Stop Letting One Person Control Every Conversation - The Jefferson Fisher Podcast

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[00:00]
Michelle
I kind of snuck out to ask you a secret question because it's, my husband gets hurt about this, but he talks so much, like he just won't like stop talking. And I feel like the only way I can say anything is to interrupt him. He's, it's, he's sweet, he's the honey. He just is one of those people that doesn't pause and one thing leads to the next. I don't know how to have like a back and forth conversation with him. We've been married 26, 26 years, Jefferson. But what do I do? Like, he doesn't even have awareness of how he's controlling the entire conversation because he just won't stop talking. And if I say anything and I interrupt, he says, wait, I'm still talking. Wait till I finish.
[00:40]
Molly
And it's driving me crazy.
[00:42]
Michelle
Help me. I love him. I don't not love him. But it makes it very fatiguing to have a one way conversation every time we talk. Thanks, Jefferson. How do I know if you answer?
[00:52]
Jefferson
I, you know if I answer when I say this right here. Hey, Michelle, Michelle, y' all been married 26 years and just now you found this out? Like you've been, you knew this since the day I've been dating. You've been together 26 years and just now you're saying he talks so much. You knew this, you knew this. This is part of also why you love him. Imagine if he was the opposite for a second. Imagine if he was the opposite and you, he was like pulling teeth. He wouldn't be the same person. You wouldn't love him as much. All right? So know that that's part of his personality. And most likely it's very akin to like one of his, one of his parents, right? Probably somebody. One of his mom or dad was also very talkative because it's, it's one of those inherited communication traits is talking so much they don't know when to stop. Okay, what can you do? What are some practical things that you could do? One is we're going to do this in a spirit of love. You already told me many times you love this man. I love that we're gonna do this in a spirit of love. That means when you need to interrupt him, when you need to interrupt him because he's talking way too long. I need you to have a little bit of a smile on your face as if you're saying this in love playfully. Maybe it's like you called him a honey. Maybe you need a. You can either use his Name or use some other kind of affection name. So if his name was, I don't know, let's just say Joe, I need you to be Joe, right? I need you to be playful a little bit. Use his name or if it's honey, sweetie, anything, mi amour, whatever it is, hey, be able to do that, okay? What it does is going to get him to stop just, just for a second. Listen to me. Don't wait for a pause in the conversation because it ain't coming. Okay? So even if these mid sentence, if it's gotten to a point where you can't really take it anymore, I need you to go ahead and interrupt and insert that right there, okay? Now if it is something that he has shared before and he's repeating it, it's okay for you to say, hey, you probably may not remember, you did tell me this before. I have heard this, right? It's good for them to know because they're obviously, they're not remembering that. Or if you need to. What I like to say is, hey, I need the headline first. Meaning get me to the top of the story. Because right now, like a newspaper, you have me on page, you know at the bottom it says see page 3F. And you got me way back there. I need you to give me to the top of the story here. And so what I like to say is, can I get the. I need the headline. I need the headline. Or I think one thing would be great. I would love to see this with you and you, your honey. All right, Is three make a plan. Truly have a conversation with him that says, hey, you know I love you. You love me, don't you? He's going to say, yes. There are times that you know and I know that you use way more words like you're pretty, you use that. You love words. We know you love a lot of words. And sometimes my cup of your words gets full. And once it's full, I can't hear anything else. And I know I want to hear what you have to say, but I can't hear anymore. So to make sure that you and I can communicate well, what will be helpful for me in this relationship to communicate to you to let you know, hey, we might need to taper this off because most likely when people talk so much, they just don't know how to land plane. So they just keep it in the air because they really don't know how to land it. And so they will just continue to talk. Create it as a fun process in game where it's light hearted where you say, hey, what can I do? What can I say? And maybe you create a code word where it's, you know, I don't know, I'm going to go crazy here. Maybe it's. You just say, hey, Bongos. Like, come up with a name. Okay, that is goofy enough, playful enough that you're not offending him, you're not cutting him off. And you're also having to stand your ground and say, this is getting too much for me for him to know it's a word that y' all have agreed to, to say. You gotta wrap it up. Here's the countdown. You got. You got five more seconds, 10 more seconds to get this thought done. Maybe he's a sports guy and you go, hey, shot clock started. Like, you need to be able to. To count this down to know he has a time at the end of it. That's what I would go with, because it sounds like you have a beautiful relationship. Keep that, maintain that. Don't overthink this. Say it. He already knows. He's using a lot of words. So ask him. Involve him in the process of, hey, what can I do that's going to save my sanity? That's going to allow me to say, hey, you've filled up the top of the cup. It's now overflowing. I'm not really hearing anything. If anything, it's making me more aggravated. Give me. What's the headline here? Hey, shot clock's down to 10, right? Just be as playful as you want. That's the key takeaway. Be playful with it.
[06:35]
Molly
Hi, my name is Molly. In my generation, I feel like everyone just texts all the time, and I do not like texting. I express that to someone and they still just text. And I want to ask you, is there a better way to approach that conversation or is it just, you can't change people. That's just the way they are, and that's just not my person.
[06:54]
Jefferson
Hey, Molly, I like you. Here's what I need you to know. One, texting is communication. So I need you to see at a base level that people are wanting to communicate with you. I agree on it's not your favorite mode of communication. Wasn't that long ago that texting didn't exist and people still figured out how to communicate. Right. So I hear you on that. Two, my hope would be when you hear this response, that you would soften your approach a little bit to texting, because there's a practicality of where we're at right now, of this is the norm and the default how people first connect with one another. 3. That being said, you are absolutely within your right to say, you know what? I'm not really a texter. I'd much prefer just to call you. And our communication. If you think of me, call me. And don't worry about texting me. Texting is not my favorite. Call me and I call you. You have that ability. And I kind of love that there is a place. And you know this. When texting is not enough, you have to hear human voice, to hear their words, to see them in front of you, to feel that warmth, right? You can't feel the warmth of a smile the same way you can in the smile of an emoji. It doesn't hit the same. So when you feel like, hey, this is somebody who matters to me a lot, and maybe it's dating, maybe it's a friend or whatever it is, and you voice that to them, that says, hey, I am the way I do friendships. I do not text. I would much prefer you call me. You call me. And if I don't answer the call, leave me a voicemail. I'm old school that way. This is how I handle it. And if they can't respect that, then they are not your people. Then there are people who will say, you know what? It's worth it to me. I care enough about you to say, if I want to communicate with you, this is what I need to do. Yeah, you're worth it. Then hear me, you're worth that. If that's your requirement for communication and friendship and relationship, you are worth that. And what's the cost a phone call? What's the cost to them? If you are not worth picking up the phone and hearing your voice, then my goodness, how in the world would ever the friendship be worth it to them? You are worth picking up the phone and hearing your voice. And if that is how you communicate, one, I kind of applaud you in that sense to say, hey, I really care about this type of deep connection. I need that. I need that in my life. You know what? Probably I need more of that, too. I need more of that personally. Me, Jefferson, I need more of that in my own life, where we get so quick day in and day out, and we only communicate by text and if we just call that person. So maybe you've. You've done something and aroused something to somebody else. Listening to this and saying, you know what? I've been relying too much on text. I need to call my friend. For those of you who know what it's like in your life when a friend just randomly calls on you, just. Just calls out of the blue and they go, no, I just wanted to see how you were doing, just thought of you, wanted to call and hear your voice. It's like just a full ray of sunshine hit your face. Like you just feel like somebody cared about you. So I want you to know, yes, you are absolutely entitled to want that, to need that, to say, this is my requirement in relationships and friendships. I don't do text. I don't do text. If all these places and shopping places can say, hey, we're cashless, you can be textless. You know, I mean, like, my goodness, just say, I'm a textless. I'm a textless romantic. How about that? We'll go with that. I love it. You stick with that. And the people who don't want to do that, you're spot on. They're not your people. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Pendulum. I don't know about you, but when I have busy schedules, whether it's in summer or kids and schools back in session, I don't make all the best eating decisions. I have that afternoon crash or maybe I'm trying to grab something salty or sugary or sweet, and I know that my diet's all over the place. Metabolic Daily by Pendulum has changed that for me. It's a little capsule that I take with food, and what it does is it helps as a prebiotic, make sure that my cravings don't come out of nowhere so I stay fuller longer. I don't have sugar cravings. I sleep better, I have better energy, and it just helps my overall metabolism because if your gut's not right, then really nothing is right throughout the day. So you can go right now to pendulumlife.com Jefferson used to go Jefferson and get up to 20% off your first order. Pendulumlife.com Jefferson used to Go Jefferson for 20% off. And now let's keep going.
