B (3:43)

you gotta got me in one.

A (3:46)

Yeah. Yeah. I am living proof that the stuff, the book that you have start with yourself, works. So.

B (3:53)

Listen, it's so true. My podcast is in a cupboard in my office, and it's the only way it would work for me, right. Like, it has to be right there. And when I interviewed you, it was right in the, like, the super, super early days. I'd interviewed Jay Shetty and then you, and I was like, oh, my God, like, this is so crazy. But again, of course, because of who you are.

A (4:14)

Cardi B. Cardi B. Yeah. It's like the very me to Cardi B is a very easy, very natural.

B (4:21)

Same. Same set. Just lovely people with the. With the. With the voice that just puts you.

A (4:26)

It's because we can. Oh, it's the same thing.

B (4:28)

Exactly. Same, same. I'll tell Cardi.

A (4:33)

Yeah, please. Your book. All right. Start with yourself. At first, I thought, you know, I got it, and I said, okay, this is. Is this. Is it almost wrong to have that mentality? And I think it's that contrast, Emma, that made me go, okay, I'm going to keep reading and understanding that. No, it's about making sure that you can't control everybody else, but you can control yourself. And when you say before, I blame this before. I blame that before I start trying to fix everybody else. How about you start fixing yourself? And so once I had that type of perspective switch, I said, okay, this is. This is really great. And we're going to keep talking about the book throughout the episode. But you have just such a depth of experience that I don't think as many people appreciate just the level of things that you have to. You get to not have to. You get to manage and be responsible for and balance and juggles and. And I know a lot of people ask you questions about what you do. The first question I want to ask Emma is what you don't do. So what are some things that you find maybe in meeting with somebody? What do you think is. Let's put it in the business context first. What's a red flag that you see that others might miss in business relationships?

B (6:09)

Oh, you know, first of all, I'm gonna. First of all, I'm so happy to speak to you today, and I'm so happy that I get to speak to you in this. In this context around the book. You know, I. There are so many red flags, but a big one for me is when it starts on, what do you do?

A (6:25)

You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (6:27)

What? Yeah, like, hello, who are you? How are you? Like, what do you know? To me, that's always a red flag. And, you know, I think that in business, you can understand so much about a person from that initial introduction. Like, you know, when someone sees you. You know, when someone sees past you. And I'm a real people person. Like, I will not remember your name, but I will remember how your grandfather came into the country. But that's also because I bother to ask you that question. And so, to me, I like to figure out, in business or otherwise, that the essence of a person, like, who are you? Like, how do you come here in this room? And so when somebody starts, like, trying to figure out, like, what's in it for them, how can I help them? That's like a red flag to me. I'm like, you're already out. It's already in you.

A (7:19)

When it starts really superficial, when it starts really superficial, I can see that.

B (7:23)

I think that's something that the older you get, that changes, right? Like, I am, you know, I'm 40. I keep telling everyone I'm 42. I'm 43. My husband had to come and stop me the other holidays. I've heard you say it three times today, you're 43. So I'm 43 now. And I think that part of even this journey of that I've just been on writing this book for the last couple of years like you. You get close to yourself, you start to understand so much about who it is that you are. And so I'm just very interested in, in understanding other people and what makes them uniquely who they are.

A (7:58)

And you said in, in your book and I've seen some other interviews because I listened to you too, Emma. It's not just, it's not just one way.

B (8:06)

It's not one way.

A (8:07)

It's not just one way. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a two way road of understanding. Also the value, or at least not not being afraid to try and mask the fact that some things are transactional where you don't have to. Cause it's almost worse when somebody starts with the gloss, the fake, when you know they're gonna be asking for something. What I'm saying is just own that. I would rather you own that than try and be genuine. So do you see that as something that you go, I can already tell that they're wanting something from me. And it's. How does that process for you?

B (8:48)

Yeah, no, I don't wanna shy away from that because as a woman in business, I think that often we're kind of trained, kind of like have this almost like performative politeness, soft ambition idea that we're not trying to get something. I'm like, we're here to make money. That's the purpose of business. Like that's okay in that context. And so I don't like to. I'm a very straightforward person with a very high moral baseline. You know exactly what I want because I told you not, because I'm trying to hide behind something and then like sneak it around the back. I think that that intentionality of being forthright, being open, saying what you need, what your expectations are, it actually takes all of the, all of the crap out of business. And so I wrote this book, you know, by the way, I wanted people to use, not just to buy it by and to read. I was like, how do you create something that is useful? And it's about self leadership. It's about this idea that we can't control what's happening in the world. We can't control what other people are going to do, but we can control the way we come into a space, the way we behave, the energy we put in. Right. And so I think that that is really important and that's important in business and it's important in life more generally.

