Stop Overthinking Important Decisions ft. Hunter Hayes

Summary

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The Jefferson Fisher Podcast

Episode: Stop Overthinking Important Decisions ft. Hunter Hayes
Date: July 10, 2026
Host: Jefferson Fisher (Civility Media)
Guest: Hunter Hayes

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the challenge of overthinking big decisions, personal growth, and the art of self-trust. Musician and songwriter Hunter Hayes joins Jefferson to share his journey through self-doubt, learning to trust his instincts, and the balance between input from others and trusting your own experience. The conversation is rich with metaphors, personal stories, practical strategies, and actionable advice for anyone navigating change or struggling with self-belief. The tone is candid, encouraging, and deeply self-reflective, focusing on authentic communication—whether on stage, in a meeting, or within your own mind.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Outgrowing Yourself and Knowing When to Change

Timestamps: [00:30], [18:47], [19:08]

• Filling the Seats at Your Table

  • Jefferson introduces the metaphor of “filling the seats at your table”—being intentional about which people you allow into your inner circle as you transition through life.
  • “Everybody in life has a table, and I start with empty chairs... I find who are the people, because I'm very selective with who's mentally at my table.” (Jefferson, [00:52])

• Embracing Growth and Transition

  • Hunter emphasizes that you always have the chance to outgrow your current self:
    • “You always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now. To take the opportunity.” (Hunter, [00:38], [18:52])
  • The necessity of evaluating and changing who sits at your “table” (“mentally, emotionally, professionally”), especially during life transitions or when seeking new energy.

Trusting Yourself versus Overthinking

Timestamps: [03:52], [06:39], [07:16], [24:30]

• Balancing Expert Advice with Inner Knowing

  • Hunter discusses being the youngest in the room, often feeling others know more, but realizing he's the one connecting with the audience:
    • “None of them have done any of the meet and greets that I've done. None of them have shaken the hands of the people that I've shaken hands with.” (Hunter, [05:13])

• How Do You Know When to Trust Yourself?

  • It varies case by case; sometimes it's a gut feeling, sometimes it’s about energy or “flow.”
  • "I just noticed and I felt a lot of resistance where I... had a beautiful opportunity to say, guys, I get it. I get it. Everybody's afraid. There's a lot happening. I know that this probably doesn't sink in just yet. Let's just try it." (Hunter, [24:35])

Notable Quote

“If you're going to play the game of what if, if you're going to list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things that could go right.”
— Hunter Hayes ([00:45], [19:08])

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The Concept of “Flow” and Creative Decision-Making

Timestamps: [08:23], [09:23], [09:49]

• Defining Flow State Personally and Creatively

  • Hunter describes “flow” as the sensation of being carried rather than carrying, in both life and on stage:
    • “There's something to the... I feel like I'm being carried. Versus I feel like I'm carrying. Maybe that's it.” (Hunter, [09:27])
    • “Those moments in life where you feel like it's bringing you, inviting you into it versus you having to drag it.” (Jefferson, [09:42])
  • This flow state is universally accessible, whether you’re an artist, office worker, or stay-at-home parent.

• Recognizing When to Act

  • Knowing when to make changes comes from recognizing discomfort or resistance in your current “flow.”
  • “It was just one too many things where I felt like I was climbing up a hill... I was more creative than I'd ever been... but I was experiencing a lot of feeling unheard, feeling misunderstood.” (Hunter, [23:19])

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Therapy, Mental Health, and Self-Work

Timestamps: [11:17], [13:31], [20:02]

• Hunter’s Mental Health Journey

  • Hunter reflects on 15 years of therapy and inner work, beginning as a highly anxious young artist. He shares candidly about confronting deep fears, notably:
    • “A lot of it was around, like, what happens if I'm not like Hunter the artist? Do I lose all my friends?” (Hunter, [14:11])

• Facing Fears and “What Ifs”

  • Hunter’s strategy for coping with overthinking is to examine both the negative and positive “what ifs”—giving equal weight to pros and cons.
  • “For everything that you say that scares the—can I say this? Sure. Scares the sh*t out of you. Yeah. Also, name the things that you would be absolutely blown away if just everything went right.” (Hunter, [19:21])

• We’re Not “Terminally Unique”

  • Jefferson notes the universality of these fears and doubts; everyone worries about being “enough,” losing friends, or being found out:
    • “We all come in thinking we're terminally unique... It's all just the same fear in different flavors.” (Jefferson, [16:08])

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Creative Process and Breaking the Rules

Timestamps: [25:16], [27:09], [28:25], [29:52]

• “Dear God”: The Power of Vulnerable Art

  • Hunter shares the backstory of “Dear God,” a song that broke all industry “rules,” defied A&R expectations, and became one of his most meaningful works.
    • “It was everything I wasn’t supposed to write about... it definitely felt like God just kind of ripping it out of my hands and going, this is taking you too long. We’re just going to do this.” (Hunter, [25:16])
    • People connect so deeply with the song that they get its lyrics tattooed and request it at shows—Hunter recognizes the value of vulnerability and authenticity.

• The Songwriting Process: Conversations Before Creation

  • Every successful songwriting session for Hunter is preceded by 30-45 minutes of genuine, open conversation.
    • “Every room that I get into with co writers, I always bring ideas in. Sometimes they land. Sometimes... the title will change... but I would call it 30 to 45 minutes of conversation that happen for all of us to sort of, like, land... then the song is just there.” (Hunter, [27:58])

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Breaking Patterns, ADHD, and Neurodiversity

Timestamps: [33:03], [35:27], [36:51]

• Creative Brains Work Differently

  • Hunter discusses how learning about his ADHD was a revelation, allowing him to honor rather than fight his brain’s natural wiring.
    • “I've gone from being frustrated with certain ways that it works to... certainly trying to honor it and recognize, okay, I'm not crazy. It really... doesn't work that way. So what do I have to do?” (Hunter, [33:51])
  • Analogizes his process to general aviation: “Every time you go up, you are working with the wind.”