[12:10]
Molly
Hi, Jefferson. I'm a longtime follower of your advice on Instagram and I'd love your perspective on something. My name is Asha. About 15 years ago, I legally changed my name because my birth name never felt like me. My current name is the name everyone knows me by, including my young daughter, and is deeply meaningful to me. The problem is that my mom still refuses to use it. She continues to call me by my birth name and even keeps that name in her phone. I understand that changing my name may have felt painful or even rejecting to her. And I've genuinely tried to have empathy for that. But it's been 15 years, and hearing my birth name still brings up a lot of difficult feelings for me. It's also becoming confusing for my daughter because she only knows me as Asha. I know I can't make someone change their name in their phone or choose to use my legal name. And I know how to communicate a boundary. Like, I need you to call me by my name. But where I get stuck is the consequence. I don't want a consequence to feel like a punishment or an ultimatum. But I also don't know how to protect myself when someone repeatedly refuses to acknowledge something as fundamental as my name. So my question is, how do I respond when someone who loves me refuses to recognize me as I am now? And where's the line between enforcing a healthy boundary and trying to control someone else's behavior? I really appreciate what you're doing. Thanks so much for your thoughts on this.
[13:44]
Jefferson
Thank you, Asha, because that's your name, Asha. Thank you. Where's the line between drawing a healthy boundary and using a boundary to control somebody else's behavior? The line is the intention behind it. Because you can use a boundary to try and manipulate, to try and, you know, be a hedge around away from different kinds of behaviors that are both harmful or productive. Or is it out of this is something that is protecting me? Because it sounds, Asha, that you're having a lot of pain associated with this, and I don't blame you. Everybody knows you by this name. Your daughter knows you by this name. And here your mom is openly, for 15 years, refusing to accept that. I love that you're able to kind of step into her shoes for a second and say, hey, I can see that there's also a part of this that has to be kind of painful, that as part of choosing my name, I have somehow rejected that. And maybe she's feeling like your mom feels like in the way you've rejected her by not wanting to have that name. There's also a place that both things can be true of. It's been 15 years. This is who everybody knows you as. They never felt the way to you. So how are we going to communicate this? I'm assuming that y' all have had a lot of conversations about this already, and I'm very, very curious about what her answer would be to the question
[15:30]
Carol
of
[15:33]
Jefferson
what is it bringing up for you? What is preventing you from calling me by this name? What would. What does it mean to you when you call me? If you were to call me Asha, instead of my given name. What would she have to admit to herself if she called you by the name that you go by now? Right, because that's her work. That's her work to deal with. When we talk about the boundaries, level of it, here's what I need you to know, because I love that you say, I don't want to feel like a punishment, but a consequence is a consequence, Asha. If I were to continue to press the red button and the sign says if you press the red button, you're gonna have to, you know, leave the room. Well, that's the consequence of it. There is. It's math, right? It's how there's inputs and there's outputs. And so by her choosing this path, she's also choosing the consequence. So that is nothing that, as you said, that you can control. So here's some practical takeaways that I would give. For one, I want you to see that taking a step away from this is your mother's choice, not so much yours. In other words, you're willing to have an open relationship with her, a loving relationship with her, and here are the requirements for that. You are allowed to have requirements in a relationship, no matter if it's romantic, if it's friendship, if it's somebody you're related to, you are allowed. You have the right, the privilege of having requirements. And one requirement for you is that you use your given name. There's nothing more important to somebody than the sound of their own name because it's deep. It's how you identify who you are. I mean, there's a reason why my name isn't, you know, William. It's. It's Jefferson. And if my mom only wanted to call me William, I like to go by Jefferson. There's a point of that, says that she might be rejecting me, and that might be how you're feeling. So how do we put this in terms of a boundary? I want you to understand that part of the consequence might need to be that you take some space away from each other. And I mean that maybe you've already tried that. The consequence could be, hey, I don't respond to that name. If you continue to call me by this name, then I need to take some distance away. Then I need to reevaluate our relationship. Then I need to take a pause, and I'll respond to you in a few weeks. You see how it's more than just saying, please don't call me that. That's not enough of a boundary. I needed to be much more Assertive and conditional, meaning I. It's not you can't call me that. It's I don't respond to that name. If you, you hear the condition, if you continue to call me that, then three, this is the consequence of saying, if you continue to do this, this is what you're going to get. It's. The choice is yours. Then I'm going to need to take some space. I'm going to need to reevalue this relationship. You feel me? Now, where can we go from here? I want you to know that there is a time and place possibly for the conversation for you to outline. Let's say you haven't addressed this with her. For you to say this is very painful for me. And if you love me, then you. You don't want to cause me pain. Maybe there is somewhere where it's baby steps. And when she feels maybe more comfortable calling you something that's more akin to daughter or my love or something that is she can associate with you, that she's used maybe your. Your whole life. My mom, my mom's always called me sweetie, like something that is still a loving, endearing, meaningful term that does not cause her the same level of pain. Because this stuff goes deep. This is really deep stuff. So maybe there's a conversation that you can have around that. And three, what I need you to know is that when you make the consequence of a boundary conditional, it leaves it entirely in their hands to accept it or not accept it. And if they don't accept the boundary, then they are accepting the consequence of it. And that is not your fault. That is not punishment. Hear me. When you have a consequence to your boundary, it is not a punishment. You are doing exactly what you need to protect yourself. And it sounds like that's sounds like you have all the right tools at your disposal in place, Asha. So I would one, reconsider how you put up the boundary. Two, leave the door open with questions over what would it look like? What would it mean to you if you called me by the name that I go by now? What would that sound like to you? How would that feel to you? Rather than getting upset that she's not. So there's a lot of onion peeling that's going to need to happen. And three, I need you to be okay with putting a very hard line consequence. That means distance. That means space for both of you to reevaluate, take some time, reconsider before the conversation comes back. That's what I would hope for the relationship between you and your mom, great question.
[21:14]
Carol
Hi, Jefferson. My name is Carol and my issue is mostly with my daughter, who's on the opposite side of the political field to the point where she sometimes says I'm racist, which is really hard to hear. We tried having a conversation with, I try to use some of your tools so it doesn't escalate, but it gets difficult sometimes and then we end up not talking about it because either of us don't want to get in an argument. But I, if I do voice my feelings, I'm afraid she'll cut off contact with my granddaughter. So it makes it hard to come to an understanding or a middle ground.
[21:57]
Jefferson