A (10:10)

I Get such a treasure talking to you now. This is the second time we've. We've had the chance to meet, and of course, we've communicated since. But what treasure is for me is I get to talk to somebody who has such a roster of experience and a depth of success in running businesses and somebody who is a woman and a woman of color, and to say, okay, I know that when somebody asks me, a white male, say, how do you. How do you say things directly? All right? And I know my perspective is just one, and I will get comments which are very well received of. That wouldn't work for me. That doesn't work in the end. I'm a woman. That's not going to work for me. You don't understand what that's like. And the answer is, I do not know what that's like. That's correct. And so here I have to me an expert that I couldn't think is any more positioned for this kind of advice. So in your world, as a businesswoman, how do you speak with directness?

B (11:19)

Just like a white guy.

A (11:22)

No, let's not do that, please.

B (11:26)

Here's the thing. You know, it's really funny because I feel like, I mean, to be honest, so many of my teachers have been white men, right? I'm married to a white man. A lot of my investors are white men. And in so many ways, you know, early I modeled the behavior that I saw all around me. I think I'm a really straight shooter. And I think a lot of that was informed from where I was born. I was born in East London, which is like the hood, you know? And so this idea of having a high moral baseline, I didn't realize. I thought that was my personality. I didn't realize that came from where I was from. But you tell the truth, you, you know, you're true to your word. If you say you're going to do something, that you do it. And I carried all of those traits into business. And I think that so much of business is about how you behave and not what you say. It's like, how do you follow up? How do you leave people feeling? How do you, you know, kind of behave in any given transaction? It's never about, like, one individual moment. And so I think that what I've built in my reputation over the years is the ability and the freedom to be really forthright because people know who I am. They know that I'm going to come good on my word. They know that I am going to do exactly what I say, and that I'm not full of it. And so I really have kind of spent my career not so much watching what I say, but watching what I do. Um, and that has really, really served me well. And what's so interesting, you know, now that I'm on this. This kind of book tour, you know, I've met three journalists that used to work for me. Three.

A (13:13)

No way. That's awesome.

B (13:15)

And thankfully, thankfully, they're writing really nice things about me because, you know, it's like how you treat people and how you leave people feeling like that has the biggest impact in than any kind of single thing that you can say. And so I think that I am. I don't know, I try to be very just who I am, and I make no apologies for it. I think everybody always knew that I was very ambitious, and I have been, I think, working away for the last 25 years to make that a more attractive term for women, because it isn't used in the same way for women as it's used for men. And I'd kind of like to change that a little bit.

A (13:57)

I think you are.

B (13:58)

I definitely think that he's ambitious in like a.

A (14:02)

That is such a quote. Have you. Did you come up with that? The. I don't watch what I say. I watch what I do. Like, that is.

B (14:09)

No, I didn't, but I'm taking it.

A (14:10)

Did you just come up with that right now?

B (14:13)

I just came up with that now.

A (14:14)

Okay. Okay, Emma, that is such a killer line. Like, you need your social team. All right, listen to me. I know they're listening right now.

B (14:23)

I'm going to tell them.

A (14:24)

I'm going to tell them. Tell them Jefferson said they need to put this in a quote. I don't watch what I say. I watch what I do. Like, that is. That is T shirt mug worthy. You need.

B (14:36)

We're doing it. We're doing it because you said so.

A (14:38)

Yeah. No. Okay. I think that's. That's a great point of ambition seems to be. Have certain connotations with it when it comes to men. Ambition seems to be almost a negative trait when it comes to women. And I hear you saying, I want to. I want to change. I want to change that. And I think you're a living example of that. When I hear you say, okay to be very direct with somebody has a lot more of not just what I say, it's what they can see me do and see me follow up on. I want to know. This is me piece. This is where I'm loving this. I get to Kind of tease out how Emma thinks about things. So when you're saying, okay, you're walking into the office, you have a room full, you know, it's crazy. Your schedule's packed, you know, when you are about to enter into, okay, I have that breath of moment. I just got out of the car, I'm about to go into the. The room. Where is your mind in that place? Is it. How do you. How do you balance the. The performative of. I have to look the part and, and balance the personal of embodying the part.