• Negotiating Needs and Compromise

  • He’s learned to say, “I totally hear you... I can't do it that way. If this is the result you want, let me do this. And... let’s just see what happens.” (Hunter, [35:27], [36:52])

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Journaling, Processing, and Practical Approaches

Timestamps: [45:02], [45:14], [47:40]

• Journaling and Musical Expression

  • Hunter journals chaotically, accepting imperfection, but views his real journaling as music creation itself:
    • “A lot of my, like, expression or like, my version of journaling is... working on music... I sit with a song for hours, hundreds of hours, trying to learn what it's trying to tell me.” (Hunter, [45:45])

• Tracking Growth and Using Tools Like Neurofeedback

  • He credits neurofeedback for helping him break out of mental ruts and create new neural pathways:
    • “As patterns get formed in the brain, it's a way... it's a technology that's... approved to clear out... and allow the brain to create its own new neural pathways.” (Hunter, [48:09])

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The Power of Conversation and Mentorship

Timestamps: [49:52], [50:19], [51:03], [52:04]

• Conversations as Self-Discovery

  • Hunter and Jefferson discuss treating conversations (not just songs) as something that can “tell you something” if you allow space to reflect.
  • “Often after conversations happen, you kind of have to go, okay, what was that conversation telling me between these two humans?” (Jefferson, [49:53])

• Seeking Mentors and Practicing Receptivity

  • Hunter pushes himself to reach out for mentorship and enter conversations without predetermined goals, just to listen and be open.
  • “I was, like, in my car trying to pre pave and, you know, Virgo myself into a conversation where I was like, ‘this is... what is my goal? What do I want from this?’ And I just heard God just yell, just like, you need to chill out. You need to just listen.” (Hunter, [50:49])

• Faith and Flow

  • Hunter talks about his faith as deeply conversational and as part of his understanding of creative “flow.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Growth and Fear:
  “If you're going to play the game of ‘what if’... then go ahead and list all the things that could go right.” — Hunter Hayes ([00:45], [19:08])

• On Trusting Yourself:
  “I have to create a threshold where I know how to say, guys, you have to trust me on this... if it fails, it's on me.” — Hunter Hayes ([05:13])

• On Flow State:
  “It feels like I'm being carried. Versus I feel like I'm carrying. Maybe that's it.” — Hunter Hayes ([09:27])

• On Facing Loss:
  “What if I lose all my friends...? You have more space. You have more space and you will connect with someone so much easier because you have the space for them to take up.” — Hunter Hayes ([20:02])

• On Vulnerability in Art:
  “It was everything I wasn’t supposed to write about... and it broke all the rules, man. It’s, like, still one of my top streaming songs.” — Hunter Hayes ([25:16])

• On Conversations and Listening:
  “You talk to God a lot.” — Jefferson Fisher ([50:54])
  “Yeah. It’s very non... I say it’s unconventional. It’s quite conversational.” — Hunter Hayes ([50:55])

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Practical Takeaways

• Evaluate who’s at your “table” and be intentional about which voices you allow to have influence.
• When facing overthinking, give equal weight to what could go right.
• Notice your flow: Are you being carried by life or dragging yourself against resistance?
• Acknowledge both expertise around you and unique personal experience—only you have your own perspective.
• Embrace self-work, therapy, and tools like neurofeedback to aid in personal growth.
• Allow your creative or professional process to evolve; rules can (and sometimes should) be broken.
• Conversations—as in songwriting—are most fruitful when entered with openness, curiosity, and a willingness to listen.

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For Listeners

This episode is a candid look at what it takes to move from doubt and external validation to inner trust—and provides tangible metaphors and practices for anyone seeking to “interrupt their patterns” and make decisions with confidence, creativity, and less overthinking.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Jefferson]

The person who's trying to figure out right now whether or not they need to outgrow the version of themselves they are right now, what would you say to that person?

[Hunter Hayes]

You always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now.

[Jefferson]

To take the opportunity.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah, Take the opportunity.

[Jefferson]

Hunter. What if? I have.

[Hunter Hayes]

If you're going to play the game of what if, if you're going to list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things and go right.

[Jefferson]

The practical takeaways that I love to talk about is you said, hey, I'm going to make some decisions for me right here rather than this committee thing. I'm going to do something independent rather than feeling like life is happening to me. I'm going to make some course corrections here. And there had to be some type, some point in your life where you say, I need others at my table. So I love the metaphor. This is something I apply for me of filling the seats at my table. Everybody in life has a table, and I start with empty chairs. And really, it's your. It could be your parents, your grandparents, whoever your guardians are. Those are the people who are really the only ones at your table. And as you get older, you go to a different table, and then you kind of have to fill them again in kind of your 20s, and then you film again in your 30s. And I. I find who are the people, because I'm very selective with who's mentally at my table. And I feel like you have

[Hunter Hayes]

found

[Jefferson]

this full circle, moment or clarity of who are the people you want at your table.

[Hunter Hayes]

That's. Well, going back to the chapter of going away. Yeah, that was that. And God in the universe kind of did it for me. There were a lot of things that needed to happen. There were a lot of changes that needed to happen. Very scary. Like, I'm going to leave an entire institution behind. And, like, as an artist, there's so many pieces, I've heard a few of the people that I look up to describe it as like, you're the. You're the hub, and there's so many pieces that keep the wheel together. And at the time, I needed to let go of a lot of things. And I wasn't ready to let go of any of those things. And so certain things just started kind of falling off naturally, you know, I remember for you.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

I remember having a conversation with my. I think my agent at the time, and. And I was like, you know, spending more time in California, and I was kind of having a hard time telling him, like, I think I'm gonna go there and be there. Cause what I was trying to say was, does that scare you? And of course it didn't. But he was like, dude, you need to. He's like, you should. He's like, I mean, it'd be great to get some new energy. And he was excited about the idea. And I think that kind of, like, let me sit in it a little bit more. And then everyone else, you know, I talked to another member of my team, was, like, trying to, like, you know, apologize for, like, this shift that I wanted to make. And he was like, well, it's funny because I've noticed in life you tend to find what you're looking for. And he's like, you were clearly looking for new energy and change and doing all those things. So I say that to say yes, but also, like, touching back on something else. I mean, the. Like, yes. Picking the people at your table. This was my chance. I think there was one big shift that happened, and I made one phone call to somebody in this room, and I was like, okay, not me. Here's what I'm doing. I was like, I have played by everyone else's rules because I think another downfall. If I can touch back on that.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, please.

[Hunter Hayes]

We can bullet point all these things so that people can follow along to the way my brain works. But another downfall is I was surrounded by people who have been doing this for longer than I have. And my tendency is to assume everyone knows more than me. And in a lot of ways, yes, absolutely. For the rest of my life, everyone will know more than me. I have so much to learn from everybody, and I am constantly learning how to hold the truth of. Yeah, but so do I. Yeah. And, like, the most important thing I think that I realized in, like, 2018, 19 was, you know, I was having a hard time talking the label into a certain song or this, that, whatever, and I. It kind of started happening when I recorded Invisible and put a song called Invisible out, because it was not, like, the big uptempo radio song, but it was something that I felt very called to. And luckily, like, my team around me knew how important this was, not only for People to understand me, but for me to create more of what I wanted so far as space for people to come and for me to play to and sing to. Space for the audience that I want to sing with. The realization was I am fighting with people in a room who are all brilliant, but none of them have done any of the meet and greets that I've done. Yeah. None of them have shaken the hands of the people that I've shaken hands with.