Wonderful question. Rule number one for me is always if you can't avoid politics, avoid it because it changes. Not even the news can agree on what's happening in politics. And there are certain things that it's not about the actual issues, it's about the actual heart issues behind it. And that that's whole lot harder and all that deeper. So that's rule number one, if you can, I prefer you avoid it. Number two, if it's now become a thing in the conversation and you saying that she thinks somehow that you've made some kind of derogatory remark and she now perceives this in some ways to your character and that really bothers you and scares you. I think that is absolutely valid. Here is where rather than trying to prove points, I need you to start sharing and asking about her perspective. I love that you're using the tools about not escalating things. Keep doing that because that's probably going to save a lot of heartache and grief. What I now need you to do is ask questions such as what am I missing? How can we talk about the things that are important to you? And how can I share my perspective without upsetting you in some way? Help me understand what I'm missing. Talk about how you two communicate and how you can talk about the process of how you're communicating about this or whether y' all even want to talk about politics. So you rather than it letting, letting it be the elephant in the room, what I would prefer you do is to say, hey, I can tell and I'm sure you can see too that when we start talking about politics, things kind of fall apart and it doesn't really help either one of us. Are you good? And with us just having an understanding that it's you see things and I see things and it's that both things can be true and fair and continue. Let's talk about your granddaughter. Let's talk about all the other amazing things. Let's talk about the other 99% of things that are going right in your world. So there's that conversation. 2. I would love for the conversation to begin with something along the lines of help me, help me understand how this has become so important. This topic has become so important to you. Right? Help me understand where you come from or where you learned this or how long you've held onto this belief. Don't get into the you know, why can't you just understand? Why can't you just get it? As soon as you go into the why can't you just be like me kind of communication, the other person is just going to close up. Now I'm not saying you do that. I'm saying a lot of people do and it's natural, it's easy to fall into that trap. But it's going to close off the line of communication. So what I need you to do is ask her for help. That could be a really big step in yalls relationship. I would pray that it would be for you to say help me understand not just about this topic because it's not about the topic, it's about how this topic became so ingrained with you. How can we communicate about this? How can I give my answers genuinely without you thinking that I am trying to be narrow minded about this. What would I need to say and express for you to understand that I truly want to keep an open mind about this conversation? You see, you can go two different paths. We can either decide not to talk about politics or if we're going to talk about it, let's do it in a way that's going to open it up and say nobody's pointing fingers in this discussion. We're simply hearing things out. So I want you to use words that show perspective. When you need to voice a response that you have a point of view on something, do not begin with you know, I just don't get or I don't understand or you just and you never. Instead of that I want you to be able to say I see things differently. Instead of I disagree. Nah, I don't agree with that. Instead of that I see things differently, I have a different perspective. I take another approach. Anytime that you use those kind of words, it's not a going to get her nearly as defensive. And so that allows more conversation, be fluid and flow and that would be my recommendation. If you can just talk about your granddaughter. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you About Gusto. I Jefferson, believe it or not, I have owned probably three to four businesses before. I am doing this in this world, and there are a lot of different things that I did that were just for the fun of it. Bless my wife's heart of hobbies. I'm like, I want to start this out. And you know what? I have used Gusto as a payroll system for every single one of them. I think I'm on my like 6 payroll gusto account. This is how good this is. I don't compare them to anybody else. Gusto is in an absolute league of their own. If you own any kind of business or want to start anything and you're an entrepreneur, payroll is one of the scariest, most heartbreaking burn moments of a business owner because you're not really sure what it means, how to do it, what's the best way to do it. You want to make sure that you're taking care of your people. But are they on a salary? Are they hourly? And don't even get me started on payroll taxes. And especially if people are working remote. And while that does, listen to me when I tell you that Gusto is all you need when it comes to searching for a payroll provider. They make it easy, they make it seamless, and you can actually get on the phone with a real human when you have real questions. So take it from me, Gusto is what's up when it comes to payroll. Right now you can go to Gusto.com Jefferson and use the code Jefferson and get three months free when you run your first payroll Gusto.com Jefferson Three months free, which is incredible when you use the code Jefferson.
[28:32]
Unnamed Elderly Woman
And now let's keep going by Jefferson. I am 79 years old and have a brother, age 75 who is a super successful Hollywood personality in the 80s and 90s. He's worth about 100 million. My question is, is it wrong of me to expect him to help me financially? My husband is partially disabled now. We've been married 50 years and are very happy. We are also not allowed to visit my brother in LA or on his 3000 acre farm. Thank you very much. I've never expected anything from him and I've always been close to him as children. I'm very proud of him.
[29:28]
Jefferson
My answer is going to be yes. I do think it is wrong to expect someone to help you financially. I do not think the hope or the thought is wrong. I think the expectation is because their life is their life and your life is your life. And if you expect somebody else, even despite your own circumstances, if you expect and put that on them, then you're setting yourself up for the relationship. Now being about the expectation of the unsaid. And why wouldn't they? Don't they know? Shouldn't they see now you've made that the relationship rather than simply the love for one another. And it sounds like there is a lot that is into that question, because it doesn't make clear why the distance, what caused it, how long there's been distance. I love that you and your husband are happy and you've been married for so long and that sounds wonderful and healthy. So I want to clarify that the hope of somebody, your brother helping you, that's not wrong. I do believe that the expectation that he help you is wrong. Sure, it would be nice, but that's not what the relationship has ever been about. As soon as you put money in any kind of relationship, family, friends, otherwise, as soon as you insert the issue of money between you, there is a reason why money is the root of all evil. It separates, splits, even the closest of people, even those who love each other so much. When money's involved, greed happens. And maybe, maybe there's the chance that we can look at this in the most positive light. Because I prefer to look at it in the most positive light, really the most real light. I want to be. Let's put in the most genuine light. I see two different sides. One, the brother is just a greedy, want to keep it all to himself, you know, McScrooge. Or two, he doesn't want money to be a thing in any of his relationships. Now, if he gives money to others in the family but doesn't give to you, that's different, that's telling. I know people in my life that in their family, it's the whole issue of like, do parents passed on money to their kids? Or is there expectation of getting something when somebody else is successful? And when somebody has, you know, their star shoots upwards as everybody else expects something. And then that goes into the question of is the relationship, was it ever really real or is it just the now, the where's my gimme, gimme, where's my handout? That does not sound. I'm not saying at all. That's, you know, because what I hear you saying is I've never asked him for anything. I love that. Stay that way, Stay that way. I don't think that the hope inside of that is wrong for you to feel that way. I want you to understand how you feel about it. I think it's totally valid. It would be nice. It really would. It would be super nice and helpful. That's his choice, not your choice. It does sound like there's a bigger conversation on how estranged you two are. I would love to hear what the response would be to you tossing up the question of, hey, before you and I leave this earth, I just want to know, have I ever done anything? Am I missing anything that would have brought us closer together? Was there ever a time that I. I missed the step or I missed the chance to grow closer with you or show up better as a sister for you or show love to you and just pose that question and see what kind of response that you get? Because your brother and sister and y' all are now at a stage of life when these kind of conversations, if they left unsaid, then they'll never be finished. So I encourage you to have that conversation and really focus on the marriage that you have and the beauty that y' all have created in all the years. So all the best to you and your family.