B (15:48)

That is such a good question. Because all of us, we come with so much baggage, right? And when you're a mum of four, like, my mornings are so intense, you know, by. By 8am I have trained. I've probably done one kid's hair. I've had half a breakfast. I've got, you know, like, so much going on around me. And I get in the car, I'm on a call, and I walk in the office and it's like, you know, the first. The first, like, meeting. I think the thing that I've really learned to do is to bring myself, like, into any situation. Like, I'm not a multitasker. Like, I do the thing that's in front of me and I give it everything. Like, I am big on eye contact. If you pick up your phone in the middle of a meeting with me, like, it's over. It's just over. I need, like, undivided attention, but in return, I give undivided attention. I'm a real, like, in the room person. And that is, by the way, a superpower in business. Because when you give undivided attention to matters, they get solved quickly. Like, I'm not going to have 27 emails. They don't. Like, everybody knows. Soon as an email's past two paragraphs, I'm like, I'm dyslexic. I'm not reading that. So it's like, I want the speed, I want the connection, and I want the concentration of, like, the whole thing. But I'm really somebody who's very mindful. Like, I know I have a very commanding presence. And so I know that the way I walk in has an effect on everyone. Like, you know, everyone will tell you in your office. I walk in and I'm like, morning, everyone. And I'm also like, I'm a Chatty Cathy. So I'm like, what did you do this weekend? How was your Easter Sunday? Like, did you do an egg hunt? You know, it's like, I do that Because I am. I like to be with the people and connect with everyone and understand where are we. And then we can get into it and then we can be like really all about the business. But I, I think it's important to just have that level of presence and, and that is a gift when we live how we live right now.

A (17:57)

Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love having Cozy Earth as a sponsor because I love wearing their stuff long before they were ever part of this show. The thing I like most about Cozy Earth is just how soft everything they have is. I'm a big sweatshirt guy. I'm a big hoodie guy. I like that balance of where you can wear like a hoodie and then some shorts. I'm one of those crazy, weird people. I love Cozy Earth for that exact reason. So anytime I can gift something to a friend, it's usually some kind of hoodie or sweatshirt because I want them to feel just as cozy as I do. So if you have somebody in your life where you know that they would appreciate some nice cool weather gear that they just feel good around when they're wearing it in the house and they just want to chill, go to Cozy Earth. You will not regret it. Also, they not only have a 100 night sleep trial, they also have a 10 year warranty, so there's literally no risk. You can go to cozyearth.com jefferson for up to 20% off. Cozyearth.com jeffyson for up to 20% off. You will not regret it. And now back to the episode. Do you think presence is a learned skill or is it something that you think you were born with in East London?

B (19:11)

You know, if I didn't have my wits about me, that was problematic. You needed to be present. You can't be away with the fairies there, that's for sure. I think that it's become more attuned since I had kids because kids don't need that much. But what they do need is like all of you, you know, you can't be like half having an email, half having a conversation. And because my time is really finite with them, you know, I don't take my phone out of my bag when I come home from work because that couple of hours, that dinner time, bedtime, story time, that needs to be like unencumbered with whatever might be going on in my day, which is usually like a disaster. I only get the problems now. You know, my, my whole day is a series of problems. So I do really think that that is, it's a gift that you give yourself, is a gift that you give the people around you. But it's probably like, it's just so important and it's an underrated thing to just be like single minded and, and, and thoughtful and like in the moment. But it is, it is a superpower.

A (20:19)

If we could poll your team because I know you have a lot of people, you know, the eye of your hurricane that is Emma. If we were to pull how many

B (20:31)

polling hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.

A (20:34)

The immediate. Yeah, let's say you're top 20. Let's say you're top 20.

B (20:39)

Okay.

A (20:39)

You know, what would they say in terms of communication that you excel at and some things that, yeah, you could do a little bit better.

B (20:50)

I mean, that they would say, I am clear. Like, nobody is ever wondering what's Emma thinking? Because I already told you, like, we're not waiting for an assistant. No, I was like, I already told you like the. And I think that that is really important. Like I'm in constant communication. And when you run businesses having clarity about the goals and I think that this has to go beyond the top 20, right? It's like I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and they all need to be going towards a common goal. And so when I express something and when I have a set of priorities for any given business, I need everybody working towards those. And so having that clarity is really important. So I think that people think I'm clear. They think I'm firm, right. I don't really suffer falls, but I think that they would say I'm fair. I think the majority of people would say, wow, she was extremely demanding, but I learned a lot and she was really fair. On the flip side of that, I think they'd say I'm really repetitive because I repeat myself all the time because that's about clarity of the vision, right? And I'm going to double, double treble down. So somebody comes to me and then I don't know what thing to work on. I'm like, but wait a minute, we have the debt and the dirt and that. So drop everything else and do something that works to one of those three things. So I'm definitely a repeater of ideas and a repeater just in the sense of like, I think it's really important for clarity.

