about some comments you made at last week's meeting. And I want to walk away with the understanding that that's not going to happen again. I want to walk away with trusting that, you know, that's not going to be putting us in a good position. I want to walk away with X, Y and Z. There needs to be something you are bringing away, taking away from that conversation. And three, you get their buy in into the conversation. It's where you say, that sound good? Does that work? Can we do that? And they're going to. They're not. And that allows you to continue the conversation knowing exactly how you want to frame it up. So if you and this other person, you feel like y' all are on ice or it's Rocky, get really good. Dalen, on speaking that out loud. So don't let these moments of hidden tension where it's like unvoiced, go unvoiced. That that is a recipe for disaster. When there's unspoken expectation and unspoken reaction to things, you can tell that there's something in between you. I want you to say it out loud. And I'm not saying you have to, like, read a magic ball and tell what's going on. It's as simple as saying, I feel like there's something between us right now. I feel like there's something unspoken. I feel like there's something more that you want to say. I feel, oh, here's a good one, Dalen. If I use this a lot when these. These kind of edgier moments where you're not really sure how to gauge what the reaction is going to be. So instead of using really concrete, specific words, I use words that are a little bit more ubiquitous words that have a little bit more give to them. For example, you can go with distances and weather. Those are my two favorite. So what does that mean? Instead of saying, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? You're acting like something's wrong. I could say, you feel really far from me right now. I'm feeling a distance between this. I'm feeling like there's a mile between us, and I need to find a way for us to be on the same page. You see, I didn't say anything about any specificity or about it or like somebody's asking you, how are you feeling? Rather than having to sift through that, you say, ah, you know what? I feel like things are kind of cloudy right now. I think that things are kind of stormy right now. You see how it's much easier way to kind of dip your toe into getting them to tell you more. And so I would encourage you to be someone who, as you already want to be, Dalen, a great leader, to invite that dialogue. I like to say that a good leader responds to conversation. A great leader leaves room for it. And Dalen, I think that's exactly what you're wanting to achieve. So I think if you begin with this very concrete stuff, I'm telling you this because if you invite more conversation, if you are encouraging them and using frames and being direct when you need to be direct, I want you to have the mindset that being direct like this is exactly what they want. Like, they want you to be very direct. So even if you were to say, I need to have a very direct conversation with you, because I know that's what you need, and I know that's what you want, I know that's what you deserve. Right? Hey, you deserve a really direct conversation right now. And that's. That's what I'm prepared to do. I think. I think you know exactly where that's going, so. Encourage you Dalen. Awesome conversation, man. Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho. Look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling, Ross. Work your magic.