Summary6 min read

Episode Overview

Title: Stop Letting One Person Control Every Conversation
Host: Jefferson Fisher (Civility Media)
Date: August 11, 2026
Theme:
This episode centers on communicating with confidence, especially when someone dominates a conversation or doesn’t respect your boundaries. Jefferson answers listener questions with practical strategies for fostering balanced dialogue, upholding personal preferences in communication, and maintaining healthy relationships—even when conflict or emotional distance emerges.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. When One Person Dominates Every Conversation

Listener: Michelle
Topic: How to communicate with her excessively talkative husband
Key Points:

Acknowledge Personality Traits
- Jefferson points out that people who talk excessively often inherit this trait from family and are usually not self-aware about it.
  
  "Don't wait for a pause in the conversation because it ain't coming."
  (Jefferson, 03:02)
Interrupting with Grace
- You don’t need to wait for a pause to contribute. Interrupt—gently—with love and playfulness, using an affectionate nickname or the individual's name to get their attention.
  - Example: “Honey,” “Joe,” etc.
  - Keep tone light to avoid coming off as harsh or confrontational.
Managing Repetition & Over-Talking
- If your partner is repeating themselves, it’s okay to kindly tell them you’ve heard the story before.
Request for “The Headline”
- Ask for the main point upfront if you get lost in detail:
  
  “Can I get the headline?”
  (Jefferson, 04:28)
Create a Playful Signal
- Develop a fun, private codeword or signal that means “wrap it up”—like “bongos” or “shot clock.”
- This shared signal makes boundary-setting collaborative, not adversarial.
Collaborative Conversation
- Have a candid, loving conversation about conversational habits and mutual expectations.

Notable Quote:

"It's good for them to know... they're not remembering that...Create it as a fun process, a game where it's light-hearted, where you say, 'Hey, what can I do? What can I say?'"
(Jefferson, 04:55)

2. Setting Boundaries on Texting vs. Calling

Listener: Molly
Topic: Preferring phone calls over texts in the texting-dominant culture
Key Points:

Texting is Communication, But Not for Everyone
- Jefferson acknowledges texting as valid but emphasizes personal comfort:
  
  “There's a practicality... this is the norm and the default.”
  (Jefferson, 07:03)
Directly Communicate Your Needs
- It’s okay to say, “I’m not really a texter – please call me instead.”
Higher-Value Connection
- Hearing someone’s voice often brings emotional warmth missing in text.
  
  "You can't feel the warmth of a smile the same way you can in the smile of an emoji. It doesn't hit the same."
  (Jefferson, 08:07)
“Textless” Is Valid
- Just like businesses are "cashless," you're allowed to be "textless" in relationships. Hold out for people who respect your preference.

Notable Quote:

"If you are not worth picking up the phone and hearing your voice, then my goodness, how in the world would ever the friendship be worth it to them? You are worth picking up the phone and hearing your voice."
(Jefferson, 08:41)

3. Enforcing Boundaries with Name Preferences

Listener: Asha
Topic: Mother refusing to use her chosen name
Key Points:

Intent of Boundaries
- Healthy boundaries protect, not control. The line is drawn by intent.
  
  “The line is the intention behind it…”
  (Jefferson, 13:44)
Consequence ≠ Punishment
- The consequence of crossing a boundary (e.g., in response to continued name refusal) is natural—not a punitive ultimatum. It’s about self-respect and self-protection.
  
  “A consequence is a consequence… by her choosing this path, she's also choosing the consequence.”
  (Jefferson, 16:14)
Assertive Communication
- Clear, conditional communication: "If you continue to call me by my birth name, I won’t respond. If it continues, I may need to take space."
- Keeps agency with the boundary-crosser.
Mutual Understanding
- Encourage reflective questions to mom: “What is making it difficult to call me by my current name?”
Endearments as a Bridge
- If directly using “Asha” is hard, maybe start with “daughter” or another term of affection as an intermediate step.