[Jefferson]

Yes.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know, hugged, talked to, heard what, what everyone had. Like, our meet and greets. Like, we're constantly trying to figure out how to make more time.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

Because we have conversations in these lines and people share their story because of the way that they connect with music. And so I think that learning that. That tipping point, I would say right around 2019, was a big one for me in learning to trust the gifts that I have or the experience that I have or the practice that I've put in. Trust myself. Not in a I know everything, but in a. I have to create a threshold where I know how to say, guys, you have to trust me on this. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, to be in a room with a bunch of brilliant people who've been in the business for 30 years, be the youngest guy in the room and say, guys, I totally hear everything that you're saying. I'm gonna just try this, and if it fails, it's on me. But, like, if everyone can just rally around. But you also have to go into that room knowing that you can't just, like, say it. Cause you've gotta bring the right energy. I feel like I've gotta bring the right energy into the room. I have to know it before I walk in. And so that when I say it, everyone can feel what I'm feeling. Yeah. Whether I communicated well or not.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

And they can feel the trust. They can all kind of put their shoulders back and go, you know what? Okay, fine, I'll go to this.

[Jefferson]

Where is the line for you of knowing? Do I say, you know what? Okay, guys. Yep. Everybody else knows better than me versus no. I'm going to put my flag in the ground and say no. This is something I really believe in. Is it that trust yourself? Like, what's the phrase that. That Hunter Hayes tells himself in that moment?

[Hunter Hayes]

That's a great question. I think it's different based on each case.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know, because, like, the first thing that comes up is we were trying to figure out how. How to do a gig literally less than a week ago. And I Was like, I don't. I'm not feeling flow here. Like, I really. I would love to make this happen, but I'm not feeling the flow.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And I'm hearing everybody tell me, well, this is why you should do it. This is probably why we should consider it. And. And I was just like, I'm just. I'm not feeling it. Yeah. And I got. I got. There were sort of two times where I was like, I hear it, I get it, and I'm just not feeling the flow.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know, and the third time, a new detail kind of emerged, and I was like, there it is. There's the purpose. Okay, I see the purpose now. And I'm. I'm. I'm just going to sit in the backseat because now this is. There's something outside of what I know, and I can. I see that. And I'm going to trust everyone around me to help me pull this off.

[Jefferson]

Is there a phrase that you kind of like, even a word that kind of comes to mind where you think, is it just a gut feeling?

[Hunter Hayes]

Well, I'd love to say it's a gut feeling. And that case is. I use that as an example because I'm so convinced. You know, the first two times that we had this conversation, I was like, everyone is telling me why this should happen, and I'm feeling like this. Maybe shouldn't you need to feel like

[Jefferson]

you can see it, Right. That sense of safety, of like. Well, you keep bringing the word flow.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah, that's a. That's a word.

[Jefferson]

No, that. I love that word. Is that a word you've always used or a new word that you've integrated into yourself?

[Hunter Hayes]

Well, I. I'm learning what it means outside of the stage, because when I'm on stage, I can tell you when I'm in flow.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

There's something that has. Because you have no choice. There's no walking away, you know, whether it be 50 people watching or 50,000 people watching.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

Everyone can feel it.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

That's the ultimate test of, am I here or am I here? You know what I mean? Everyone can tell. I can smile. I can say all the things. I know. The difference between when an audience knows an audience knows when I'm in it, and then audience knows when I'm not.

[Jefferson]

When you're not.

[Hunter Hayes]

And so it's the ultimate, like, exercise, and you're either checking in or you're checking out, you know? So that is where I go back to with Flow State. I. When the band and I, you know, even if it's something that's like really super well arranged. I can tell when we're all just in it, you know, and I can tell when we're all kind of figuring it out, you know.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And so I, I think that's my guide.

[Jefferson]

That's a good one.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know what I mean? Because it feels like it's very, it's, it's not improv per se because there's a lot of structure in what we do. Yeah. But there's something to the. Like I feel like I'm being carried. Yeah. Versus I feel like I'm carrying. Maybe that's it.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Those moments in life where you feel like it's, it's bringing you, inviting you into it versus you having to drag it.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

You know, I think that's a, that's a great way to like picture that for me is I was at a meeting once and a friend of mine, his name's Diego, the way he described this kind of flow state and know it was when he knows that there's creativity in the body is what. Is how he described it.

[Hunter Hayes]

What a beautiful.

[Jefferson]

And I was like, that's, that's the best way I've heard it described. And it doesn't matter if you are an artist because I think we're all artists in some ways.

[Hunter Hayes]

Great.

[Jefferson]

And, or you're at the office or you're in a cubicle or you're a stay at home parent or whatever. There's always this flow state of knowing when you feel like I think I'm good, like I feel like right now I, I like this energy that I'm feeling. And yes, life is good and that doesn't mean it's going to happen. But understanding it's always going to. There's a down and up. But that's why I really love the word flow. Have you. How long has it been? And again, anytime you're like that, I'd rather not. Jefferson, you just tell me which I'm sure you will, that you have because you seem to be somebody who. Very self aware. Have you always. Yeah. Yeah. So whatever work you're doing. Yeah, whatever work you're doing, it's working. How, how many years has it been of we're going to say this kind of self work which believe me, I'm. I'm in it every day too.

[Hunter Hayes]

I saw my first therapist which I don't know if it's considered a. Like looking back, I have a lot of questions because it was set up. It was, it was someone who worked at it was given credit. There was a company that I worked with that handled finances. And for somebody like me, that's a very scary. Still a very scary, like, topic, because when something doesn't go well, it's on your shoulders to figure out.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

Like, you know, it's your name for sure. And so. And I have a lot of stuff around that that's a different conversation. But there was somebody that they had in house to sort of help I. I think help artist slash, help the people working on it, slash, help both sometimes. But that person was actually, like, present in a lot of my meetings with them. But also I had time to work with them separately. And so it started with just like, how do I calm down on the road? Because I was so high strung. Still am. But, like, you can imagine being 18, 19, and, like, all of your dreams are sitting right in front of you, and you're walking into one opportunity after another. That's just like, you're flowing.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

But at the time, there was a lot of fear around, well, you know, how many ways can I screw this up? Yeah. You know, so that was my first person that I worked with, and then I worked with a therapist separately, and we started to understand different things. I started to understand a little bit more of the OCD tendencies, which. That was a whole thing. And then, you know, like, she was the first person that said, okay, what if it all goes away tomorrow? Yeah. Because that was the thing I was so afraid of, you know? And like, okay, what if the thing

[Jefferson]

you're most afraid of happens?

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. And she kind of did that work with me. And I was like. Because, you know, her sentence was like, you've done it before. Can't you do it again? You know? And I think that kind of like, opened a new box. It's been 50. I say all that to say that it's been 15 years of just, like, this experience and this experience and, like, slowly starting to sort of unwrap and everything. Really, honestly, probably getting into the, like the.

[Jefferson]

The.

