The Jefferson Fisher Podcast: Outsmarting Narcissists – The Praise or Provoke Trap

Episode Overview

In the June 3, 2025 episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, hosted by Civility Media, Jefferson Fisher delves into the complex dynamics of communicating with individuals exhibiting strong narcissistic behaviors. Titled "Outsmarting Narcissists: The Praise or Provoke Trap," the episode offers listeners actionable strategies to navigate conversations with narcissists effectively, aiming to reduce conflict and enhance communication outcomes.

Introduction

Jefferson Fisher opens the episode by addressing a common dilemma: "How do you talk to a narcissist?" [00:00] He immediately acknowledges the prevalence of narcissistic behaviors in various relationships—be it familial, marital, or professional—and sets the stage for discussing practical methods to handle such interactions.

Understanding the Narcissist's Game: Praise or Provoke

One of the central themes Jefferson introduces is the concept of the "Praise or Provoke" game played by narcissists. He explains:

"If I am not showering these people with praise, oh, how great they are... they will turn to provoke an argument with me to try and create conflict where there is none." [04:14]

Jefferson emphasizes that narcissists seek control and thrive on eliciting emotional responses. By either excessively praising them or provoking them, they manipulate the interaction to their advantage. Recognizing this pattern is crucial for anyone looking to communicate effectively without falling into their traps.

The Rigged Nature of the Game

Jefferson compares dealing with narcissists to participating in a rigged carnival game, where no matter how much effort one puts in, success remains elusive:

"The game is rigged. It was never fair. It will never be fair." [04:50]

Understanding that winning this game is impossible shifts the focus from trying to change the narcissist to managing one's own responses.

Key Strategies for Communication

Jefferson outlines three primary strategies to handle conversations with narcissists:

1. Adopt the Right Mindset: Playing Their Game

   • Acknowledgment: Recognize that interactions with narcissists are part of their game and accepting that you cannot win it.
   • Avoid Engagement: "You can only choose not to play it." [05:30]

2. Use Neutral, Flat Statements

   • Maintain Composure: Respond with short, unemotional phrases that do not provide ammunition for further manipulation.
   • Examples: Words like "Noted," "Interesting," or "Okay" can deflect attempts to provoke.
   • Quote: "Flat as can be. So find a word very short, very flat that you can't do anything with." [08:17]

3. Limit Interaction Time

   • Keep Conversations Brief: Do not allow extended discussions that can lead to emotional entanglements.
   • Set Boundaries: "Keep the conversations as short as can be when they start to lash out." [10:00]

Leveraging the Narcissist's Need for Audience

Jefferson shares a practical tip from his experience as a trial attorney:

"People who exhibit narcissistic behaviors don't care about you. They care about everybody else... this is their stage after all." [12:00]

By redirecting the conversation to how their statements might appear to an audience or how others perceive them, you can encourage narcissists to moderate their behavior. For instance:

• "If you think the jury's going to like this opinion, what do you think?" [13:51]

This approach exploits their desire for public approval, often leading them to soften their stance or behavior in response to perceived scrutiny.

Real-World Application: Deposition Example

Jefferson recounts a deposition scenario where he effectively used these strategies:

"I referred to the jury, he made an opinion. And I said, if you think the jury's going to like this opinion, and he... pivoted to talk about himself." [13:52]

By shifting focus to the jury's perception, Jefferson was able to neutralize the expert witness's narcissistic tendencies, thereby safeguarding his client's interests and maintaining control of the narrative.

Self-Reflection vs. Narcissism

Jefferson also touches on the fine line between occasional self-centered behavior and true narcissism:

"Every single one of us can exhibit a behavior that some might call narcissistic. The difference is the empathy." [15:00]

He encourages self-awareness, emphasizing that genuine empathy and accountability differentiate healthy interactions from narcissistic patterns.

Takeaways

1. Recognize the Game: Understand that interactions with narcissists are part of a manipulative game aimed at control.
2. Respond with Neutrality: Use brief, unemotional statements to prevent feeding into their provocations.
3. Limit Interaction: Keep conversations short and avoid deep emotional engagements.
4. Redirect to Audience Perception: Leverage their concern for how others view them to influence their behavior positively.

Conclusion

Jefferson Fisher concludes the episode by reiterating the importance of being equipped to handle interactions with narcissistic individuals. He underscores that while dealing with such personalities can be challenging, adopting the right mindset and strategies can lead to more constructive and less conflict-ridden conversations.

"Use what you know about narcissists and use that to your advantage in a way that is safe." [20:00]

He encourages listeners to subscribe for more insights, explore his book The Next Conversation, and engage with additional resources like the School of Communication for continued improvement in their communication skills.

Notable Quotes

• Jefferson Fisher [04:14]: "If I am not showering these people with praise, oh, how great they are... they will turn to provoke an argument with me to try and create conflict where there is none."

• Jefferson Fisher [04:50]: "The game is rigged. It was never fair. It will never be fair."

• Jefferson Fisher [08:17]: "Flat as can be. So find a word very short, very flat that you can't do anything with."

• Jefferson Fisher [12:00]: "People who exhibit narcissistic behaviors don't care about you. They care about everybody else... this is their stage after all."

• Jefferson Fisher [13:51]: "If you think the jury's going to like this opinion, what do you think?"

• Jefferson Fisher [15:00]: "Every single one of us can exhibit a behavior that some might call narcissistic. The difference is the empathy."

• Jefferson Fisher [20:00]: "Use what you know about narcissists and use that to your advantage in a way that is safe."

Further Resources

• Subscribe: Stay updated with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• Listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify: Accessible platforms for streaming.
• The Jefferson Fisher Podcast on YouTube: Visual content for enhanced learning.
• Book: The Next Conversation – Available for purchase to deepen your understanding.
• School of Communication: Join live sessions to practice and refine your communication skills.
• Newsletter & Social Media: Follow Jefferson on Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn for additional tips and insights.

By implementing the strategies discussed in this episode, listeners can foster more effective and less contentious interactions, ultimately enhancing both personal and professional relationships.