Notable Quote:

"When you have a consequence to your boundary, it is not a punishment. You are doing exactly what you need to protect yourself."
(Jefferson, 18:56)

4. Navigating Political Differences with Family

Listener: Carol
Topic: Political divides straining her relationship with her daughter
Key Points:

Avoid Contentious Topics If Possible

“If you can't avoid politics, avoid it because it changes. Not even the news can agree on what's happening in politics.”
(Jefferson, 21:59)
Prioritize Understanding over Persuasion
- Use questions like “Help me understand what I’m missing” and “How can I share my view without upsetting you?”
- Focus on “how to communicate” about the issue, not just the issue itself.
De-Escalation
- Use non-defensive language:
  - “I see things differently.”
  - "I have a different perspective.”
Shift Focus
- Concentrate on common ground—like the granddaughter—when discussions grow tense.

Notable Quotes:

“There are certain things that it's not about the actual issues, it's about the actual heart issues behind it. And that's a whole lot harder and all that deeper.”
(Jefferson, 22:11)

“Use words that show perspective… anytime you use those kind of words, it's not going to get her nearly as defensive.”
(Jefferson, 25:41)

5. Family Dynamics and Financial Expectations

Listener: Unnamed Elderly Woman
Topic: Whether it’s fair to expect financial help from her wealthy brother
Key Points:

Hope vs. Expectation
- Hoping for help is natural; expecting it can damage the relationship.
  
  “Their life is their life and your life is your life. And if you expect somebody else... then you're setting yourself up...”
  (Jefferson, 29:29)
The Dangers of Money in Family
- Introducing money into close relationships often breeds resentment or complication.
Open, Loving Communication
- Rather than focusing on money, consider discussing the deeper emotional distance:
  
  “Before you and I leave this earth, I just want to know, have I ever done anything?... Was there ever a time that I missed the chance to grow closer with you or show up better as a sister?”
  (Jefferson, 31:53)
Value What’s Good
- Appreciate the happiness and stability within your own immediate family.

Notable Quote:

“As soon as you put money in any relationship... even those who love each other so much... when money's involved, greed happens.”
(Jefferson, 30:13)

Memorable Moments

Playfulness as an Antidote:
- Jefferson’s advice to use playful codewords like “shot clock” or “bongos” for managing conversation flow is both practical and charming (04:50).
“Textless Romantic”:
- Labeling oneself as “textless”—just as businesses can be “cashless”—offers an empowering reframing for people frustrated by modern communication norms (09:19).
Consequences Aren’t Punishments:
- Reframing boundaries as self-care, not control, is a recurring, empowering message.
Focusing on Process, Not Just Content:
- Particularly in family disagreements, Jefferson stresses “talking about how we talk,” not just what we talk about.

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:00 – 06:35]: Michelle’s question about her talkative husband, and how to interrupt with kindness.
[06:35 – 12:10]: Molly on texting vs. calling and asserting preferences.
[12:10 – 21:14]: Asha’s boundary issues with her mother not using her chosen name.
[21:14 – 28:32]: Carol on political divisions with her daughter (“I see things differently” toolkit).
[28:32 – 32:25]: Financial expectations and family relationships.

Closing Summary

This episode is packed with rich, relatable communication challenges and actionable, compassionate advice. Jefferson Fisher’s guidance is rooted in empathy, clarity, and the belief that small shifts in language and attitude—playfulness, directness, gentle boundary-setting—can profoundly change conversations, relationships, and ultimately, lives.