[Hunter Hayes]

The serious work around 20, 18, 19. I remember, like, one of the most profound days of my life was the year the. We had the solar eclipse pass through Nashville.

[Jefferson]

Oh, yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And we did like a. There was a. Yeah, a whole.

[Jefferson]

You can't just stop it.

[Hunter Hayes]

Well, it was like a whole experience of. It was my first time getting to really dive into some work and some. Some scary questions that I had myself.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And so I think that was. I say that to say that the work that happened that day really started the. The flow for Me working with good

[Jefferson]

questions, bad questions, both depends on what

[Hunter Hayes]

time is it you ask? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was all, a lot of it was around and I've talked about this a little bit, but a lot of it was around. Like, what happens if I'm not like Hunter the artist?

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

Do I lose, do I lose all my friends?

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

Because I work with all of them.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know what I mean? That was when a lot of that kind of came to the surface.

[Jefferson]

That's a huge. That's a huge question and I think a lot of people battle it. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Tiny Health. We know what it's like when something just doesn't feel right. You just feel off. Maybe you're getting plenty of sleep, you, you're eating all the right stuff, but something is just not right where you want it to be. And typically that means something else is going on deeper within you. And one thing that you always need to make sure and check is your gut. Because if your gut's off, then everything is off. Tiny Health fixes all of that. One reason why our family likes it is because you're able to take an at home test, send it, and what they give you back is a personal recommendation of the status and health of your personal gut biome to say, what are some food recommendations that you need to stay away from or what's really good? Here's something that lifestyle decisions you need to possibly be looking at because a lot of times we're just making guesswork. Right. What Tiny Health does is scientifically backed research that gives you actual data to say this is what's really going on inside of you. And when you know and you have those kind of answers, there's something about that kind of peace, especially when it comes to your own health that lasts a whole lot longer. That's a big impact from something that's very, very tiny. So right now you can go to tinyhealth.com Jefferson and get up to $50 off your first order. That's tinyhealth.com Jefferson and now let's keep going. There is what they say in like therapy circles is we all come in thinking we're terminally unique.

[Hunter Hayes]

All right?

[Jefferson]

Nobody can relate to anything that's happening. This is my own special one. I'm a one case wonder right here. And then you really get to learn. Hold up. It's all just the same fear in different flavors, you know, of what am I if I'm not this who am I if I'm not this? Will they still stick around? Will they still. Will they leave? If they know the worst things about me, will they. Will they turn around and run? And I think that is a deeply rooted fear in a lot of people, myself included, of, you know, what. What happens and what artists like yourself get to do is you turn conversations into songs. Right. And you. What you said at the very beginning of this, which I thought was beautiful, is, how do I create a song and then make sure that you can find yourself in it? Like, see yourself, make enough room for you. Where my mind goes, well, that's conversations. How do I make sure that I have a conversation that I can say, I want you to see yourself in this conversation with me where we can have this moment and create something that we can really walk away with in every conversation in my short time with you, I'm going to walk away with something. And I think if everybody takes that moment to ask themselves, what am I walking away from or what am I letting go of? You know, maybe I'm not walking away with anything. You know, maybe I'm leaving something where it needs to be in a conversation. I think that's. That helps round people out so much better. So having that hear you say, you know what? I had to ask some of these big questions. Who am I if I'm not the Hunter Haza here on the radio.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Has to be a question where you got to go to some pretty deep places that sounds like you've come from. Lot of that. I do want to ask some questions for us to kind of think of another person in the conversation. And this is a chance that I would love if we take some of the things that you've learned over the last two years and say, how. How can we give that person advice? And with all self, you know, deprecating aside, because we don't know. We know. We don't know. And we all have probably some level of OCD or ADHD or something. I got my own things. You know, the person who's trying to figure out right now whether or not they need to outgrow the version of themselves they are right now.

[Hunter Hayes]

Hmm.

[Jefferson]

What would you say to that person?

[Hunter Hayes]

You kind of always need to. You, You. You always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now to take the opportunity. Yeah. Take the opportunity. Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And for the person who's saying the same thing of that fear of. Well, yeah, but what if, Hunter, what if I have.

[Hunter Hayes]

If you're going to play the game of what if? And you. Then you have to play for both sides of the team. You have to. If you're going to list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things and go right.

[Jefferson]

Give. Give the cons the same weight as the pros.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. For everything that you say, that scares the. Can I say this? Sure. Scares the. Out of you. Yeah. Also, name the things that you would be absolutely blown away if just everything went right.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know, what if. What if I lose my job? What if. That's what. What if that freedom is what allows me to accept an opportunity that I otherwise wouldn't have taken. What if not having a job means that I don't have to. Like that I'm just open to way more than I. Than I am right now.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

Tomorrow, 24 hours from now, my entire brain shifts. What if I lose? What if I lose all my friends? What if I don't have any friends?

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Yeah, great.

[Hunter Hayes]

You have more space. You have more space and you will connect with someone so much easier because you have the space for. For them to take up.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know what I mean?

[Jefferson]

No, I do. I think I forgot where I heard it. I was saying this to a friend the other day. I saw some interview. I couldn't tell you who. Where. As humans, we are horrible projectors of future things. Of, like, how we're going to feel about it. So if you.

[Hunter Hayes]

You're.

[Jefferson]

And it works for positive and negative. So it's like that fear of, what if I get fired? And you do get fired, you realize, oh, it's not that bad. Like, life's still happening. That big fear I had in life. Oh, I'm actually okay. Or if you really want that promotion and you finally get that promotion, you're like, oh, this is it. Like, I thought this was going to be pretty awesome, but it wasn't. So I think what you're saying is make sure that if you're going to go the what if everything's wrong, you have to pair it with the but what if everything's right?

[Hunter Hayes]

You owe it to yourself. Yeah. You owe it to yourself to. Yeah, that. That's one of my theories, something I've put into practice a lot lately.

[Jefferson]

Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about our place. I have a question for you. When's the last time you considered what exactly kind of cookware you're cooking with? Probably never, because that was. That would have been my answer before I found our place. There are so many chemicals that go on into the cookware that you're actually using what they call like forever toxic chemicals. So it could be Teflon or pfas and they're, they're harmful. Yes, I know. And so if you want cookware that's not only good for you, that's toxin free, but also looks awesome because that's the key. Does it look great? Does it cook great? Our place is where it's at. I, to be honest, I was not sure about cookware because I'm like, am I going to be that crazy about cookware, y'?

[Hunter Hayes]

All?