A (22:16)

I like that you said I'm very firm, but I'm also very fair. I find that that's a characteristic. You know, I come from a family of teachers and my mom's a teacher. My Sister's a teacher. And that was one thing my mom would always say. Like she was known as kind of the, the scary teacher at school. But she, at the end of the year, all of her students would love her because she was. They realized it was for their good, it was for their benefit that. That firmness. And I think you, you hit on something true, is that if you are not firm, you will get walked over. How do you, like you said you don't suffer fools. What's that mindset that you have when you're walking into the rooms that you're walking into in business to know, like, what's the secret to being firm in communication?

B (23:15)

I think the secret is, I would say that it is consistency. Right. I don't think that you can be flip floppy and firm. Like, that's not going to work. You have to be really super consistent. An element of fairness. So I think that you, you know, and, and I do think that the two things go hand in hand because people need to understand where am I in all of this? Like, what bit is my responsibility? What part is what part? Like, and when I say fairness, because, you know, again, like, so little in the world is fair. But when you have consistency and when you're fair with people, you have, you know, I did every job, Jefferson. It's like I really was a person that worked their way up. I started in a cupboard in fashion pr. I packed the boxes, I packed the samples, I wrote the notes, then I got onto a desk. Then, you know, you kind of like running around back show at fashion shows and like laying flooring. I worked in production. It's like I did every single thing on the way up. Which gives you this unbelievable appreciation of every person's part in a job or in a production or in a. Right now, you know, it's like the clothing organizations. I understand the junior merchant's job because I was there. It's like I know that stuff. And I think that when you are a firm person coming in with a level of understanding and appreciation for what every single person brings and delivers is a really good place where people feel seen and oftentimes the work isn't fair. Right. It never feels that way. But if you feel that you're seen and you're appreciated and there is an understanding about what it is that you uniquely bring, then I think that that changes everything. And I think that I get and have gotten to where I've gotten to because people have an understanding that I wasn't given anything, that I worked for it. And I appreciate them and I have an understanding of them. And, um, and. And in that way, I think people work extremely hard for me and towards the things that I need because they feel that intrinsically.

A (25:34)

I'm going to come back to this part that we talked about specifically on how to speak with directness, being firm, having ambition as a. As a woman again, because these are things that I can't express nearly as well as somebody else can. And so my question is, like, when you see all these, like you've been on Shark Tank, when you've seen all these men saying, this is how to do business, this is how to do it, and you come in here going, yeah, I can do it just as well and be able to spin five plates at the same time. What do you, what do you want to say to those men in the moment? What are they. What are we, you know, missing when it comes to. Is there like an unlock to say this is a special way or is. Let me ask. I'm going to. I'm talking right now because I find the subject. I desperately desire to be able to help people, and especially women, speak with more directness. And there's sometimes I feel like I miss the point and it's because I haven't been where they've been and I haven't stood where they stood. And that sometimes makes me feel helpless. And so when you give advice to women, what do you tell them? What am I missing?

B (27:07)

No. Well, first of all, I. The idea that you even think about it like that, I think is such an excellent starting point. And what I wrote about in the book in Start With Yourself is this idea of not allowing your emotions to do your decision making. And I think for a lot of women, that is like a default, right? We are people pleasers. We have a lot of fear connected to how we might be perceived or, or, or valued. We have a lot of guilt, right? Like mum. Guilt is an actual, real thing. And so in this book, so much of what I talk about is how emotions will kind of dictate your decision making. And I think that what I wanted to be able to convey is this idea that oftentimes women have been socially conditioned to avoid the exact behaviors that create wealth, that create visibility, that create leadership opportunities. And men don't have quite the same kind of difficulties in expressing themselves or in managing their emotions, which doesn't impede their decision making in the same way. And so what I wanted to do was kind of create a book that really dismantled a lot of the lies that we've been sold about this stuff. This is supposed to be like a wake up call for ambitious women. Because if you want power and you want money and you want a career and you want a family and you want all of those things, you're not going to get that kind of hiding behind soft ambition. We have to have audacity. We have to get okay with the fact that there's going to be some discomfort that that discomfort might be from somebody else around you. And Jefferson, what is important right now and what I want to be clear about. And men can agree with this as well as women, but I think that we are desperate for more women in positions of power right now, not just in business, but in our economies, in our governments, politically. It's really clear to me. And I think there is just a set of rules that exist in the culture that mean that women feel. And they're deeply ingrained thoughts, right? Like deeply ingrained thoughts that exist. And so what I wanted to do was be, you know, a model for what is possible. Because I really believe, like, you can't be what you don't see. And if we're constantly put this kind of idea of like to be a good woman, there are all of these things that you have to do that's really going to hold women back. So what I tried to do was just have a level of honesty about what it takes. And what in our own behavior can change and what in our own style of communication about the things that we really want has to change in order to, to kind of shift the mentality really forward. Like that's what I really care about right now.