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Transcript14 lines

[00:00]
Michelle
I kind of snuck out to ask you a secret question because it's, my husband gets hurt about this, but he talks so much, like he just won't like stop talking. And I feel like the only way I can say anything is to interrupt him. He's, it's, he's sweet, he's the honey. He just is one of those people that doesn't pause and one thing leads to the next. I don't know how to have like a back and forth conversation with him. We've been married 26, 26 years, Jefferson. But what do I do? Like, he doesn't even have awareness of how he's controlling the entire conversation because he just won't stop talking. And if I say anything and I interrupt, he says, wait, I'm still talking. Wait till I finish.
[00:40]
Molly
And it's driving me crazy.
[00:42]
Michelle
Help me. I love him. I don't not love him. But it makes it very fatiguing to have a one way conversation every time we talk. Thanks, Jefferson. How do I know if you answer?
[00:52]
Jefferson
I, you know if I answer when I say this right here. Hey, Michelle, Michelle, y' all been married 26 years and just now you found this out? Like you've been, you knew this since the day I've been dating. You've been together 26 years and just now you're saying he talks so much. You knew this, you knew this. This is part of also why you love him. Imagine if he was the opposite for a second. Imagine if he was the opposite and you, he was like pulling teeth. He wouldn't be the same person. You wouldn't love him as much. All right? So know that that's part of his personality. And most likely it's very akin to like one of his, one of his parents, right? Probably somebody. One of his mom or dad was also very talkative because it's, it's one of those inherited communication traits is talking so much they don't know when to stop. Okay, what can you do? What are some practical things that you could do? One is we're going to do this in a spirit of love. You already told me many times you love this man. I love that we're gonna do this in a spirit of love. That means when you need to interrupt him, when you need to interrupt him because he's talking way too long. I need you to have a little bit of a smile on your face as if you're saying this in love playfully. Maybe it's like you called him a honey. Maybe you need a. You can either use his Name or use some other kind of affection name. So if his name was, I don't know, let's just say Joe, I need you to be Joe, right? I need you to be playful a little bit. Use his name or if it's honey, sweetie, anything, mi amour, whatever it is, hey, be able to do that, okay? What it does is going to get him to stop just, just for a second. Listen to me. Don't wait for a pause in the conversation because it ain't coming. Okay? So even if these mid sentence, if it's gotten to a point where you can't really take it anymore, I need you to go ahead and interrupt and insert that right there, okay? Now if it is something that he has shared before and he's repeating it, it's okay for you to say, hey, you probably may not remember, you did tell me this before. I have heard this, right? It's good for them to know because they're obviously, they're not remembering that. Or if you need to. What I like to say is, hey, I need the headline first. Meaning get me to the top of the story. Because right now, like a newspaper, you have me on page, you know at the bottom it says see page 3F. And you got me way back there. I need you to give me to the top of the story here. And so what I like to say is, can I get the. I need the headline. I need the headline. Or I think one thing would be great. I would love to see this with you and you, your honey. All right, Is three make a plan. Truly have a conversation with him that says, hey, you know I love you. You love me, don't you? He's going to say, yes. There are times that you know and I know that you use way more words like you're pretty, you use that. You love words. We know you love a lot of words. And sometimes my cup of your words gets full. And once it's full, I can't hear anything else. And I know I want to hear what you have to say, but I can't hear anymore. So to make sure that you and I can communicate well, what will be helpful for me in this relationship to communicate to you to let you know, hey, we might need to taper this off because most likely when people talk so much, they just don't know how to land plane. So they just keep it in the air because they really don't know how to land it. And so they will just continue to talk. Create it as a fun process in game where it's light hearted where you say, hey, what can I do? What can I say? And maybe you create a code word where it's, you know, I don't know, I'm going to go crazy here. Maybe it's. You just say, hey, Bongos. Like, come up with a name. Okay, that is goofy enough, playful enough that you're not offending him, you're not cutting him off. And you're also having to stand your ground and say, this is getting too much for me for him to know it's a word that y' all have agreed to, to say. You gotta wrap it up. Here's the countdown. You got. You got five more seconds, 10 more seconds to get this thought done. Maybe he's a sports guy and you go, hey, shot clock started. Like, you need to be able to. To count this down to know he has a time at the end of it. That's what I would go with, because it sounds like you have a beautiful relationship. Keep that, maintain that. Don't overthink this. Say it. He already knows. He's using a lot of words. So ask him. Involve him in the process of, hey, what can I do that's going to save my sanity? That's going to allow me to say, hey, you've filled up the top of the cup. It's now overflowing. I'm not really hearing anything. If anything, it's making me more aggravated. Give me. What's the headline here? Hey, shot clock's down to 10, right? Just be as playful as you want. That's the key takeaway. Be playful with it.
[06:35]
Molly
Hi, my name is Molly. In my generation, I feel like everyone just texts all the time, and I do not like texting. I express that to someone and they still just text. And I want to ask you, is there a better way to approach that conversation or is it just, you can't change people. That's just the way they are, and that's just not my person.
[06:54]
Jefferson
Hey, Molly, I like you. Here's what I need you to know. One, texting is communication. So I need you to see at a base level that people are wanting to communicate with you. I agree on it's not your favorite mode of communication. Wasn't that long ago that texting didn't exist and people still figured out how to communicate. Right. So I hear you on that. Two, my hope would be when you hear this response, that you would soften your approach a little bit to texting, because there's a practicality of where we're at right now, of this is the norm and the default how people first connect with one another. 3. That being said, you are absolutely within your right to say, you know what? I'm not really a texter. I'd much prefer just to call you. And our communication. If you think of me, call me. And don't worry about texting me. Texting is not my favorite. Call me and I call you. You have that ability. And I kind of love that there is a place. And you know this. When texting is not enough, you have to hear human voice, to hear their words, to see them in front of you, to feel that warmth, right? You can't feel the warmth of a smile the same way you can in the smile of an emoji. It doesn't hit the same. So when you feel like, hey, this is somebody who matters to me a lot, and maybe it's dating, maybe it's a friend or whatever it is, and you voice that to them, that says, hey, I am the way I do friendships. I do not text. I would much prefer you call me. You call me. And if I don't answer the call, leave me a voicemail. I'm old school that way. This is how I handle it. And if they can't respect that, then they are not your people. Then there are people who will say, you know what? It's worth it to me. I care enough about you to say, if I want to communicate with you, this is what I need to do. Yeah, you're worth it. Then hear me, you're worth that. If that's your requirement for communication and friendship and relationship, you are worth that. And what's the cost a phone call? What's the cost to them? If you are not worth picking up the phone and hearing your voice, then my goodness, how in the world would ever the friendship be worth it to them? You are worth picking up the phone and hearing your voice. And if that is how you communicate, one, I kind of applaud you in that sense to say, hey, I really care about this type of deep connection. I need that. I need that in my life. You know what? Probably I need more of that, too. I need more of that personally. Me, Jefferson, I need more of that in my own life, where we get so quick day in and day out, and we only communicate by text and if we just call that person. So maybe you've. You've done something and aroused something to somebody else. Listening to this and saying, you know what? I've been relying too much on text. I need to call my friend. For those of you who know what it's like in your life when a friend just randomly calls on you, just. Just calls out of the blue and they go, no, I just wanted to see how you were doing, just thought of you, wanted to call and hear your voice. It's like just a full ray of sunshine hit your face. Like you just feel like somebody cared about you. So I want you to know, yes, you are absolutely entitled to want that, to need that, to say, this is my requirement in relationships and friendships. I don't do text. I don't do text. If all these places and shopping places can say, hey, we're cashless, you can be textless. You know, I mean, like, my goodness, just say, I'm a textless. I'm a textless romantic. How about that? We'll go with that. I love it. You stick with that. And the people who don't want to do that, you're spot on. They're not your people. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Pendulum. I don't know about you, but when I have busy schedules, whether it's in summer or kids and schools back in session, I don't make all the best eating decisions. I have that afternoon crash or maybe I'm trying to grab something salty or sugary or sweet, and I know that my diet's all over the place. Metabolic Daily by Pendulum has changed that for me. It's a little capsule that I take with food, and what it does is it helps as a prebiotic, make sure that my cravings don't come out of nowhere so I stay fuller longer. I don't have sugar cravings. I sleep better, I have better energy, and it just helps my overall metabolism because if your gut's not right, then really nothing is right throughout the day. So you can go right now to pendulumlife.com Jefferson used to go Jefferson and get up to 20% off your first order. Pendulumlife.com Jefferson used to Go Jefferson for 20% off. And now let's keep going.