[Jefferson]

When we did a little move, I was like, here's the box. I am putting our place pots and pans in. Nobody touched them because I need to know where they are as soon as we get in. That's how much I've liked these. So they call them always pans and they're just good frying pans. And then they have perfect pots. Perfect name, right? This four piece set is incredible. And then also we got, they had this wonder oven, which is this cute little toaster oven air fryer that our daughter absolutely goes bananas about for toast. It's fantastic stuff. It looks good. It looks good on the counter. Looks good when you're cooking with it and it's toxin free. If you want to upgrade your cookware today, think no further than our place. Go to fromourplace.com jefferson and use code jefferson for 10% off site wide plus you get a 100 day risk free trial with free shipping and returns. That sounds like check, check, check, check from Ourplace.com jefferson and use code Jefferson and now let's keep going. I know we talked about it, but I want to put it in a different shell, like a different package. How did you know? Like, what was the gut instinct you felt that said, hey, I need to interrupt this cycle and just give it some space for a bit?

[Hunter Hayes]

It was just one too many things where I felt like I was climbing up a hill. Well, there was so much flow in the creative. There was so much like I was in my, you know, at the time. I had a house with a basement and I was working in my basement a lot with no sunlight, with, with all the things that nature gives you. I was working against the grain. I was in a dark room in the basement of my house and I was more creative than I'd ever been. I was feeling a lot and I was putting it in to the work. I was, I was making songs. There was no rules. Nothing had to be anything. I Was working in secret. Yeah. You know, on an album that no one had to hear. And that was another thing. Like, Wild Blue is an album that I made, and it was my rebellious way of being brave by myself. And I was like, if I love this, when it's done, it'll see the light of day. It'll happen if it's supposed to happen. And I was turning in a lot of songs. I mean, hundreds of songs a year. I was experiencing a lot of feeling unheard, feeling misunderstood. I think looking back, I think I might have had a lot of opportunities to say trust me, but I didn't know how to do that yet.

[Jefferson]

You say trust me mean trust me. Yeah. Trust myself.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. Yeah. I. I trust myself. I believe in this.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And I don't think I knew how to do that. I think this was. I think it was exactly what it was supposed to be and that it was a time that was designed to teach me that. Right. And I learned it very slowly, But I just noticed and I felt a lot of resistance where I. Yeah, that's the best way I can say it. I had a beautiful opportunity to say, guys, I get it. I get it. Everybody's afraid. There's a lot happening. I know that this probably doesn't sink in just yet. Let's just try it. And, like, by the grace of God, there's something beautiful that happened during that time is I turned in Dear God.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

Dear God's a song that breaks all the rules. That is. I talk about that song a lot, and I've said it a lot, but

[Jefferson]

I still want to hear it. Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

It was everything I wasn't supposed to write about. It was all the, like, the kind of production that I didn't feel like was ever.

[Jefferson]

Wasn't it? Like, it's still a top 25. Like, top. It was a top.

[Hunter Hayes]

It's one of my top streaming songs.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

That's crazy. It was everything I wasn't supposed to do. And my A R person as a label was like, oh, my God. And I was like, what? And he was like, no, dude. He was like, this. This means. I don't know what we do with this, but this means something. And it started circling around the label, and the label was like. Everyone was talking to me about this song, and I was like, you're not supposed to hear that.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know what I mean? Like, and it was. It was. It definitely felt like God just kind of ripping it out of my hands and going, this is taking you too long. We're just going to do this.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And we, you know, we didn't follow traditional promotion playbook.

[Jefferson]

It did break all the rules.

[Hunter Hayes]

And it broke all the rules, man. It's, like, still one of my top streaming songs for that album, for all of. All of my discography. Wow. Of the songs that went to, let's say, like, the number ones that I've had or the, you know, the songs that were in placement, whatever. Like, this song holds its own in that. In those numbers. And I. I only reference the numbers just because, like, it. It shows that it broke its own rules. And still to this day, like, people come to meet and greet with tattoos from lyrics of the song or, like, ask me to sing it, like, so many times. We'll play a show, and I'll kind of feel the room, and I'll be like, I don't think we should do Dear God tonight. And we do Dear God. And I watch, like, the two people that I've been, like, feeling like they're not connecting with what I'm doing at all. I watch two people just totally drop in, and I'm like, I am wrong about everything. I love it. So I don't know if that answers your question.

[Jefferson]

Oh, yeah. The one person who, like, looks like I'm kind of bored just immediately starts bawling bored.

[Hunter Hayes]

And I'm like, man, what do I. What do I need to do to, like, connect with them?

[Jefferson]

You know, in a nutshell. Tell anybody listening. Tell them briefly what Dear God is. Is about.

[Hunter Hayes]

Because I love that song I sat down with. I'm a big fan of Andy Grammar. We sat down for his podcast, the Good Parts. There's a lot of conversation about faith and religion.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And we sort of unpacked a lot of things that I was trying to figure out at the time. And I had, just so happened, had a title. The deal was Andy was coming. It was late at night. He was coming in to do the podcast, and I was like, if you're down to stay for, like, an hour, I'd love to write. And he was like, deal, I'm in. Because we've been talking about it for years. We do the podcast, which is beautiful, because in every writing room, I feel like we talk for 45 minutes about the topic, and then the song finds its way into the room once we've opened our doors.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, you know, say that again for me one more time.

[Hunter Hayes]

Every room that I get into with co writers, I always bring ideas in. Sometimes they land. Sometimes we can all. We all know what we're talking about. Sometimes I haven't communicated it, or I'm not clear on, or. Or everybody else might be on a different page. Sometimes the title will change. The idea will totally shift. But I would call it 30 to 45 minutes of conversation. That happen for all of us to sort of, like, land.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know, we pull the parachutes and we start floating down to the earth. And then when we land around it, the song is all. It's just there. And it happens quickly. It happens within 30 minutes to 90 minutes max. That's right. So the beautiful part about this song, Dear God, is the 45 minutes of conversation is in the world. Like, you can go listen to the whole thing. It's on a podcast. Right. So we had this conversation. I had this idea that I wanted to write with Andy because of the music that he makes and his messages and the way that he represents so many thoughts and feelings. And it was called Dear God. And I was like, I kind of need to write an angry prayer because on every album, I've had a song about faith, and on this album, I'm wrestling with a lot of things, and so I want to honor that and do that. And at the end of the song, at the end of the album, there's another prayer. But he just started pacing around the room and just saying, like, you know, I had. I was noodling with all these, like, verse things, you know, it's three in the morning, just me and my demons at war again. So I'm calling in, are you listening? You know? And Andy starts pacing the room, and he just starts singing, why does my life have to hurt so much? You know? And we just start going with all these questions, and it's just a song about questions. And the end of the chorus is, dear God, are you sure that you don't mess up? Meaning me. Right. And at the end of the song, we circle around to, like, I know you've tried to teach me this, and I'm sorry, but I'm just having a hard time teaching, learning this right now. And the end just finishes with, you know, dear God, just remind me you don't mess up, like, at the end of the day, asking these questions, knowing that there is an answer and hoping for that reminder. So, yeah, that song just, like, totally changed the rules in so many ways. And, like, yeah, that's

[Jefferson]

awesome.