A (30:12)

Before we get going, I want to talk to you about Element. I know that in my busy lifestyle there's something that has to do with hydration that I cannot seem sometimes to get a hold of, of just drinking enough water. My body will just go, coffee, you should have coffee. And my body also says, but please give me water. And so one solution, big solution that we've had in my family is Element lmnt. Element provides electrolytes. It's like this little packet. They come in different ways. But this one that I like to have is just a little salt packet that you rip out and you pour it into your water. I do about half so it's not too salty. I like to eliminate flavor. And I love it anytime after a workout, during a workout, after a run, when I'm on the go, I like because it's just really no mess. Now my kids, they love it. They call it salty water. They really like the seltzer version. I'm not a carbonation fan, but they are. And so they love it every time that they get it. In fact, they treat it as almost like a dessert. So they will have dinner, and then my son will beg for salty water. And so we let him have probably about half of it because he doesn't need to drink too much before he goes to bed, obviously. And so that's how we love Element. It is just made for people that are on a mission, just like you and just like me. And they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order. You can head on over to drinklmnt.com jefferson and try risk free today. That's Element Smart hydration for people going places. And now back to the episode. And let me tell you, Emma, you did it. Okay? All that you wanted to do with this book, all right? You did it. What I really appreciate that you do in your book, and I have it in my hands right now, is you have these old thoughts and the new thoughts, which I thought was great. It is so good. Not only do we get a baseline of where you've come from, what all you've been through, what you do with your husband and your kids and the life and the balance and everything is really how you see things and what you do. What I think is so well done, is you will lay out these old thoughts. And we all know what that is. These old scripts in our head of, I'm not going to be enough. I have to do this. The only way to achieve X is I have to go through Z and Y. And then you come up with these new thoughts, and you have these new thoughts right after it, after you kind of give the lesson. And the new thought is what turns the old script on its head. You say, you don't have to do that. And you know what? I'm a living example of that. And so many of your lessons, when it comes to career, when it comes to family, when it comes to life balance, it is a series of new scripts and new thoughts that I think are excellent. Can I share with you one of my favorite.

B (33:07)

Yeah, tell me.

A (33:08)

Yeah, okay, so this is one of the ones you have in career, and this. This is one that hit me is the old thought is, you're owed mentorship and opportunity. And so I thought, like, okay, that's. Boy, that's true. In my life of times where at least in the legal profession, you know, you're. You're. It's a sense of, you're owed Certain things. And there's. That can feel that way. Like, people will go, oh, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna chase this, because nobody's doing it for me. I guess nobody wants to help me. It's just all me. And I'm not going to waste the time. And the new thought that you have after you talk about the story is you are the creator of your own career, and the responsibility for it is yours, too. And I thought, okay, Emma. All right, Emma. That was good. It was so good. Of like, hey, nobody else is going to do that. And I think a lot of that. And I want to go into this real quick. So is, you are the oldest, I believe, of four.

B (34:12)

Yeah.

A (34:13)

Okay. And you had a single mother. Okay. And I'm curious, you know, how much of the mindset that you have, the title of the book has to do with that girl who didn't finish high school, went to work, is. Was the. I'm the oldest of four, right? You are that. That. Yeah, I'm the oldest of four. Yeah.

B (34:36)

I love this.

A (34:37)

This is why we're kindred souls.

B (34:39)

This is it. This is it.