[12:10]
Molly
Hi, Jefferson. I'm a longtime follower of your advice on Instagram and I'd love your perspective on something. My name is Asha. About 15 years ago, I legally changed my name because my birth name never felt like me. My current name is the name everyone knows me by, including my young daughter, and is deeply meaningful to me. The problem is that my mom still refuses to use it. She continues to call me by my birth name and even keeps that name in her phone. I understand that changing my name may have felt painful or even rejecting to her. And I've genuinely tried to have empathy for that. But it's been 15 years, and hearing my birth name still brings up a lot of difficult feelings for me. It's also becoming confusing for my daughter because she only knows me as Asha. I know I can't make someone change their name in their phone or choose to use my legal name. And I know how to communicate a boundary. Like, I need you to call me by my name. But where I get stuck is the consequence. I don't want a consequence to feel like a punishment or an ultimatum. But I also don't know how to protect myself when someone repeatedly refuses to acknowledge something as fundamental as my name. So my question is, how do I respond when someone who loves me refuses to recognize me as I am now? And where's the line between enforcing a healthy boundary and trying to control someone else's behavior? I really appreciate what you're doing. Thanks so much for your thoughts on this.
[13:44]
Jefferson
Thank you, Asha, because that's your name, Asha. Thank you. Where's the line between drawing a healthy boundary and using a boundary to control somebody else's behavior? The line is the intention behind it. Because you can use a boundary to try and manipulate, to try and, you know, be a hedge around away from different kinds of behaviors that are both harmful or productive. Or is it out of this is something that is protecting me? Because it sounds, Asha, that you're having a lot of pain associated with this, and I don't blame you. Everybody knows you by this name. Your daughter knows you by this name. And here your mom is openly, for 15 years, refusing to accept that. I love that you're able to kind of step into her shoes for a second and say, hey, I can see that there's also a part of this that has to be kind of painful, that as part of choosing my name, I have somehow rejected that. And maybe she's feeling like your mom feels like in the way you've rejected her by not wanting to have that name. There's also a place that both things can be true of. It's been 15 years. This is who everybody knows you as. They never felt the way to you. So how are we going to communicate this? I'm assuming that y' all have had a lot of conversations about this already, and I'm very, very curious about what her answer would be to the question
[15:30]
Carol
of
[15:33]
Jefferson
what is it bringing up for you? What is preventing you from calling me by this name? What would. What does it mean to you when you call me? If you were to call me Asha, instead of my given name. What would she have to admit to herself if she called you by the name that you go by now? Right, because that's her work. That's her work to deal with. When we talk about the boundaries, level of it, here's what I need you to know, because I love that you say, I don't want to feel like a punishment, but a consequence is a consequence, Asha. If I were to continue to press the red button and the sign says if you press the red button, you're gonna have to, you know, leave the room. Well, that's the consequence of it. There is. It's math, right? It's how there's inputs and there's outputs. And so by her choosing this path, she's also choosing the consequence. So that is nothing that, as you said, that you can control. So here's some practical takeaways that I would give. For one, I want you to see that taking a step away from this is your mother's choice, not so much yours. In other words, you're willing to have an open relationship with her, a loving relationship with her, and here are the requirements for that. You are allowed to have requirements in a relationship, no matter if it's romantic, if it's friendship, if it's somebody you're related to, you are allowed. You have the right, the privilege of having requirements. And one requirement for you is that you use your given name. There's nothing more important to somebody than the sound of their own name because it's deep. It's how you identify who you are. I mean, there's a reason why my name isn't, you know, William. It's. It's Jefferson. And if my mom only wanted to call me William, I like to go by Jefferson. There's a point of that, says that she might be rejecting me, and that might be how you're feeling. So how do we put this in terms of a boundary? I want you to understand that part of the consequence might need to be that you take some space away from each other. And I mean that maybe you've already tried that. The consequence could be, hey, I don't respond to that name. If you continue to call me by this name, then I need to take some distance away. Then I need to reevaluate our relationship. Then I need to take a pause, and I'll respond to you in a few weeks. You see how it's more than just saying, please don't call me that. That's not enough of a boundary. I needed to be much more Assertive and conditional, meaning I. It's not you can't call me that. It's I don't respond to that name. If you, you hear the condition, if you continue to call me that, then three, this is the consequence of saying, if you continue to do this, this is what you're going to get. It's. The choice is yours. Then I'm going to need to take some space. I'm going to need to reevalue this relationship. You feel me? Now, where can we go from here? I want you to know that there is a time and place possibly for the conversation for you to outline. Let's say you haven't addressed this with her. For you to say this is very painful for me. And if you love me, then you. You don't want to cause me pain. Maybe there is somewhere where it's baby steps. And when she feels maybe more comfortable calling you something that's more akin to daughter or my love or something that is she can associate with you, that she's used maybe your. Your whole life. My mom, my mom's always called me sweetie, like something that is still a loving, endearing, meaningful term that does not cause her the same level of pain. Because this stuff goes deep. This is really deep stuff. So maybe there's a conversation that you can have around that. And three, what I need you to know is that when you make the consequence of a boundary conditional, it leaves it entirely in their hands to accept it or not accept it. And if they don't accept the boundary, then they are accepting the consequence of it. And that is not your fault. That is not punishment. Hear me. When you have a consequence to your boundary, it is not a punishment. You are doing exactly what you need to protect yourself. And it sounds like that's sounds like you have all the right tools at your disposal in place, Asha. So I would one, reconsider how you put up the boundary. Two, leave the door open with questions over what would it look like? What would it mean to you if you called me by the name that I go by now? What would that sound like to you? How would that feel to you? Rather than getting upset that she's not. So there's a lot of onion peeling that's going to need to happen. And three, I need you to be okay with putting a very hard line consequence. That means distance. That means space for both of you to reevaluate, take some time, reconsider before the conversation comes back. That's what I would hope for the relationship between you and your mom, great question.
[21:14]
Carol
Hi, Jefferson. My name is Carol and my issue is mostly with my daughter, who's on the opposite side of the political field to the point where she sometimes says I'm racist, which is really hard to hear. We tried having a conversation with, I try to use some of your tools so it doesn't escalate, but it gets difficult sometimes and then we end up not talking about it because either of us don't want to get in an argument. But I, if I do voice my feelings, I'm afraid she'll cut off contact with my granddaughter. So it makes it hard to come to an understanding or a middle ground.
[21:57]
Jefferson