[Hunter Hayes]

I'm trying to figure out how to put a period on the sentence, but it was a lot of things that I really was afraid for people to hear. And the more people heard it, the more people Were like, that needs to be the lead single. And I was like, what?

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

By all the rule books that you've given me, this doesn't work. And it works.

[Jefferson]

And that. That is one way that has helped you kind of break out of knowing what version of myself can I be? And that is you've taken these what ifs and you're proving to yourself that what I am afraid of turns out to be even better than I ever could have imagined.

[Hunter Hayes]

Consistently. Yeah. I wouldn't say 100 of the time, but sure. And also the things that I'm most afraid of after they happen, I end up in a place that's still better. Yeah. There's still. There's more learning, there's more growing. There's more. All those.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. E. Either way, it's good.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Kind of mentality. This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth. And I like Cozy Earth so much that I'm going to make this entire spot about their house shoes. I ordered some of their house shoes probably about two months ago. And maybe some of you listening, remember when I said I was going to order these house shoes? Update for you. They. They're fantastic. I wear them all the time. I wore them today. They're awesome to just wear around the house when it's like, I don't want to put on socks and shoes. I also don't want to just wear socks because our kids are really big into the Lego phase right now. And so we know what that's like. Parents, when you step on yay. Little Lego piece that makes you want to crumble and fall on the floor. And so it's much safer for me if I'm wearing these slippers. And actually they're not bad at all. I have gone to the grocery store in them. That's how easily crossover. You wouldn't even expect that in a house shoe, but that's how good they are. So if you are like me and you enjoy feeling good and your feet feeling good at the house, get you some house shoes from Cozy Earth. Cozyearth.com Jefferson use the code Jefferson for 20% off. That's cozyearth.com Jefferson Use the code for 20% off. And now let's keep going. So we've talked about the version of yourself. How do you know when you should outgrow something? We talked about people kind of being around your table. Are there things that you think because you've said this with me and I know you've talked about it as somebody who has adhd, do you Find that that affects your ability to. There are people out there who I know and I'm related to many of have adhd and they go, but, yeah, I have a really hard time with either conversation or. But I've never met anybody who songwrites as an artist. And do you find that that's help or a hindrance or how have you found a way to.

[Hunter Hayes]

I'd be willing to bet you have.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, I'm sure I have.

[Hunter Hayes]

This is the wild part. You know what I mean? So I learned a lot about my brain this year, and I'm in the process of learning more and the way that it works, and I think it was. It gave me permission to start seeing ways that I frustrate myself as I relate a lot of things to general aviation, because I want to get my pilot's license. And there's a lot of lessons in that. And, you know, some planes are capable of reaching a certain. Let's say, like a certain speed, but they really operate just somewhere else. So your expectation could be, well, I'll get from this point to this point, and this time it's like, well, there's also wind. Even if you're doing everything right, it's

[Jefferson]

also something called weather.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. There's so much out of your control, and you're just part of it. Yeah. Like, you've got a machine, and if you know how to operate it, great, you know, awesome. And every time you go up, you are. You are working with the wind. And I think that, like, understanding a little bit more. And again, very much in the middle of the process of understanding more about how my brain works, I've gone from being frustrated with certain ways that it works to, I wouldn't say loving all of it, but, like, certainly trying to honor it and recognize, okay, I'm not crazy. It really. It doesn't work that way. So what do I have to do? What do I have to change? What systems do I have to put in place?

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

What things do I have to just kind of honor long enough for me to go? No, I like the way that this works now. And I think some of the shifts that I've made this year, it's. Changes that I've made this year have allowed me to experience more flow so that I can trust myself and saying, I totally hear you. I know that that's the expectation that is on me right now. I can't. I won't be able to do that well. But if you trust me, let me guide you through it. And I say this very much as an artist. And I know that that's a very privileged place. And I do not take that for granted because I know that a lot of people are in a position where they're asked for something and they have to deliver, I think. And I'm trying to sort of connect the dots, but for me, one of the things that I put in place was just like, I totally hear you. I would love to do that. I can't do it that way. If this is the result you want, let me do this.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And. And make sure I give you what I know. I want to give you the best version of what I want to give you. And I'm trying to think of, like, a realistic.

[Jefferson]

Like, is that one of the shifts you've made of being able to say, I hear that.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And what I. What I hear you saying is what often I'll tell people who are disagreeing in conversation, meaning the goal's the same. We both want the best product. You have your perspective, I have mine.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And sometimes it's, I get there another way. Right. I'm. Yeah, I'm getting in the same place you are. I hear you. I just happen to get there a different way.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And naturally, that creates that curiosity of, okay, makes. What are you saying? Now, ultimately, there might be a position where one of you has a say of, I'm the final voice on what's happening. But when you're able to at least share perspectives, it seems to unlock things a little bit better. Has that been the case for you?

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. Well. And to be fair, I've used some of your language in some of these conversations, but I think the most applicable part of this that I can share is the trusting of myself. I can say, I, yes, I know that we both want this. I can't do it this way. I'm not going to be able to give you good results this way. But let me try it this way.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And let's just see what happens.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

Because I think often, sometimes, too, the thing that I'm learning is, like, the person that I'm working with or talking to about this, negotiating, let's say. And for me, it's often just about schedules and how I work because I wear so many hats. It's just like, yeah, you can do this, but, you know, but tomorrow it's like, I could, and it would just mean that I have to stop doing all these other things that I feel

[Jefferson]

like are potentially more important and often

[Hunter Hayes]

are and often are. And so sometimes it's just like I have to trust that not only am I doing what I know will allow me to succeed and accomplish the goal, but I also know that when I do, they'll see it as well. And maybe they won't, but the hope is they'll see, like, oh, okay, the process work better. Okay. Trust it. You know, and maybe they won't, but I. I will be happier with the thing that I gave. Does that make sense?

[Jefferson]

Yeah. No. Yeah. The whole thing. Yeah. I'm. I follow you. I follow you. When you are writing music and you're putting out things that you can tell. I mean, Evergreen Album is a perfect example of this. I think often you're saying it to yourself, but you're leaving room for the other person to see themselves in it as well. And, I mean, I can't imagine having a song out and, you know, somebody's tatted with some of the lyrics that you have. Like, it's just got to be in the most unreal thing.

[Hunter Hayes]

That's. That's the. My new metric of success.

[Jefferson]

Right. Yeah. How do you. How do you process the amount of exposure you've had? Very early on? Like, the question that comes to my mind is, do you think if you had had so much exposure as a. As a child, as a teen, that how that would have influenced you as an artist now? Is that something you can even imagine of? Like, you know, have I had the spotlight not been on me at such a young age or this pressure, responsibility at such a young age, it probably would have had this kind of positive effect. Or do you think it actually would have taken away from who you are now?

[Hunter Hayes]

I find questions of that nature to be very challenging to answer because I don't.