A (34:40)

That's right. These old souls. Right, that you didn't really have. Like, me, like, we. We didn't really have it. You didn't really have a childhood. You know, there's gaps of your life that you had to be the. The little parent, the little spouse. You had to take on opportunity, you had to take on things, you had to forego other enjoyment for the work that was ahead. And I find a lot of these principles that you teach are, you know, lessons that are straight out of your. Your life and how you do things. Now.

B (35:18)

I think that you're completely right about that. And, you know, it's so interesting because so many people have asked me that question, oh, my God, what was it like? You know, I never for one second felt sorry for myself as a kid. Like, I never imagined, like, that this thing was put upon me, because where I come from, like, you just helped your mum. Like, what are you gonna do? You know, it's like, yeah, I could make, you know, a dinner for six people when I was 12. But that's been a really useful skill. I could clean the house. I could, you know, do a parent teacher conference at 12 years out. You know, I was raised in a way where there was no other choice. And so there's a maturity level that comes with that. There's a lot of, you know, less, I guess, less forgiving and less kind of great things that come out of that. But at the end of the day, it was a net positive for me because by the time I was in the workplace, which again was very young because I dropped out of high school, I. I had such a bar, like I knew how to get things done. I was such a self starter because nobody ever woke me up for, you know, school. I had to wake everybody else up and make packed lunches and iron school shirts and get three kids out of the house. Sometimes I would just go home and watch Oprah. I wouldn't even bother. But you know, for me it was not an imposition. It was like I got a head start in life because this was my reality. And, and when I got into the workplace, I was like, wow, I am so capable. I'm so bloody capable. And so I think that when you take, you know, and I think about this with my own kids, you know, because I do have four and nobody, they have everything done for them and somehow it kind of robs you from like, like who you're going to be, you know, And I'm like trying to, I'm not trying to manufacture hardships for my kids that sometimes I think I should do, you know, like they would be so much more capable. But I think it's a huge part of who I am and why I have done what I did. Because there was, there was no one, there was no one out there coming to get me. I took full responsibility for myself. And at the end of the day, this book is about self leadership. It's about self responsibility and this really great stuff that is out there when you suddenly have that realization, like there was no guy coming to rescue me. There was no boss, there was no mentor. I learned from Oprah. I learned from people in the magazines. I learned from like the bosses at my work experience. And when I say learned, like I would just copy those people. That's what I did. Like Oprah would say something good, I would write it down and I would copy it. For years I sat with my boss, like behind me so she could see my screen. And that was the early days of online shopping. And everyone in the office was like, how annoying is it that you sit in front of this woman because you can't do your online shopping? And I was like, it's amazing. I write down everything this woman says and when she has a good line, I use it on my new business calls. And it was like, you know, no one was coming to mentor me. And so to me, especially now that I get asked like, could you mentor me? And I do. I look up like so many of my staff and so many women. I do a call every day on the way to the office, eight o', clock, I get on the phone, I speak to somebody for half an hour. But you can't wait for that stuff, right? You can't let it stop you. And what I wanted to make sure people understood is we have to make sure that our biggest enemy is not living in our own head. You know, like, I have this friend, and I quote her in the book Darren Von Furstenberg, and she says, the most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself. I know I can talk myself into or out of anything. And so when it comes to, like, looking for people to help me, I'm like, well, I better be helping myself first, because if one of these magical people ever does come to help me, I want to be ready. And it just turns out that that wasn't my experience. And so it's like I feel like I have gifted myself, myself my whole life, right? It's like I was the best I had. So it's like I just have to work with that because there was nothing else. And I feel like that's not a bad place. There's not a bad thing.

A (39:34)

No, not a bad thing at all. No, I, when I read that you were the oldest of four, I was like, okay, a lot of this is making sense here. Yeah, exactly. I think anybody who's the oldest child, you kind of have that old school mentality. You know, your parents didn't have to, I mean, they didn't have to ask me to do anything. You just did it. It's very different from the youngest that.

B (39:57)

Right.

A (39:58)

That we have. So. Yeah, it, I, I, I relate to that. And what I find is so instructive to me and, and everyone is that if you think that opportunities should be just put on your plate, you're just. That's the wrong thinking.

B (40:20)

It's the wrong thinking.

A (40:22)

You have to grab your own plate and start finding places that are serving food. Like you have. You have to go. And there's a sense of hunger. I think that you have to have.