Wonderful question. Rule number one for me is always if you can't avoid politics, avoid it because it changes. Not even the news can agree on what's happening in politics. And there are certain things that it's not about the actual issues, it's about the actual heart issues behind it. And that that's whole lot harder and all that deeper. So that's rule number one, if you can, I prefer you avoid it. Number two, if it's now become a thing in the conversation and you saying that she thinks somehow that you've made some kind of derogatory remark and she now perceives this in some ways to your character and that really bothers you and scares you. I think that is absolutely valid. Here is where rather than trying to prove points, I need you to start sharing and asking about her perspective. I love that you're using the tools about not escalating things. Keep doing that because that's probably going to save a lot of heartache and grief. What I now need you to do is ask questions such as what am I missing? How can we talk about the things that are important to you? And how can I share my perspective without upsetting you in some way? Help me understand what I'm missing. Talk about how you two communicate and how you can talk about the process of how you're communicating about this or whether y' all even want to talk about politics. So you rather than it letting, letting it be the elephant in the room, what I would prefer you do is to say, hey, I can tell and I'm sure you can see too that when we start talking about politics, things kind of fall apart and it doesn't really help either one of us. Are you good? And with us just having an understanding that it's you see things and I see things and it's that both things can be true and fair and continue. Let's talk about your granddaughter. Let's talk about all the other amazing things. Let's talk about the other 99% of things that are going right in your world. So there's that conversation. 2. I would love for the conversation to begin with something along the lines of help me, help me understand how this has become so important. This topic has become so important to you. Right? Help me understand where you come from or where you learned this or how long you've held onto this belief. Don't get into the you know, why can't you just understand? Why can't you just get it? As soon as you go into the why can't you just be like me kind of communication, the other person is just going to close up. Now I'm not saying you do that. I'm saying a lot of people do and it's natural, it's easy to fall into that trap. But it's going to close off the line of communication. So what I need you to do is ask her for help. That could be a really big step in yalls relationship. I would pray that it would be for you to say help me understand not just about this topic because it's not about the topic, it's about how this topic became so ingrained with you. How can we communicate about this? How can I give my answers genuinely without you thinking that I am trying to be narrow minded about this. What would I need to say and express for you to understand that I truly want to keep an open mind about this conversation? You see, you can go two different paths. We can either decide not to talk about politics or if we're going to talk about it, let's do it in a way that's going to open it up and say nobody's pointing fingers in this discussion. We're simply hearing things out. So I want you to use words that show perspective. When you need to voice a response that you have a point of view on something, do not begin with you know, I just don't get or I don't understand or you just and you never. Instead of that I want you to be able to say I see things differently. Instead of I disagree. Nah, I don't agree with that. Instead of that I see things differently, I have a different perspective. I take another approach. Anytime that you use those kind of words, it's not a going to get her nearly as defensive. And so that allows more conversation, be fluid and flow and that would be my recommendation. If you can just talk about your granddaughter. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you About Gusto. I Jefferson, believe it or not, I have owned probably three to four businesses before. I am doing this in this world, and there are a lot of different things that I did that were just for the fun of it. Bless my wife's heart of hobbies. I'm like, I want to start this out. And you know what? I have used Gusto as a payroll system for every single one of them. I think I'm on my like 6 payroll gusto account. This is how good this is. I don't compare them to anybody else. Gusto is in an absolute league of their own. If you own any kind of business or want to start anything and you're an entrepreneur, payroll is one of the scariest, most heartbreaking burn moments of a business owner because you're not really sure what it means, how to do it, what's the best way to do it. You want to make sure that you're taking care of your people. But are they on a salary? Are they hourly? And don't even get me started on payroll taxes. And especially if people are working remote. And while that does, listen to me when I tell you that Gusto is all you need when it comes to searching for a payroll provider. They make it easy, they make it seamless, and you can actually get on the phone with a real human when you have real questions. So take it from me, Gusto is what's up when it comes to payroll. Right now you can go to Gusto.com Jefferson and use the code Jefferson and get three months free when you run your first payroll Gusto.com Jefferson Three months free, which is incredible when you use the code Jefferson.
[28:32]
Unnamed Elderly Woman
And now let's keep going by Jefferson. I am 79 years old and have a brother, age 75 who is a super successful Hollywood personality in the 80s and 90s. He's worth about 100 million. My question is, is it wrong of me to expect him to help me financially? My husband is partially disabled now. We've been married 50 years and are very happy. We are also not allowed to visit my brother in LA or on his 3000 acre farm. Thank you very much. I've never expected anything from him and I've always been close to him as children. I'm very proud of him.
[29:28]
Jefferson
My answer is going to be yes. I do think it is wrong to expect someone to help you financially. I do not think the hope or the thought is wrong. I think the expectation is because their life is their life and your life is your life. And if you expect somebody else, even despite your own circumstances, if you expect and put that on them, then you're setting yourself up for the relationship. Now being about the expectation of the unsaid. And why wouldn't they? Don't they know? Shouldn't they see now you've made that the relationship rather than simply the love for one another. And it sounds like there is a lot that is into that question, because it doesn't make clear why the distance, what caused it, how long there's been distance. I love that you and your husband are happy and you've been married for so long and that sounds wonderful and healthy. So I want to clarify that the hope of somebody, your brother helping you, that's not wrong. I do believe that the expectation that he help you is wrong. Sure, it would be nice, but that's not what the relationship has ever been about. As soon as you put money in any kind of relationship, family, friends, otherwise, as soon as you insert the issue of money between you, there is a reason why money is the root of all evil. It separates, splits, even the closest of people, even those who love each other so much. When money's involved, greed happens. And maybe, maybe there's the chance that we can look at this in the most positive light. Because I prefer to look at it in the most positive light, really the most real light. I want to be. Let's put in the most genuine light. I see two different sides. One, the brother is just a greedy, want to keep it all to himself, you know, McScrooge. Or two, he doesn't want money to be a thing in any of his relationships. Now, if he gives money to others in the family but doesn't give to you, that's different, that's telling. I know people in my life that in their family, it's the whole issue of like, do parents passed on money to their kids? Or is there expectation of getting something when somebody else is successful? And when somebody has, you know, their star shoots upwards as everybody else expects something. And then that goes into the question of is the relationship, was it ever really real or is it just the now, the where's my gimme, gimme, where's my handout? That does not sound. I'm not saying at all. That's, you know, because what I hear you saying is I've never asked him for anything. I love that. Stay that way, Stay that way. I don't think that the hope inside of that is wrong for you to feel that way. I want you to understand how you feel about it. I think it's totally valid. It would be nice. It really would. It would be super nice and helpful. That's his choice, not your choice. It does sound like there's a bigger conversation on how estranged you two are. I would love to hear what the response would be to you tossing up the question of, hey, before you and I leave this earth, I just want to know, have I ever done anything? Am I missing anything that would have brought us closer together? Was there ever a time that I. I missed the step or I missed the chance to grow closer with you or show up better as a sister for you or show love to you and just pose that question and see what kind of response that you get? Because your brother and sister and y' all are now at a stage of life when these kind of conversations, if they left unsaid, then they'll never be finished. So I encourage you to have that conversation and really focus on the marriage that you have and the beauty that y' all have created in all the years. So all the best to you and your family.