[Jefferson]

Then don't answer if you want.

[Hunter Hayes]

Well, I just, Like, I. I don't like. Yeah, sure. I can. I can tell you all the things that have come up in therapy because I started performing at 5, and I would not have operated the way that I did with the drive that I had at 19.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

Had I not brought those things with me, you know?

[Jefferson]

But you seem to be the type, too, that, like, even if you didn't make another dime do music, there's no stopping you making music like you. You would just continue to do it because that's. It's such an integral part of you. Because I can only imagine when you're. When you're listening to songs and you're driving, even driving here.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

You're constantly thinking of ideas and ways. And there are some people who hear words in color. Right. And there's Some people who hear music in color and the just brain goes about it a different way.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah, I watched. I actually watched the whole thing on that.

[Jefferson]

Did you?

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah, absolutely. Tell me. Well, I like when we were mixing a song on Evergreen, actually, I think it was. I think it was weight. I was having a hard time communicating. I was like, maybe this will make sense. And I drew out. What is it? Synesthesia. I did some research on that and then I wrote. Is that. Am I saying that right? I think so, yeah. Sounds or colors? Yeah, I actually made a really dumb looking drawing. There was a circle and it was like all of the instruments that were in the song had their own shape and color and place to tell them. Like where I wanted it in the mix up or down stereo field, left to right. And then the color corresponded with the part of the frequency spectrum that I wanted it to sit in. I absolutely think that way. The reason that I had such a hard time answering your question a minute ago is because I made my commitment to music before it was a commitment, before it was a job, before it was a. What are you doing for the rest of your life? Before it was at what next. I was in love with making music when I was 5, 6, 7. Thus, you know, I found the studio world when I was like 11, 12. And all of a sudden, oh, my God, there's a safe little greenhouse for me to make music in.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. You mean I can do this?

[Hunter Hayes]

There's a place where I can grow.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

And at my own pace, I can follow whatever pulls me along. I can write about anything and figure it out, learn how to write on my own. And then that gave me more confidence to put shows together, you know, to arrange parts for a band, to figure out what the flow of the show needs to be. And so because I fell in love with it before it was a job or before it was a decision, I've never had to make the decision. I make music. Does that make sense?

[Jefferson]

Yeah. No, it does.

[Hunter Hayes]

So that's why it's so challenging to go. Like, if you hadn't found it so early, what would you. Because I don't know that I would have had the confidence to say, this is what I'm doing for a living. There's a lot of reasons to say, like, this could also not work. But I've never believed that. I mean, one of my first team members was just like, I think the. And plenty of people say version of this, but, like, it was very, very much one of the reasons I believe you're going to Be a success is because you have no backup plan. Oh, yeah, so true. You know, and it's. But it just means that, like, to me, like I said, to sum it up, I fell in love with it before I had to figure out what to do with it. Does that make sense?

[Jefferson]

It does. What do you think the result would have been had you not interrupted what you had to two years ago to kind of take a pause and say, hold up, let me look at this differently. You went over to California, took a healthy break. I know you didn't stop working, but you need, you needed to, you needed some distance from something.

[Hunter Hayes]

A break from the patterns.

[Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Had you not taken a break from your patterns, the patterns that may have no longer been serving you in that, that way, what do you think the result would have been had you.

[Hunter Hayes]

Not one side of me says I would have taken a break at some point.

[Jefferson]

It was inevitable.

[Hunter Hayes]

I would have hit a breaking point.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, you would have hit a wall.

[Hunter Hayes]

If I hadn't created the space, the space would have created itself.

[Jefferson]

Okay.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know, whether that be through some version of, you know, what do they call it? Self sabotage or mental be.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

Or just like, or just not showing up, you know, getting opportunities and not being able to show up.

[Jefferson]

Well, it would have been on. It would have been not on your terms.

[Hunter Hayes]

It would have been on somebody else's terms. Not on my terms. Yeah. Which was never going to happen. Yeah. So. Or, or I would have another version of it could have been. I just like let go and gave up on a lot of things that I currently, luckily, thankfully still believe in. I would have created a version of the future where I was safer feeling what I was feeling. And that would have probably required disconnecting from a lot of the things that I really still care about and love doing. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's a, I don't know.

[Jefferson]

Well, sometimes that's okay to just say I don't know. Because I mean, you're here now.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

You know.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. For sure.

[Jefferson]

Do you find that right now you're, that you're content and that you're living that version that you wanted to live a few years ago?

[Hunter Hayes]

In so many ways, I'm living that version. And in so many ways I have so many things I want to grow on.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

There's so many things I want to improve upon. There's so many things that I, I, I want to just like, dance with a little bit, figure out how to improve.

[Jefferson]

How do you track those?

[Hunter Hayes]

Like, practically, I have no Idea.

[Jefferson]

Do you write. Are you a big journaler? Do you write stuff out?

[Hunter Hayes]

Yes. And you're very good at the yes

[Jefferson]

ands, by the way. I do like that.

[Hunter Hayes]

Well, I like. I. I journal a lot. It's chaotic, you know, that's good.

[Jefferson]

It's supposed to be.

[Hunter Hayes]

It.

[Jefferson]

Well, a lot of times I just doodle. Like, I just draw it out.

[Hunter Hayes]

Well, I need structure.

[Jefferson]

Okay.

[Hunter Hayes]

You know, so when I judge my journaling, it's like, well, I'm not. You know, I'm not consistent. It's like, well, no, you're not. And that's okay.

[Jefferson]

You know, I can tell you when the first time I started journaling, I would rip out pages because I didn't like my handwriting. Like, that's how bad that was. I get mad at, like, ah, I just. I screwed up this word, and now it looks really gross. And now I'm gonna have to either write through it or scratch it out, and then it would bother me really bad.

[Hunter Hayes]

Does that make.

[Jefferson]

Well, yeah. So you're not alone.

[Hunter Hayes]

That clicks in a lot of ways. Totally different, but clicks. Right. I journal. I also kind of think that a lot of my, like, expression or like, my version of journaling is. Is working on music. And that's true in production, for instance. You know, I think sometimes the image of recording a song, as we come into a place like this, we record and, you know, and it happens in a couple of, you know, takes. But for me, I sit with a song for hours, hundreds of hours, trying to learn what it's trying to tell me. So there's a part of it that is kind of accidentally therapeutic in that so much of what I love about production is I'll record a part on an acoustic guitar, and I'll just sit with it. It'll bother me because it's just. It feels too aggressive. It feels too angry. It doesn't feel soft or like. A great example is there's a song on. On. On. Well, there's around the sun on Evergreen.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, the last one.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. That was technically the first song that I finished for the album. And it. It takes a trip. The. The riff is played very. The riff is. The first version of the riff that you hear is actually heavily manipulated from the day that I wrote the song to show sometimes an idea doesn't feel the way that it's supposed to right away. And then as you go through the song, it's like the band starts to learn the riff and it's played more confidently, and all of a sudden it's on a 12 string guitar. And it's like, oh, that's the way it's supposed to be heard. And then an electric guitar kicks everybody out and plays the solo. And for me, that's communication. That's me communicating. Like, this is my process of learning this lesson. I wrote the song, I learned the song, and now I'm learning what the song wants me to know. Moving forward. And then towards the end, you know, there's like four different kick samples that come in. Yeah, there's a. There's a real drummer playing, but there's also like a lot of just energy. And I wanted it to feel like a dance song by the end of it.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

It's kind of subtle. That's the goal. But like. And even the bass part is not just like a bass part. It's like it's its own riff. Because I wanted the song to grow in its own confidence as it goes.