B (40:32)

There's a sense of hunger. Listen, you might need to go out and kill an animal. I don't know where you can't, like, where are you going from. There might not be any shops open there might not. You know, it's like you got to do what you got to do. But, you know, there's something amazing about doing, like, making the best of yourself. You Know, there's something incredible when you go, God, like, I came from here and now this is what life looks like. Like, that's incredible. But it just takes such a long time. And I feel like, you know, again, I speak about this so much in the book because I feel like social media has kind of conditioned us into this ide that, you know, you can listen your way to success, that. That somehow you can consume your way to success. And I'm like, no, you can't. You gotta work. You don't have any choice. You know, you gotta, like, do something that you kind of don't like and get pretty good at it. To be given an opportunity to do something that you like a little bit more and then eventually something that you really love. But my experience is that it's always been that way. It's always been incremental. It's always been a little bit. And I've got as much out of it as I've been willing to give. But there's never been a moment where someone's gone, like, here you go, lucky girl. You know, here's something that you didn't work for. You got to. You got to put the work in. It's just that simple. Ambition has to find you working.

A (41:54)

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B (43:55)

Yeah. You know, I'm obsessed with comedy, and I've watched, like, every Chris Rock special, like, back to front. I could recite them for you. But one that he always talks about, he's like, at some point, he gets, like, this house, this, like, beautiful dream house. And he says his house is so good that he keeps a bag packed because he can't even imagine that, like, this would be his life. Like, that this is, like, his. And he owns it. And I kind of, like, feel like that so much. I interviewed Cardi B. On my podcast last week, and Cardi, like, to me, I was like, I don't know that I have much in common with Cardi B. I was like, oh, that. That. That feeling of, like, never wanting to be poor again. Like, the first words she said to me, I was like, we are the same. Me and Cardi B. We're the same person. But that is something that I think for so long, long haunted me. This idea that what I'd worked for could be taken away or would be taken away and I would be poor again. And not even, like, just poor, but without the ability to make my own decisions and to decide, like, what I do. And so that is something that I feel like I. It's always going to be with me. I am always keeping the proverbial bag packed because I wake up in this beautiful room in Bel Air, and I'm like, that can't be my life. Like, it just cannot. There's a little piece of that that I don't want to get rid of. There's a piece of that that I am, like, kind of keeps me hungry. It keeps me, like, thinking, like, what's next? What's next? Don't rest on your laurels. Don't get lazy. There's also A piece of that, that goes, there's thousands of hundreds of thousands of millions of kids like me. And so how could you be useful and actually take what it is that you've learned and you've done and make sure that other people that sort of naturally have less opportunity could maybe have more? Because I know that I can pinpoint all the moments of lift that happened and it wasn't always because I was outmaneuvering everyone. Like some stuff just like, you know, the stars aligned. But I guess that the answer to your question is that that is always in the back of my mind and it somewhat fuels me. I think that I've got out of the mentality now that it can all be gone tomorrow. But I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't always there.

A (46:18)

Like a scarcity type mindset, like you're always, you never know when it's going to stop, so you got to keep going.

B (46:24)

Yeah, and there is a, there is, listen, I talk about scarcity a lot in the book because I never envisage that because I have something more that you're going to get less. Right. And I think that is a very female thing. That's not how I think at all. I don't, I don't believe in that. But I do have that feeling for me, you know, I, when I met my husband, I said to him, I don't go back in lifestyle. Like this is where we are now. I'm only going one way, it's going forward. So you have to come with me or that this is not going to work. And thankfully he was up for that challenge, that romantic challenge that I gave him. But that is, that is really important to me. Like, it's like I have been very purposeful about the life that I built and I think it's my job to keep me moving forward, to always be in motion and to never kind of rest and imagine it's done. I never, I will never feel like that.

A (47:18)

I know that in my own world, you know, I, I, we all do. And I know you talk about, in your book about imposter syndrome and that sometimes people, especially women, can almost out talk themselves out of an opportunity. Is that something that you find often?