[Jefferson]

There we go.

[Hunter Hayes]

Right. So that was therapy for me. That was four days. Another thing I really am a big fan of is neurofeedback. I don't know how else to refer to it, but I've done a lot of that, and that's actually allowed me to put a lot of the lessons that I've learned from coaching or therapy.

[Jefferson]

Tell me what that is for people.

[Hunter Hayes]

It's neurofeedback. Neurofeedback. It sends. I'm gonna destroy my explanation.

[Jefferson]

Okay. We're just gonna admit that it's gonna butcher it, but we don't care.

[Hunter Hayes]

Um, but essentially, as patterns get formed in the brain, it's a way. It's a. It's a technology that's. That is approved to clear out the kind of like stuck sand kind of blast through and allow the brain to create its own new neural pathways.

[Jefferson]

Just a sandblast your brain.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. Sandblast the parts that you get stuck in. Yeah. So, like, a lot of people find it like life changing. Everything from, you know, addiction to PTSD to. I mean, all kinds of. I've. The stories are in.

[Jefferson]

But it's incredible.

[Hunter Hayes]

It's helped me tremendously. It's one of the, like, the things that if I'm taking a break from every modality, that's still the one thing that I'm pretty confident will help me move forward. So I had done a neural feedback session in the middle of writing that song, and then all of a sudden it just started to make sense and I started to spend more time with it. So I say all that to say, yeah, I think parts of parts of the way that I journal are musically right. Like, when I record an idea, I'm also translating how it feels to feel those lyrics.

[Jefferson]

That's why I said the very start, like, you write in a journalistic way, like, very much so that it's like you could have written all that out simply in your journal without any music to it. Because I think it resonates that way. Do you find that when you say, I'm listening for what the song wants to tell me?

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Do you think that's true for conversations too? Like, often after conversations happen, you kind of have to go, okay, what was that conversation telling me between these two humans? Aside from the part that I played in it? Aside from the fact that I played a part in it?

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Now, if I separated out from myself, what was that. What is that conversation trying to tell me? You find that to be true?

[Hunter Hayes]

So true. One of my goals this year was to sit down with mentors more often.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

Because I. I have the. The bad habit of saying, oh, well, they. They. They have more important things to do, you know, And I've been challenging myself with, like, reaching out to people and going like, hey, I want breakfast. I want to sit with you. Yeah. And one of the first ones that I. I did was beautiful because I. I was, like, in my car trying to pre pave and, you know, Virgo myself into a conversation where I was like, this is. What is my goal? What do I want from this?

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

And I just heard God just yell, just like, you need to chill out.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

You need to just listen.

[Jefferson]

You talk to God a lot.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. It's very non. I. I say it's unconventional. It's quite conversational.

[Jefferson]

I think he liked that.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. Because I, like, I'm strongest in my faith right now that I've ever been. Like, religion's a different conversation. I talked about a lot in sort of random moments, and I feel like I get spoken to a lot.

[Jefferson]

Yes.

[Hunter Hayes]

And in, like, learning how to write music, I think I've. I think that's so much of that is tapping into what's happening outside of here.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

Does that make sense?

[Jefferson]

Oh, it does, because that makes me get really excited. It makes me think of the. Just the whole idea of not just. What is this conversation trying to tell me, God? What are you trying to tell me? Like, what is exactly? When you talk about flow state, like, how do I know that I'm in the flow of all things around me? How do I know I'm connected in all things? So I think we kind of answered it right there of, yeah, conversation can absolutely be that way because it's, you know, when you're in the flow of conversation, when you're not. When the conversation's going well and when it's not for sure.

[Hunter Hayes]

And, like, I'm still learning how to be conversational, just like so much of my life is. Is songwriting. Right. There's a goal.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Hunter Hayes]

We rally around the goal and we get to. We finish the. The lyrics on the page in the most succinct way we can from the experiences that we have. But there is a goal. We're all doing that thing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we agree on it. Right. Like I said earlier, like, there's some rooms where the. The goal that I had is not what's going to happen, and that's fine. But we. We end up with a thing that we're going for. And I'm. I'm very much learning how conversations are. Just follow where it's going, you know, follow the flow. And my therapist talks a lot about white water rafting guides and just like the course of learning how to just go study the river and understand the river and like, keep everybody safe in the boat. But you're at. You're. You're going with the river.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, exactly. You're going.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah. And he sent me a whole, like, a whole, like, lesson book on that before we started the tour. Because being on tour is very much. You're in the. You're in the whitewater.

[Jefferson]

Like, you're halfway through right now, I think.

[Hunter Hayes]

Right. Well, we just wrapped the first sort of section of it.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Hunter Hayes]

And now we're kind of building out what the rest of it looks like.

[Jefferson]

That's pretty cool, man.

[Hunter Hayes]

Yeah, that.

[Jefferson]

That's awesome. I. So I grew up playing drums my whole life, and so usually when I'm listening to them. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so usually when I'm listening, I play guitar. I. I don't play the 30 plus like you. There's no way. Well, now that almost sounds like an unhealthy level. Like, I don't know if I could do that.

[Hunter Hayes]

I don't know.

[Jefferson]

I'm like, you got it. That's crazy. Yeah, Though I think, like, the Dobro would be pretty sick Slack. Yeah. Yeah, that would be pretty awesome. I think that's just because I've listened to a lot of Yoon Station with Allison Kraus. Like, that would have been. That have been it. But I played drums all growing up, and so whenever I listen to a lot of the stuff, of course like anybody who plays an instrument you listen for your favorite instrument and I have to say I liked the drums on the very first that you're self titled album and then I realized that you also play the drums. That was before afterwards. So I have to say from one drummer to another, that was pretty rad dude.

[Hunter Hayes]

Thank you.

[Jefferson]

I really enjoyed it.

[Hunter Hayes]

That was awesome.

[Jefferson]

Thank you man. Thanks for coming on the podcast Hunter. I really appreciate it man.

[Hunter Hayes]

Thanks for having me.

[Jefferson]

Thanks dude.

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