B (47:37)

Yeah, I mean, I see it around me often. You know, I never had, and this is hard for people to understand, I never had imposter syndrome. And it was literally down to my mum. My mom is like such a fierce lady, you know, she is like five foot nothing. She's like white and blonde and she has these, like, daughters that are, like, you know, black with, like, big, curly hair. And my mom, Mum was fierce. She was like, you are gonna need to learn to look after yourself. And you have to know, Emma, that you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you. And I swear to God, Jefferson, I grew up my whole life thinking exactly that. I was like, nobody's better than me. Like, literally, you could go to Eton or to Harvard, but you're not better than me. And I really imagined that. Like, I was. I took it in. And so in my head, I thought, if I work really hard and if I throw everything that I've got at, I can be as successful as anybody else. But that was my starting point. You know, my mum gave me that. And because I've done a lot of stuff, because I've had a lot of businesses that worked, but I've also had a lot of failures, which I talk about in the book, I got more confident. I got the ability to lose something, to not be good at it, to start a business, to fail. And for that not to be like, there's something wrong with me. I was like, that situation didn't work out. That was the wrong set of circumstances. I made this mistake, but I never internalized it and was like, I'm not right through it. So I've always had this kind of, like, distance to what it is that I'm doing, and I never thought that anything was about me. I was just like, that was that, you know? And I want to impart that on as many women as I can. Because imposter syndrome is fake. It's not real. It's made up. It's in your mind. And so you have to create the conditions and change the way that you think about what is possible for you.

A (49:35)

Emma, what are thoughts that you live by that other people, even maybe listening or reading your book, might think are radical? Are there things that you live by that other people go, whoa, this is something that is definitely against the grain of what we've been told.

B (49:56)

Yeah. Oh, gosh. Okay. This is going to be the popular part for me in the podcast. This is where everyone falls in love with me. Jefferson. Okay, I've got it. Okay. Well, I think that work life balance is a myth, and we all know that. I think that. Anyone who's been listening to me knows that. I think it's the wrong goal. Right? Like, I. I have seen in my life. And because I believe that life and work and it all comes in seasons, there is a moment to be all in, to be pedal to the metal, and to go for what it is that you want with no, you know, no fucks given. Like, no. Like, you're just gonna go in. And there is a time when, you know, like, right after you have a baby, for example, when you don't have a choice to do that, you have to, like, lean out a little bit and you have to take care of your body and take care of the baby and find a new pace for yourself. But I think that this idea that we've created in culture, that somehow there's some mythical bal balance that exists, and until you've found it, nothing's going to work out for your life. That's B.S. like, you need, like, to have a great career and a great business. Like, you need proximity. You need visibility. You can't, like, you don't get good over a zoom call. Like, you need to be in the room. If you're not, like, around me, you're not going to see how I move. You're not going to understand, like, the pace of what we're trying to do, what the, like, company is all about. So I think that that is something in culture right now that we've just got specifically for women. Like, stop looking for balance. Look for the things that you want and go after that and understand, like, the timing of your life. I also think the timing of your life is a really important one. And something I think about, like, this idea that, you know, women have been told just, like, wait and wait and wait to have a child. Like, there is no perfect time, but there is a biological reality. Right? I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy, but I'm also saying waiting until you're 39 years old probably isn't a good idea. So the idea that, you know, it's like, you've got to find this, that mystical partner that arrives on a white horse and solves all your problems. I'm like, find someone that you love and have a baby, like, maybe slightly earlier than what you've been told. It won't be the end of your life. It's okay. Like, it's just. It's okay. And I think that what happened is that, like, people got so scared because modern parenting has gone bananas. Like, parenting didn't get more difficult, but the expectations got difficult. And that's why in this book, I talk so much about having a vision for yourself. Not vision boarding, not manifestation. Like, how is it that I want to live? What is important to me? What are my principles? And the stuff that I care about because then you can measure yourself up against that as opposed to, like, some chick that you saw on Social that, like, cut her kids sandwiches into stars. Like, that's not important. What's important is, like, what's important to you, and it's different for you than it is for me. And so what I like to do is set my own standards. I don't like to be impacted by all of the noise that is, like, coming in and around me. I like to say, this is important to me, and these are my goals as a parent, and these are my goals as a wife, and these are my goals as a businesswoman. And I'm going to go after that without apology. Like, that's what I think is important. And tune out all the noise. Because you know what's insane? Like, nobody's watching you. Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you. So you can pretty much, like, just do your thing and not be worried about it, because people don't have time. They literally don't have time.

A (53:28)

Absolutely no notes. I can tell you. I have no notes off that. Emma, start with yourself. A new vision for work in life. Immigrit this is so, so good. I am honored to be able to support it. I want everybody to read it, and I'll be sending make sure that everybody in my community knows how important this book is. Emma, thank you so much for your time. It's always, you're a diamond.

B (53:52)

This was so lovely.

A (53:54)

Please tell your family hi for me.

B (53:55)

And until the next thing to yours from me. Take care, my love.

A (53:59)

Take care.

B (54:00)

Thank you. Bye.